[Levi]

They guy is pretty fit too. 

All this talk about carbon vs steel vs Ti makes me think of that youtube video/skit about "performance". 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn29DvMITu4

[jackman]

Sure Pro riders have a choice.  One example is Team Garmin-Cervelo. In particular, Thor Hushovd rides Cervelo S3, R3SL, R3 and FM70.  Likewise,  Contact points like saddles, pedals, bars and other components like wheel sets.  Sure they have a choice.

Trek, Specialized, Giant, Scott makes lots of road bikes.  Pro riders can choose between all of them. Why not ride aluminum or Titanium if Carbon has all the advantages in racing. It is simply the best materials for whoever wants to go FAST!

They always have choices.  Pros and club racers alike.

Simply look around you, the fastest guys in your group rides what?  In my Group it is not Ti, Aluminum, steel or combination.  They use Carbon frame bikes.  Hence my point.   

Btw, running a tour is expensive that is why most small manufacturers like Cervelo teams up with Garmin. Other companies follow suit.

The Cervelo team can ride any bike they choose...as long as it's a Cervelo!   Pro riders choose from a list of bikes their team mandates.  They can pick among available models but no major bike company in the tour makes a race bike out of anything but CF.  Trek, Specialized, Cervelo, Felt, etc., make non-CF bikes but they are their lower end or entry level frames and are not suitable for racing.  This doesn't mean Ti or some of the new steel alloys aren't good choices, just that major bike manufacturers don't offer them. 

Regarding the fastest guys, it's not a good scientific measure.  The fastest guys in the world, pro riders, don't have to pay for their bikes and the companies who sponsor teams are all big and only have CF bikes as options for riders.  I guess if a rider wanted to ride a cheap aluminum low-end bike, he could technically do it but I wouldn't compare a Trek 1.2 to a Firefly custom ti bike. 

The bike choices of fastest guys in my group (or the groups we interact with are a mixed bag).  We ride with a group of racers from a nearby town and there are high-end and lower-end bikes of every material.  The fanciest bikes (often not riden by the fastest guys) are a completely custom Lynskey Helix (ti), a couple custom Serotta bikes (CF, Ti and steel) , some S-Works bikes including a Roubaix and a Tarmac (both CF), and a couple Madone bikes (CF), Willier Cento Uno (CF), Ridley Noah (CF), Pinerello (CF) and a CF Colnago.  The Lynskey guy and several Serotta guys, and the S-Works Roubaix guy are among the fastest.  The Colnago guy is the slowest (injuries and work committments have cut down on his training) but has a cool bike.

The fastest guys in the group (including guys who ride with us occasionally) would be fast on any bikes (assuming the fit was right).  A guy joined us a month ago with an old Trek bike (CF with aluminum lugs from the early 90's) with friction downtube shifters, and another guy joined us riding a Felt aluminum bike with early 105 shifters and heavy wheels.  Both guys were Cat3-4 racers and were very fast.  They ride modest bikes because they can't afford better ones.  Also, the Felt guy races crits and needs a stiff durable frame that is not expensive to replace in a crash. 

Another fastest guy in my group rides an old Giant aluminum bike with CF stays.  It's got a mixture of 105, heavy Shimano wheels and a MTB rear dr (XT) because he rides a triple with a 28 on the back.  He does a lot of hill rides and needs the bail-out gear.  I"m sure he'd be faster on a lightweight CF bike but I think he likes the idea of beating younger riders on fancy bikes while riding a 19-20lb bike. 

Again, I'm not saying CF is NOT the most high-tech material available.  It is, without a doubt.  It's also the lightest and stiffest material, two attributes favored by professional riders.  I'm just saying it is not the only material of choice for riders and racers who want a fast, comfortable bike.   In terms of $/performance, it's hard to beat a good CF bike but there are several options that are pretty tempting to me at least...

Cheers,

J

[jackman]

Hey Josh, riding in a group is fun. Keeping up with the fast guys makes you even fitter. You just have to play it smart. Work hard or work smart! 

Your twitchiness in high speed can be caused by many factors.  One of them is your stem and body position.  CAAD9 has good geometry. You may also need to relax in the saddle.  Now I am just guessing.  

Spending extra on a good bike fit is worth it in the long run.

Josh - what  Levi said!  Your CAAD9 is a well regarded frame among racers (with good resale if you decide to sell it!) and should handle well enough to feel stable at 30+ mph.  Please note, CAAD9 is also a very aggressive geometry with short wheelbase.  This is good if you are racing a crit (short fast races) but can feel twitchy compared to a bike with relaxed geometry (slack head and seat tube angle, shorter top tube, longer wheelbase).  This is why I chose a bike with relaxed geometry.  Below is a comparison of a Cannondale CAAD9 versus a Synapse from Cannondale (relaxed geo bike).  Stage-racing bikes tend to have a longer wheelbase and they feel much more stable (IMO) at higher speeds.  Plus, you don't "bob" as much when you climb out of the saddle.   I copied the info below from another site when I was thinking about buying a CAAD9:   

CAAD9 Versus Synapse:
Head Tube Angle: 73.5 / 73.0
Chainstay Length: 40.5 / 41.5
Wheelbase: 99.6 / 102.0
Head Tube Length: 17.5 / 20.0

These geometry differences might explain why you feel your CAAD is twitchy on fast downhills.  The Synapse has a longer chainstay and wheelbase.  Short wheelbase feels "faster" but this isn't necessarily a good thing for a stage racer or recreational rider.  It's like taking a Ferrari on a long highway trip.  The razor sharp steering and handling you love on short courses could be tiring on longer rides.  Also, the head tube angle and longer head tube on the relaxed geometry bike give you a more upright riding position which is generally more comfortable for riders on longer rides. 

There is a good reason every bike company now offers a high performance bike with relaxed geometry (Trek H2&3, Specialized Roubaix, Cervelo RS, Cannondale Synapse, etc.).  They all call it something different (Endurance Geometry, Performance Geometry, etc.) but they are basically bikes designed for average recreational riders who don't feel comfortable on a bike with aggresive geometry.  These bikes have shorter top tubes, longer head tubes, longer wheelbase, slack head and seat tube angles, etc.  They handle well but are not twitchy, and you don't need a three inch stack of spacers on the stem to get a comfortable fit.   

Along with bike choice, fit is the most important aspect of cycling, IMO.  It's worth spending a few bucks to get a pro fit if you plan to ride long distances or if you want to get maximum performance out of your bike.  A good fitter can help determine if your bike is the correct size and if you have the proper bars, saddle, stem, and position of each of these things. 

[BikeWNC]

I have three road bikes and just don't ride my IF Ti much anymore for one reason or another.  If anyone is looking for a large frame, 61cm/60TT let me know.  Same for my Steel IF hardtail mtb. 

I'll probably regret selling my Ti bike in the long run but right now it's just sitting around unused.  It's too nice a bike to just lean against the wall!

[jackman]

I have three road bikes and just don't ride my IF Ti much anymore for one reason or another.  If anyone is looking for a large frame, 61cm/60TT let me know.  Same for my Steel IF hardtail mtb. 

I'll probably regret selling my Ti bike in the long run but right now it's just sitting around unused.  It's too nice a bike to just lean against the wall!

Hey, you are helping to make Levi's point and refuting mine!   

Just kidding.  I wish you weren't so tall or I would be excited about that bike.  Hopefully somone on AC can buy it from you.  I love IF bikes, although I've never actually riden one that was the proper size and setup for me.  Yours is beautiful.

What is your primary ride these days?  I seem to recall a Specialized Roubaix or Tarmac but could be wrong. 

[BikeWNC]

I have a SWorks Roubaix Di2 and a Parlee Z4.  They are setup with different gearing so each has its purpose.  The Z4 is my climbing bike while the Roubaix is more of an all arounder. 

[jackman]

I have a SWorks Roubaix Di2 and a Parlee Z4.  They are setup with different gearing so each has its purpose.  The Z4 is my climbing bike while the Roubaix is more of an all arounder.

Wow!  You aren't messing around.  Two bikes that are equally drool-worthy.  I hear the  Ultegra electronic kit is coming out and is going to be priced reasonably.  I've tested the Di2 on an S-works Tarmac and it was amazing.  I was very negative on the idea until I tried it.  I'm sold (on everything but the price) of Di2. 

You have great taste in bikes.  My neighbor loves his S-works Roubaix.  He's got Zipp 404 with Powertap and Ultegra.  I am a sucker for those new matte finishes.  There is a Scott Addict in my group, a new one with matte black and gray paint.  I usually only see the rear of the bike because the guy hangs in the front of the pack (me, not so much).   

[LadyDog]

Andy,
Knew you had the Sworks, when did you get the Z4?  Thoughts?

Jack does not know it yet, but I am going to get him to buy my Meivici.  Then I may look at a Z5. 

I agree, the worst thing about DI2 is the cost.  Killer group.

I'll straddle the fence a bit.  Probably 6 or 7 of the top 10 frames I have been on are carbon.  But I'd take the Sachs, Vanilla, Kirk, or Holland I have ridden over many other carbon frames.  Though I guess the Holland was 50/50 since it was an Exogrid.  Then again, I have not been on everything and would not bet against frames made by Baum, Peg, etc. being right up with the best of them.

If I could only afford 1 bike, I may choose against carbon for repair/durability issues alone.
 

[Levi]

Parlee makes very nice lightweight bikes w/ internal DI2 cabling.   

[BikeWNC]

Andy,
Knew you had the Sworks, when did you get the Z4?  Thoughts?

Jack does not know it yet, but I am going to get him to buy my Meivici.  Then I may look at a Z5. 

I agree, the worst thing about DI2 is the cost.  Killer group.

I'll straddle the fence a bit.  Probably 6 or 7 of the top 10 frames I have been on are carbon.  But I'd take the Sachs, Vanilla, or Holland I have ridden over many other carbon frames.

If I could only afford 1 bike, I may choose against carbon for repair/durability issues alone.

The Z4 is a nice ride.  Parlee is known for making a smooth ride but it also has great feel.  The Z5 and the new Z5sl and the SLi improve on the Z4.  They add a BB30 BB, tapered HT and lighter tubing.  I'd like to have a Z5sl.

My Z4 isn't quite as stiff/efficient as a Tarmac SL3 sworks but I think it has a better road feel.  The Z5sl would be closer but I still think the Tarmac is the stiffest bike out there among the more common frames.  Stiffness isn't every thing though.  If I were buying a Parlee today, I'd get a version of the Z5 over the Z4 for the tangible improvements. 

[Levi]

Glad that everyone agreed about Carbon frames.

I recently upgraded my bearings to Cermic bearings. They are easy to do if you have the correct tools.  My favorite one is this hammer type.  I can invest on the nice bearing press but so far collet and hammer works.

[jackman]

Levi,
Ceramic bearings?  What's next cryo?  Stop falling for every fad...

You know I'm kidding.    I went for a 35 mile ride last night and realized midway through that I'm a slow, fat, slug who needs to buckle down and get serious about training, or find another group of fat slow slugs to ride with.  Got passed by an older guy (didn't check ID but he looked older) on an old Tri-bike during last night's ride, and could not keep up with my group for most of the ride.  The old guy had leather skin and an ancient Trek steel bike with old-school aero bars (like Lemond) and friction shifters.  This only served to rub salt in the wound...   In fairness, he was pretty fit and moving at a great pace.  I already rode a hard 30 miles or so when this happened but suspect he could have beat me with fresh legs.  He was one fast leathery dude.

Levi, please take pictures of the bearing installation if you can.  If you like them, I look forward to your recommendations! 

Lastly, I decided that even if I buy a new bike (Ladydog's Serotta perhaps?), I'm keeping my Trek (carbon fiber) Pilot.  We rode chip and seal roads last night for a long stretch and my Pilot was as comfy as an old couch.  The frame might be a bit flexy during 1000+watt sprints but I'll take it any time on bad pavement.  The long wheelbase also tracks like it's on rails.  Handling is not the best because of the high BB and upright riding position (my setup is relatively neutral) but I've done 45mph downhill rides with complete confidence. 

Oh, one more thing.  Bought this pump yesterday.  My friend has one and I really like it (looks cool, works well, lightweight, etc.) and CC has 15% off:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-accessories/2011-Lezyne-Road-Drive-Pump-9057.47.1.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Google%2BBase&utm_campaign=Datafeed

 

[Levi]

I had a thread on off-road with pictures of the whole bearing installation.  You may have to dig them up. 

I love all Lezyne pumps.  I currently use their aluminum floor pump, mtb pumb and the road-drive but in silver.  Unfortunately, I haven't used the Road Drive in real world situation.  Knock on wood.    They are a thing of beauty.

[viggen]

I have the same Lezyne pump on my Bottecchia.  I have a Specialized Airtool pump on my Fuji that looks exactly like this one except the shell is carbon instead of aluminum.

[jackman]

Thanks guys.  I bought the exact same pump Levi has.  Next thing you know, I'll be rolling up in a sweet Cervelo, with Zipps and DA!

I used the pump a few months ago (borrowed from neighbor during ride when I had a flat) and was very impressed.  I've owned MTB frame pumps but never found one I liked on my road bike, until now.  The little Lezyne is very cool looking and I love the way it works.   

By the way, I hear electronic Ultegra is coming out.  As you guys know, I'm always a sceptic, especially when it comes to radical new and expensive products.  I never stated it on this forum but recall my negative reaction when I first read about Di2.  It seemed like a solution to a problem that didn't exist, and an expensive one at that.  This was my opinion, until I tried it. 

Wow!  My opinion changed about ten seconds into my first ride, in the parking lot of a local bike shop.  Di2 was really nice and I like everything except the price.  If electronic Ultegra is as good as Di2, at a much lower price (not sure about SRP), Shimano could have a real winner. 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE my SRAM Red group.  It's the crispest, most intuitive shifting you can imagine.  The levers and shifters are fully adjustable if you have smaller hands or if you like shifting from the drops.  Shifting from the drops is super easy.  Shifting in general is as good as it gets, IMO.  I would take Red any day over standard 7900 DuraAce or anything from Shimano, Di2 is another story...

I do like Shimano cassettes and the Ultegra on my bike isn't going anywhere for a while.  Inexpensive, quiet, great shifting, lightweight, etc.  Shimano makes great cassettes!

[viggen]

Is upgrading to Di2 like going from stick shift to paddle shift? 

[jackman]

Is upgrading to Di2 like going from stick shift to paddle shift?

That's a pretty good comparison.  Please note, I only tested it a couple times in a parking lot (same bike both times, Specialized Tarmac S-works), but it was cool.  We have some people on this board with much more experience.  Please note, you can get a really nice complete bike with great components for the price of Di2!  Ultegra electronic might appeal to people who lack super-deep pockets.

If you are looking to upgrade groupsets, and don't have $4,500 for the complete Di2 set (I think that's what they cost), SRAM Apex is awesome.  I am not crazy about the crank but the shifting and overall feel is much better than 105 and I think it's  cheaper.  If I was buying a new bike and wanted to spend a bit more, I'd get SRAM Force group but would upgrade to Red shifters. 

[LadyDog]

Not so fast Levi about everybody agreeing carbon is king.   

Honestly, if I had the desirable choice to pick between say a Crumpton, Parlee, Sachs, or a Vanilla(could insert a few more in here), I'm not so sure what I would end up on.

Agree the Lezyne pumps, whether floor or for the frame are a great way to go.

For the most part I typically hover around the "mid" groups.  Not to say that I haven't owned Dura Ace or Record, but generally felt the Chorus, Centaur, Rival, Ultegra of the worlds were the most cost effective solution.  Imo, rather spend my money into better ways like a nicer frame or better wheels.  That being said, if Di2 was somewhat affordable, it would be on my bike.  I was Jack in that it was a solution for a problem that did not exist, but damn is it nice when have had the chance to put a few miles on it.  Front shifting is flawless.

[Levi]

I am glad that we agreed to disagree.   

Perhaps, my background is racing.  My group who joins races every week (CAT1 and CAT2) would agree.  That is not to bring a knife to a gun fight.  Like wheels, aerodynamic frames do have an advantage but that is only if you go above 25-35mph.  Speeds I often realize in our group trainings.
To each his own.   

Not so fast Levi about everybody agreeing carbon is king.   

Honestly, if I had the desirable choice to pick between say a Crumpton, Parlee, Sachs, or a Vanilla(could insert a few more in here), I'm not so sure what I would end up on.

Agree the Lezyne pumps, whether floor or for the frame are a great way to go.

For the most part I typically hover around the "mid" groups.  Not to say that I haven't owned Dura Ace or Record, but generally felt the Chorus, Centaur, Rival, Ultegra of the worlds were the most cost effective solution.  Imo, rather spend my money into better ways like a nicer frame or better wheels.  That being said, if Di2 was somewhat affordable, it would be on my bike.  I was Jack in that it was a solution for a problem that did not exist, but damn is it nice when have had the chance to put a few miles on it.  Front shifting is flawless.

[LadyDog]

Agree to disagree, I'm fine with that Levi.  Though not sure I am actually disagreeing with you.   

Carbon is great.  Would put my carbon bike(s) up against any in the world, period.

Riddle me this though.  If you could get a steel frame to say within a 1/2 - 3/4 lb of carbon, why would a rider of equal caliber not do as well on the steel frame?  Please think about Sean Kelly before telling me stiffness is the be all.  Sorry just dated myself as a former Cat 1 racer during that time.

I'm certainly not trying to pick an fight here, just curious for one's thoughts.  Sorry comes natural being a "psych" major.  And if we agree to disagree, I'm fine with that too.  It is what makes the world go around, opinions.  Everybody is their own movie critic.  For example I think the Clayton Bros stink.  Maybe I am just still made at you I was not invited to the NYAR in 10'.   

I love your Cervelo.  You have put together a top notch build and I have no doubt you can ride me into the ground right now whether I am on a carbon, steel, or carbon frame. Though watch out, if I pull out my Stingray you are dead meat.

Thanks for the tim and peace Levi.