AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: ACHiPo on 14 Jun 2016, 01:26 pm
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Yep, I'm definitely off the deep end (or ever deeper into the rabbit hole), as I have a new project--building a turntable. Actually, I'm going follow lots of others that reuse key parts of a Lenco idler-drive turntable to take them to a new level of performance by replacing the sprung plinth with a massive hunk of something to damp vibrations while rigidly coupling the spindle to the tonearm.
My adventure started when I stumbled across this article by Arthur Salvatore. While I'd heard about (and lusted after) the Forsell and other decks he referenced, I'd never heard of a Lenco. To see his claims that a turntable that could be purchased for a few hundred bucks (less in Europe) could best statement turntables captured my imagination.
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Lenco.html
Over the next few months I continued to research what I could about idler drives--something that was old and rumbly when I got into hi-fi in the 70s as everyone was into belt drive and direct drive. I discovered the Thorens 124, and Garrard 301 and 401, all of which were much more expensive with rarer replacement parts.
A few weeks ago I found this 60 Hz deck for $300 (AC frequency is important, as most Lencos were built for 50 Hz, and the higher US frequency creates a challenge with running at 33.3 RPM). The tonearm was trashed, but I didn't care since I'd be adding my own (maybe 2!). I took a gamble and hit "buy it now". The seller warned me that the packing was in rough shape, but that it would arrive safely, and he was correct on both counts.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144937)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144938)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144939)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144941)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144940)
The seller had correctly tightened the transport screws to protect the motor suspension, and removed the platter for shipping.
I plugged it in and it spun. There was a bit of noise, but I expected that since it was an old idler drive--it likely needed a full rebuild. I moved my second arm on its pod over to the Lenco and aligned it with the Feickert protractor, using Adjust+ to dial in azimuth and VTA. There was no mat, but I wanted to see how it sounded, so I put on a record. Tada, music. Yes there was a bit of rumble, but it sounded pretty darned good. Sitting there listening to music coming out, I remembered that I forgot to LOOSEN the transport screws! Removing the platter, I loosen the 3 red screws, replace the platter and put on a record again. Dead quiet! Magic! I now know what all the shoutin' is about--this thing as-is compares quite favorably to my WTT Reference turntable. Now I'm excited!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144942)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144943)
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Very nice. I assume you know about these guys already, lots of good advice there http://www.lencoheaven.net/ (http://www.lencoheaven.net/)
For a plinth, consider the benefits of a nice slab of blue slate, which is what my rim drive TT uses. Good stuff, readily available, very stable :thumb:
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sweet,i got a lenco laying around also.maybe this will motivate me to start a project,can't wait to see what you do to it. :thumb:
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Very nice. I assume you know about these guys already, lots of good advice there http://www.lencoheaven.net/ (http://www.lencoheaven.net/)
For a plinth, consider the benefits of a nice slab of blue slate, which is what my rim drive TT uses. Good stuff, readily available, very stable :thumb:
Tom,
Yep, I've been spending a lot of time learning about Lencos and looking at design concepts on LH. Slate is one possibility, as are soapstone and traditional laminated wood, but right now I'm leaning toward a resin and bentonite plinth. More on those musings later.
AC
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I built my PTP4 Lenco a couple of years ago and still absolutely love it. I built it using 6 layers of 1/2" Corian. Very heavy, and easy to cut with wood working tools.
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Last table I plan to own. I ordered from Peter last year: a Solid12.
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Nice arm, I suggest use 2 or 3 arms for MC and MM if table room allow.
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I considered a PTP, as well as Corian. For this build I'm going to use as shaved top-plate "frying pan", although mine will be more like an "amoeba" since I plan to leave the on/off switch in place as well as the speed control selector.
I've already ordered and received one of Norbert's idler wheels,
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=11628.210
as well as after-market PTFE bushings and a brass clamp to replace the circlip on the idler shaft.
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=21002.0
I've ordered a spindle bearing cap to replace the plastic one, and allows the spindle bearing to be bolted to the plinth.
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=9739.150
I also have a pair of VibroStop Platter Mats stacked on the Lenco (I'm really liking them so far, at least as compared to no platter mat):
http://www.hologramacoustics.com/product/vibro-stop-platter-mat/
The rest of the mechanicals will just be taken apart and cleaned/lubed. My hope here is to not screw something up, as the current performance is pretty darned good as-is.
Here is the concept for my turntable:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144954)
The Lenco top plate will be rotated 90° counter clockwise so the on/off switch will be ~1:00. The Pioneer PA-70 tonearm will be ~2:00, and I'll be adding a TransFi Terminator linear tracking tonearm at 12:00, angled at ~30° which should make it relatively easy to access for operation and stylus cleaning. The Pioneer will have multiple headshells/cartridges, but will primarily be for my Miyajima Zero mono cartridge. The TransFi will have two interchangeable arms, one with a Lyra MC and one with an AT 150 MLX MM cartridge.
Key design considerations for the plinth are to 1) reduce vibration by servicing and tuning the motor, idler, and spindle bearing. 2) isolate/damp motor and idler, 3) rigidly couple the spindle bearing to the tone armboards, and 4) damp the tonearm/spindle coupling by sinking internal vibrations to the plinth, 5) massive, high-damping plinth to absorb internal and external vibrations. I may also add a second platter to add rotational inertia and deal with the relatively low platter height of the Lenco. I will use armboards to allow for future arm changes made from either Panzerholz, cast resin/bentonite, or baltic birch plywood.
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The leading candidate for plinth material is bentonite (fancy kitty litter--unused :wink:) saturated into isopthalic polyester resin as formulated by Rap,
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=12943.msg196263#msg196263
and used by others.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/resin-bentonite-clay-plinth-build.530544/
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=14351.0
I looked at Panzerholz, which has a great reputation for good damping properties (plus it's bulletproof for those Hunter Thompson moments :thumb:)
http://www.delignit.de/Delignit/cms/front_content.php?idcat=17&idart=46&changelang=3
It's also hard to find and really expensive when you do (~$1kUSD for ~3' x 5' sheet ), which is why I'm considering teaching myself to cast polyester kitty litter.
As I mentioned I'm also considering soapstone and possibly slate, although working those materials I find even more intimidating than learning how to cast and finish resin.
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Nice project. I did the same thing with a Thorens.. I'm very happy with the results as I'm sure you will be.
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It's also hard to find and really expensive when you do (~$1kUSD for ~3' x 5' sheet ), which is why I'm considering teaching myself to cast polyester kitty litter.
As I mentioned I'm also considering soapstone and possibly slate, although working those materials I find even more intimidating than learning how to cast and finish resin.
Hi Evan,
Nice project. We're at approx. the same point in our plinth projects. In other words, I haven't really started on my TT81 build, but I've been thinking about it. I suggest you consider resin and ground limestone. That's what Kenwood used for the anti-resonant material in the KD500/600 and LO7D.
Limestone is heavier than kitty litter and might be better? I've been considering layers of different materials. When you add a substance to the resin it reduces the flow of uncured material, so it might be possible to build up a plinth w/o a complete mold.
Thanks for starting this thread. Let us know how it goes.
neo
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Hi Evan,
Nice project. We're at approx. the same point in our plinth projects. In other words, I haven't really started on my TT81 build, but I've been thinking about it. I suggest you consider resin and ground limestone. That's what Kenwood used for the anti-resonant material in the KD500/600 and LO7D.
Limestone is heavier than kitty litter and might be better? I've been considering layers of different materials. When you add a substance to the resin it reduces the flow of uncured material, so it might be possible to build up a plinth w/o a complete mold.
Thanks for starting this thread. Let us know how it goes.
neo
Neo,
Thanks! I'm struggling to find the comparison of damping at acoustic frequencies, but here is a pretty good discussion on the merits of the bentonite/resin system (skip about 2/3s down until you get to "Rap", Hrappur Magnusson who is a published seismic geologist and seems to really know his stuff, and continue on to the 2nd page:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=56141
(I just found one of the posts with damping factor data: http://lenco.reference.clicforum.fr/t551-damping-factors.htm)
The resin+ground limestone idea is interesting as well, as it should have similar performance to Corian or Silestone. From what I've been able to fine, the bentonite mixture is superior to both, but obviously people have made very good sounding turntables out of both materials, so it may not matter all that much. Also, the data I've found to data are results published in forums, not in refereed journals, so there may be significant errors in the results. I do trust what I've read of Rap's explanations, however, so therefor am leaning in that direction.
Check out this build from Rap. I really like the steel skeleton frame, and the finished product is very nice looking.
http://lenco.reference.clicforum.fr/t2198-Donc-je-recommence.htm?q=rap
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145001)
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Made it to Kinkos to get the template printed out. The template is designed for A1 paper, but prints well on 24" x 36" paper here in the states. Started by checking the TransFi tonearm placement. It think it will work quite nicely. By the way, I'm very impressed with the fit and finish of the TransFi tonearm. I hooked up the air pump and quickly determined that the tonearm wasn't level as the carriage slid toward the end. A quick twist of the alignment thumb screws remedied the problem. Seems like it will be pretty straight forward to dial in.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148117)
Once I got the TransFi pretty much situated, I placed the Pioneer PA-70 tonearm to make sure everything would still play nicely with each other. Looks like it will.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148120)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148121)
Now that I have the alignment pretty much figured out, it's time to strip the Lenco down. I'll be cutting down the top plate so that it fits flush into a 22 mm deep cavity. Of course that means I need to find/make a 22 mm thick top to my plinth. I'm still noodling on that one.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148122)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148126)
The bearing was dry, but the bottom cap is in good condition--not that it matters all that much as I'll be replacing the bottom cap with a machined piece that's threaded for additional bracing from the bottom. The spindle seems to be in good condition. I've got a replacement Si3N4 ball bearing for the bottom, as well as a new PEEK thrust plate.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148123)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148124)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148125)
The top plate is all stripped down and ready for trimming to size. That's a task for next weekend.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148127)
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Hi Evan,
Nice project. We're at approx. the same point in our plinth projects. In other words, I haven't really started on my TT81 build, but I've been thinking about it. I suggest you consider resin and ground limestone. That's what Kenwood used for the anti-resonant material in the KD500/600 and LO7D.
Limestone is heavier than kitty litter and might be better? I've been considering layers of different materials. When you add a substance to the resin it reduces the flow of uncured material, so it might be possible to build up a plinth w/o a complete mold.
Thanks for starting this thread. Let us know how it goes.
neo
Neo,
Have you made any more progress on a plinth? I'm talking myself out of trying to cast one, as the thought of making a mold turns my brain inside out, so I'm back to alternating MDF and birch ply with some sort of elastomeric glue.
AC
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I looked at Panzerholz, which has a great reputation for good damping properties (plus it's bulletproof for those Hunter Thompson moments :thumb:)
http://www.delignit.de/Delignit/cms/front_content.php?idcat=17&idart=46&changelang=3
It's also hard to find and really expensive when you do (~$1kUSD for ~3' x 5' sheet ), which is why I'm considering teaching myself to cast polyester kitty litter.
Take a look at Richlite, it is also compressed wood similar to Panzerholz. Richlite can be machined with carbide tools and is readily available, if you are lucky a local distributer or installer will have samples or scraps like sink cutouts to play with.
http://www.richlite.com/ (http://www.richlite.com/)
(http://www.wghwoodworking.net/audio/richlite_cut-away.jpg)
Here is my un-scientific tap test of three materials including Richlite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkSxH40x5SA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkSxH40x5SA)
Search for "Richlite" on AC, I have made many posts over the years with my damping experiments.
Wayne
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Wayne,
Thanks for the tip! I've sent an email to Richlite and their distributor in Northern CA.
AC
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Neo,
Have you made any more progress on a plinth? I'm talking myself out of trying to cast one, as the thought of making a mold turns my brain inside out, so I'm back to alternating MDF and birch ply with some sort of elastomeric glue.
AC
No, not really. I'm working on another long term project, unrelated to audio. It's slow going because I don't know what I'm doing.
IMO you're overthinking this damping/vibration transmission factor. Based on results from other tables, it's high mass or weight which is the primary source of solid sound. Consider the Saskia idler. The slate plinth weighs 200 lbs. Slate is a good transmitter of vibrations, but it doesn't seem to matter.
The mass of the plinth turns low amplitude vibrations to heat and is better able to resist movement.
The combination of different materials tends to cancel resonances. You could have some slate cut like the TransFi table, and/or incorporate different materials like lead. Filling cavities with sand might be another possibility. High mass and rigidity seems to get it.
You already have a plinth you can use as a basis for a mold? Instead of a traditional mold, augment what you have. If you mix ground stone with epoxy or resin, it won't run like a thin liquid. Use some sheet metal around the main cut-out hole and outer edges. Spray exposed surfaces of the mold with cooking spray for mold release. You could build it up in layers. Incorporate any threaded inserts (feet or chassis attachment) in the appropriate layers of your mold. That's what I've been thinking. I'll probably have a couple of layers of sheet lead.
neo
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No, not really. I'm working on another long term project, unrelated to audio. It's slow going because I don't know what I'm doing.
IMO you're overthinking this damping/vibration transmission factor. Based on results from other tables, it's high mass or weight which is the primary source of solid sound. Consider the Saskia idler. The slate plinth weighs 200 lbs. Slate is a good transmitter of vibrations, but it doesn't seem to matter.
The mass of the plinth turns low amplitude vibrations to heat and is better able to resist movement.
The combination of different materials tends to cancel resonances. You could have some slate cut like the TransFi table, and/or incorporate different materials like lead. Filling cavities with sand might be another possibility. High mass and rigidity seems to get it.
You already have a plinth you can use as a basis for a mold? Instead of a traditional mold, augment what you have. If you mix ground stone with epoxy or resin, it won't run like a thin liquid. Use some sheet metal around the main cut-out hole and outer edges. Spray exposed surfaces of the mold with cooking spray for mold release. You could build it up in layers. Incorporate any threaded inserts (feet or chassis attachment) in the appropriate layers of your mold. That's what I've been thinking. I'll probably have a couple of layers of sheet lead.
neo
Neo,
No doubt I'm over thinking it--it's what I do :oops:--further exacerbated by f'ing up my wonderful and very expensive and even harder to install balanced IC under my floor to my amp last weekend while rearranging gear on my rack to make room for my new phono stage. Gives a guy pause to "measure twice, cut once", except I seem to take it to an extreme and overthink 400 times! :lol: So while I figure out how to pull the IC out from under the floor so I can send it back and hopefully get repaired and still be long enough to work I'll continue thinking about how to make a "good-enough-for-reference-quality" plinth.
Analysis paralysis is one reason I'd pretty much just decided to build what I think will be pretty good, and that is a massive wood plinth, for which I've already got the materials and template (and skills and tools).
To be continued...
AC
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I suspect it will be pretty damn good whichever way you decide to go.
I'm thinking of alternatives to traditional casting and it seems to be layering without a complete mold. It would be relatively easy for you to use what you've got and make a layer(s) of heavier material.
neo
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Instead of a traditional mold, augment what you have. If you mix ground stone with epoxy or resin, it won't run like a thin liquid.
Casting epoxy will need a lot of experimenting, when epoxy cures it produces a lot of heat because the two chemicals react in an exothermic reaction. Too much heat and the epoxy will boil and foam.
I use a lot of epoxy and buy it in 5 gallon containers from West System http://www.westsystem.com/ss/ (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/) Check their Where to Buy list for a local distributor.
The company does extensive testing and could advise you how to cast epoxy, I have called tech support many times and they are friendly and helpful.
West also sells epoxy additives and thickening agents. Mixing in colloidal silica can make the epoxy as thick as peanut butter if you want and as hard as quartz.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/406-colloidal-silica/ (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/406-colloidal-silica/)
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The amount of heat is proportional to the amount of catalyst. Basically, the slower it catalyses the easier for the heat to escape. I've had some cast that were hot to the touch, but never anything that came close to boiling. One way to avoid heat build up would be to pour the resin in several applications. If it's only an inch thick at a time, it's easier for heat to escape. There are lots of reasons to look at other options, but I would think that heat build up is one that's easily overcome.
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The amount of heat is proportional to the amount of catalyst. Basically, the slower it catalyses the easier for the heat to escape. I've had some cast that were hot to the touch, but never anything that came close to boiling. One way to avoid heat build up would be to pour the resin in several applications. If it's only an inch thick at a time, it's easier for heat to escape. There are lots of reasons to look at other options, but I would think that heat build up is one that's easily overcome.
Is there any issue with the subsequent pours sticking to each other? Doing thinner slabs would simplify a few things.
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Casting epoxy will need a lot of experimenting, when epoxy cures it produces a lot of heat because the two chemicals react in an exothermic reaction. Too much heat and the epoxy will boil and foam.
I use a lot of epoxy and buy it in 5 gallon containers from West System http://www.westsystem.com/ss/ (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/) Check their Where to Buy list for a local distributor.
The company does extensive testing and could advise you how to cast epoxy, I have called tech support many times and they are friendly and helpful.
West also sells epoxy additives and thickening agents. Mixing in colloidal silica can make the epoxy as thick as peanut butter if you want and as hard as quartz.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/406-colloidal-silica/ (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/406-colloidal-silica/)
Thanks for the info. I saw a series of posts on a boat building site where he was mixing epoxy with limestone. Seemed pretty straightforward when used in thin pieces, although will have to experiment with the mix.
My original plan was to use polyester resin mixed with the limestone. This is the composition of Kenwood's anti-resonance material. In layers, it might be easier to use something like Corian and join the layers with epoxy. Can't envision problems with layers sticking together using epoxy or polyester resin (auto body putty).
neo
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Is there any issue with the subsequent pours sticking to each other? Doing thinner slabs would simplify a few things.
We have had a few cast that needed repair, either some where we didn't get the resin evenly distributed in the mold, or, in a couple of cases, where we had dropped them. I never had an issue with the resin sticking to itself.
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Each epoxy pour will chemically bond to the last as long as it is not completely cured, after curing the only bond will be physical. The cured epoxy will have to be roughed up with course sandpaper. I would never try to cast a turntable base, even with 35 years experience making custom furniture and doors it would be very hard to make a dead flat slab similar to a Corian or granite. Using a milling machine or wide belt sander on the cast slab would insure the top and bottom are perfectly parallel and flat.
The best method to laminate layers is to use a vacuum bag veneer press. Clamps and cauls can never equal the perfection of the vacuum bag. Below are custom door panels with handmade 1/8" fir veneer laminated to 9-ply plywood with epoxy using a vacuum veneer bag press, each panel was perfect.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.com/pages/10_panel_fir_door5.jpg)
(http://www.wghwoodworking.com/pages/10_panel_fir_door4.jpg)
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We have had a few cast that needed repair, either some where we didn't get the resin evenly distributed in the mold, or, in a couple of cases, where we had dropped them. I never had an issue with the resin sticking to itself.
That's great info. Thanks!
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I would never try to cast a turntable base, even with 35 years experience making custom furniture and doors it would be very hard to make a dead flat slab similar to a Corian or granite. Using a milling machine or wide belt sander on the cast slab would insure the top and bottom are perfectly parallel and flat.
WGH,
The people that have cast plinths have used gravity to ensure a flat surface--they level the mold, then the top surface will be parallel to the bottom.
Nice looking laminations!
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A Google image search for "cast turntable plinth" has a lot of interesting ideas. Has anyone come across a how to guide to casting one?
The guys at Plinth-Design really know what they are doing
http://www.plinth-design.com/ (http://www.plinth-design.com/)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148306)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148307)
Here is a Lenco mold, you will have to make one of these before casting.
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=4448.0 (http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=4448.0)
(http://www.miwis-bastelbu.de/Galerien/Lenco2/slides/L75_09.jpg)
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How to make a mold
http://www.miwis-bastelbu.de/Galerien/Lenco2/index.html (http://www.miwis-bastelbu.de/Galerien/Lenco2/index.html)
thread
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15441.15 (http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15441.15)
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A Google image search for "cast turntable plinth" has a lot of interesting ideas. Has anyone come across a how to guide to casting one?
The member known as "Rap" seems to have it pretty well sorted, plus he's an acoustical geologist, so knows a thing or three about vibration transmission and absorption in solids.
http://lenco.reference.clicforum.fr/t2198-Donc-je-recommence.htm?q=rap
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I received a box of samples from Richlite...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148341)
The box is quite heavy, which makes me think the product is pretty dense. Very interesting laminations available...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148342)
The company gave me a list of local fabricators that use the product, so hopefully I'll be able to find some remnants to play with. The product comes in 4' x 8' sheets and sells for $8/sf to >$30/sf, so in the range of Panzerholz.
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Well I dove in head first this weekend. First task was to trim the top plate...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148509)
No turning back now!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148510)
With the top plate roughed out, it was on to the plinth layers.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148511)
I ended up with an oopsie on one of the plinth layers, so decided to mock up the top layer. Good thing I did, as the template I used was made to keep the top plate in tact, and thus the cut out for the pan was a bit too big. It also gave me the chance to figure out a few other things on layout and construction.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148512)
Plinth will be 6 layers of Baltic Birch plywood with a couple MDF layers for flavor :lol: The top two layers will both be plywood and glued with wood glue (no constrained layer damping, just a glulam). The other 4 layers will alternate MDF and ply, with polyurethane construction adhesive (cured durometer ~60, so flexible and enabling a constrained layer sandwich).
Got the top two layers cut out and figured out the tone arm board locations and sizes.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148513)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148514)
That's all for this weekend. Next weekend plan to get the other 4 layers cut, the arm board cut outs done, and everything glued and clamped. I might even get the top plate stripped and prepped for paint.
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Quite a bit of progress this weekend. Will post pics tomorrow.
Still a lot of work to do though.
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Just realized I forgot to update progress as promised.
Veneer ordered--I'm shooting for something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149251)
I think the pictured table is curly Koa ($$$), although I bought curly Etimoe.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149252)
All layers have been cut out at this point, and the armboards are roughed out as well...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149254)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149256)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149255)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149257)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149259)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149260)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149258)
Also ordered three of Herbie's feet...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149261)
http://herbiesaudiolab.net/studgl2.jpg
Family is visiting this weekend, so no progress, but hopefully I can get everything laminated next weekend with the polyurethane glue and maybe even get it sanded and prepped for veneer. Also need to get the pan shaped, stripped, sanded, and prepped for paint.
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Wow. That Koa is stunning, but Etimoe can be as well. I've got a bunch of it that I ordered for a big project that never came to fruition. I may try to use some of it on a plinth as well.
Tell you family, that the visit was nice, but it's time to go home... you have people waiting on pics of your finished product!
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Wow. That Koa is stunning, but Etimoe can be as well. I've got a bunch of it that I ordered for a big project that never came to fruition. I may try to use some of it on a plinth as well.
Tell you family, that the visit was nice, but it's time to go home... you have people waiting on pics of your finished product!
:lol:
Scott, it's my darling younger daughter and her boyfriend home for a brief visit from New York, so gotta make hay while the sun shines. First time meeting the boyfriend and I have to say she seems to have done well--I like the kid much more than I wanted to! Heading to the city for a Giants game shortly. :thumb:
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Also ordered three of Herbie's feet...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149261)
http://herbiesaudiolab.net/studgl2.jpg
Family is visiting this weekend, so no progress, but hopefully I can get everything laminated next weekend with the polyurethane glue and maybe even get it sanded and prepped for veneer. Also need to get the pan shaped, stripped, sanded, and prepped for paint.
Have you used these feet w a turntable before?
Jim
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Have you used these feet w a turntable before?
Jim
This is my first turntable build, so no I haven't. They were recommended, and seem like they'll work. I couldn't find anything I liked better.
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Just caught up to this Thread and am impressed.
Have you selected the veneer?
Regards
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Just caught up to this Thread and am impressed.
Have you selected the veneer?
Regards
Halcro,
Thanks! I ordered Etimoe veneer and supplies (glue, tape, saw, etc.), but haven't received them yet. Hopefully they'll arrive this week.
AC
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Shaping up very nicely! Anxious to see with the veneer..
You and me both, brother! :lol:
Thanks!
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A little more progress today. The veneer arrived last weekend, but I didn't get a chance to look through it until today. I think it's going to be stunning!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149686)
Applied veneer softener and pressed it flat. Also trimmed off a piece for practice.
Got 3 + 2 layers laminated with the polyurethane glue. It has a very long curing time, which is nice, but also makes things a mess as it's very easy to transfer glue from gloves to other items.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149687)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149688)
Also got the 1/4"-20 threaded inserts installed, and the armboards drilled and countersunk for allen head bolts.
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What veneer is that?
Bob,
It's curly Etimoe. I found a turntable I liked that had similar veneer. I ordered the Etimoe, then learned the turntable I liked was curly Koa, which is about 3x the price. All told I'm happy with the Etimoe choice.
AC
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I like that veneer. What finnish will you use? Gloss, semi gloss, satin.......
Please keep posting the progress an pictures.
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I like that veneer. What finnish will you use? Gloss, semi gloss, satin.......
Please keep posting the progress an pictures.
I'm going to experiment, but I'm leaning toward gloss. Not sure if I'll use lacquer, poly, or a French polish.
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After looking at: http://www.artisanfidelity.com/gallery-turntables/ (http://www.artisanfidelity.com/gallery-turntables/) I really like the gloss finish.
But that's just my idea of what would look good.
Keep us posted!
I tend to agree. The picture that gave me the idea was a gloss finish. I didn't realize it was an Artisan Fidelity deck.
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Hi Evan,
This will be a thing of beauty, no doubt.
Thought you might like to see some other designs in wood:
http://www.pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-turntables/groovemaster/groovemaster-vintage-direct/pbn-dp8
Here's a Teres:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149801)
neo
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Hi Evan,
This will be a thing of beauty, no doubt.
Thought you might like to see some other designs in wood:
http://www.pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-turntables/groovemaster/groovemaster-vintage-direct/pbn-dp8
Here's a Teres:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149801)
neo
Neo,
Thanks! Some inspiring designs and finishes there.
Evan
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VERY nice project you have going here ACHiPo. Inspires me to get my Denon plinth project off the back burner and back in the active project queue.
You wrote "going to experiment, but I'm leaning toward gloss". Reading that makes me want to advise 'abandon hope all ye who enter herein'. I never want to damp down or discourage an ambitious DIY project, the net is full of spectacular results. However there are pitfalls to be aware of and after some years of experimenting with various materials and processes to get a high gloss finish allow me to offer some advice.
1. Under no circumstances do you want to learn how to finish on your main project, in this case your turntable. At the very least test materials and practice your craftsmanship on good sized sample boards. Even better make a jewelry box, phono cartridge storage box, or mini monitor speaker boxes so you can explore and learn how to deal with edge and corner transitions. One option to keep the project moving is to press ahead including veneering the plinth then start its finishing with a couple of coats of shellac. Personally I love the way blond shellac pops the grain and color of veneers. You could even complete the turntable and take it on a shake down run enjoying the music while perfecting your high gloss finishing procedure on the test pieces.
2. The majority of high gloss finishes seen like the examples at Artisan Fidelity are the result of spraying thick coats of polyester or epoxy onto the object, finish sanding with successively finer abrasives and then polishing using automotive finishing tools.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Fg2Am5PMTAc/U7UT6QaJYCI/AAAAAAAAhS8/T9RR58GqIg0/s1600/10300861_10152546195826064_3422284378642201614_n.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/31/47/3b/31473bf36f55feb48ed9b51de3b6f5c5.jpg)
The trick here is getting the finish thick enough to sand optically flat without going through the edges. We also need materials that allow multiple coats to melt into previous layers.
3. In theory it is possible to spray, brush, or pour a finish for a one step high gloss. This is how Japanese lacquer artisans produce traditional Asian lacquer ware.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/11/05/fashion/05lacquer-slide-F7AG/05lacquer-slide-F7AG-master1050.jpg)
Every aspect of your materials and technique must be flawless. I have gotten tantalizingly close using pour on tabletop epoxies but there always seems to be one speck, pinhole from a popped bubble or run. This has led me to materials and procedures that allow rework but demand more man-hours and materials investment.
Materials and Processes I have experimented with for high gloss finishes.
1. If you just want one project done consider finding an automotive paint and body shop and paying them a couple hundred dollars to do it. It is not that uncommon they will have already done jobs for guys doing high-end car audio painting subs. Explain you want multiple clear coats then sanding and polishing. Weigh the estimate against spending $15-$40 per can for finish and many $10s on abrasives, sanding pads, power sanding/polishing tools and your hours of time. I have yet to take this advice being a hard-core DIYer who always has another project in the queue.
2. The most DIY friendly material I have used is Minwax Wipe-On Poly. It applies very thin layers so multiple applications are needed. My best results came from having the project setup in a workspace where for many days I would apply one or two coats each day allowing 8 hours drying between coats. After the wood quits drinking it in and the finish starts to build on the wood every couple of layers I wet sand with 400 grit paper eventually going to 600 grit. This works best with a semi-gloss finish like the Teres turntable pictured above. I did achieve a high gloss using Wipe-On on this project.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20237.)
The limit of Wipe-On is once you get it thick enough for a high-gloss its yellow or golden tint becomes apparent. How serious this is as a limitation will depend on the veneer or stain color you are working on top of.
3. Lacquer and shellac can also be DIY friendly. There are so many formulations and techniques you have to research, select, and test. Today many “lacquer” and “shellac” are environmental friendly chemistries that do not necessarily behave like traditional formulations. Specifically we want to be aware if the selected material has solvents that soften the previous layer as coats are layered on top of previous layers. Many present chemistries link the polymers together during cure and later coats just paint on top of undercoats. Look at the recoat instructions and if it says to apply layers within some short time or wait hours and sand prior to recoating it is the later type. For that deep gloss the layers need to be homogeneous and not reveal layers if high spots of a layer are sanded off while leveling. I have had very good results using rattle can lacquer from the hardware store with say ten coats and lots of sanding during the final coats. Downsides are the time and chemical stink. Also lacquer and shellac are not as durable as poly or epoxy.
4. Pour on epoxies I have used include Famowood Glazecoat and System Three’s MirrorCoat. These are by turns fantastic and frustrating. Costs increase for material is 2x or 3x or more. Add to that drop cloths, gloves, mixing cups, measuring cups (or my preferred $25 digital cooking scale), stir sticks, disposable brushes (or acetone to clean brushes), a propane torch (for popping bubbles prior to cure) and denatured alcohol for surface prep and cleanup. The fantastic part is how the epoxy in one application gives a thick high gloss finish to any level horizontal surface. This is due to the self-leveling aspect of the products. Once the resin and hardener are mixed prior to cure the epoxy has the viscosity of syrup. Pour it on and it flows out and settles to a glass smooth surface. The bubbles trapped in the liquid during stirring are coaxed out with quick passes of the torch. The frustration is what about your vertical surfaces? For table tops (and perhaps a turntable plinth?) the epoxy is allowed to run over the sides and drip onto the workbench or floor. With a brush the material is spread on the sides. Then you get a thick top surface and thinner sides. The alternative is to do multiple pours turning the piece and concentrating on one side placed level and horizontal for each pour, quickly this turns into the challenge of keeping runs off the surfaces not being worked on for a given pour. Another fantastic aspect of these products is they are very low odor. The big frustrations I have had with these systems include the very long cure times and difficulty polishing. I cannot count the number of times I will execute a perfect pour, all the bubbles are popped, the runs all wiped off and a surface that looks like a show car finish. Come back in 6 hours after it has cured and there are the runs that happened an hour after you left and/or a fly that landed in the finish. This starts the cycle of sand off the imperfections and re-coat. Perhaps with an object the size of a turntable plinth one can get that perfect pour and declare success. I am working on two large subwoofers and trying to get twelve sides perfect proved quite elusive. This led me to experimenting with polishing these epoxies. The challenge is the material is a little soft once cured. Pop the cured extra out of a mix cup and if is flexible and bends without breaking. This is a good thing for a material going on wood that will move throughout its life. Not so good when trying to sand and polish. My observation is that softness makes it harder to take from semi-gloss to full high-gloss. It is alleged to be possible, personally using high tech abrasives and polishes I have yet to achieve a high-gloss.
5. My current in process experiments use a UV cure resin SolarEz solarez.com. Expense is like two part epoxy, with the added downside of some fairly nasty MEK and styrene fumes. If it works out I will be adding an organics blocking mask to my tool kit. I moved from my garage workshop to the carport to stop stinking up the house. I have also yet to get it to pour out like the two part systems. What is the upside? It cures much harder and I have high hopes for the polishing. And with UV cure instead of waiting hours (or adding more hardener and risking too short pot life) like two part systems with UV cure once you get the surface covered and level you take it into the sun and in two minutes it is cured. Yesterday I did a pair of mini-monitor boxes and I would have one curing in the sun while coating the other in the shade cycling them back and forth doing all sides in an afternoon. I expect to try the level sanding and polishing tomorrow and will report back.
So there is the data dump on my experiences with high gloss. It is a bit of a unicorn hunt but I am determined to find out what it is like to ride a unicorn. Questions/comments welcomed.
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Norman,
Thanks for your kind words and your comprehensive post!
I have not taken any pictures, but I've made up a couple laminations of plywood and MDF to practice veneering and experiment with finishes. I have an HVLP spray set up, but haven't used it yet, so will likely stick with things I've done successfully before.
I've done French polish successfully before on curly maple, and like working with shellac as it's repairable. It is not, however, durable, and I'm not sure how things like Stylast will affect if there's an accident. I've also built up gloss urethane finishes and sanded and buffed them to a mirror shine, but I wasn't always happy with the result, as it can look plastic-y. I've done quite a bit with aniline dye and rubbed oil finishes--simple, easy to repair, and can be quite beautiful with highly figured wood, but I think I want something with a bit more "sizzle" for this piece. I have not worked with lacquer, but have seen pretty impressive results from a spray can IF you "finish the finish" as you say with successively smoother abrasives and finally with automotive rubbing compounds (I wouldn't want to use a rotary polisher like the one in your picture--I much prefer a random-orbit buffer as it's less likely to damage the finish in the case of an accident).
Here's my progress today:
The glulam/CLD plinth is complete and curing!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149853)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149854)
I ended up drilling 1/4" holes all the way through the plinth to keep the layers aligned with dowels. I should have done that at the beginning and it would have saved me quite a bit of time.
I played around a bit with the tonearms and veneer to visualize finishing the pan. You can see the smallish pieces of veneer that will be used for practice veneering and finishing.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149855)
Here is a simple aniline-dyed, blonde shellac, and oil finished tonearm pod I did a few months ago. It's made from curly maple with cocobolo veneer I resawed with my bandsaw:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149856)
...and a bigger piece that preceded my tonearm pod (no veneer):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149857)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149858)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149859)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149860)
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Feeling like it's starting to come together. Got the sides veneered, as well as a few finish experiments started on my practice veneer piece.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150131)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150132)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150133)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150130)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150134)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150135)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150136)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150137)
Tomorrow I veneer the top (saved the hardest for last) and finish the finish experiments.
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Got all the veneering done!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150209)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150210)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150211)
Couldn't resist mocking it up. I think I'll like it!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150212)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150213)
Experimented with finishes--shellac with/without aniline dye stain (two colors), oil, rattle can lacquer and water-based poly. Conclusions: The stain doesn't do jack on etimoe, so I can skip that step. Shellac as a base definitely brings out the chatoyance so that will be in the final finish regimen. The lacquer is ok, but I had more flaws (cloudy spots, etc.) than with the water-based poly. I haven't gotten either of them to a gloss finish, but the water-based poly on shellac looks and buffed to a low sheen looks nice. The cell phone photos don't do a great job of highlighting the differences.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150214)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150215)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150216)
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First coat of shellac on the plinth, and a couple quick coats of lacquer on the arm boards.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150271)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150272)
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Thanks for all the nice pictures,
that will be a nice looking turntable.
Guy 13
on planet Vietnam.
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I'm enjoying this project! Cool stuff.
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Thanks Guy and Folsom. Was wondering if everyone nodded off. :lol: Also just a tad offended that no one complimented me on the rather fancy wainscoting and floral wallpaper in my shop. :wink: Yes, there is a story there.
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Thanks Guy and Folsom. Was wondering if everyone nodded off. :lol: Also just a tad offended that no one complimented me on the rather fancy wainscoting and floral wallpaper in my shop. :wink: Yes, there is a story there.
Wallpaper's nice but I like the turntable a lot better. I assumed shop was once a house...no? Do tell.
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Thanks Guy and Folsom. Was wondering if everyone nodded off. :lol: Also just a tad offended that no one complimented me on the rather fancy wainscoting and floral wallpaper in my shop. :wink: Yes, there is a story there.
Hi ACHiPO,
if I did not say anything about your (Nice) wall paper,
it's because I was concentrated - blinded by the beauty of your TT woodwork,
that's why, but if it makes you happy, yes, your wall paper is awesome. :lol: :thumb:
Guy 13
on planet Vietnam.
Maybe putting wallpaper on your TT base would make it
even more beautiful than stained wood. :lol:
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Wallpaper's nice but I like the turntable a lot better. I assumed shop was once a house...no? Do tell.
The detached garage that I use for my shop had been converted to a guest house back in the 40s. The previous sellers had to do some repairs on it that required pulling a permit, but there was no record of the guest house conversion ever being permitted, so they needed to revert it back to its prior purpose before they could get a permit for the repairs.
At some point I'll remodel it into a true man-cave, but until then it's got 3 220V outlets, lots of 110V outlets, plenty of daylight and ventilation, no one complaining about saw dust or cluttered surfaces, wainscoting, and flowered wallpaper!
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^ yeah what he said about that wall paper... Except about putting that on the tt. :green:
I used the antique oil on a couple of projects and like it very much. Cloudy lacquer/blushing, sounds like it was humid when sprayed.
Bob,
It's pretty dry here in N. California, so I don't think it was humidity. Plus it wasn't blushing, but almost like a couple huge fish eyes (1/2" dia). I don't use any silicone products, so it's not that, and I was able to recoat and rub them out, but all in all the WB poly seems easier to use. At some point I'll get motivated to rebuild my HVLP gun, build a booth, and learn how to apply good sprayed finishes.
AC
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I couldn't get that vinyl tile out of my mind enough to see the wallpaper. Someone had quite the taste. Bet they would have wrapped your TT with that vinyl tile and put the wallpaper on the sides for contrast. :duh: Looking good ACHiPo!
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I couldn't get that vinyl tile out of my mind enough to see the wallpaper. Someone had quite the taste. Bet they would have wrapped your TT with that vinyl tile and put the wallpaper on the sides for contrast. :duh: Looking good ACHiPo!
Thanks GB. I'll definitely consult you on the redecorating! :lol:
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After a week and a half road trip, finally got back to the project this morning. At this stage things are moving slowly, but definitely in the right direction.
Two coats of shellac, dry-sanded with 320 leaving the dust on the surface, then padded on two more coats to fill the pores...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150856)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150857)
I figure 4 more coats of rubbed shellac, with a "coat" defined as padding on as many passes as I can until the pad starts dragging (usually about 6-8 passes) will fill in the pores well enough to give the water-based poly a good substrate for a decent gloss finish. I may stop with the shellac if I like the finish after a few more coats.
Got the pan painted as well. I used appliance enamel which hopefully will be thick and hard enough to rub out to a good finish as well. I'm not terribly impressed with how it looks after 3 coats. I've got a buddy that owns a body shop, so if I can't get the finish I want with a rattle can I'll have him prep and shoot it.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150858)
I do like the black and etimoe color combo, though!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150859)
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Don't stop! more!
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Did one more sanding and coat this evening. I think that will be the last sanding of shellac, as I've now gotten to the point where I don't seem to be filling in the grain/pores any more, and it seems like I'm removing shellac on the high spots all the way down to the veneer. I'll give it a few more coats tomorrow, then let the finish outgas/cure for a few days before starting the water-based poly.
I did get the bearing cleaned and the spindle polished. I'll rebuild the motor tomorrow between coats.
The pan paint turned out better than I thought. I think a quick wet sanding with 600 and 1000 grit followed with a buffing should give it an acceptable finish. Gonna give the paint a full week to cure before trying to rub it out (maybe longer--will do some research on how long the paint takes to fully cure).
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Lookey what showed up in the mail today--Aluminati's 1250g stainless record weight. Not quite like running a second platter, but should help inertia a bit and actually usable with the TransFi tonearm.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150947)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150948)
I'm thinking a bit of Herbies Grunge material on the rim will be a nice addition, not to mention provide a bit of padding if I drop the mother!
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I've started reading about this stuff...
How much power does the motor take? I believe I have an easy way to adapt a 50hz to 60hz.
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I've started reading about this stuff...
How much power does the motor take? I believe I have an easy way to adapt a 50hz to 60hz.
Not much, but I'm not sure how much (it uses a 1A fuse at 110V). There's an article on a speed controller here:
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=3440.0
You can also do a mechanical mod to adjust a 50 Hz unit to run on 60 Hz.
There are other PCBs/kits on Lenco Heaven as well. I decided to skip the hassle and found a 60 Hz 110V model.
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I'll check it out, thanks.
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Definitely gaining on it! Gave up on padding the finish as the pores were taking forever to fill. Ordered this stuff:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151329)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151331)
And had at it. It only took two coats to fill in the pores, then 6 more coats of brushed-on shellac leaves me here:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151332)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151330)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151333)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151334)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151335)
Still need to rub out the finish. I've got a couple areas where the veneer is a few thousandths above the surrounding area. If I can't build up the shellac adequately to level the surface I may need to give up on a gloss finish and settle for a satin finish.
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Nice work Evan..... :drool:
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Careful, sometimes it's better to just leave it alone...
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Careful, sometimes it's better to just leave it alone...
Now where's the adventure in that? :wink:
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Is that TransFi going to swing around a bit?
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Is that TransFi going to swing around a bit?
Probably--this is just a glamour shot to make sure everything fits. I did get the L75 refurbed and dialed in at 33.3 and 45. The tonearms are close, but still need alignment.
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I dropped down to 320 wet/dry with mineral spirits, then back up to 500 and 1000. The surface was looking decent (definitely not perfect, as there were still quite a few "shiny" spots), and I decided to give French polish another shot.
Holy cow--I was getting a "ghost" trail and everything. The pore filling definitely made a difference. I used the Camellia oil to lube the rubber and the finish started appearing. It's still not museum quality, but it looks pretty darned nice, and definitely good enough for jazz! You can see some undulations in the surface, but there's also a pretty clear image of the light bulb at a low angle, so it's pretty specular.
Anyway, I'm calling this project done! Gonna let the shellac harden overnight, then bring everything inside for assembly.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151388)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151389)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151390)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151391)
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IT'S ALIVE!!!!!
:D :thumb: :green: 8)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151470)
Just have the mono tonearm set up and playing for the time being. Still need to tweak VTA as the arm is a tad too high even with two Vibra-Stop mats, but Lester is sounding divine and more importantly (for the moment) there are no strange noises from the turntable or cartridge!
Life is good!
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You did a really nice job on that plinth :green:. Good to see the Pioneer arm in use and making music. :thumb:
Now, after all that work, tell us about the sound.
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Yes, can't wait to hear more.
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You did a really nice job on that plinth :green:. Good to see the Pioneer arm in use and making music. :thumb:
Now, after all that work, tell us about the sound.
Scott,
Thanks. Before I get to the sound I just want to say I thought I was building this massive, heavy, vibration absorbing and repelling plinth. And I did. But when I lifted my old Well Tempered Turntable off its perch I realized my 40 lb turntable was light by about 20 lbs. That WTT is one heavy sucker!
Anyway, no epiphanies, but then again after only spinning one LP, and one that I'm not terribly familiar with, I'm not at all disappointed. In fact, I'm delighted there weren't more issues (hums, buzz, etc.) and the fact that Lester's sax came swimmingly through was very nice indeed.
I am looking forward to getting the TransFi tonearm set up, first with the AT 150 MLX MM cartridge, then with the Lyra Kleos.
I'll post more updates as I get them.
AC
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Are you highly familiar with setting up a cartridge?
Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance. Sometimes what it takes is A LOT. Ideally we'd all have good microscopes to view.. but there are good test discs, I'm eyeballing one on AcousticSounds.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151472)
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Are you highly familiar with setting up a cartridge?
Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance. Sometimes what it takes is A LOT. Ideally we'd all have good microscopes to view.. but there are good test discs, I'm eyeballing one on AcousticSounds.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151472)
Wow that's pretty amazing. I had to cant the WTT arm about 2 degrees due to the dished platter, but the advantage was not antiskating was needed. I use Feickert protractor for alignment of the pivoted arm, and Adjust+ for azimuth and VTA finetuning.
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Azimuth must be measured by the difference in output between the channels.
What you see in that picture gives correct sound. Stock was perfectly parallel, but it was wrong. The center image was impossible and right channel very weak until it was set correctly. The problem is that it's somewhat intense and changes the tracking a little, needing more pressure to prevent skating.
VTA can be set with a microscope that has an angle display, otherwise it's essentially by ear.
The problem is consistency (at all price points) for the tip being inserted into the needle, is not that great.
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Got the Pioneer PA-70 VTA adjusted by eye (tonearm level with the record) and the Miyajima Zero is sounding absolutely splendid with Louis Prima this morning! Bass slam is fantastic, as is tonality of reeds and brass. Drums just sound right, as do vocals. Will need to get the stereo cartridge set up before I can listen to my reference "Kind of Blue" for a more objective comparative. Until then I'm groovin' on my mono records!
Will need to get out my USB microscope and Feickert's Adjust+ in the next few days to dial things in further. I'm not sure how critical alignment is with a mono cartridge?
One of the things I like about the TransFi tonearm is the precision of adjusting all aspects of cartridge alignment, which should allow me to dial in the Lyra Kleos to actually hear an improvement over the Delos (my WTT Reference was forgiving, but also I suspect not the best arm to get the most out of the Kleos).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151482)
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Are you highly familiar with setting up a cartridge?
Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance. Sometimes what it takes is A LOT. Ideally we'd all have good microscopes to view.. but there are good test discs, I'm eyeballing one on AcousticSounds.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151472)
Azimuth must be measured by the difference in output between the channels.
What you see in that picture gives correct sound. Stock was perfectly parallel, but it was wrong. The center image was impossible and right channel very weak until it was set correctly. The problem is that it's somewhat intense and changes the tracking a little, needing more pressure to prevent skating.
VTA can be set with a microscope that has an angle display, otherwise it's essentially by ear.
The problem is consistency (at all price points) for the tip being inserted into the needle, is not that great.
Wow, that's a bizarre photo. Azimuth is not a measure of equal output. It's set to minimize crosstalk - not the same thing. This is done by having the moving system parallel to the record surface. It's commonly thought that the lateral angle of the needle in-groove, is the determining factor. It is not.
It's the movements of the cantilever which trigger the generator. The needle can actually be off slightly (if not precisely set at the factory), for minimum crosstalk. If the needle is off a degree or two, it will still bounce off the groove walls much the same as if perfectly aligned, but if the moving system is skewed like that for equal output, something is definitely wrong and the Analogue Test LP won't be much help.
I suggest putting it back so it looks "normal", with the cart body parallel to the record. Then troubleshoot the system. It could be a wiring problem or something similar.
The protractor and software ACHiPo is using for alignment and azimuth is more advanced than the test record. I can't say exactly what's wrong with the set-up, but I suspect if you switch leads on the cart, you might find out.
Good luck,
neo
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Crosstalk is determined by measuring the difference in output between each channel. In order to fine tune it, you check the non-playing channel's output. To even be in that ball park your right and left channel need to be close in output. This cannot be true if the tip isn't making proper contact. Once it is you're finding the best position for the least amount of output to the other channel which is a balance because there will be some. The test record (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/35532/Analogue_Productions-The_Ultimate_Analogue_Test_LP-Turntable_Set_Up_Tools) has two tracks that are either right or left 1khz.
You're correct to say, "that shouldn't be right" but that is how the tip is inserted into my stylus. It can be seen with the naked eye to be off, if you look close and have the vision in the right light. It WOULD sound better if it didn't need the extreme tilt, because the magnet system would be better aligned with pressure that worked better. However, the photo is indeed correct. It does not take an expert to hear the difference. And you're correct that you don't "balance" left and right channels with Azimuth, but you still have to find the center; and it might be way off if the stylus is like mine.
Here's a video where Michael Fremer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQDa7suJn64) talks about setting up a turntable. His suggestion, of course, is to return a cartridge/stylus that has a tip so poorly inserted, but talks plenty about how extreme angles are necessary for correctness in poorly made units.
But, by all means, if you prefer dumpy sound don't adjust to the correct position. Hopefully you won't have as bad of a stylus as I do. But once you get it right, it sure does sound better. BTW when I play a CD I have no right/left issues. Everything is fine except my stylus.
*If my tip was inserted the other direction it would have skated all the time, as it would have only held some pressure to the outside grove.
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I've actually twisted a cantilever on a Denon mono cartridge to better align the stylus, using a dissecting microscope, forceps, rubber sheeting, and a steady hand... maybe 30 degrees. Not for the faint of heart.
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:o , and you have trouble soldering?
One time I bent one, and I tried to fix it. It wasn't a surgical procedure... more a vocal fit of blasphemy.
I went back to take another pic. It may not be as extreme as it looked in first photo. It's still sad quality control.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151494)
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:o , and you have trouble soldering?
One time I bent one, and I tried to fix it. It wasn't a surgical procedure... more a vocal fit of blasphemy.
:icon_lol:
Sounds like it was a character-building experience! All of my interactions more intimate than cleaning with styli have not been at all positive, so I feel your pain!
My two Lyras are pretty much dead on using the flat Lenco platter. Because the WTT platter is dished, and the record is clamped, the record surface is about 2 degrees from horizontal, thus the cartridge azimuth needs to be about 2 degrees to minimize cross-talk. My adjustments by ear matched pretty closely my adjustments using the Feickert Adjust+ once I received it. It wasn't until I got the Adjust+, however, that I figured out what was going on.
When I started using the Lenco it confirmed my hypothesis that it was the WTT platter that drove the need for such a big azimuthal angle. One other interesting thing was that the Zero, because of its low-slung construction, actually had problems tracking the inner groove on some LPs on the WTT. At first I blamed the records as they were new-to-me, but then I realized that on some records a portion of the cartridge was actually bottoming out on the inner grooves as they are flatter than the outer grooves with the WTT platter. I'm not sure how much it matters on a mono cartridge, but the Zero stylus/cantilever looks spot-on with a magnifier.
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Folsom,
What you said the first time:
"Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance."
Crosstalk is not L/R balance, although balance is affected, but you got it right the second time. What I said about tips, cantilevers, and moving systems is correct although it tends to pertain more to hand made MCs. Check this out:
http://www.lpgear.com/category/GOLD.html
Evan,
There is no crosstalk with a mono cart. If it looks spot on with magnification, it probably is. You could play around with it searching for highest output, but I wonder if it would be worth the effort.
neo
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Outstanding work on your build! It looks great!
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Azimuth appears to us as L/R problems until it's very close to correct. Then as you get it fine tuned it is more definition and detail.
I have a cool idea to reduce noise significantly on a Lenco, which I'll probably do on mine. It requires mounting the arms much higher.
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Outstanding work on your build! It looks great!
Thanks!
Got the TransFi arm aligned and plumbed. I'm listening to a crappy used record with an AT150/ATN100E cartridge. No strange noises! When I have more confidence in the set up (and my ability to use it) I'll pop on the 150 MLX stylus and listen to a few better records.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151510)
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Ok, so I couldn't wait. Put on a decent copy of Little Feat "Let it Roll" and roll it does! :thumb:
Still running the 100E stylus, but it sounds pretty darned good. Looking forward to getting on a familiar cartridge with a better stylus!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151511)
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Nice looking table and arm. I just got a Trans-Fi Terminator arm recently to put on my custom Lenco build--over 100 lbs. with many of Jean Nantais' mods. I've heard it with an Origin Live Silver II arm and it was very nice. Looking forward to having the straight line tracking air bearing tonearm again. Used to have a Maplenoll Ariadne and loved the sound. The potential for an air leak or pump failure was too high and I sold it about 6 years ago.
Looking forward to more of your observations on the sound of your unit. Good Luck and enjoy the music.
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Nice looking table and arm. I just got a Trans-Fi Terminator arm recently to put on my custom Lenco build--over 100 lbs. with many of Jean Nantais' mods. I've heard it with an Origin Live Silver II arm and it was very nice. Looking forward to having the straight line tracking air bearing tonearm again. Used to have a Maplenoll Ariadne and loved the sound. The potential for an air leak or pump failure was too high and I sold it about 6 years ago.
Looking forward to more of your observations on the sound of your unit. Good Luck and enjoy the music.
Bob,
Our builds sound similar, although the mass of mine is quite a bit less than yours. The Lenco rebuild included a Si3N4 spindle bearing, a new precision idler wheel, PTFE idler bushings and a brass idler clamp replacing the circlip. I also damped the idler arm with Teflon and silicone tape. I still have Dynamat to add a bit more mass to the pan and motor, but wanted to get it up and running for a baseline before additional tweaks.
The TransFi arm is sounding fantastic, even with the inexpensive AT100E stylus--much better than the 150 MLX sounded with either the Pioneer or WTT arm. I plan to swap in the 150MLX stylus tonight and give it a listen. I bought a second wand so I can swap between MC and MM relatively easily. I am very impressed with the sound of the TransFi arm, and it was amazingly simple to dial in, although I still need to get the Adjust+ record out for final alignment of both arms.
Listening to a little Paul DeLay this morning...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151515)
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Bob,
Our builds sound similar, although the mass of mine is quite a bit less than yours. The Lenco rebuild included a Si3N4 spindle bearing, a new precision idler wheel, PTFE idler bushings and a brass idler clamp replacing the circlip. I also damped the idler arm with Teflon and silicone tape. I still have Dynamat to add a bit more mass to the pan and motor, but wanted to get it up and running for a baseline before additional tweaks.
The TransFi arm is sounding fantastic, even with the inexpensive AT100E stylus--much better than the 150 MLX sounded with either the Pioneer or WTT arm. I plan to swap in the 150MLX stylus tonight and give it a listen. I bought a second wand so I can swap between MC and MM relatively easily. I am very impressed with the sound of the TransFi arm, and it was amazingly simple to dial in, although I still need to get the Adjust+ record out for final alignment of both arms.
Listening to a little Paul DeLay this morning...
...
Good to hear it's working out for you and the table looks beautiful!
Please share the setup process with the Adjust+ on the T3Pro, as I'm not quite sure how you'd use it for this arm. Generally I've found the T3 not to be fussy at all with setup, once everything was square and level. The very low air pressure required also makes it much more live-able than the ET3 I used to have long ago, with surge tanks and such. I'm using mine with a Miyajima Kansui and though it's very low output, it sounds terrific on the Terminator.
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Here's an article (http://www.analogplanet.com/content/crazy-little-thing-called-azimuth-part-2#ORK0iv9y1kglbGhT.97) on finishing up the ultimate in sound quality, that I was talking about.
I'm excited about when I get to build one now. This thread may be my undoing, I'm sure I'll start sooner because of it!
And I'm seriously thinking about the Terminator, now, too.
My build will be a bit more complicated due to the way I want to arrange the first platter as a flywheel, and have a second that only touching in the center so it will be isolated from a significant amount of the noise of the idler wheel.
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Good to hear it's working out for you and the table looks beautiful!
Please share the setup process with the Adjust+ on the T3Pro, as I'm not quite sure how you'd use it for this arm. Generally I've found the T3 not to be fussy at all with setup, once everything was square and level. The very low air pressure required also makes it much more live-able than the ET3 I used to have long ago, with surge tanks and such. I'm using mine with a Miyajima Kansui and though it's very low output, it sounds terrific on the Terminator.
Tom,
I've got to admit I'm not sure how I'll use the Adjust+ just yet. Obviously I can use it for setting azimuth, but I was amazed how easy it was to dial in the alignment from the get go. Not having to worry about a pivot makes things much easier.
About the only things that I'm not crazy about with the Terminator are placing/removing records is tricky--will want to stick to digital or mono if wine is involved--and getting at the stylus to clean is a bit challenging, but that's because of the way I installed it rather than the tonearm design itself.
I'm delighted with the performance I'm getting.
AC
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Here's an article (http://www.analogplanet.com/content/crazy-little-thing-called-azimuth-part-2#ORK0iv9y1kglbGhT.97) on finishing up the ultimate in sound quality, that I was talking about.
I'm excited about when I get to build one now. This thread may be my undoing, I'm sure I'll start sooner because of it!
And I'm seriously thinking about the Terminator, now, too.
My build will be a bit more complicated due to the way I want to arrange the first platter as a flywheel, and have a second that only touching in the center so it will be isolated from a significant amount of the noise of the idler wheel.
Folsom,
There are a lot of stacked platter designs on LencoHeaven, although it sounds like your concept is almost like a Kronos?
Thanks for the link to Fremer's azimuth article--I'll check it out.
Building the table was fun for me, and I got the chance to learn quite a bit, including veneering, which I will definitely do more of in the future. The Lenco is a pretty nice foundation for a hot-rod table!
I am still intrigued by the concept of resin and bentonite for a plinth, but had I tackled that I'd still be working on it, so I'm glad I stuck closer to my comfort zone.
AC
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No, not like the Kronos. The Kronos has a motor applied to the top platter. My sole intention really is to avoid just that.
I'm thinking I'll use corian cutting boards.
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Tom,
I've got to admit I'm not sure how I'll use the Adjust+ just yet. Obviously I can use it for setting azimuth, but I was amazed how easy it was to dial in the alignment from the get go. Not having to worry about a pivot makes things much easier.
About the only things that I'm not crazy about with the Terminator are placing/removing records is tricky--will want to stick to digital or mono if wine is involved--and getting at the stylus to clean is a bit challenging, but that's because of the way I installed it rather than the tonearm design itself.
I'm delighted with the performance I'm getting.
AC
Check these mods out. I already have the nylon grub screws from Vic.
https://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/terminator-tonearm-pt-iii-stop-the-chatter/ (https://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/terminator-tonearm-pt-iii-stop-the-chatter/)
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Check these mods out. I already have the nylon grub screws from Vic.
https://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/terminator-tonearm-pt-iii-stop-the-chatter/ (https://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/terminator-tonearm-pt-iii-stop-the-chatter/)
It looks like my arm came with the nylon grub screws?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151580)
The rubber transom looks interesting, but I think I'll rock with my current get-up for the time being.
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I swapped the 150 MLX stylus for the 100E. Things seem to have gotten a bit better, but not by a huge margin. Then again I'm listening to punk rock recorded in 1981, so that could have a little bit to do with the sound quality.
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Beautiful table Evan.
Have you thought about adding mass? Maybe you could put some metal/lead on the bottom and not mess up the look.
neo
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Beautiful table Evan.
Have you thought about adding mass? Maybe you could put some metal/lead on the bottom and not mess up the look.
neo
Neo,
I may do that--I've got about 5 lbs of lead I can apply in addition to the Dynamat. I still need to add the steel bearing brace on the bottom of the plinth, so when I do that I'll see what else I can do. I figure the plinth is about 40 lbs. The TransFi doesn't weigh much, but the Pioneer arm and Lenco add about 15 lbs, so the whole thing is 55-60 lbs.
Right now I'm listening to a mono Nilsson Pandemonium Shadow Show and it sounds awesome.
AC
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You're not done till you need a freight elevator and a beastly handtruck.
This (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/65758/Musical_Surroundings-The_Fozgometer_Azimuth_Range_Meter-Turntable_Set_Up_Tools) is super cool. Expensive, but time saving and probably a good investment for a turntable nut. I'm thinking if I ever get all the tools I'll provide a service to people to setup their tables.
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You're not done till you need a freight elevator and a beastly handtruck.
This (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/65758/Musical_Surroundings-The_Fozgometer_Azimuth_Range_Meter-Turntable_Set_Up_Tools) is super cool. Expensive, but time saving and probably a good investment for a turntable nut. I'm thinking if I ever get all the tools I'll provide a service to people to setup their tables.
Folsom,
I looked at the Fozgometr, but ultimately decided on Feickert. It works very well, and is not a uni-tasker.
AC
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I think what Pete is talking about (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9097-Azimuth-adjustment-the-easy-way&p=261971&viewfull=1#post261971) sounds great. Here's the software (http://www.adjustplus.de/?lang=en).
But to be perfectly honest I don't believe it could be much better than my ears and adjustments. At least not on my table as I cannot anymore finely seem to adjust it due to cheapness. One you hit the correct azimuth it's like a huge upgrade in the depth of the music you get. This may not be easy for everyone to do by ear - I practice changing stuff and listening very frequently when I'm designing audio stuff and have nothing left but subjective [negligible measurements] aspects to toy with.
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Hey ACHiPo, good call on that Paul DeLay... I don't know that particular album, but great, underappreciated player and singer.
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Hey ACHiPo, good call on that Paul DeLay... I don't know that particular album, but great, underappreciated player and singer.
DB,
Thanks. I saw him a few times in Portland. Great harp player, but destined to live the blues. Died much too young.
AC
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Neo,
I may do that--I've got about 5 lbs of lead I can apply in addition to the Dynamat. I still need to add the steel bearing brace on the bottom of the plinth, so when I do that I'll see what else I can do. I figure the plinth is about 40 lbs. The TransFi doesn't weigh much, but the Pioneer arm and Lenco add about 15 lbs, so the whole thing is 55-60 lbs.
Right now I'm listening to a mono Nilsson Pandemonium Shadow Show and it sounds awesome.
AC
I must have misread your previous post talking about the weight relative to your WTT. 55-60 lbs. is rather substantial. Not sure how much good extra mass would do, but lead is a terrific vibration killer. Considering the plinth is made out of one kind of ply, that 5 lbs. might help?
You did a great job with the plinth, it's a thing of beauty.
neo
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I must have misread your previous post talking about the weight relative to your WTT. 55-60 lbs. is rather substantial. Not sure how much good extra mass would do, but lead is a terrific vibration killer. Considering the plinth is made out of one kind of ply, that 5 lbs. might help?
You did a great job with the plinth, it's a thing of beauty.
neo
Neo,
Thanks. I'm pretty particular, and while it's not perfect, I'm very pleased with how it turned out.
The plinth is actally two materials--Baltic Birch (BB) plywood and MDF. The top two layers of BB are a "glulam" using wood glue to bond them (minimal damping, just mass). The layers below are alternating MDF and BB bonded with elastomeric polyurethane adhesive for constrained-layer damping. The tonearms are mounted rigidly to the lower layers, with the idea being vibrations from the motor, idler, and bearing have to go down into the CLD, getting damped before going back up to the tonearms. The whole thing sits on Herbies Gliders feet, which sit on a 3" slab of ~18"x42" maple (~50 lbs), which sits on Herbies Grunge dots and a solid maple rack.
It seems to work. Not only do both tonearms sound great, but I have to rap very hard on the plinth to hear anything through the stylus. I can jump up and down and thump on the shelf and rack with nothing audible through the stylus.
I did add lead to the Pioneer arm board, but there are other strategic spots I can beef up as well.
AC
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I've started reading about this stuff...
How much power does the motor take? I believe I have an easy way to adapt a 50hz to 60hz.
Folsom,
I recently saw somewhere that the motor is 10W.
AC
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Hi Achipo,
Thanks for your post as it was really interesting to read about your build. I'm feeling very envious of your skills.
Hope it sounds great.
Cheers Rod
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Hi Achipo,
Thanks for your post as it was really interesting to read about your build. I'm feeling very envious of your skills.
Hope it sounds great.
Cheers Rod
Rod,
Thanks! It was a fun challenge and I'm loving the way it sounds.
AC
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AC,
Very nice job. If you want a significant improvement in sound, you should get the JTN string/weight mod from Jean Nantais. I have the Mirko bearing, Audiosaliente idler wheel, and most of the other Lenco thread upgrades. By far, the JTN s/w mod made the biggest improvement. It replaces the spring that pulls the idler wheel to the drive shaft by using a weight at the end of the string that hangs down so it pulls the wheel snugly to the drive shaft and platter. It takes about 30 minutes to install. I have the Platter Ground from Star Sound Technologies coming this week. It functions for the TT what the Sistrum racks and platforms do for the sound--make it more live, dynamic, transparent and real. I have all my components on the Sistrum rack and my speakers are on the SP-101s also. This eliminates the use of a weight but is said to make a great difference in live sound. It sits over the spindle but doesn't touch it. Robert at SST says you will hear much more information from the record. Everything he has told me has been true about draining the mechanical vibrations quickly to the ground and the difference it will make in sound. These 2 items will make a BIG combined difference in the quality of the sound. The JTN mod is $75 and the Platter Ground costs $199.
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AC,
Very nice job. If you want a significant improvement in sound, you should get the JTN string/weight mod from Jean Nantais. I have the Mirko bearing, Audiosaliente idler wheel, and most of the other Lenco thread upgrades. By far, the JTN s/w mod made the biggest improvement. It replaces the spring that pulls the idler wheel to the drive shaft by using a weight at the end of the string that hangs down so it pulls the wheel snugly to the drive shaft and platter. It takes about 30 minutes to install. I have the Platter Ground from Star Sound Technologies coming this week. It functions for the TT what the Sistrum racks and platforms do for the sound--make it more live, dynamic, transparent and real. I have all my components on the Sistrum rack and my speakers are on the SP-101s also. This eliminates the use of a weight but is said to make a great difference in live sound. It sits over the spindle but doesn't touch it. Robert at SST says you will hear much more information from the record. Everything he has told me has been true about draining the mechanical vibrations quickly to the ground and the difference it will make in sound. These 2 items will make a BIG combined difference in the quality of the sound. The JTN mod is $75 and the Platter Ground costs $199.
Bob,
Thanks. I've read about the string/weight mod, but have also read that it shouldn't make a difference ('course that doesn't mean it doesn't). Good to hear your positive results.
AC