AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Tube-o-phile Circle => Topic started by: SoundSound on 12 May 2017, 02:58 pm
-
Dear Audiophiles! :)
I am looking for a musical power amplifier (up to 3K used :oops:) to work nicely with my current components: Primare PRE30 preamplifier and Monitor Audio RS6 speakers.
PASS Labs XA30.5 came highly recommended by many of the Solid State experts, and I am wondering if Tube-o-phile community could please suggest any viable alternatives! :scratch:
Please chime in! :)
-
Efficiency of speakers, how loud do you listen, how big is your room?
Shakey
-
Speakers: Description: Two-way, ported, bass-reflex loudspeaker. Drive-units: 25mm Gold Dome C-CAM tweeter, 6" C-CAM-cone bass/midrange unit, 6" C-CAM-cone woofer. Crossover frequency: 3kHz. Frequency range: 38Hz–30kHz. Sensitivity: 91dB/W/m. Nominal impedance: 6 ohms. Power handling: 120W RMS.
Dimensions: 33½" (850mm) H by 7¼" (185mm) W by 97/8" (250mm) D. Weight: 40 lbs (18.2kg) shipping.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-rs6-loudspeaker-specifications#sOpwWl2vDZeFsRKp.99
Preamp is SS.
-
Thank you very kindly! :)
My "cave" is only 15x15x9 and I am not listening at high volumes, probably, at about 75 - 85 dB SPL.
-
With the information stated, I would go for the used Music Reference RM9 II that is listed on Audiogon right now for 2300.00. Hard to do better than that for a 100 watt tube amp.
Shakey
-
I think many folks would agree with the idea that a SS amp pairs better with a SS preamp (or is it SS pre pairs better with SS amp?). :scratch: Of course, that isn't a hard and fast rule.
I started out all SS. Then, I got a hybrid amp followed by a tube preamp (not the one I have now), and I'm now seriously considering a tube amp, but that can wait until I decide on my next speakers. I'm babbling....
Expect several folks to chime in on this. Enjoy your journey.
Michael
-
I think many folks would agree with the idea that a SS amp pairs better with a SS preamp (or is it SS pre pairs better with SS amp?). :scratch: Of course, that isn't a hard and fast rule.
I started out all SS. Then, I got a hybrid amp followed by a tube preamp (not the one I have now), and I'm now seriously considering a tube amp, but that can wait until I decide on my next speakers. I'm babbling....
Expect several folks to chime in on this. Enjoy your journey.
Michael
I don't agree that a SS preamp pairs better with a SS amp vs a tube preamp and SS amp. You just need to make sure that there is not an impedance mismatch. I love the sound of a tube pre and SS amp. My BAT preamp sounds much better with my Pass amp then when I used a SS Pass preamp with the amp. I have tried other tube pre's with my SS amps and loved the sound. When using different brands of Pre's and amps it is always a crap shoot when it comes to sound and system synergy.
-
Relatively small woofers and medium sensitivity won't need a lot of power but SET amps would be too low powered. Parallel SE is probably out too. So you are looking at push pull triodes or others. Then you have to think about ultralinear or not. Knowing different classes will give you only a general idea of what sound you will get but that's like knowing what prime cut is for beef -- you get certain amount of marbling and thus get an idea of texture but the flavor can be all over the map. Output irons (usually), wires and parts, topology, power supply and implementation as well as your choice of tubes will determine the final sound. The bottom line is you have to try to be sure. Tubes generally give you more robust or bloomy texture but also add noise. The lower end can be looser too due to lower damping power. Add biasing and tubes are certainly higher maintenance. Still, I use tube amps because I can't give up the tonal texture. Good luck.
-
If you want to go the tube route for an amp, you should keep in mind that most tube gear is single ended with the exception of a few companies, with BAT (Balance Audio Technology) being one of them.
They are a few good tube amps for sale on Audiogon like an Audio Research VS 115 and 110, Conrad Johnson Classic 60se, Primaluna DiaLogue 7 to name a few.
My personal advice, stick with the Pass XA30 and don't give it one after thought. If you don't like it, you can always sell it. Pass gear sells rather quickly due to their reputation and build quality. You can always pair it with a tube preamp, tube DAC, and tube phono preamp if you want a little bit of tube sound.
-
If you want to go the tube route for an amp, you should keep in mind that most tube gear is single ended with the exception of a few companies,
Methinks you got that backwards. Actually most companies make push pull amps and the minority are SET.
Think
cj
BAT
audio research
prima luna
Quicksilver
Cary
VTL
Manley
McIntosh
Granite Audio
Rogue
While some of the above do have single ended offerings, most of their inventory is NOT SET.
Shakey
-
I think he meant single-ended v balanced, as in connection topology.
Not singled-ended v push-pull, in tube topology
-
A few suggestions within your budget -
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vac-pa-90-monoblocks-w-separate-power-supplies-2017-05-09-amplifiers-08057-moorestown-nj (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vac-pa-90-monoblocks-w-separate-power-supplies-2017-05-09-amplifiers-08057-moorestown-nj)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-cary-audio-design-cad-120s-mkii-silver-2017-05-10-amplifiers-96814-honolulu-hi (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-cary-audio-design-cad-120s-mkii-silver-2017-05-10-amplifiers-96814-honolulu-hi)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-sonic-frontiers-power-1-with-kt-120-tubes-price-drop-5-2-17-2017-05-05-amplifiers-48239-redford-mi (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-sonic-frontiers-power-1-with-kt-120-tubes-price-drop-5-2-17-2017-05-05-amplifiers-48239-redford-mi)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-music-reference-rm-9-mkii-this-is-the-tube-amp-that-you-are-looking-for-2017-04-29-amplifiers-35806-huntsville-al (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-music-reference-rm-9-mkii-this-is-the-tube-amp-that-you-are-looking-for-2017-04-29-amplifiers-35806-huntsville-al)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vac-pa100-100-with-phi-upgrade-2017-04-25-amplifiers-32223-jacksonville-fl (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vac-pa100-100-with-phi-upgrade-2017-04-25-amplifiers-32223-jacksonville-fl)
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649350801-rogue-audio-st100-power-amplifier-in-silver/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649350801-rogue-audio-st100-power-amplifier-in-silver/)
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649343349-music-reference-rm9-mk2-as-new-refurbished-amp-upgraded-by-roger-with-warranty/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649343349-music-reference-rm9-mk2-as-new-refurbished-amp-upgraded-by-roger-with-warranty/)
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649340658-smooth-amp-musical-rogue-audio-stereo-90-fully-serviced-super-magnum-upgrade/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649340658-smooth-amp-musical-rogue-audio-stereo-90-fully-serviced-super-magnum-upgrade/)
Also you might consider an integrated -
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-ii-black-2017-05-11-integrateds-32459-santa-rosa-beach-fl (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-ii-black-2017-05-11-integrateds-32459-santa-rosa-beach-fl)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vpi-industries-299d-limited-edition-tube-integrated-amp-2017-05-05-integrateds-14580-webster-ny (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vpi-industries-299d-limited-edition-tube-integrated-amp-2017-05-05-integrateds-14580-webster-ny)
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649249387-vincent-k35-tube-integrated-amp-in-silver-110v-brand-new-in-factory-sealed-box/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649249387-vincent-k35-tube-integrated-amp-in-silver-110v-brand-new-in-factory-sealed-box/)
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649296630-jolida-3502s-upgraded-integrated-amp/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649296630-jolida-3502s-upgraded-integrated-amp/)
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649223067-jolida-fusion-801-integrated-tube-amp-new/ (http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649223067-jolida-fusion-801-integrated-tube-amp-new/)
Have fun!
-
I think he meant single-ended v balanced, as in connection topology.
Not singled-ended v push-pull, in tube topology
Correct, most tube gear uses RCA vs XLR interconnects. The OP in another post stated he wanted Balanced Inputs and a budget of around $3K.
-
Thank you all very much! What a helpful bunch you guys are!
I must confess I am a total newbie in everything tube-related. For example, what are you, @woodsyi, talking about: SET, parallel SE, triode, ultralinear, etc.? Trying to educate myself, but it is all Greek to me yet... You also mentioned something VERY important in my book: "The lower end can be looser too due to lower damping power". Would you agree such behaviour is more or less typical for tubed amps?
Could you, dear Audiophiles, please give me your top three choices of power amps (up to 3K used) suitable for my speakers? I checked all the references provided and am just drowning: Primaluna DiaLogue 7 (2.5K only, but made in China?!), Audio Research VS 115 (state of art, positively!), Cary Audio Design CAD-120s mkII Silver (with balanced inputs!), etc. I am totally and completely lost... Sorry...
If I go with Pass Labs XA30.5, as was kindly suggested by @I.Greyhound Fan, what balanced preamp would you recommend me to pair it with, please?
-
My top 2 are the Pass #1, ARC #2. If you get the Pass, consider a Pass XP-10 or X-1 preamp, a BAT VK-32se, 33se, 52se or an ARC LS-27, Parasound JC-2 but these will cost $3000 and up used. Cary makes some nice preamps like the SLP-05. You are just going to have to bite the bullet and see what you like. There are several of these preamps for sale on audiogon.
For SS preamps, I would put them in this order- XP-10, Parasound JC2 (both the JC2 and XP-10 are interchangeable but for system synergy with the pass amp I give the nod to the XP-10, Pass X-1 a distant third.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings?filter_category_id%5B%5D=31&filter_category_id%5B%5D=31&filter_category_id%5B%5D=46&filter_category_id%5B%5D=46&filter_category_id%5B%5D=46&items_per_page=50&listing_types_auctions=1&listing_types_classifieds=1&location_filter_radius=25&max_condition=11&min_condition=1&no_listing_types_auctions=false&no_listing_types_classifieds=false&order_by=current_price+ASC&page=3
Why do you want a balanced system? It really makes no difference at all. I run a fully balanced system because all my gear including my DAC is balanced but when I ran it with the single ended inputs there was no difference on sound. Balanced or XLR interconnects cost more than their single ended counter parts.
Here is a review of a Pass Labs system with an XP-10 preamp and an XA-60.5 amp similar to the XA-30.5
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0712/pass_labs_xp_10_xa_60_5.htm
I think that you are over thinking things. Get the Pass and skip the tubes as they can be a source of a Headache when one starts to go bad.
-
I think many folks would agree with the idea that a SS amp pairs better with a SS preamp (or is it SS pre pairs better with SS amp?). :scratch:
???? ....ahhhh, it's the same thing, your point ??
-
My "cave" is only 15x15x9...
Depending on the tube amp, your "cave" may become a sauna in the summer.
-
???? ....ahhhh, it's the same thing, your point ??
Twitch,
My apologies. I was trying to be humorous. No point - just light hearted humor. :oops:
-
I'd suggest changing your priorities. Buying a $3K amp to mate with your current your speakers is putting the cart before the horse.
-
Disagree. Those MA speakers actually respond quite well to much higher-end gear ahead of them.
-
Dear Audiophiles! :)
I am looking for a musical power amplifier (up to 3K used :oops:) to work nicely with my current components: Primare PRE30 preamplifier and Monitor Audio RS6 speakers.
PASS Labs XA30.5 came highly recommended by many of the Solid State experts, and I am wondering if Tube-o-phile community could please suggest any viable alternatives! :scratch:
Please chime in! :)
Why keep an SS preamp? or use it w/a tube power amp?
When you can use a integrated tube amp.
(http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/electronics/primare/preamplifier/pre30-1b-primare.jpg)
I suggest you sold this SS pre and put the cash on a better tube amp.
With 91dB you will need around 20W which means a PP amp and PrimaLuna or something exotic as 6C33 or GM70 amp, they are Single Ended and have volume control to CD player:
http://www.had-audiolab.com/products/amplifiers/integrated-and-power
-
Twitch,
My apologies. I was trying to be humorous. No point - just light hearted humor. :oops:
LOL, no apologies needed, rather my dim witted ability to comprehend !
-
Depending on the tube amp, your "cave" may become a sauna in the summer.
agreed, thus my use of my Rogue M180 mono blocks in cooler months and my Plinius SA102 in warmer, although when biased completely into Class A operation the Plinny does get pretty warm !
to the Op, given your budget either of my amp choices could be had (used) within your budget
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162231)
-
Thank you all very kindly for your most appreciated help! :)
@WGH and @I.Greyhound Fan noted, "Depending on the tube amp, your "cave" may become a sauna in the summer" and "Get the Pass and skip the tubes as they can be a source of a Headache when one starts to go bad".
Also earlier @woodsyi mentioned something VERY important in my book: "The lower end can be looser too due to lower damping power". :scratch:
I think Pass Labs XA30.5 will be a good start for my journey. :)
Would you recommend me a power cable other than stock, please? :scratch:
What balanced interconnects would you consider suitable for connecting my preamp and XA30.5? :scratch:
-
For some, the XA30.5 could be the end of an audio journey. It's a REALLY good all around amp. Tough to beat in any significant way without also spending significantly more. You could easily upgrade around it with little chance of it ever being the "weak link" in the chain (depending on speaker choice and/or if you move your cave to a giant music Hall, but even then the 30.5 will hold it's ground as it has quite a bit of current).
-
Good choice on the Pass. As R.Davidson pointed out, the amp can become the center piece of your system for years to come as it is that good.
For XLR cables, consider Belden 8402. I use a pair of them and they sound better than my Cardas Parsec and Audioquest Columbia which both cost $350 or more. The Belden 8402 cost less than $100pr.
https://btpa.com/IC8402XLR-XX.html
or since you live in Canada, you can buy them here for a bit more for Cryo treated cables. ( don't make a big deal about cryo treated, I am not a big believer that it makes much of a difference)
http://www.takefiveaudio.com/categories/219-xlr-interconnect
Skip the after market PC. Nelson Pass in his manual says they won't change the sound in his amp and I believe him but others may disagree. The most bang for the buck will be XLR's. Get the amp, live with it and then experiment with PC's. Put the money to a good preamp.
-
I'm a fan of Zenwave, contact Dave to find out if these D3 Interconnect Cables with Furutech 700 Series XLR Plugs are still available for $350 (retail $799)
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128753.msg1359761#msg1359761 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128753.msg1359761#msg1359761)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Demo%20Cables/3-DemoCables003_zps19be07ab.jpg)
-
Zen Wave cables are the real deal. ULTRA high quality and sanely priced. Dave is a great dude, too. Those D3's are a great recommendation and a huge bargain.
-
Thank you all very, very much indeed for all your most appreciated help! :D
Expecting a delivery of my XA30.5 in about 10 days: Customs and Border agency takes its sweet time...
Now I need to get a pair of XLR interconnects: following @I.Greyhound Fan's recommendation, will order from TakeFiveAudio (finally, a Canadian company I can order from to avoid all this cross-border hustle). Do you know if this particular type of cable, Belden 8402, flexible enough to be routed between the components easily? :scratch:
@WGH, I wish I could afford Zenwave, but $350 for 1m cable is way too much for me... :oops:
I must confess I am not very good with the computers... Could you guys, please, help me to find Canadian company I can order a block of solid wood to place XA30.5 onto (similar to what @twitch54 is using for his Rogue M180 mono blocks)? :scratch:
-
The Belden cable is flexible. You will be pleased with it. It clearly outperformed my expensive Cardas Parsecs and AQ Columbia 72v DBS cables which sound very good. Of course, things sound different in different systems. But for $90 for a pair, if you don't like them, you can sell them.
For an amp stand, you can always use a block of Granite, Marble or make your own out of wood.
-
Try these on Ebay.ca. All Canadian sellers.
http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=butcher%20block&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
-
On the butcher block you want maple over other woods.
The Neotech NEI-3004 cables are the ones to get, IMHO.
Here is another Canadian cable company that has very high quality products.
http://audiosensibility.com/blog/ (http://audiosensibility.com/blog/)
-
Thank you all, as always! :)
@JakeJ Could you please elaborate a bit on your recommendation "On the butcher block you want maple over other woods." :scratch:
As @RDavidson noted "... the XA30.5 could be the end of an audio journey." I sincerely hope it will be for me! :)
Do guys see any potential problems using my Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable terminated in Banana plugs with XA30.5? Should I change my speaker cable, please? :scratch:
@twitch54 What preamp are you using with your Plinius SA102, please? Looks like LS27 from Audio Research... Are you happy with the sound when your power amp is in class A? :scratch:
As @I.Greyhound Fan kindly noted regarding preamps, "My top 2 are the Pass #1, ARC #2. If you get the Pass, consider a Pass XP-10 or X-1 preamp, a BAT VK-32se, 33se, 52se or an ARC LS-27, Parasound JC-2 but these will cost $3000 and up used. Cary makes some nice preamps like the SLP-05...
For SS preamps, I would put them in this order- XP-10, Parasound JC2 (both the JC2 and XP-10 are interchangeable but for system synergy with the pass amp I give the nod to the XP-10..." :)
Here comes the eternal question regarding system synergy between SS/Tube preamp and SS power amp working in class A... Which way to go with the preamp: SS or Tube? :scratch:
-
I love the sound of the ARC LS-27. I like tubes in a preamp and SS amp. If you go with the Pass, get the XP-10 not the X1. The LS 27 is a fantastic preamp. It was high on my list when I was looking for a tube preamp. I ended up with a BAT instead. Prices on the LS 27 have dropped because of the newer version.
You will have to decide for yourself. You won't be lacking if you go with a Pass XP-10 due to system synergy. Just remember, if you buy used with high end gear, you can always turn around and sell it for basically what you paid for it minus shipping costs or Pay Pal fee's for the most part.
-
Do guys see any potential problems using my Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable terminated in Banana plugs with XA30.5? Should I change my speaker cable, please? :scratch:
Highly recommend Cerious technologies Graphene Extreme SC's.
-
The general consensus on maple is that it is best for platforms and bases because the grain is finer and tighter therefore less transfer of vibration. Plus it is readily available and is less expensive than the exotic woods. Peter Walker likes it best and he does know a thing or two when it comes to turntables.
-
"Peter Walker likes it best and he does know a thing or two when it comes to turntables." :scratch:
Not saying he didn't know much about turntables, but I think he was more admired for the electrostatic speakers and electronics he designed.
-
I simply cannot thank you guys enough for all your most appreciated help and patience answering all my silly questions! :)
Here comes another one… Sorry… :oops:
Should I plug the XA30.5 directly into the wall or employ something like ultra-expensive Furman SPR-20I Voltage Regulator for better sonic results, please? :scratch:
Some argue power conditioners may “limit power supply” to high-current amplifier and suggest getting an isolation transformer, for example, 1.8KVA Topaz 91018-32T Line Noise Suppressing Ultra-Isolator, with extremely low inter-winding capacitance (.005pf), instead of expensive power conditioner… :scratch:
I am totally and completely lost. Please help! :oops:
-
Just get a good surge suppressor like a Brick Wall, Zero Surge or Surgex
https://www.brickwall.com/collections/surge-protectors-home-theater-hdtv
https://zerosurge.com/plug-in-products-solutions/
http://espsurgex.com/product/standalone/
Or a Cheaper Tripp lite Iso Bar
https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Protector-INSURANCE-ISOBAR4ULTRA/dp/B0000513O4/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1495330895&sr=8-4&keywords=B0000513US+%7C+B00006B81D+%7C+B000UD4O8Q+%7C+B00005125L+%7C+B0000511U7+%7C+B0000513O4
-
I simply cannot thank you guys enough for all your most appreciated help and patience answering all my silly questions! :)
Here comes another one… Sorry… :oops:
Should I plug the XA30.5 directly into the wall or employ something like ultra-expensive Furman SPR-20I Voltage Regulator for better sonic results, please? :scratch:
Some argue power conditioners may “limit power supply” to high-current amplifier and suggest getting an isolation transformer, for example, 1.8KVA Topaz 91018-32T Line Noise Suppressing Ultra-Isolator, with extremely low inter-winding capacitance (.005pf), instead of expensive power conditioner… :scratch:
I am totally and completely lost. Please help! :oops:
Plug the amp straight into the wall. This was the advice I got from Pass Labs. The reason is : The fuse will protect the amp. Beyond this, if something electricity related destroys your amp, you probably have more to worry about than your amp, because your home got directly hit by lightning and is probably on fire. You can call Pass Labs. I'm sure they'll probably repeat the above if you're super concerned (as I also was, which is why I called them). But if you want added peace of mind, I think SurgeX makes a great product. Don't get sucked into AC filtering products. The transformer in the amp will filter the power. Filtering type products tend to work best on low power devices like source components, which don't have massive power supplies....and so, are much more sensitive to line noise and small power fluctuations.
-
There is so much written about surge protectors and power conditioners. RVs and boats also have low voltage protection which is actually the most dangerous to electronic components. Also, there is great concern about pure sine wave power for generators, inverters and such...
That said - it's important to start with good power to begin with. When I am involved in studio design, we go to great lengths to isolate power to a control room. Usually a dedicated source. Separate from lines with transformers and motors. Dedicated grounds. The proper amount of average to serve all the equipment - not at idle but peaks.
You can buy all the gear you want - but the best rooms usually start out with a clean power source. If you start with that, 90% of the battle is won.
-
All of the better sounding amps that I have ever used, sounds better plugged into the wall. Power conditioners seems to constrict soundstage and dynamics on amplifiers.
-
Surgex, Zerosurge and the Brick Wall are pretty much the same technology and units. The Tripp Lite is a good unit and cheap. These are just added protection from things like a lightening strike although it is no guaranty that electronics still won't get damaged. But they do come with a monetary protection guaranty.
-
Thank you very much! All, all of you! :)
Could somebody please estimate the max power consumption of Pass Labs XA30.5? I understand its power consumption at idle is approximately 200 watts. :scratch:
-
Thank you very much! All, all of you! :)
Could somebody please estimate the max power consumption of Pass Labs XA30.5? I understand its power consumption at idle is approximately 200 watts. :scratch:
According to the online manual in the download section: "With the exception of the largest of the X and XA series, there is no difficulty running two amplifiers on a single 15-amp circuit. Given the high current draw, we generally do not recommend active line conditioners, although they are unlikely to damage the [/size]amplifier."
-
As @OzarkTom noted "Power conditioners seems to constrict soundstage and dynamics on amplifiers" and @Evoke found that "... Given the high current draw, we generally do not recommend active line conditioners..." :nono:
This is a pretty serious argument to follow @RDavidson's advice "Plug the amp straight into the wall"! :)
I am not sure if SurgeX products mentioned by @I.Greyhound Fan are "active line conditioners" or work on some other principle, and do not "constrict soundstage and dynamics" of amplifiers... :oops:
@Evoke, is it possible to provide an estimate like this: While working in class A, power consumption of XA30.5 does not exceed XXX watts? :scratch: Probably not, silly me... :oops:
-
As @OzarkTom noted "Power conditioners seems to constrict soundstage and dynamics on amplifiers" and @Evoke found that "... Given the high current draw, we generally do not recommend active line conditioners..." :nono:
This is a pretty serious argument to follow @RDavidson's advice "Plug the amp straight into the wall"! :)
I am not sure if SurgeX products mentioned by @I.Greyhound Fan are "active line conditioners" or work on some other principle, and do not "constrict soundstage and dynamics" of amplifiers... :oops:
@Evoke, is it possible to provide an estimate like this: While working in class A, power consumption of XA30.5 does not exceed XXX watts? :scratch: Probably not, silly me... :oops:
I would be careful assuming anything is 100 percent applicable, until you have tried it for yourself. I, for many years, plugged my amplifier straight into the wall for fear of doing harm to the sound because it was what I read was appropriate.
One day, for kicks, I plugged my amplifier into my SR Powercell 10SE, and the sound was most certainly better. Now, I have never measured, but I am pretty sure, given that I live in an older townhome, that my power is pretty poor. Everything sounds better through the conditioner here. So, it could very well be possible that, given better power, an amp would be better straight to the wall. However, you can only play the hands you are dealt.
Right now I have a Pass XA30.8 plugged into the same SR PC10SE, and I am very happy with the sound. If you have a good conditioner, I would try it for yourself, and see if you enjoy it more.
-
Agree. That's the BEST advice. Try for yourself and see. All of us have different ears, systems, rooms, etc. I think the OP is mostly concerned with protection ; Protection that won't harm the sound. This can be tricky, but I think the key here is to at least start with proven technology (like SurgeX). Get a simple unit that serves your power requirements and doesn't limit current. Call Pass and find out what the maximum power draw is and get a surge protector that fits the rating plus extra.
-
My advice, get a surge suppressor. A little extra protection is well worth it when dealing with thousands of dollars worth of audio gear. You never think that a lightening strike will happen to you, but it has happened twice to me and I was glad to have suppressors. I did lose some cheap electronic gear that was not protected on the second strike. I have listened to my Pass amp with and without a SS and there was no difference in sound. I can't speak for a power conditioner though.
-
Agree. That's the BEST advice. Try for yourself and see. All of us have different ears, systems, rooms, etc. I think the OP is mostly concerned with protection ; Protection that won't harm the sound. This can be tricky, but I think the key here is to at least start with proven technology (like SurgeX). Get a simple unit that serves your power requirements and doesn't limit current. Call Pass and find out what the maximum power draw is and get a surge protector that fits the rating plus extra.
I have a whole house protector on my panel. Hasn't failed me yet. Might be something the OP can look into. The installation likely costs more than the unit itself. The Bryston units are supposed to be good as well.
-
Thank you all very kindly for your most appreciated help and GREAT patience with yours truly! :)
The beast has finally arrived, and am waiting for a hand with setting it up into my rack! :)
Any final suggestions, please? :scratch:
-
If you want to try plugging straight into the wall first but also have surge protection try one of these.
http://www.bluecircle.com/page95.html
Same principal as most surge protectors that don't use the tech that Surgex, Brick Wall use. Plug it into any outlet on the same circuit as the amp and it will protect the whole circuit. Several dealers on A'Gon and US Audiomart sell them. They are about $29 a piece. I have one plugged into an outlet on each of my three 20 amp circuits in the Audio Room. As it turns out you can buy them for cheaper in packs of three.
-
Thank you very much! All, all of you! :)
Could somebody please estimate the max power consumption of Pass Labs XA30.5? I understand its power consumption at idle is approximately 200 watts. :scratch:
I see it is listed as Class A, SS. Therefore, by definition, the average current draw remains constant, 2 amps as long as the amp does not clip. If the amp goes into class AB1, then the peak current would be higher. But with class A, the current at max output power will remain the same as idle.
In fact, by definition, the maximum dissipation of the output devices occurs at idle. As the output power increases above zero, the dissipation of the output devices is reduced, approximately by the actual output power.
Hope this helps.
Steve
-
I see it is listed as Class A, SS. Therefore, by definition, the average current draw remains constant, 2 amps as long as the amp does not clip. If the amp goes into class AB1, then the peak current would be higher. But with class A, the current at max output power will remain the same as idle.
In fact, by definition, the maximum dissipation of the output devices occurs at idle. As the output power increases above zero, the dissipation of the output devices is reduced, approximately by the actual output power.
Hope this helps.
Steve
Steve,
that's correct for a pure class A amp.
The tricky part is that Pass amps flip to class A/B when pushed. In this case they can actually put out MUCH more power than their class A rating. I wish Pass published the A/B output spec along side the A output spec. Per Stereophile :
"Superficially, the XA30.5 appears to be a 30Wpc class-A design. But this is not the maximum output power. The specifications list the amplifier's maximum output voltage as ±35V, which, assuming this is the RMS voltage, is equivalent to 153W into 8 ohms. The XA30.5 thus transitions into class-B for the top 6dB of its dynamic-range capability."
Per their tests:
"Fig.4 shows how the THD+noise percentage in the amplifier's output varies with output power into 8, 4, and 2 ohms. While the XA30.5 may give 30Wpc into 8 ohms in class-A (14.8dBW), the distortion at this power level is low, at 0.015%. The amplifier doesn't actually clip (defined as the THD reaching 1%) until a much higher power level: 130Wpc into 8 ohms (21.14dBW). Even higher powers were available into lower impedances before clipping: 195Wpc into 4 ohms with both channels driven (19.9dBW), and 332W into 2 ohms with one channel driven (19.2dBW)."
I still wouldn't recommend plugging the amp into a power filter, but if you get a surge protector I think getting one that is rated for 600 watts (just for the amp) should be just fine. You can get away with less, but a surge protector with at least 600 watt capability is pretty modest / normal these days anyway. If you plan to plug other components into the surge protector, you can probably look in their manuals to get their power draw.
-
Thank you all very kindly, as always! :D
Can I employ the CP1500PFCLCD (please see at https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/cp1500pfclcd/) as a surge suppressor, please? :scratch:
All Battery & Surge Protected Outlets I am using with my computer setup, and I thought I can use the other 5 surge-only outlets as a surge suppressor for my Hi-Fi system. :scratch:
These 5 surge-only outlets, as far as I understand, simply work as a pass-through, so whatever the incoming utility line voltage and frequency is, that’s what I will get at those outlets. Just like a simple surge-strip, not a power filter, i.e., not a current-limiting device. :scratch:
As a test (was it a stupid one?) I connected my 850W toaster to one of the surge-only outlets, while all computer equipment connected to Battery & Surge Protected Outlets was in use, and everything appeared working just fine :oops:
Does this mean I can connect my Hi-Fi system to these 5 surge-only outlets, and be happy I have it protected from power surges? :scratch:
-
I don't see a reason you wouldn't be able to. Go for it. Actually, your toaster test seems reasonable to me. They draw quite a bit of power, as do vacuum cleaners and blenders.
-
If your house gets a direct hit by lightening, no surge protector made will stop that into saving your equipment. I always unplug mine.
-
Agree. That's the BEST advice. Try for yourself and see. All of us have different ears, systems, rooms, etc. I think the OP is mostly concerned with protection ; Protection that won't harm the sound. This can be tricky, but I think the key here is to at least start with proven technology (like SurgeX). Get a simple unit that serves your power requirements and doesn't limit current. Call Pass and find out what the maximum power draw is and get a surge protector that fits the rating plus extra.
I own a XA30.5. According to Kent English at Pass :
Stand=by is less than 0.5W. Approx 2000hr for 1 kW/hr draw
Idle, meaning till you exceed class a rating of 30W delivered to speaker is 200w. So every 5 hrs of running is 1kW/hr
-
If your house gets a direct hit by lightening, no surge protector made will stop that into saving your equipment. I always unplug mine.
My point earlier. :thumb: And if your house takes a direct hit, I kind of doubt that your audio gear will be at the top of your list of concerns.....maybe 2nd or 3rd on the list. :lol:
-
My house is grounded but it got struck by lightening and it blew out some electronics that were not on a surge suppressor. My surge suppressors did trip and saved my other gear that were on the same circuit. But my neighbors house was struck and he was in his living room and a bolt shot across his living room and it took out every electrical appliance in his house.
-
I am so very happy I found AudioCircle community: what a nice bunch of guys you are! :D
I will use my UPS as a surge suppressor for some additional protection. Thank you very kindly, @RDavidson! :)
I am not sure if my Primary PRE30 preamp could be considered to be on par with XA30.5... :scratch:
I notice some of you have XA30.5, and would very much like to learn what preamps you consider to be the best to pair it with. Some great recommendations I received: Pass Labs XP-10, Parasound JC2, W4S STP-SE, to name a few solid state ones. What is especially attractive about XP-10 is that it works in pure class A, and can be found for less than 3K used (also an important factor for me)! :)
-
Can I employ the CP1500PFCLCD (please see at https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/cp1500pfclcd/) as a surge suppressor, please? :scratch:
Do you need a surge protector if you will running the system under rain or heavy wheater.
Flash lightning with clear wheater is rare but exist, mainly in soils w/much iron.
-
Any follow up impressions of the amp? I'm looking at this one too to pair up with my Totem Arros.
-
Dear audiophiles, my dear friends! :D
Thank you, thank you very much for all your most appreciated help! :)
First and foremost, my sincere apologies for not getting back to you with the words of gratitude for all your time and efforts educating yours truly in the field of High-End Sound. Please believe me, an unthankful pig I am not: my “motor” was giving me grief lately and I have just come back home on Friday… :oops:
What can I say: everything you told me, everything I read about this truly amazing amplifier is true. I keep listening to my favorite compositions (vocal, organ, piano, orchestral, chamber, symphonic, jazz, pop, rock…) discovering nuances I have never heard before, and, mind you, many of those compositions I know by heart... Something really wonderful has happened to my speakers: it’s like instead of my entry level Hi-Fi Monitor Audio RS6 I am enjoying High-End Wilson Audio Sasha. The images became even more holographic with clearly defined instruments positioning, and all of this is built upon the foundation of rich, velvet, excellently articulated BASS… :D
As usual, a couple of silly questions from yours truly… :oops:
What is the purpose of Pass Labs XA30.5 meter, please? During my listening sessions the needle is always around 12 o’clock… What does this mean? :scratch:
For quite some time I have not had a chance to look at the back of my components, and have just “discovered” there are a few unused XLR and RCA inputs on my Primare PRE30 preamplifier. Would you recommend me to employ Cardas Protective Caps (please se at http://www.cardas.com/protective_caps.php - in my understanding, effectively shorting out the inputs), plugs from Neutrik (please see at http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/sealing-accessories/ndf - effectively providing just protection from dust) or do nothing in this regard? :scratch:
-
The meter reads "bias" from what I understand. Being at 12 o'clock for the XA series is absolutely normal.
If the needle begins to bounce past 12 o'clock, to the right, it means you are exceeding Class A output. For the XA series, that likely means you are running out of juice.
-
The meter reads "bias" from what I understand. Being at 12 o'clock for the XA series is absolutely normal.
If the needle begins to bounce past 12 o'clock, to the right, it means you are exceeding Class A output. For the XA series, that likely means you are running out of juice.
Yup. Left of 12 o'clock you're in class A. Right of 12 o'clock you're in class A/B. With your speakers and size of your room you may never see the needle move hardly at all...which is a good thing. Glad you're happy with it. I knew you'd be blown away. :wink:
-
Don't waste your money on the end caps. Save your money for another day or a better preamp.
-
^100% agree.
-
Thank you guys! :D
No protective caps than. :)
Yes, better preamp, but which one? That is the question! What do you think of solid state BAT, please? :scratch:
As @RDavidson succinctly put it, "I knew you'd be blown away. :wink:" Absolutely correct! I am! :D And yes, I never see the needle move hardly at all, it is glued at about 5 to twelve o'clock position.
-
BAT gear is awesome, I own a VK-51se and pair it with my X250 amp. I haven't heard their SS preamps but they are supposed to be very good. Do you prefer a warmer or more neutral sound?
I would try and stick with a Pass Pre like an XP10. Others to consider are a Conrad Johnson ET-3se, Parasound JC2, ARC LS27, BAT VK-32se, 52se and 42se (this one is a SS).
-
Protective caps (i.e. non-shorting) may reduce oxidation of the connectors, but will typically do little else.
You may want to consider shorting caps on the unused RCA analog inputs of the pre-amp if you get "pops" as you click past them when switching inputs, or if you hear any cross-talk on those open inputs from the active input. (Either dead-short or resistor versions are likely fine, but versions with an internal 470 Ohm resistor are often specifically recommended for phono inputs - a 100x factor relative to the typical 47,000 Ohm impedance of a MM phono input.) If you're not getting pops or hearing cross-talk, I wouldn't worry about it. Shorting XLR inputs is also not usually needed. Asking the manufacturer is always recommended.
Do NOT put shorting plugs on analog outputs or digital connections or you risk damage! Also, do not short the RCA inputs of the Pass amp, as they are paralleled with the XLR inputs, so you would thus block the input signal.
And yes, the meters on XA30.5 won't move off of the 12 o'clock position unless the power draw exceeds the roughly 30W of class A operation. That said, the XA30.5 has lots of headroom above that as it moves into class B operation. Stereophile calculated the upper limit to be 153W into 8 Ohms.
As others have said, little will protect against a direct lightning strike unless your house was designed for it from the start. That said, I prefer whole-house surge protection over point-of-use options. The cost can be similar, and you protect everything in your house. Yes, the common ones typically have sacrificial MOVs which can be somewhat electrically "noisy", but the wiring length from the mains panel to the amp alone is likely long enough to filter that limited bit of noise out by itself. The common ones (Eaton, etc.) can typically be found at your local hardware stores in the $50-150 price range, so even when you add in the cost of an electrician to install it, you're still in a similar cost ball-park as your decent point-of-use protectors. If you want to step up from there, look at the Environmental Potentials EP-2050 (http://ep2000.com/products/residential/). Typically $700 plus install. (If you're going to go that far, you may want to look at the EP-2750 ground filter (http://ep2000.com/products/commercial/) as well.)
-
Response Audio IMO makes some of the finest tubed preamps available. Not a dealer. Contact Bill Baker. Many different price levels available. If you lived in NY I would invite you over to listen to tubes/SS gear, etc to learn the differences had.
charles
-
If you want to try a solid state preamplifier from the Pass stable, I would email/call Reno Hifi, and see if they can send you out a HPA-1 for demo.
I have a headphone/nearfield set up, so I use the HPA-1 to serve two masters. Considering its relatively low asking price, it is a pretty awesome solid state preamp mated with my 30.8. I was actually pretty surprised how good it sounded.
Other than being a headphone amplifier and a preamp, it has zero features. No remote, no balance control, only two inputs, one output, and single ended only. It surely is feature limited, but I think it would give an XP-10 a run for its preamp sound money at a lower entry fee.
I do dream of an XP-30 though.
-
Thank you very kindly guys! :D
I have reviewed the specs for the preamps suggested, and, quite frankly, cannot make up my mind as to which way to go about preamp for my Pass Labs XA30.5: tube or solid state… :oops:
What I noticed, SS usually have better specs vs. tubed designs. I certainly understand the specs do not tell the whole story, but still, can we not submit “the good specs are the precursor for the good sound”? :scratch:
There MUST be differences in presentation between SS and tubes! But what are those differences?! :oops:
Charles, could you please briefly describe what differences in sound you notice when switching between SS and tubed preamps? Ideally, in a system with a class A power amp… :scratch:
I am truly sorry to bug you guys with all these silly questions, but in my neck of the woods I simply have no opportunities to go and learn the differences between SS and tubes for myself… :oops:
@brj, I was switching between the inputs (XLR, RCA, open, connected to the sources, active and inactive) of my preamp: heard no sound of any kind coming from the speakers. Is this the experiment you suggested me to conduct? If it is, how can we interpret the results obtained, please? :scratch:
In my understanding, based on sacrificial MOVs surge protection is “current-limiting” and may negatively impact the sound. I wonder if EP-2050 and EP-2750 are free from such “trait”? :scratch:
-
Not true. You do have opportunities to try things. The proof is that you just bought a Pass amp and you have the internet.
I lived nearly in the middle of nowhere in South Dakota for 4 years. During that time I bought, sold, and traded more gear than I care to divulge. I've been in this hobby for 20+ years. Those 4 years were the most informative in this hobby that I've had since I started out.
The point is that if you are willing to try things and learn things on your own, you will develop an understanding of what you like and what you don't. It's your system. You have to live with it...and hopefully enjoy it.
Also, please start a (singular) preamp thread, if you want to get into a preamp discussion.
-
You are just going to have to read the reviews on Preamps and bite the bullet and buy one that has attributes in sound that you may like. If you don't like it, flip it and sell it. Going the used route is a better way to do that. All the preamps that I listed are great sounding and one is not necessarily better than the other. It comes down to personal preference. Tubes can be a hassle sometimes and are another thing to go bad, but they can make a difference. Not all tube preamps have a tube sound.
A better preamp should give you more transparency, wider sound stage, more detail, better bass and be more musical. Some will have some warm bloom and others will be more neutral. Other people will say a preamp should get out of the way and not influence the sound. I never understood that because every piece of gear imparts a sound.
For warmer or a slightly darker sound, BAT is a good choice. Pass can be slightly warmer to neutral. ARC is neutral for the most part as is the Parasound JC2. The ARC LS27 has a very transparent sound with a very wide sound stage. BAT has a fuller and thicker midrange with a little more depth and very powerful bass and dynamics. These are generalizations from my experience with various preamps.
Don't worry with MOV surge suppressors. I have not noticed any fall off in sound. If you don't want MOV, get a Brick Wall, Zerosurge or Surgex. They do not use MOV's but they do use the same technology which I believe Brick Wall used first but I could be wrong. I have a friend that uses a Brick Wall and it does not degrade the sound. I am going to buy one if that helps.
Don't sweat the small stuff, you are trying to analyze everything to death. Just enjoy the music, because it is all good. There are no bad choices.
-
Again, note that I was referencing a whole-house surge protector installed at the mains panel, not a point-of-use surge strip into which your audio gear is directly plugged. A MOV installed at the mains panel won't matter, and those units are designed to handle the entire electrical load of your house, so it won't be current limiting either. (Also, in the EP units, the MOV is not the primary means of protection anyway - it is secondary to the main non-sacrificial surge protection circuit and intended as a last line of defense. They have 5 year warranties, if that helps put things in perspective. I don't know about the more common units like Eaton, etc.... I'll leave that to you to look up if you're interested.)
If you heard no popping from the speakers as you switched your preamp across unused single ended (RCA) analog inputs, then I wouldn't worry about shorting them.
-
On the meter, yes I own this very amp. this write up in Stereophile 2009 nails it and its the way mine operates. ""According to Nelson Pass
that the front-panel meter, which indicates the amount of current being drawn from the wall, “should
sit somewhere in the middle” and “won’t move if you’re running in class-A.” During most of my listening sessions, the
meter would bounce between the middle and, say, the three-quarters point of its range.""
I live in the Lightning capt of the US and a surge protector will not save you from mother nature if she hits. A whole house or any fancy $$$ protection you buy, its will fry like fresh cooked hush puppies if you are hit. . I get into the habit if I leave home and a storm in projected for my area, I unplug my gear as its better to be safe than cry latter.
Pre-amps used, Quicksliver , ARLS27, Pass XP-10, W4S STP-SE. The W4S is currently in my system It really seems to mate well with the PASS for overall dynamics a tight lower end which allowed the xa30 to do its stuff. To me out of the pre's I tried, the W4S was the most natural of the bunch which is what I want a pre-amp to do and compared nicely to the more expensive xp-10. If money was no object the xp-10 after its broken in is one heck of a pre-amp but it comes at a cost. Cables used, Acoustic Zen, Kimber, BlueJean, DH Labs, RCA and XLR. By all means XLR it just sounded better to me. ps speakers used Kef 201/2, GE Triton 2+, Vapor Breeze. Room size from a small 10x12x12 office to a 25x18x12 family room. The bigger room I got to try the Pass INt-60 wow but $$$
-
Thank you very much for all your most appreciated help! :)
-
what is the impedance of the the speakers? if they dip below 6 ohms then stay with solid state. Tubes are best for speakers in the 6- 8 ohm range. for solid state i would look at Belles and even Rega. Both will be in the 3k range and will sound very nice.
-
On the meter, yes I own this very amp. this write up in Stereophile 2009 nails it and its the way mine operates. ""According to Nelson Pass
that the front-panel meter, which indicates the amount of current being drawn from the wall, “should
sit somewhere in the middle” and “won’t move if you’re running in class-A.” During most of my listening sessions, the
meter would bounce between the middle and, say, the three-quarters point of its range.""
Curious your speaker efficiency rating. I had a X350.5 once with 84 db Salks and it was nice but I thought the Wyred Class D was better. With the new .8's and XA's I am curious once again to try another Pass amp but with 93 db now I always wondered if an X30 would be enough juice.
-
Curious your speaker efficiency rating. I had a X350.5 once with 84 db Salks and it was nice but I thought the Wyred Class D was better. With the new .8's and XA's I am curious once again to try another Pass amp but with 93 db now I always wondered if an X30 would be enough juice.
BRM,
Unless your Exotica 3s are wired differently than mine, you can't use any of the Pass amplifiers with them. With the way that the Pass Lab amplifier function, they are "live" on both the positive and negative leads. The Rythmik amplifier needs to see a ground connection, or else it is open to damage.
This was verified with both Brian Ding and Jim. If you have the standard connection of the Exotica 3s, with the main amplifier providing voltage to the sub amp, you can't use the Pass amplifiers.
It is a shame. I moved my Exotica 3s into my living room for HT, and have been using a Pass Labs XA30.8 with Daedalus speakers to fantastic results.
-
That supremely sucks. I have no idea what SS amps are worth trying now.
-
That supremely sucks. I have no idea what SS amps are worth trying now.
I have a VanAlstine FET Valve 600R Amp that will probably be a great piece for you, and it's a hybrid Amp. Frank uses tubes with this SS Amp. I just listed it in the For Sale "Aplification" section. Check out the reviews and see if it's something that will interest you.
-
BRM,
Unless your Exotica 3s are wired differently than mine, you can't use any of the Pass amplifiers with them. With the way that the Pass Lab amplifier function, they are "live" on both the positive and negative leads. The Rythmik amplifier needs to see a ground connection, or else it is open to damage.
This was verified with both Brian Ding and Jim. If you have the standard connection of the Exotica 3s, with the main amplifier providing voltage to the sub amp, you can't use the Pass amplifiers.
It is a shame. I moved my Exotica 3s into my living room for HT, and have been using a Pass Labs XA30.8 with Daedalus speakers to fantastic results.
I understand there are complexities with this, but a normal ground is provided on Pass amps :
https://www.passlabs.com/press/connecting-pass-labs-amps-powered-subwoofer-0
Note that the .8 series amps have this feature also. Look into it. The folks at Pass are super helpful. Give them a call.
-
So you would tap into the actual 0 volt ground instead of the black speaker terminal? There isn't much verbiage in that link...
-
Jim gave me the solution. Not too hard to implement.
-
Yeah. I was just pointing out that you CAN still get a Pass amp as there IS a workaround for your situation. I don't know the particulars, which is why I suggested calling Pass Labs. :thumb:
-
Yeah. I was just pointing out that you CAN still get a Pass amp as there IS a workaround for your situation. I don't know the particulars, which is why I suggested calling Pass Labs. :thumb:
I exchanged a few emails with them Friday and they were a little confusled on my situation but Jim gave me the answer today on how to do it. A small wiring change to the speaker and plate amp.