[viggen]

From the looks of that bike and the description of what you are doing with the saddle position and bars, it sounds like you need a pro fitting.  When I first got into cycling, I relied on info from various websites, books, etc., to dial in my fit.  The results were pretty bad (numb hands, numb you-know-what, sore back, sore neck, really bad hamstring, sore knee, hot spots on feet, sore IT band, etc.)...

Yes, I am finding a lot of peculiarities regarding the Toyota frame.  It's 54cm seat tube with 58cm top tube.  The seat tube slants backwards more than the Team's, the Fuji I just sold.

I first set the Toyota up to mimic the Team's fit when I first got the bike.  Then, I made micro adjustments from there on out.  The fit is fine when on flats, but I lose power when going up hills. 

It took me awhile to figure out why I was losing power on hills.  There are lots of variables such as different drive train, geometry so forth.  However, during yesterday's ride, I got up some hills without losing power.  The key was I got my knee really close to the handlebar while in aero position. 

I just ordered a Profile Design FFC seat post.  This post has a forward angle.  I hope it will even out the Toyota's seat tube's backward angle.  I also ordered a new 100mm 84d stem.  My current one is 110mm 73d (I think).  The shorter stem is to compensate for the longer top tube. 

And, I think 84d is proving to be too low for me for 50+ mile rides.  I had some breathing difficulty but not sure whether its because I wasn't getting proper lung expansion or whether it's because of dehydration setting in.  In any case, I think a taller stem will do me good.

If all else fails, maybe I need to visit one of those old guys in the shops that claim to be fit gurus.  We actually have tons of shops here in Irvine with fit gurus.  It's a very bike friendly city with LOTS of Cervelos and Specialized specific stores that offer many bike fit levels.  I think I know where I want to go if it comes to that.  But, I prefer to do it myself at this point. 

I don't really feel any discomfort now.  I just experience power loss on hills.  For instance, I could bike up 7% grades on my Team while on 50t 23t combo.  But, I struggle on 39t 27t combo while on the Toyota.  Well, I hope the new components will hash this out.

[viggen]

Make sure you keep your electrolytes up.  If your electolytes get out of wack yuu will feel sick and very little energy.  The quickest fix is some salt.  A cheap and solution is use Suceed! Electrolyte caps every hour so. 

http://www.succeedscaps.com/

I am getting hydration advice from someone called Badwater.. heh.

Thanks for the heads up.  I've actually never experienced dehydration or low electrolyte before.  I didn't think that would be a problem for me.  I had 3 water bottles that was 1/3 Gatorade.  And, I ate 1.5 bags of Gu Chomps.  I take these mainly to prevent cramps as my calves cramp easily.  I guess as I need to take better electrolyte loss precaution as well.

[Badwater]

Well I speak from hard won experience.  I have been  doing ultramarathons for the past 15 years and have done several races in 50-100 mile plus range.  If you don't  pay attention to your nutrition, hydration and electrolytes you don't finish.  Electrolyte imbalance is easily corrected using supplementation; you start to feel sick you take a cap.  It is really that simple.  The other axiom is to drink when you are thirsty.  Over hydration can be as much a problem as dehydration. 

BTW, I take my name from the Badwater Ultramarathon run in  Death Valley every July.  I have done the race two times.  Google the race and explore the site for some great tips on running or riding in the heat.

Good luck.
Bill

[viggen]

Thanks again for your heads up!  I think I am more guilty of drinking too little than drinking too much at least most of the time.  Usually, on a 30 mile ride, I end up with more than a half full 25oz water bottle.  I basically bloat easily, so I do only drink when my mouth feels thirsty.  And, I just squirt enough to wash my mouth out.  It's really in the past few weeks or so that I really started drinking a lot more than usual.

I just looked up a term I never heard of before, hyponatremia which is a state of low electrolyte caused by low sodium concentration which is caused by, among other things, drinking too much water.

I really didn't think I had electrolyte loss problems because I was downing Gatorade and Gu Chomps along with the water.  After reading the Succeed! S Cap site, it explains that "all" other products do not deliver the amount of electrolytes it claims to (unlike S Caps). 

Just found this on Badwater's site:

1)    Low on fluids and possibly electrolytes.

Symptoms: Plunging weight, lightheaded, shortness of breath, stop and go slower and wobbly pace, urine is yellow and sparse. Hint: Severe dehydration; the worst case scenario.

That certainly sounds like what I experienced. 

2)    Low on electrolytes but fluids are okay.

Symptoms: Horrible cramping begins. Wham! They strike incredibly fast and are generally severe. You wind up on the ground curled up like a pretzel. Weight, urine output and color had been okay?  Hint: You need electrolytes.

I didn't cramp at all.  So, perhaps I didn't have an electrolyte loss problem?

[viggen]

Another update today.  As explained in previous post, I ordered a new seat post and stem from Amazon.  However, I am weary whether I absolutely need these components.  So, instead of resting my body like a good boy, I hopped on my bike for a short 15 mile ride up a local hill that ranged between 2-4% and up to 6% grades. 

Before the ride, I pushed my seat all the way to the front end of the rail.  And, about 5 miles into the ride, I raised the seat post up about an inch.  This felt much better on the flats and a bit of improvement over the hills.

On my ride back, I decided to do some one legged pedaling.  I haven't been doing them in a long time.  My left is my weak leg, but I thought it got stronger with all the running, biking and P90X leg exercises I've been doing recently.  However, there was still a distinct difference between my left and right legs that was apparent when pedaling single legged.

My right leg can both push and pull the pedals smoothly with full range of motion.  My left leg can push OK but can't pull very high with out extra effort.  I "knock" when going over the top.  And, I was experiencing more power loss when my left leg is, for lack of a better description, kicking forwards. 

I think this is probably the source of my power loss problem and why I needed to pull my seat closer to the handle bar.  If my seat is closer to the handle bar, I don't need to kick forwards as much with my legs.  And, because the Toyota's top tube is a bit longer, this exposed my left leg's weakness.

I really need to strengthen my left leg.  Anyways, just for those interested, here's a pic of my current seating position. 

New

Old

[jackman]

Hey Viggen,

Great thread!  I can attest to the imporance of good hydration on a bike.  I used to only have one water bottle holder and would always ride without drinking enough water.  It's not a big deal in the winter but during the summer it's a killer.  Especially when you are going more than 40 miles or riding in hot temps or in mountains (as you do).  My former company used to make materials for Gatorade so I had one of the chemists whip me up a salt blend to use on long rides.  I mix a small scoop into my drink mix and it works well.  There are lots of good brands on the market and I am not sure which is best but I'm guessing they all use similar salts (it's not a big secret).  As long as you are getting enough water in a good isotonic mix, you will feel much better.

My problem is different, I think about hydration so much that I wind up drinking TOO much water and having to pee during the ride.  It's tough when you have to go in a populated area and there are tons of people around...still haven't perfected the art of going while riding like the pro's do. 

Regarding the fit, it's hard to tell how your bike fits you without a picture of you on the bike.  It's usually pretty hard even with a picture of you on the bike.  A short video works best.  That seat looks strange and, based on what little I can tell from the pictures, it appears your bike does not fit you properly.  If the top tube is too long or the geometry is not right for you, sell it, even if it means you have to down grade.  I'd take a lower level bike with a perfect fit any day over a really cool race bike that wasn't right for me.  Maybe it's the angle but that seat looks like the nose is too far down and it's slammed forward on the rails. Also, that bar drop looks pretty aggressive.  Are you sure you are comfortable?  Is the forward saddle position forcing your arms into the bars and causing any discomfort? 

My bar drop is not very impressive but I ride all day in the drops with bent elbows and have no pain.  If your fit is oksy, just disregard my comments.  I'm very far from being an expert but I've made just about every mistake you can make in my short time as a cyclist!

Cheers,

Jack

[viggen]

Needing to pee while biking SUCKS!  I hate to have to make a pit stop for any reason actually.  And, it's pretty consistent that I have to make a pit stop after 40 miles.  I just started wearing a bib last week, and it requires a bit of contortion to get "it" all out in the open.  I am lucky that a lot of my biking is in the boonies, so I can go behind a bush... And, there's lots of public parks in the hood with loos.

I think my bike is designed for someone with longer quads than mine.  The person who sold me my bike claimed this bike belonged to Chris Wherry (formerly of Toyota United).  He's about 2" taller than I am. 

I thought the most important measurement on a bike is the top tube.  Well, I still think so.  So, the new bike is only 1cm longer in the top tube compared to the old.  So, I thought fit shouldn't be a problem.  However, the seat tube is at a steeper angle.  So, the taller I place the seat post, the farther back it gets relative to my old bike's geometry.  And, gradually, I am pulling the seat up higher and higher. 

I ordered the Profile Design FFC which is described to allow seats to be pushed forwards by 38mm.  What's that like 1.5"?  I think that should be good enough to make the frame work for me. 

As for the stem angle, it is a lot lower than what my previous bike was at.  I don't think I have problems with it actually.  I would like to get my elbow and knees closer together when I am in aero position though.  So, I got a slightly shorter and taller stem to experiment with. 

I think I'd have my wife shoot a video of me on rollers later tonight or something.  One thing tho, I haven't been brave enough to get in aero position wile on the roller...

[viggen]

Here's a vid.

http://vimeo.com/25577473

Using the knee above the pedal rule of thumb, I think my knee cap is just a smudge behind the pedal.  I think I am slightly ankling too.  So, the seat can be a smudge lower and forward.  That's what I see anyways.

You can see the JMR Evolution MK3 in the video.  It's available for sale.  Any takers?

I hate posting a personal video on a public forum but, for the love of bikes, here goes.

[jackman]

First of all, thanks for posting a video. You are pretty good on those rollers, much better than I am!  Secondly, take my comments with a grain of salt because I'm not a good bike fitter. My attempts to achieve a good fit on my bike resulted in pain and injury. However, it appears that your frame is too big. Your knee position over the pedals looks good from what I can tell (KOPS is a good reference) but it appears you are ankling and rocking your hips. I think you need to lower that seat post a bit and move the saddle back slightly.  I could very well be wrong but a good bike fitter will be able to tell right away. I hate telling people to spend money but a good fitter is worth it.

If I'm wrong, I apologize but I messed around with adjusting my fit for a long tine and didn't get it fixed until I found an experienced fitter. Best of luck.

J

[LadyDog]

I'll echo Jack here a bit.  Go get a fitting.  Spend the $100-$150 to have someone professionally set you up on the bike.  Much better money spent that $75 here on a post.  $65 on a new stem.  Etc.  Especially if it may or may not work.

You may need all of the above, but then it will be money well spent.

Didn't spend too much time looking at the video, as all that utube video seems to make my laptop crash.  Other than staying at a Holiday Inn last night; saddle height looks a smidge high.  Need to bend your elbows a bit too.  Not sure if they are mildly stiff because, or because the top tube is a smidge too long.  Again hard to analyze all that stuff based on watching 30 seconds of you riding.

I'd also not focus too much on the knee over(kops) stuff.  General starting point, but works for some, doesn't for others.

Btw, very nice job on the rollers.  Great way to smooth out your pedal stroke and cadence.

Dura Ace cranks?  Should be able to get +/- $150 for them, depending on condition.  You could sell them and buy a compact crank.  Instead of just shelling out money.  Though somewhat hard to find that balancing act of selling/buying, but still spending time on the road.

As you mentioned, can be a crazy expensive hobby.  Just dropped $150 on a new set of tires.  The benefit though, much better exercise than sitting and listening to your tube amp. 

Keep us posted on your progress.

[jackman]

Good advice Jeff.  I was meaning to say the same thing about KOPS.  It's a good place to start but certainly not religion.  Lots of people ride comfortably without adhering to the old rule. 

Also, I'd hold off on buying anything until you get a bike fitting.  Your current stem and post might be fine.  Then again, the whole bike may be too big and you might be better off selling and buying a new one completely.  Bike fit, and having the proper size bike is #1 in my book.  You  will spend tons of time and money and risk discomfort and injury by riding the wrong bike or a bike with a bad fit.  I know this first hand.  My knee is finally better!

Cheers,

J

[viggen]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Really appreciate it.

I think we are all in agreement that the top tube is a bit long and the stem can be a bit higher and perhaps shorter.  After I get my components installed, I will post new video.

I agree on the KOPS too.  I pay more attention to how I feel when pedaling than KOPS.  Just that it's the first time I've video myself so used KOPS as guideline to comment my form.

Really need to work on my left leg.  As previously mentioned, I had 2 surgery on it so far.  So, it atrophy easily and has scar tissue that generally limits range of motion when I am not paying attention to my form.  Developed my own training program last night to try to get my left leg to where my right is at strength and range of motion wise. 

I think I want to get all these accomplished before seeing a pro about a fit.  At least, I want to get into a static situation first before consultation.  Otherwise, we might not be addressing the right issues.

If and when I do go for a fit, I am thinking of this place:

http://aroadbike4u.com/articles/bike-fitting-pg75.htm 

[viggen]

I really curious about the tubeless route for road bikes.  What is the rationale?  I know what it is meant to do for mountain bikes and I guess some of that makes sense for road bikes too, like not flatting as much and lower rolling resistance. 

I am in the process of converting my MTBs to tubeless.

Sorry missed your question earlier.  My answer will pertain to road bike relevancy.  And, my experience is switching from Continental Ultra Sport (a lower middle of the way tire) with Continental butyl tubes to Hutchinson Atom tubeless tires.

1. Roll resistance.  Not so much on flats when going over 15mph but when going up grades or going below 10 mph, I can really feel the lowered roll resistance. 

2A. Comfort. Well, most people say tubeless is very smooth compared to clinchers.  This might be true.  In my case, the tubeless is very smooth on smooth pavement.  My clinchers are smoother on less perfect surfaces though.  The extra butyl layer is probably the difference.  And, Conti tires are probably on the softer side already.

2B. Lower PSI.  You can ride lower PSI on tubeless tires because you don't have to worry about pinch flats.  This results in a softer ride.  I always pump up to 100 psi though.  So, that's probably why I haven't experienced the "smooth" tubeless ride.

3. Puncture resistant. With some sealant, the tubeless is puncture resistant.  I don't think road tubes with sealant are nearly as puncture resistant as mtn bike tubes though.  Road tube has higher PSI and most road wheels are not suitable to be used with Stan's or other types of sealants.  I think only Caffelatex won't void wheel factory warranty because it doesn't contain ammonia. 

[AB]

I think I want to get all these accomplished before seeing a pro about a fit.  At least, I want to get into a static situation first before consultation.  Otherwise, we might not be addressing the right issues.

If and when I do go for a fit, I am thinking of this place:

http://aroadbike4u.com/articles/bike-fitting-pg75.htm 

I agree that you need to have a professional bike fit.
With the best fitters, a bike fit is not a one time thing but a series of consultations that will take into consideration your progress as you develop as a rider. We all know the "time to flip the stem" point in the riding season and it's the same with a fitting - you will want to make adjustments as you get fitter and more comfortable riding.

So don't put it off. You really can do some damage to yourself riding a poorly fitting bike.

Over the years I have had several fittings done here.

http://www.bch.org/sportsmedicine/bike-fit.aspx.

[viggen]

Another update: 

Felt really good today.  Previously, I was complaining that I wasn't generating the power I used to have when going up steeper hills on my new bike.  I thought of many variables such as drive train, bike geometry but I think I nailed the real culprit. 

I have a lazy left buttocks syndrome.  Yesterday, I found out my left leg's pedaling isn't close to ideal.  Worked on it last night with some weights and jumping exercises.  Today, I noticed my left buttock wasn't doing any work.  So, I forced it to do more work.  It started to feel better with each additional mile. 

I think this all started when I got some cold like symptom a few weeks ago, so I was off the bike for awhile.  So, my left leg decided to take a permanent vacation.  It does that because I've been favoring my right leg for close to two decades since I first tore my left ACL when I was 19.  I didn't think 2 weeks off the bike would have cause my left leg to lose its form so quickly but it did.

In previous posts, I was complaining how I couldn't pedal while in the big ring when going up hills.  Today, I was able to use the big ring while using the 4th large cog in the back while upping the steeper portion of today's ride. 

I'd say I am 80% with 20% effort and will probably have to work 80% to get the remainder 20% strength back into my left leg. 

Anyways, 16.9 avg mph thru the canyon which is my fastest speed so far.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/94836789

[viggen]

I agree that you need to have a professional bike fit.
With the best fitters, a bike fit is not a one time thing but a series of consultations that will take into consideration your progress as you develop as a rider. We all know the "time to flip the stem" point in the riding season and it's the same with a fitting - you will want to make adjustments as you get fitter and more comfortable riding.

So don't put it off. You really can do some damage to yourself riding a poorly fitting bike.

Over the years I have had several fittings done here.

http://www.bch.org/sportsmedicine/bike-fit.aspx.

Honestly, I have some resistance towards getting a fit right off the bat.  I guess I don't want to go get a fit to fix my current issues.  I want to go when I am ready to move on to a next level of performance which I am not at right now.  Maybe my expectations are incorrect, and I should go get a fit to help build a strong foundation first. 

With my previous bike, I think my fit was right on.  Took me about 2 months to get there by making micro adjustments after each ride.  My current bike is just a bit of an odd duck.  Let me take a stab at it first.  I like that satisfactory feeling of solving things on my own.  There's some added learning experience to that.  Of course, I could be that guy who doesn't like to ask strangers for directions too.

My expectations are misplaced?

I do have to say that the place you go to seems much more elaborate than the place I am thinking of going to for a fit...

[jackman]

My neighbor is a pretty fast rider and an engineer by trade.  He builds wheels for my group (several, and he's a great wheel builder), has built several bikes (assembled, not actual framebuliding) and tunes up my bike all the time.  He's ridden bikes for several years and, until recently, has always done his own fittings. 

He's read every book he could get his hands on over  the years books and was confident his fit was perfect.  He is 6 foot 4 inches tall and was using a KHS CF bike before upgrading to a S-Works Roubaix.  When he got the Roubaix, he decided to treat himself to a Retul fitting.  It was over $300 but he had a gift certificate at a local shop and applied it towards his  fit.  He was shocked at how much his "dialed in" fit differed from the Retul fit.  After a couple rides and a couple minor revisions at the shop, he is the biggest advocate for a pro fit.  I'm not saying you need to spend hundreds of dollars but I know several serious riders and racers who swear by pro fittings.  Here is a comment from a local guy:

Retul bike fit system  Quote | Reply 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
wow -just saw the new Retul bike fit system. CTS started using it and are getting rave reviews from their customers. check it!

"As to professional bike fit, I just today got back from Asheville where I was fitted by CTS using the Retul system. I have at least 10 books on bike fitting and have been around the subject since 1971. At home I have used a goniometer, plumb bob and home-made video angle measurements on my computer. Although my fit was pretty close (for example I have the right overall size bike, right crank length and stem), the Retul system and CTS made changes to my fore-aft saddle position and height that really improved my comfort on the bike. I think it is a great thing to do. Seeing projected on the wall a large stick figure with your riding biomechanics in real time is very interesting. There really isn't any way to see what your angles and positions are while actually riding other than a system like this. I highly recommend going to CTS if you can. Best, Mark "

I'd rather have a pro fit than several bikes that don't fit properly.  It's a question of priorities and I bet a pro fit (the right one) will make you faster than swapping your groupset to DuraAce and your wheels to  Zipp 404's.  Your bike won't be as sexy but you will be faster and less prone to fit related injuries.  I wouldn't spend any money on new stems or seatpost until I had a shop make sure you to make sure you have the right size bike.  Once you have confirmed the frame is correct size, you can decide if you want a fitting and which one to get.  Keep us posted! 

Also, your speed is great.  Congrats on the improvements in your fitness level.  I'm envious, and not joking!

Cheers,

J

[viggen]

Hey I no doubt think that I can benefit from a pro fit.  I just want to be in the similar situation as your engineer neighbor and that guy in the testimonial before I get a professional opinion.  You know first get into a fast riding physical condition while having the bike dialed in the best I can myself first.  This way, when I get fitted, I can really appreciate the improvement in my performance assuming I do get faster after the fit.  I don't want to go from point A to C while skipping B.

This biking just like any other hobby to me.  It is more about the learning experience.  I don't race or anything, so I am not in a rush to dial in my bike this instant.  I don't want to miss any of the hands on experience.  I don't mind experiencing some pain in the process of dialing my bike in.  However, I honestly am not experiencing any pain at all. 

My bike might be a tad big on me, but my opinion is that the new seat post will cure that.  I think that I just need to push my seat foward another 1/2".  I was pretty comfortable on my bike yesterday.  I dropped the seat by about 1/3" to alleviate ankling.  And, I was in aero position 95% of the time with no soreness.  I think even now I am really close to where I was at with my old bike in terms of comfort. 

[viggen]

It's the gear.  Gotta get more of it.  Here's my current wish list:

1) 1985-1990 Bottecchia Team SLX frame with C-Record.  Found it on ebay this morning.  The seller isn't very descriptive and only has a crappy pic of the bike.  But, this is my favorite vintage bike frame and my favorite color scheme.  The frame is 56cm.  I think 57cm fits me perfectly.  If I don't already have a vintage bike I am currently restoring, I'd be all over it.




2) Look Keo Carbon Blade.  I am currently using Look Keo Easy.  It's a light minimalist "beginner" pedal.  I really like the looks of the Blade.  It's only about 50 grams lighter than the Easy.  Supposedly, the spindle is smoother and it has a wider platform for better power transfer.  And, it will definitely be easier to click into as the Easy is always hanging upside down when not in use.  It was a bitch to get into the pedals when at stop lights.  It takes me about 3 seconds to get into them now.  Still, wouldn't mind the ease of entry.



3. Shimano Dura-Ace 7950 compact crank.  I might need to move from 53/39 to 50/34 for getting to the top of Mt. Baldy?  I think I will drive to Mt. Baldy to see whether I can ride up the mountain with my current gearing before attempting to bike there from where I live.  There's some really steep hills near me I haven't tried yet either... Oh I got things to do now!

[viggen]

A couple of updates:

Had a successful ride up the steepest slope, Canon Street, in my area.  I wanted to tackle this slope because I think this it will give me a better idea whether I need to get a compact crank or some other mountain climbing gearing in order to get up Mt. Baldy. 

The total ride is 26 miles with about 15 miles of slopes.  On the climbs (and descends), I was seeing somewhere between 6-10% grades on the Garmin with touches of 15%.  However, during parts of the climb I thought was the steepest, Garmin actually didn't give me a grade %.  It just showed "--" in the elevation grade window.  I don't know whether it's because da Garmin doesn't go above 15% or whether I was riding too slow.  I was averaging 3-4 mph over the 10+% grades. 

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/95363008

I was going up da slopes slowly, but I made it up without tiring myself out too much.  I THINK I might be OK with my current drive train for Mt. Baldy.  I just need to improve my power and endurance to climb the same grade over a longer distance as well as the 50 miles it takes to get to Mt. Baldy from home and another 50 miles back.  I will return to this slope and do some intervals on the weekend.  There's too many cars during the week day.

I did break my fastest mph record while descending this Canon St..  Garmin clocked me at 43.5mph.  Could have gone a bit faster.  I applied brakes at first when I hit 40 cuz I am a sissy.  Eventually, I let the brakes go and got up to 43.5 before I had to slow down again because of traffic ahead.  My ear drums were popping.

Part of the reason why I was able to make it up Canon St. is because of my improved left leg's form. For the past few days, I've been working on my left leg and paying extra attention to its form when biking.  What I saw in my previous video is my left foot flopping around and left quad not driving or pulling much.  I think I improved these facets quite a bit but got a long way to go.  My right leg still feels much stronger than my left. 

Here's a new vid of me on rollers:

http://vimeo.com/25796979

More reason to believe this frame is too big for me.