AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: lazbisme on 27 Sep 2022, 10:21 pm
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I am considering these for use with my X3s and would be interested in thoughts of those who have heard them both. Or, heard them both and chose something else! Only in the beginning phases of thinking about changing from my 2.3watt SET amp or maybe a pair of them series coupled for 2 at 6watts each. Most of the time one is sufficient but just need more headroom on some music. Orchestral music with large dynamic range is particularly troublesome. 12 x 30 x 8 room and do not listen at high levels. Anything over about 80dB is uncomfortable to me. Appreciate your thoughts
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Which LTA integrated? z10, z40+, zotl ultralinear+?
I have the z40+ integrated. I was too impatient to wait for the Vahalla amp and haven't heard it.
I have the X5s, not the X3s.
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not far enough along to decide which model. All are in the picture right now. Why did you pick that amp over others under consideration?
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1. Spatial Audio Lab speakers at shows are often times paired with LTA speakers and the sound samples I've heard were terrific.
2. LTA amps use the tubes in a way so that the tubes last longer.
3. I hunt for stuff used and I found the LTA z40+ with almost all upgrades (other than the EL34s) at about $3,000 below new price. It has the phono preamp and the SUT as well so fully equipped it is an expensive puppy new. That was important because eventually I want to combine my turntable into the system. Right now everything is fairly disorganized in my office but I have plans to retire within a year or so. When I get rid of my office stuff, I'll set up a proper system.
4. I was using a Rogers High Fidelity 65V2 and really liked the sound with EL34s.
5. I contacted Don Sachs before I got the Rogers and it would have been a 6 month wait for a Vahalla and I am too impatient.
6. The LTA z40+ didn't actually knock my socks off until I replaced all of the tubes and I think I have it zeroed it. It is my first taste of a high quality (and expensive) amp and I'm looking at it as an endgame amp. It has really nice detail, my tube tweaks brought back the sweet midrange I was looking for without losing detail and it is fast.
7. When I first joined AC, I read a bunch of the threads on the best amps which discussed these amps. Some of the posters preferred the Ultralinear so they can maybe give you their two cents. I have very little experience with tube amps. Early on, there was a local poster who let me come and listen and we compared his Carver Crimson 275 to his First Watt J2 and we both preferred the tube amp and thought the SS sounded a bit thin. That sold me on the idea of tube amps even though I had never owned any previously. (This was around summer of 2021 as I got the X5s (used) in May of 2021).
8. I've listened to Clayton on YouTube and he seems to have a variety of amps he likes with the speakers including Don Sachs stuff, Atma-Sphere and LTA. Every once in a while a poster comes up with a new idea. The class D stuff is intriguing but I don't think I want a huge bank of amps like Tyson to mix and match. I want just one and a sound I love.
Here's the link for the z40+ i:
https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/z40-integrated-amplifier
The website links some reviews which are interesting. The Enjoythemusic review also brings in the Ultralinear for comparison.
I think the poster, Doggie, tried the z10 and the Ultralinear and preferred the Ultralinear but that was in 2021 so he might be into something completely different now. He also has X5s. The link to his post is https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177630.msg1869632#msg1869632
Happy to answer any other questions that I can in my limited experiences with this stuff.
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Lazbizme
Might want to have a conversation with Clayton. He has Don's equipment and LTA's in his Spatial showroom. Probably best to speak to him privately as I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to choose one over the other on a public forum. I have Don's pre with an LTA Reference 40+ amp and it's a nice combo but I'm waiting on Don to build me a new amp as we speak and then the LTA will be for sale. Hopefully the new amp will be the last for this here old guy. (Famous last words.)
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I've heard both the Sachs and the LTA. The LTA is definitely less traditional tube sound. It's clean, fast and clear. But I like more harmonics and warmth to the sound. So the Don Sachs would be my choice.
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I had them both in my system a few months back. I had the Don Sachs Kootenay with the Don Sachs Pre vs the LTA Reference 40 Integrated with the Mullard tubes, ie top of the line LTA. I kept the LTA for about one month. First impressions of the LTA were off the charts and I thought I’d love it and keep it forever. Then I got the Kootenay and did a few direct A/B comparisons over a month or so and sold the LTA thereafter. The tone, timbre, and warmth of the Don Sachs won me over. In my system, with my tastes, it was a very easy decision to stick with the Don Sachs. For the record, as synergy is key, the rest of my system are Spatial X3’s and an Aurender N100 feeding an Audio Mirror IV SE Dac.
The key thing to keep in mind is that at this high level, choosing either one is a win, right? There is no right or wrong ime or better or worse, it’s just like do you prefer chocolate or strawberry ice cream? The LTA delivers great spatial cues, with clarity, speed and detail. Oodles of detail. The Don Sachs brings out detail, but what sticks out is the harmonics, tone and timbre.
Sure hope this helps. Using words to describe sounds is not a specialty of the English language.
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I think the poster, Doggie, tried the z10 and the Ultralinear and preferred the Ultralinear but that was in 2021 so he might be into something completely different now. He also has X5s. The link to his post is https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177630.msg1869632#msg1869632
I have owned several LTA amps but only the Ultralinear Integrated Plus with my X5's. It is a great combination. For me the UL amp is the best of both worlds (tube/SS): great detail, refinement and depth while still having tube magic. I also have a Lampizator Baltic 3 tube DAC that allows me to try out different tubes to "dial in" the sound to my own tastes. For me this is an end game setup.
The integrated LTA amps are also an especially good deal as they have a lot of flexibility, remove a set of interconnects, and save on space.
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Thanks to all the responses! Seems to be a "you pays your money and you takes your chances" unless "ears on" trials can be arranged. I have a while before I could make the move so will continue down the road. Again, thanks and really appreciate the time and effort required to post your thoughts and experiences!
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When I was auditioning the Spatial speakers at their shop, I first listened to the M3s and X5s powered by an LTA (I believe it was the Z10, though I'm not positive about that). I'd seen some videos and read some reviews of the M3, and, driven by the LTA, they were impressive, but not enough to make me want to switch from my Heritage Specials. Then Cloud hooked the speakers up to the Don Sachs Valhalla and I knew instantly that was the sound I wanted. While some aspects of an amp's or a speaker's sound may be demonstrable - soundstage, bass extension, etc - how one responds to or cares about those things is personal, and the judgement of overall sound is subjective, so (and, of course, I'm not saying anything you don't know) though it may be possible to point to certain things a particular amp, speaker, or combination of the two does "better" than another, it is impossible for anyone to say which a given person will prefer. That said, I far preferred the Don Sachs to the LTA. The tone was richer, the presentation more vital, more real, more present (I hesitate to say more forward, as that often has a pejorative connotation), but, mostly, it got my attention, not by being exceptionally clear or crisp or lush or any one specific quality, but by being engaging, immediately and unmistakably moving; I simply couldn't deny my response to the music, especially combined with the X5s. I was so smitten with this combination that I sold my Heritage Specials, which I loved, and bought a pair of X5s and ordered a Valhalla from Don Sachs, which I got about two weeks ago. It took about 5 months to get it - Don is building only part-time now - but it was well worth the wait. I'm new to tubes, so I'm sure I'm bathing in the glow of their newness, and some of that glow is no doubt being reflected in my writing about them, but there is no question the Valhalla demonstrably does everything better than my SS Classe CA-2300 (which is a fine amp) and is, in my admittedly limited experience, by far the best amp I've owned. If you want to bore yourself with more of my take on the Valhalla, I posted here on AC a revoltingly gushing panegyric on my first impressions of it under a post entitled Tube Newb. As many have said, they're both great amps. Reading everyone's opinions probably won't help you make a decision, but it's part of the fun. Good luck!
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Doggie, do you know the differences between the Ultralinear + and the z40+ integrateds? Also, can you clarify your statement about removing a set of interconnects or is that referring to the fact that an integrated amp doesn't need a preamp?
I get other posters' views on the more tubey sound of Sach's products and, as I mentioned, I was not happy with the sound of the z40+ integrated when I first got it although I was impressed by the clarity and speed of the sound. I did change out all of the tubes and got what I think was a more tubey sound along with the clarity and speed.
To those who have heard both, how does the Sachs' Vahalla compare to the LTA on the detail and speed side? If the Vahalla is the equal or better than the LTA, it is much more affordable than the LTA so, if you are looking for a tube sound, I would say go get the Vahalla. The LTA does have some modern extras such as XLR inputs and the addition of a phono preamp (for extra). I looked at the LTA not only as an endgame solution but also as the solution to many issues including not having to add a high end phono preamp.
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To those who have heard both, how does the Sachs' Vahalla compare to the LTA on the detail and speed side? If the Vahalla is the equal or better than the LTA, it is much more affordable than the LTA so, if you are looking for a tube sound, I would say go get the Vahalla. The LTA does have some modern extras such as XLR inputs and the addition of a phono preamp (for extra). I looked at the LTA not only as an endgame solution but also as the solution to many issues including not having to add a high end phono preamp.
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I have heard both, one right after the other, so, at least at the time, was able to compare them. That was several months ago, so I'm now going on my memory of my assessment of them rather than an actual aural memory, but I'm sure I felt there was no loss of speed or detail in the Valhalla compared to the LTA. In a sense, it was the opposite. While I can't say from memory that the Valhalla was faster than the LTA, the difference in sound, in musical connection, so awareness of the detail within the music, was, after listening to the LTA, like turning on a light in a dark room. I listened to the LTA and liked it; I listened to the Valhalla and immediately wanted one. It was only one listening session, but I listened to a pretty wide variety of artists and genres, and, in my estimation, the Valhalla bested the LTA in all of them. It drew me in and compelled my attention in a way the LTA simply didn't. It's hard to say whether it was my greater attention in listening to the Valhalla that made me more aware of the detail or if in fact it just was more revealing. Either way, the result was the same: I heard more and felt more with the Valhalla, so much so that I put my money where my ears were and bought one. Also, for what it's worth, the Valhalla does have one set of XLR inputs. Of course (the usual caveats), these things are room and system and ear and taste dependent. Nevertheless, these were my subjective impressions. Hope they help a little bit.
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I'm going to assume, because I don't want to commit seppuku, that the changes I made to the tubes would change your opinion. :duh:
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I'm going to assume, because I don't want to commit seppuku, that the changes I made to the tubes would change your opinion. :duh:
If I lived nearby, we could hook them up side by side and compare them (hiding the short sword, just in case).
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Had the LTA Z40 in my space with M3TM and it just was not my cup of tea. Too analytical for my taste and music plus I hated the remote and "clicking" whenever I changed the volume level.
My Luxman SQ150n with some special 12ax7's was far more to my taste and several others who heard the comparison. I also drive the speakers with a Fi X 2a3 and a Shindo Apetite.....which at this point is my preferred amp.
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It’s interesting as to how everyone hears differently or has particular tastes in regards to how they like the presentation. I owned the Valhalla and although it is an excellent integrated, I never fell in love with it. I wanted to…..but it kept me wanting more. Fast forward to recently receiving the LTA Z40+ with Amperex EL34 tubes. Within a couple of hours, I knew this was the amp for me. It’s only getting better as I log more time on it. I’m not wanting for anything and FWIW, I perceive the Z40+ as faster and more resolving, but keeping the nice tube bloom when needed. Maybe it’s the reference + iteration that takes it to another level?
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I rarely post but popped in to this thread as a Spatial owner that owned Scott's(Sense63) Sachs integrated and ironically now own the Z40+ and Circle Labs A200 (I swear we haven't spoken in years so it happened coincidentally). I really think the world of Don and his products are amazing (as is the guy). The Z40+ and Sachs really focus on different priorities in the music and I can understand how someone would have a clear preference for either amp...Like brown butter bourbon pecan ice cream vs peppermint stick. They're both fantastic and you're going to love each of them but you will have a very clear preference between them. Based on what I own you can see my preference but you will need to experience them both for yourself to make a good decision. You know what they say about opinions...
David
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Thank both of you for your comments about the Sachs vs. LTA. (Except I'm afraid I don't like either brown butter bourbon pecan ice cream or the peppermint stick)
The thing is that I have to trust my ears and I am very happy with the z40+ i.
I do understand that it might sound too analytical and I thought so at first, but, as mentioned before, I replaced all of the tubes and got the sound I wanted.
I don't want to get into a place where I'm always hunting something new. I am happy where I'm at.
I figure there is a reason that Clayton displays his speakers in conjunction with LTA.
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Thank both of you for your comments about the Sachs vs. LTA. (Except I'm afraid I don't like either brown butter bourbon pecan ice cream or the peppermint stick)
The thing is that I have to trust my ears and I am very happy with the z40+ i.
I do understand that it might sound too analytical and I thought so at first, but, as mentioned before, I replaced all of the tubes and got the sound I wanted.
I don't want to get into a place where I'm always hunting something new. I am happy where I'm at.
I figure there is a reason that Clayton displays his speakers in conjunction with LTA.
This is of course absolutely true. Who knows why one person prefers one piece of gear to another. Or, for that matter, why that preference might change over time. You’re right to assume Clayton has good reason for demoing his speakers with LTA, and you’re equally right not to drive yourself bonkers over what another piece of gear might sound like. We all know too well how easy it is to fret about making a decision and about a decision we’ve made. I have no doubt your system sounds great. Unless one just really enjoys forever trying different gear, which I suppose is as legitimate a pursuit as any, at some point we have to find something we like and just enjoy it. It’s not that I want to go back to, or even believe in, the bliss of ignorance, but it is funny to think of the time when I was young and just listened to music. It was the same with books; I just read them without thinking of their actually having been written by people with ideas to embody and promulgate in their writing. I doubt one can ever entirely recover that level of uncritical enjoyment, or if it’s even wholly desirable - we just know too much as adults - there’s a reason the tree of knowledge was off limits - but it’s nice to revisit that place, even in small bits, when we can.
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This is of course absolutely true. Who knows why one person prefers one piece of gear to another. Or, for that matter, why that preference might change over time. You’re right to assume Clayton has good reason for demoing his speakers with LTA, and you’re equally right not to drive yourself bonkers over what another piece of gear might sound like. We all know too well how easy it is to fret about making a decision and about a decision we’ve made. I have no doubt your system sounds great. Unless one just really enjoys forever trying different gear, which I suppose is as legitimate a pursuit as any, at some point we have to find something we like and just enjoy it. It’s not that I want to go back to, or even believe in, the bliss of ignorance, but it is funny to think of the time when I was young and just listened to music. It was the same with books; I just read them without thinking of their actually having been written by people with ideas to embody and promulgate in their writing. I doubt one can ever entirely recover that level of uncritical enjoyment, or if it’s even wholly desirable - we just know too much as adults - there’s a reason the tree of knowledge was off limits - but it’s nice to revisit that place, even in small bits, when we can.
The thing about the sound of a system in this case a new amp is a sound with its use in his system, within his room acoustics, his power cords, etc. The same amp in my system might sound much different due to what I mentioned. Same amp could sound warmer or brighter in another system, then of course the preamp used would also make an impact.
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Because it is sort of on topic, here is the first review I've seen for the Z40i + (previous reviews are not for the "+")
https://twitteringmachines.com/review-linear-tube-audio-z40-integrated-amplifier/
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The thing about the sound of a system in this case a new amp is a sound with its use in his system, within his room acoustics, his power cords, etc. The same amp in my system might sound much different due to what I mentioned. Same amp could sound warmer or brighter in another system, then of course the preamp used would also make an impact.
I know that is the generally accepted wisdom, and, for the most part, I subscribe to it, though I think I do so purblindly, as I've not really heard enough of the same gear in different rooms, with different cables, preamps, etc to swear to the truth of it. I have had one glaring example of it when first hearing a pair of B&W 802 Diamonds in a well-treated showroom, then hearing them (after purchasing them) in my own too small, acoustically inadequate room. That was something of a shock. A small amount of treatment made a huge difference, but it was a lesson in showroom vs living room. I've also had the opposite experience. The Valhalla I heard at the Spatial Audio shop is the same Valhalla (not literally) I now hear in my living room. So, while we justify and make allowances based on differing equipment and circumstances, unless those differences are especially egregious (as in my showroom vs living room experience), I'm left wondering (and I know this is bordering on hifi heresy) just how significant or pronounced those differences really are. I suppose once you've introduced such a vague qualifier as "especially egregious," you've rendered the possibility of coming to any universally recognized conclusion pretty much nil. Anecdote is a powerful but unreliable measure. Then, that's part of what keeps the audiophile ball rolling.
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New review from Steve Guttenberg of the LTA z40+
https://youtu.be/epNH6ELnJ74
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My sense is that amps, whether solid state or tube, are headed either in the direction of low distortion clarity or by design 2nd 3rd harmonics with warmth….and you either pick the sound you most prefer or own both and swap them in and out depending on what you are listening to.
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I had wanted a combination which the LTA seems to bring. I had to swap all of the tubes to up the tube warmth sound index but I don't feel that I sacrificed any of the clarity and speed.
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New Record Day did a comparison of the LTA z40i, the Rogue Cronus III, the Black Ice F35, and the Galion TS 120SE. It is a long video but well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-SYzpJwLD0&t=3s
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I know that is the generally accepted wisdom, and, for the most part, I subscribe to it…
I don’t know that it’s heresy. I’m relatively early in my audiophile hobby / obsession journey (leaning obsession but not sure yet) but what I’m finding so far is YMMV is more true here than most other interests. Your speaker experience is a good example.
What you experienced is obvious differences I suspect most would hear if they’re paying attention. But many if not most discussions / pissing contests are about stuff that may not be so obvious if you’re inexperienced, your setup is incapable of revealing the subtleties, or you’re simply deaf to the differences.
I’m still building out my system and room but what I’m experiencing and learning about myself and setup already has me thinking of scaling back to a good integrated paired with a good DAC. I’m not ready to throw in the towel but I think the subtleties of separates, cables, and fractions of inches and degrees of speaker position and toe in are mostly lost on me.
That in part is what makes this thread interesting to me.
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My sense is that amps, whether solid state or tube, are headed either in the direction of low distortion clarity or by design 2nd 3rd harmonics with warmth….and you either pick the sound you most prefer or own both and swap them in and out depending on what you are listening to.
This amp caught my attention for this very reason.
https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/ia-9x/ (https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/ia-9x/)
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One's system in the end is what we enjoy. and what gear we use and room acoustics and its major impact on what we finally hear. I own a preamp that I can change the gain on its outputs. can be 0db, 6db, 12db, and finally 18db. My amp is 26db rated. from 0-18, db each step up sounds different in that you gain body, presence, and dynamics. It's like if you owned 4 different preamps. I can fully understand when we insert another preamp in our systems the sound can really change, and looking at the gain of these amps I looked at their gain and all were different some as high as 24db. I always keep my preamp at 12db and 6db if I wanted more detail and cleaner sound. I was at a dealer telling him about it and he said with your amp have you tried the 18db setting you might be surprised. Went home powered up the ML 326S preamp up the setting, turned the volume down, and let it warm up along with the MK 532H amp, put on my Chesky Test Disc, and started with Spanish Harlem by Rebbeca Piegon. My Sapphire 3's came to life like never before, the bottom end was still tight as I was used to but now with power and impact more than ever before. Vocals are larger present and detailed, and the violins open and sweet with the ebb and flow of the bow. Later played a track with horns and the impact and speed were better and real, and so on. The piano was fuller and the low end and the upper end had more detail and the attack of the real thing. Going back to the 12db settings, and adjusting the volume to match, the sound was still good, more laid back, only by comparison, midrange every even, with good body, 6db setting which my buddy likes, very clean with everything sounding even, like a recording, 0db even more so, that is like being in a passive preamp, and sounded like it all detail lacking weight and body. The thing is depending on one's tastes you really might prefer the system sounded with one of the 4 gain settings, which one is right? The one you enjoy. Myself for now 18db with a smile on my face, makes music just come alive and in the room, test sound very natural, but with body and weight to the reproduction. Now my M3s sound SO different like it is a different speaker and my point what we all hear with the same speakers can be vastly different. The Spatials speak the truth about what they are receiving and the quality of the recordings. To end if I had walked into the room and depending on the gain settings of the preamp my perception of the speakers would run from not for me, to these sound really good, and then holy mother of Mary these are good. This shows specs of the speaker do not mean they don't like/need power and in this case, the M3's love current this wakes up from the highs down with air and now you can hear what those 15' woofers can do not to mention the mid-bass and its impact on making the midrange fuller while more open and the highs airy. I am listening to a cello movement and never heard it sound so real, detailed, and with bloom and body of the instrument as now, no bloat or fatness just real and the hall around it is so real and present.
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its interesting Mr Big isn't it? I have noticed the same thing. i have a made up theory that hifi systems (with typical 2v source outputs and usual speaker sensitivity range) sound best with 40-44 dB of gain which can be made up of any combination of gain in preamp and power amp. For you 18dB + 24dB puts you in the sweet spot of 42dB overall gain for example.
I have found that lower sensitivity speakers (below 86dB for example) need not only humoungous watts from the power amp to get concert level volume but also need very gain amplification change. Passive preamp (odB) plus electrostatics (80-84dB) for example has always been a bad combo to my ears.
I have no knowledge if there is psychoacoustic science to support my made up theory.
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its interesting Mr Big isn't it? I have noticed the same thing. i have a made up theory that hifi systems (with typical 2v source outputs and usual speaker sensitivity range) sound best with 40-44 dB of gain which can be made up of any combination of gain in preamp and power amp. For you 18dB + 24dB puts you in the sweet spot of 42dB overall gain for example.
I have found that lower sensitivity speakers (below 86dB for example) need not only humoungous watts from the power amp to get concert level volume but also need very gain amplification change. Passive preamp (odB) plus electrostatics (80-84dB) for example has always been a bad combo to my ears.
I have no knowledge if there is psychoacoustic science to support my made up theory.
Your ears tell the truth. Anyone who was over at my house for a listen could hear the changes with no effort, 0db-18db. Each step up with music gains dynamics, tone, weight, and color. I like 12db a lot, and 18db also. 12db may be the more sonically balanced setting, and 18db really makes the speaker explode with impactful bass, but I like the ebb and flow of the 12db setting. But the 0db is a no-go. Odb it is then a passive preamp and it sounds like it. But the Mark Levinson preamp offers you the opportunity to use different gain settings to allow the best sonics of that input and gear, my output is 2V. from my Marantz SACD/DAC player. I think from this we can see why different preamps will sound different in the same system, their gain outputs are fixed and they can be 10db and as high as 24db, and knowing what we know each one could sound totally different dues to their gain output. The Levinson does not suffer these issues, you can max out its sound no matter the amp used or source and their voltages out. Did some more listening between the 12db gain setting and the 18db gain setting, 12db gain was better overall, and the thing is the noise floor is so low I am hearing the smallest of sounds and detail, like movement in the studio, papers flipping, etc. Same system and gear and speakers, as the Sapphires, but just a higher gain adjustment within the Mark Levinson preamp. 6Db setting is better than 0db, infact the most detailed and depending on the power cord I use it can be the best, so with a well thought out preamp like the ML 326S you can really look in the best sonics.
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I don’t know that it’s heresy. I’m relatively early in my audiophile hobby / obsession journey (leaning obsession but not sure yet) but what I’m finding so far is YMMV is more true here than most other interests. Your speaker experience is a good example.
What you experienced is obvious differences I suspect most would hear if they’re paying attention. But many if not most discussions / pissing contests are about stuff that may not be so obvious if you’re inexperienced, your setup is incapable of revealing the subtleties, or you’re simply deaf to the differences.
I’m still building out my system and room but what I’m experiencing and learning about myself and setup already has me thinking of scaling back to a good integrated paired with a good DAC. I’m not ready to throw in the towel but I think the subtleties of separates, cables, and fractions of inches and degrees of speaker position and toe in are mostly lost on me.
That in part is what makes this thread interesting to me.
It's funny, in a tragi-comic sort of way. The YMMV aspect of the hobby (I don't know why, but I dislike that word, hobby; I think it wounds my sense of self-importance) ought to bring with it a measure of relief, that there is no absolute should to our responses and preferences, and that what we like (the whole trust your ears mantra) is the true arbiter of what is, in a practical sense, good. But, for me at least, it's nigh on impossible to not get caught up in believing there is something better, and that, within our means, and sometimes beyond them (he said, shamefacedly), we should do all we can to bring about that better, that our listening experience, and, by extrapolation, our very life, will be improved by it. Part of this thinking on my part is fueled by my experiences with, as revoltingly pretentious as it sounds, writing, art, music, and wine. We've all heard the pronouncement at one time or another "I may not know art, but I know what I like." Well, okay. But contained within that pronouncement is the admission that you don't know art, and that, if you did know art, you might choose, understand, be moved by something entirely different. To me, there is something of the "I may not know, but I know" formula in "let your ears be your guide." Take the snobbery out of it, and the fact remains that a better trained eye, a more developed palate, a more educated and discerning ear, will both make one more critical and increase one's understanding and appreciation. There are sommeliers who can, blindfolded, identify type, grape varietal, year, and region of a given wine; it was said, and I believe it, that Toscanini could pick out the one instrument in an orchestral passage that had played a wrong note; a sophisticated reader will be able to recognize and explain, on a technical level, why a sonnet by John Donne is superior to any limerick. In the same way, I have no doubt there are those who can hear and identify the virtues and shortcomings of a given hifi setup and know where those shortcoming lie and how to remedy them. All of this I offer by way of illustration that, while our ears, possibly, should be our guide, our ears are also, at least potentially, capable of improvement, and, issues of cost aside, is it not better to train our ears to prefer a higher, more detailed, sonorous level of sound, so that, as with literature, music, art, and wine, we can elevate our experience, and thereby increase our enjoyment? Some say that understanding robs a thing of its magic. I have never found this to be the case. In my experience, the greater the understanding, the greater the enjoyment, the greater the amazement. So, in the hope of realizing the greater, or even only slightly better, of all those things - the room, room treatment, tonearm, cartridge, speaker cable, power cord, tube rolling, etc - the conundrum persists: to tweak or not to tweak. I suppose this is where an honest embracing of the injunction know thyself comes in. If one is certain one has attained one's listening apex, then that's it; no more searching, only listen and enjoy. But if one remains in the throes of the siren call of potential, that ever-unknown yet endlessly projected quantity, then the search will probably continue.
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I am considering these for use with my X3s and would be interested in thoughts of those who have heard them both. Or, heard them both and chose something else! Only in the beginning phases of thinking about changing from my 2.3watt SET amp or maybe a pair of them series coupled for 2 at 6watts each. Most of the time one is sufficient but just need more headroom on some music. Orchestral music with large dynamic range is particularly troublesome. 12 x 30 x 8 room and do not listen at high levels. Anything over about 80dB is uncomfortable to me. Appreciate your thoughts
Someones else's opinion is moot. Systems are different, room is different. Do your self a favor and just listen to them in YOUR system. Truly the only way to know. Synergy matters. Have fun trying.
charles
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It's funny, in a tragi-comic sort of way. The YMMV aspect of the hobby (I don't know why, but I dislike that word, hobby; I think it wounds my sense of self-importance) ought to bring with it a measure of relief, that there is no absolute should to our responses and preferences, and that what we like (the whole trust your ears mantra) is the true arbiter of what is, in a practical sense, good. But, for me at least, it's nigh on impossible to not get caught up in believing there is something better, and that, within our means, and sometimes beyond them (he said, shamefacedly), we should do all we can to bring about that better, that our listening experience, and, by extrapolation, our very life, will be improved by it. Part of this thinking on my part is fueled by my experiences with, as revoltingly pretentious as it sounds, writing, art, music, and wine. We've all heard the pronouncement at one time or another "I may not know art, but I know what I like." Well, okay. But contained within that pronouncement is the admission that you don't know art, and that, if you did know art, you might choose, understand, be moved by something entirely different. To me, there is something of the "I may not know, but I know" formula in "let your ears be your guide." Take the snobbery out of it, and the fact remains that a better trained eye, a more developed palate, a more educated and discerning ear, will both make one more critical and increase one's understanding and appreciation. There are sommeliers who can, blindfolded, identify type, grape varietal, year, and region of a given wine; it was said, and I believe it, that Toscanini could pick out the one instrument in an orchestral passage that had played a wrong note; a sophisticated reader will be able to recognize and explain, on a technical level, why a sonnet by John Donne is superior to any limerick. In the same way, I have no doubt there are those who can hear and identify the virtues and shortcomings of a given hifi setup and know where those shortcoming lie and how to remedy them. All of this I offer by way of illustration that, while our ears, possibly, should be our guide, our ears are also, at least potentially, capable of improvement, and, issues of cost aside, is it not better to train our ears to prefer a higher, more detailed, sonorous level of sound, so that, as with literature, music, art, and wine, we can elevate our experience, and thereby increase our enjoyment? Some say that understanding robs a thing of its magic. I have never found this to be the case. In my experience, the greater the understanding, the greater the enjoyment, the greater the amazement. So, in the hope of realizing the greater, or even only slightly better, of all those things, the room, room treatment, tonearm, cartridge, speaker cable, power cord, tube rolling, conundrum persists: to tweak or not to tweak. I suppose this is where an honest embracing of the injunction to know thyself comes in. If one is certain one has attained one's listening apex, then that's it; no more searching, only listen and enjoy. But if one remains in the throes of the siren call of potential, that ever-unknown yet endlessly projected quantity, then the search will probably continue.
+1
Very well written, Josh. Thank you for adding your thoughts to this discussion. :thumb:
Michael
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To keep it simple if one's system does not move them emotionally, feel the emotion of the singer then something is missing. if your system does not make you go wow! once in a while, something is missing. It's not that complicated but to get there takes some work and care of room acoustics and setup and gear matching.
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To keep it simple if one's system does not move them emotionally, feel the emotion of the singer then something is missing. if your system does not make you go wow! once in a while, something is missing. It's not that complicated but to get there takes some work and care of room acoustics and setup and gear matching.
You put the whole hifi journey in an excellent nutshell!
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I know that is the generally accepted wisdom, and, for the most part, I subscribe to it, though I think I do so purblindly, as I've not really heard enough of the same gear in different rooms, with different cables, preamps, etc to swear to the truth of it. I have had one glaring example of it when first hearing a pair of B&W 802 Diamonds in a well-treated showroom, then hearing them (after purchasing them) in my own too small, acoustically inadequate room. That was something of a shock. A small amount of treatment made a huge difference, but it was a lesson in showroom vs living room. I've also had the opposite experience. The Valhalla I heard at the Spatial Audio shop is the same Valhalla (not literally) I now hear in my living room. So, while we justify and make allowances based on differing equipment and circumstances, unless those differences are especially egregious (as in my showroom vs living room experience), I'm left wondering (and I know this is bordering on hifi heresy) just how significant or pronounced those differences really are. I suppose once you've introduced such a vague qualifier as "especially egregious," you've rendered the possibility of coming to any universally recognized conclusion pretty much nil. Anecdote is a powerful but unreliable measure. Then, that's part of what keeps the audiophile ball rolling.
Well, showroom sound vs. your in-home sound was different and that is my point. You could have the same gear and cables as mine but your Sapphires or name a speaker will sound different in your room than mine. Because your room sounds different. Cleveland Orch. has its own sound and that is due to the acoustics at Severance Hall if they play in another hall their sound would be different than in Cleveland Hall, with the same player's same instruments and live playing not from an audio system. There is no Absolute sound or "right" sound, but there is a sound that for us is the correct sound for our ears and tastes that should bring enjoyment and emotionally moves us.
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I had the LTA REF 40 plus amp with the DS pre and was very happy with that combo with my X5's. Then I talked to the guys at Spatial who have a couple different models of the LTA and some DS equipment also. From what I hear from them they love playing the Kootenay or Valhalla. And then Don brought down his new 300b offering to give them a listen and that upped the game even further. They were so convincing in their description I sold my LTA and bought one of only 2 Don Sachs 300b amps, this one I have with custom wound IT trannies from Cinemag and a couple other tweaks from his original design. I'm using 4 tungsol nos 6v6 from the 50's. I have 3 quads of 300b that I swap in and out as I still can't figure out which set I like best. And a pair of Linlai Elite e6sn7's. This is definitely the first piece I've owned that simply puts everything into place, and I've owned a LOT of equipment in my days. This is the first (and last) truly great amp I've had in my system. A friend had the integrated LTA 40 and swapped it for a used DS Kootenay and loved it. Now he longs for a DS 300b but the Kootenay, in his system, and to his ears, simply was a big step up from the LTA.
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I had the LTA REF 40 plus amp with the DS pre and was very happy with that combo with my X5's. Then I talked to the guys at Spatial who have a couple different models of the LTA and some DS equipment also. From what I hear from them they love playing the Kootenay or Valhalla. And then Don brought down his new 300b offering to give them a listen and that upped the game even further. They were so convincing in their description I sold my LTA and bought one of only 2 Don Sachs 300b amps, this one I have with custom wound IT trannies from Cinemag and a couple other tweaks from his original design. I'm using 4 tungsol nos 6v6 from the 50's. I have 3 quads of 300b that I swap in and out as I still can't figure out which set I like best. And a pair of Linlai Elite e6sn7's. This is definitely the first piece I've owned that simply puts everything into place, and I've owned a LOT of equipment in my days. This is the first (and last) truly great amp I've had in my system. A friend had the integrated LTA 40 and swapped it for a used DS Kootenay and loved it. Now he longs for a DS 300b but the Kootenay, in his system, and to his ears, simply was a big step up from the LTA.
Geerock I sent you a PM.
Steve
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@Geerock
The karna is a truly remarkable amp! It makes every other amp pale in comparison. I’ll build up mine or have Don build me one this late summer/fall. Spatial sent there’s back for Don to rebuild it to the modern mono block design. I’m missing it dearly 😪.
You put it best “it puts everything into place”
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@Geerock
The karna is a truly remarkable amp! It makes every other amp pale in comparison. I’ll build up mine or have Don build me one this late summer/fall. Spatial sent there’s back for Don to rebuild it to the modern mono block design. I’m missing it dearly 😪.
You put it best “it puts everything into place”
Don told me how much you loved that amp and how you enjoyed listening at hypersonic levels. I've found the perfect tube combo for my liking and I simply sit back and enjoy every session. No more analyzing, replays, swapping tubes and cables etc. I'm there.
I'm glad to hear you guys are up and running and that Clayton is much better. All the best to you guys.
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Well friends. I now can directly compare the Valhalla to the Z40i+ because I received my Valhalla today from Cloud. I've finally got it set up right and I'm going to need to run it a while for it to break in. Initial thoughts are that it is similar to the Z40i+ sound (I did roll all of the tubes and apparently I got a similar sound to the Valhalla at least for now). A bit more bass from the Valhalla. I have to play more music to decide if it is as fast at the LTA's bass.
Anyhow, it is really way too early to make any judgments yet. It starts at a pretty high point so that's good.
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@daryl
I’m glad to hear it’s up and going. The amp will take 50 to 100 hours to come into its own. I’ll love to hear your impressions after you have a couple weeks on it. 🤘🔊
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...
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@daryl
I’m glad to hear it’s up and going. The amp will take 50 to 100 hours to come into its own. I’ll love to hear your impressions after you have a couple weeks on it. 🤘🔊
It's going to take a while to get 50 to 100 hours as I still am a working stiff. I hope the intermittent use won't prevent me from hearing improvements as the amp opens up.
I can relate impressions so far between the two amps in this thread. The Valhalla is sweeter, separates sound better and has better bass. After playing different types of music, I was taken aback about the bass increase since I thought my X5s' bass was completely controlled by the hypex amps on the woofer but apparently that isn't all of the story.
I'm a bit pleased with myself as to the way I adjusted the Z40i+ by tube rolling essentially went towards the sound the Valhalla puts out. The Valhalla definitely sounds better with the X5s though.
One question for Cloud though. The Valhalla's volume resets every time you turn it off. I would prefer it to be at the last setting and is there a way to do that or is this part of the tube protection protocol?
I've moved the Z40i+ to drive my secondary system with Nola Boxer S3s and that sounds pretty durn good.
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HI
Yes, the Khozmo can be programmed to remember the last volume setting. I sent instructions to Cloud and he will contact you.
cheers,
Don
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HI
Yes, the Khozmo can be programmed to remember the last volume setting. I sent instructions to Cloud and he will contact you.
cheers,
Don
Thanks.
Fantastic amp!
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Well friends. I now can directly compare the Valhalla to the Z40i+ because I received my Valhalla today from Cloud. I've finally got it set up right and I'm going to need to run it a while for it to break in. Initial thoughts are that it is similar to the Z40i+ sound (I did roll all of the tubes and apparently I got a similar sound to the Valhalla at least for now). A bit more bass from the Valhalla. I have to play more music to decide if it is as fast at the LTA's bass.
Anyhow, it is really way too early to make any judgments yet. It starts at a pretty high point so that's good.
I'm glad you were able to get your hands on a Valhalla. I don't know why I'm glad. I'd like to think my being glad comes out of an altruistic impulse that finds...what? comfort? pleasure? solace? a mix of all three? in your bettering your life even that fraction more that an improved hifi experience can. Unfortunately, I suspect the source lies more closely to vanity than to altruism and I'm pleased mostly because it affirms and confirms my own assessment of the two amps. I think there's a famous Bible verse, all is vanity, or something to that effect. In any case, whatever my motives, congratulations. I hope it brings you as much pleasure as mine brings me.
Josh
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And I am glad that you are glad. Must be more of that altruism. :icon_twisted:
In any event, thanks to everyone who recommended the Valhalla. Lighting fast, great separation, great bass control, transparent etc ect.
I didn't think the LTA could be improved on but I was wrong.
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And I am glad that you are glad. Must be more of that altruism. :icon_twisted:
In any event, thanks to everyone who recommended the Valhalla. Lighting fast, great separation, great bass control, transparent etc ect.
I didn't think the LTA could be improved on but I was wrong.
And I’m glad you’re glad I’m…okay, I won’t start. I’m curious if your room is treated. Mine is not, and is also not entirely symmetrical, but I still get tremendous breadth, depth, and imaging, and the X5s do a nice job of disappearing, which I ascribe to the open baffle not having the same level of side-wall reflection issues more typical of box speakers, though I’m going off more of what I’ve read and heard people say than from any real understanding of the physics of it. Still, good as my sound is, and always looking to eke that nth bit of better out of it, I wonder if some room treatment would improve it. With my old system, which included a pair of B&W 802 Diamonds in a far too small room for them, I very unprofessionally put in some floor to ceiling corner bass traps and absorbing panels at roughly the first reflection points and some bass traps on the rear wall and the difference was astonishing. It made me an instant convert to room treatment. Since then, I’ve moved and no longer have the traps and panels I had, but the sound has been so stellar with the X5s and Valhalla without treatment, I haven’t felt the need to add any. Maybe the open baffle technology obviates the need for it? Since you now have, at its heart, the same system I have - X5+Valhalla - I wondered what your experience has been. Also, are you using a DAC, and, if so, which one? Okay, enough. Again, congratulations and welcome to the club of remarkably intelligent and cultivated X5 and Valhalla owners. Not quite as intelligent and cultivated as Don Sachs 300b owners, but, hey, number two tries harder. Thanks, brother. Please excuse the inanity. I try to be a serious person, but somehow it always eludes me.
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Yep, OB speakers work WITH the room instead of against it, so it's much easier to get great sound from an OB speaker in pretty much any room, vs. a box speaker.
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True, that, Tyson. I actually removed floor to ceiling GIK bass traps behind my speakers after listening to my X3s a while. Was just messing around but the sound was much more realistic and lively after the removal. Now have P I Audio diffusors behind and that works!
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And I’m glad you’re glad I’m…okay, I won’t start. I’m curious if your room is treated.
Mine is the opposite of treated because I'm still working and the speakers are in a garage which serves as my office. Concrete floor with a few throw rugs plus shelving with files and papers behind the speakers. Plus I just plopped the speakers down without any care or thought and they just sounded great. I might accidentally have "treatment" in the shelving behind them.
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Can you comment on how much warmer the Valhalla runs compared to LTA. I have the Ultralinear running M5s in a very small room. Live in Bay Area with no AC. Summers do get warm in that room. The LTA is bearable on warm nights. I worry traditional tubes would cook the room and perhaps the amp.
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It is warmer but I've got a pretty big area and the amp is about 15 feet away from me so I don't feel it. I moved my LTA Z40+ into a smaller room and now notice that it actually warmed up a bit too but not quite as much. I don't see the Valhalla changing the temperature in any room even if small. Just give it ventilation space. Probably best to talk to Cloud about the specifics.
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Can you comment on how much warmer the Valhalla runs compared to LTA. I have the Ultralinear running M5s in a very small room. Live in Bay Area with no AC. Summers do get warm in that room. The LTA is bearable on warm nights. I worry traditional tubes would cook the room and perhaps the amp.
For what it’s worth, I’ve got mine on top of a cabinet, so it’s not enclosed at all, and it really doesn’t get very hot at all. Other than to touch the tubes, I don’t know as I’d say it gets any more than warm. It certainly doesn’t get warm enough to affect the room. I don’t have any experience with owning tubes outside of the Valhalla, but my experience with it makes me wonder at people’s describing their tube amps as heating the room or having to abandon them in the warmer months. Unless there’s something particular about mine, I think you’d be safe with a Valhalla regardless of the room’s size.
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I don’t have any experience with owning tubes outside of the Valhalla, but my experience with it makes me wonder at people’s describing their tube amps as heating the room or having to abandon them in the warmer months.
When people say their tube amps heat up the room, there's some exaggeration going on. Likewise, some people believe turning off the lights cools a room.
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Not just tubes give off heat so does some solid-state designs depending on how they are biased and how much class watts are in play. All amps unless they run cool to slightly warm should be on a stand with open air above. Ideally, an amp stand between the speakers is the way to go so the speakers are open between them and the back wall behind them with curtains and or acoustic panels.
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And I am glad that you are glad. Must be more of that altruism. :icon_twisted:
As a Sapphire owner I’m following with some ignoble interest. Compared to the passive 90dB M4, is there any thought to how much of the Valhalla’s performance is related to the X5 powered woofer and higher efficiency?
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As a Sapphire owner I’m following with some ignoble interest. Compared to the passive 90dB M4, is there any thought to how much of the Valhalla’s performance is related to the X5 powered woofer and higher efficiency?
I would guess that other members might have the answer to that. The Valhalla is 33 watts and I don't know the impedance or efficiency of your speakers, not to mention your set up. I would guess that if your speakers are 8 ohm in in the 90db range efficient, the 33 watts would be sufficient. I do know that the Valhalla does improve the bass performance in my speakers over the LTA even though there is a hypex amp in the path. I asked Cloud if this was possible and he texted me:
"That is the Valhalla. The X5's are high leveled so they take on the characteristics of whatever amp drives them. Clayton did that because most line level sub setups have their own tone and it often isn't coherent with the rest of the system."
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I have other questions to email Cloud so will ask and post. He’s likely in the best position to answer anyhow. The M4 are 90dB, 4 ohm nominal.
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I have other questions to email Cloud so will ask and post. He’s likely in the best position to answer anyhow. The M4 are 90dB, 4 ohm nominal.
Please let us know what you find out.
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As a Sapphire owner I’m following with some ignoble interest. Compared to the passive 90dB M4, is there any thought to how much of the Valhalla’s performance is related to the X5 powered woofer and higher efficiency?
I have some experience of this, albeit limited to a couple of listening sessions. When I first auditioned the Spatials at their shop, the first ones I listen to were X4s, paired first with an LTA Z10 and Benchmark DAC, then with a Valhalla. The X4s with the LTA were good, really good, but the X4s with the Valhalla were revelatory. They were so impressive in so many ways, I decided then and there I had to have a pair. In the end, I went with the X5s, but only because having the plate amp and being 8ohm with 97db sensitivity allowed, in theory, for a wider range of of low-wattage tube amps, and absolutely not because I needed the extra oomph of the X5s powered woofers. The X4s, at 4ohms and 88db sensitivity, driven by the Valhalla, at 33wpc, lacked nothing in terms of bass, and I listened to some pretty bass-heavy tracks to test it (Flo Rida's The Club Can't Handle Me, Macklemore's Downtown, Tyler, the Creator's Earfquake, etc). It may be that the X4s would profit from a higher-powered solid state amp, but, for what it's worth, I certainly didn't feel the need for it. The Valhalla, driving a supposedly difficult load of 4ohms, was more than equal to the task. Also, just for the record, I tested the Valhalla with my Dynaudio Heritage Specials (which I replaced with my X5s). At 4ohms and 85db sensitivity, the Heritage Specials are reputed to be difficult speakers to drive, and the Valhalla drove them every bit as well as my solid state Classe CT-2300 at 300wpc. Understanding why is beyond my scope - something about quality vs quantity - but the proof was in the listening. I guess the short answer to your question is no, in my experience (the invariable caveat to any responsible audio advice), the Valhalla's performance is not determined by the X5s, or any speaker's, use of powered woofers. Hope that helps.
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I'm kinda surprised that the LTA Z10 was able to drive the X4s and do really really well since that amp gives off only 13wpc.
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I'm kinda surprised that the LTA Z10 was able to drive the X4s and do really really well since that amp gives off only 13wpc.
You know, I may be misremembering as to the specific LTA. I’m not familiar enough with the various LTA amps to know offhand what the progression is in their lineup respective to power. Then again, I may be remembering correctly and its comparative lack of power accounts for it being so outshined by the Valhalla. Sorry. I should’ve been more precise in my recollection. Or it could be, despite its being 4ohms and of relatively low sensitivity compared to the X5, that the X4 is nevertheless fairly easy to drive. As with nearly all things Spatial, I bet Cloud would know.
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I have some experience of this,
This is quite helpful. Thank you.
If I remember correctly from Mar of last year, when I was considering which model to buy, Clayton mentioned the X4 and M4 share bass section.
I had my 10W Schiit stack (Lyr/Gjallarhorn/Bifrost) running the Sapphires for a few weeks recently while my pre amp/DAC was out for repair. I listen at pretty low volume (about 65dB ave, peaks in the upper 70s) and I’m only 2m from the speakers in an 11’ x 14’ space. I’m sure there were details missing but I didn’t feel like the Schiit stack gave up anything in dynamics to the high powered SS main amps. I swapped in a couple of pair of 85dB 8ohm stand mounts that the system ran just fine also, albeit in the Lyr’s high gain setting. That experience finally convinced me that 20 ish watts is more than enough for my purposes.
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Please let us know what you find out.
Cloud had quite a bit to share, which he said is okay to post here. Specific to my question of Valhalla / M4 compatibility, he mentioned this is his current set up and sounds terrific. Taken is context of everything that’s been said, that is plenty good enough for me.
In discussing sound stage and my current dissatisfaction he did caution that the source/dac is equally important. This is something I need to consider before getting too carried away.
Addition comments:
“ Sub Integration with the Valhalla is great. It doesn’t have line level outs, but high level inputs with a good sub is superior anyway.
Efficiency is no problem, I’m a rocker who constantly listens at 85db and higher and the Valhalla has plenty of juice with great dynamics and slam. 30+ watts goes a long way when you have incredible iron.
Tube life is about 10,000 hours on the front three tubes and 3000 to 5000 hours on the power tubes…
I’m obviously biased as I build them. But Dons gear is what got me to appreciate tube gear as it doesn’t have the traditional shortcomings of many other tube gear I’ve tried. Below is a little information on how the Valhalla works and what sets it apart.
The Valhalla is a great integrated. Don has always been A one-man show being an electrical engineer he would modify different tube amps including citation amps and others. But realized he could create his own amps that outperformed these modded tube amps. That’s now what proliferates Don‘s lineup. And since Don was a one-man show he could keep his overhead very low and use very high end Componentry in his lineup. I’m sure you’ve heard the saying the good sounding tube circuits are known and there isn’t new designs in tubes. That’s 100% correct, which means how you implement and the quality of components is key to creating great sounding tube amps.
As for the Valhalla itself. It’s a KT 66 amp that produces anywhere from 30 to 40 W depending on what tubes are run with it. It also can be run with 6l6, El34, or KT77s. It uses some of the best iron on the market with very high quality toroidal transformers from Poland in both the power and output transformers. The power supply is regulated (very rare) as this increases transparency and accuracy. The amp uses constant and fully auto biasing. This constant biasing system is key as it constantly adjusts the bias of the tubes to make sure they’re always running in their optimal bias range. This is important because as tubes warm up and play large transients their biasing shifts. When tubes become slightly out of bias it creates a distorted wave form in the bass. This is what causes that “sloppy” bass that tube amps are known for. With a Constant biasing system that distorted wave never happens. This lens itself to the best bass I’ve heard on a tube amp and can keep up with great solid-state amps.
The Valhalla uses all octal tubes in the driver section and preamp. These tubes are more expensive and require more power to drive them then smaller tubes like 12au and 6DG8s ect…. But offer less distortion and are more musically engaging then the smaller driver tubes. The 6sn7s are LC coupled with vcap ODAMs. Which allows you to hear the lower distortion and transparency of the 6sn7.
The preamp and volume are controlled by a very high quality 64 step khozmo relay shunt attenuator. This style of attenuator allows there to only be two resistors in the signal path at any given volume (a omron and naked foil). This attenuator is arguably the most accurate and transparent volume control you can buy today.”
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Thanks for the report. The Valhalla really is a great amp and it doesn't surprise me to hear that it would drive the Sapphires or X4s well.
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I know you guys have finally confirmed low wattage amps can power the fully passive M and X series Spatials, but I wanted to let you know that I confirmed the same with my own ears. Last year, I auditioned the X4s at LTA and they were using the ZOTL Ultralinear +, which is 20 watts. They performed without strain!
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I know you guys have finally confirmed low wattage amps can power the fully passive M and X series Spatials, but I wanted to let you know that I confirmed the same with my own ears. Last year, I auditioned the X4s at LTA and they were using the ZOTL Ultralinear +, which is 20 watts. They performed without strain!
If you look at this review of the LTA Z40 and the Ultralinear, even though the Z40 has more wpc, the Ultralinear apparently has more oomph as the author compares their effect on the Magnepan 1.7i -- neither was great but the Ultralinear fared a bit better (20 wpc vs about 45 or so for the Z40). This was a review of the pre + version. So it doesn't surprise me that the Ultralinear can push the M and X series Spatials.
https://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0221/Linear_Tube_Audio_Z40_Integrated_Amplifier_Review_ZOTL_Ultralinear.htm
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I had the LTA REF 40 plus amp with the DS pre and was very happy with that combo with my X5's. Then I talked to the guys at Spatial who have a couple different models of the LTA and some DS equipment also. From what I hear from them they love playing the Kootenay or Valhalla. And then Don brought down his new 300b offering to give them a listen and that upped the game even further. They were so convincing in their description I sold my LTA and bought one of only 2 Don Sachs 300b amps, this one I have with custom wound IT trannies from Cinemag and a couple other tweaks from his original design. I'm using 4 tungsol nos 6v6 from the 50's. I have 3 quads of 300b that I swap in and out as I still can't figure out which set I like best. And a pair of Linlai Elite e6sn7's. This is definitely the first piece I've owned that simply puts everything into place, and I've owned a LOT of equipment in my days. This is the first (and last) truly great amp I've had in my system. A friend had the integrated LTA 40 and swapped it for a used DS Kootenay and loved it. Now he longs for a DS 300b but the Kootenay, in his system, and to his ears, simply was a big step up from the LTA.
DS is going to be at the Pacific Audio Fest on June 23 and 24 in Seattle in the Spatial Audio room with his 300b mono blocks and preamp for anyone interested.
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Any idea if they available to purchase? I was planning on going to the show but I have a work event that weekend now.
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Why don't you message Don? He posts here and has a post in this thread.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=252764)
Here's a teaser of the new Sachs 300B monos.
These will be at the audio show in Seattle in June. Can't help but think they will draw huge interest.
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I will be there. Friday late afternoon and evening, Saturday and then Sunday morning. Don has said (on another forum) he will be around Friday and Saturday.
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I will be there. Friday late afternoon and evening, Saturday and then Sunday morning. Don has said (on another forum) he will be around Friday and Saturday.
I’ll be at PAF pretty much the same time as you. I’m very keen to listen to these mono 300B amps.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=252764)
Here's a teaser of the new Sachs 300B monos.
These will be at the audio show in Seattle in June. Can't help but think they will draw huge interest.
I love my Valhalla, and I hate seeing these pictures. I do not need these wheels turning in my head.
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I love my Valhalla, and I hate seeing these pictures. I do not need these wheels turning in my head.
Willpower, grasshopper. Willpower.
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Willpower, grasshopper. Willpower.
Ha! The spirit is willing, but the flesh, well, you know.
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Love my Valhalla as well and looking forward to the hearing the Sachs 300B monos. Leaving my credit card at home.
Michael I'll see you at PAF probably just Sat. and Sun. An audiophile friend will be joining me this year. We will drive up from Tacoma each day.
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Ha! The spirit is willing, but the flesh, well, you know.
Tell me about it. I've only had the stereo version for a few months and I'm already in the queue to get the monos. I'm in serious need of a CAT scan. Every time I think it's over and I'm on my way to recovery something like this comes around. Anyone interested in a killer Don Sachs 300b stereo version?
:D
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Anyone interested in a killer Don Sachs 300b stereo version? :D
Aw geez, Geerock! You should have mentioned this two weeks ago!!! I spoke with Don about his monos, but my budget won't allow for them, so I purchased a used 300b amp and it's crazy good. Everything everyone is saying about 300b tubes are true, but you gotta buy a high-quality amp and they ain't cheap. I still have my DS2 preamp, though. Don's new preamp should be interesting, as well.
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Everything everyone is saying about 300b tubes are true, but you gotta buy a high-quality amp and they ain't cheap. I still have my DS2 preamp, though. Don's new preamp should be interesting, as well.
Yeah, I have his pre amp too but his new collaborations with other top audio folks like Lynn Olson, seems to have Don taking another step up in the equipment he's offering. And at such great competitive pricing no less. I mean....pure class A 300b monos running almost 30 watts in the price range he's talking is just gonna set a new benchmark. I truly believe no matter who is building them there is going to be a backlog. And yes, I'm probably gonna add the new pre to my order too.
Happy listening!
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WOW! Cloud finished my Valhalla and it was delivered about 7:15PM yesterday! It was a frustrating day ALL day as UPS said it would be delivered between12:30 and 3:30 so I was about ready to "bite myself" by the time it arrived!!! All connected and playing in less then 30minutes. and WOW! again. X3s never sounded better at my house. Listening now while tubes and all settle in. So, happy I made this choice, finally, and can say from my viewpoint that anyone deciding need not fret over choosing the Valhalla!