[jtwrace]

In this video, we learn about the formation of Dutch & Dutch and how Martijn got his start in speaker design.  Martijn also speaks about how the 8c design came about along with the features of such design.  There's certainly a lot to unpack in this video!  [

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qiB0D8Tyvk
 

[JLM]

Very interesting that the company and product are still in development.

[zybar]

Seriously considering a pair of 8c’s…does anybody have an experience they want to share?

It could be from an owner, or hearing them at a show.

George

[stvnharr]

I have heard the 8c's twice at the Melbourne Audio Show the past 2 years.
They are everything they are advertised to be. The entry price is steep, but you get a whole lot.
Nonetheless, you have to like the low/no distortion Class D sound.

[JLM]

The Buchardt actives seem to be similar but at a much lower price.

[zybar]

The Buchardt actives seem to be similar but at a much lower price.

Sorta…

They are both active bookshelf speakers that use dsp to achieve a full range speaker.

But how they get there is definitely different.

The Buchardt Anniversary 10’s are about 1/3 the price of the Dutch and Dutch 8C’s.

They are both very interesting…

George

[newzooreview]

Yeah, The 8c lets you connect directly via ethernet to each speaker, so you can send 192/24 files via Roon without downsampling, and you don't have to worry about any type of wireless signal (WiSA or WiFi). With the 8c you can also load a full REW correction into the DSP, and Dutch & Dutch now have a plugin architecture designed into the DSP so you can add the Bacch imaging processing (or other plugins in the future).

With the Buchardt active speakers, you have to buy the Primare MkII hub to stream via Roon without relying on WiFi. But you are still restricted to WiSA wireless between the speakers, which is only 96/24 maximum. There is no capacity to load a REW room correction into the Buchardt DSP. You can use their Zoom mic to correct the bass region, and you can eyeball parametric EQ adjustments in their app. The Buchardt does have free DSP tunings, however, which adjust the crossover and bass response and other things to produce an ideal in-room predicted response (but with no capacity to input the room dimensions), a warm presentation, and emulation of nearfield listening, an emulation of their active speakers, and so on. Reviewers seem to find them useful and not just a gimmick. The tunings ("Mastertunings") are installed one at a time in the internal DSP via a USB stick in the back of the speaker, while the PEQ and microphone-calibrated room correction is only available using the DSP in the hub. So, with a typical Buchardt active setup, there are two DSPs involved: hub and in-speaker.

Both speakers adjust volume in the digital domain, but the Buchardt relies on the external hub to do that while the 8c does it via its internal DSP. The advantage for the Buchardt is that the hubs have remote controls, so you can actually control volume with a dedicated remote. With the 8c you currently have to adjust the volume via an app: there is no remote control available.

The 8c is a cardioid speaker, so you can place it close to the wall behind it with no degradation in sound. A couple of the Buchardt active speakers can be set in cardioid mode (A700 and A500) while the Anniversary 10 cannot be set as cardioid (it has no rear-firing driver).

Erin's Audio Corner has done comprehensive measurements on the 8c, and was very impressed: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/

He's also measured Buchardt A700 and A500, but not the Anniversary 10, and found them to perform very well: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/buchardt_a700/

Alpha Sound included the A500 in a live test of wireless speakers in a very well-treated room with excellent mics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd7Ohv5i9-E

They did the same with the 8c in comparison to other speakers often used as studio monitors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NELvyX822IU

I think that Buchardt and KEF and others are failing to communicate to people who care about sound quality. They emphasize Spotify, Chromecast, Airplay, and other low-grade WiFi streaming options, and this immediately creates the impression that they are making mass-market Best Buy equipment. At the same time, there are reviewers like Gutenberg who are openly hostile to active speakers: he didn't even use the Anniversary 10 as it was designed in preparing his review. He ran his whole component system into the XLR inputs in the back of the speakers, where it all went through an analog to digital conversion before going into the DSP.

Dutch & Dutch seems to focus on sound quality. Getting a digital signal into the 8c without a hub and its additional DSP seems to be a big advantage, and judging only on the Alpha Sound tests, the 8c has a more refined sound top to bottom. It's hard to say how close the Buchardt Anniversary 10 or KEF LS60 would be to the 8c.

[newzooreview]

I just noticed that KEF has put the LS60 on sale for $2,000 off, making them $5,000 for the pair compared to $7,000. I'm not ready to re-establish a loudspeaker system, but that is actually a serious holiday sale price. It puts them in the range of Buchardts (with Pimare hub).

[zybar]

Newzoo,

Thank you for a well written post.

I am leaning towards getting the 8C’s.

In all honesty, it’s what I have been waiting for since I had Tact preamp/processor way, way back.

Great sound from a “simplified” solution is very enticing.

George

[newzooreview]

I would lean towards the 8c as well. The KEF really doesn't support room correction for the bass, and one reviewer noted struggling with a bass node in his room, which is just physics: https://audionostalgia.co.uk/kef-ls60-wireless-review/

If you have DSP in your speaker, you should either have a well-designed bass correction system (like Buchardt with the Zoom mic that only touches the <~500 Hz region) or, like Dutch & Dutch, support full REW correction. KEF has a cartoonish "EQ" feature in their LS60 app where you choose from some vague presets, but it seems very odd to dumb it down to the point of uselessness. They are $7,000 speakers.

With the 8c, running ethernet to each speaker eliminates all issues with wireless connectivity, and you are running a power cord to each speaker anyway so it adds nothing to the complexity of the set up. The KEFs seem to allow the all-ethernet option as well, while the Buchardts only allow it halfway, to the Primare MkII hub, but require WiSA wireless for the speakers.

But yeah, I'm with you. The 8c seem to be the more robust and refined approach, and Dutch & Dutch have not been coming out with new models every couple of years. They are confident in the 8c and have put a lot of impressive effort into the DSP software improvements.

Eventually I will get back to a loudspeaker system, and the 8c will be the likely choice unless something clearly better has come along in the interim.

I've sold about half of my loudspeaker system already, and it is sobering how much complexity and fiddling goes into matching equipment. It makes significantly more sense to engineer the DAC and amp to match the driver and to eliminate interconnects entirely. Add in the capacity to overcome bass issues and bit of frequency response oddness with DSP (once room treatments are made to handle most of it), and a fully digital input/active speaker makes the most sense to me in the future.

[zybar]

Well, I have taken the plunge and the 8C's will be arriving next week!

My 8c's have the black baffle with the natural body and will ultimately be on upgraded Sound Anchor stands (when they are available). 

I also purchased the BAACH plugin. https://dutchdutch.com/products/bacch-plugin?pr_prod_strat=use_description&pr_rec_id=ceef46b22&pr_rec_pid=8667977515345&pr_ref_pid=8624328016209&pr_seq=uniform

The 8C's will be going into a room that is (w)13'x(l)19'x(h)30' with lots of windows. 

I will start a new thread once the arrive.

George

On the Pallet:




From behind the listening chair:



Lots of windows:

[poseidonsvoice]

Looking forward to your impressions zybar!

Best,
Anand.

[JLM]

Why 3 boxes?

[zybar]

Why 3 boxes?

A box for each speaker and a box for the stands.

George

[newzooreview]

Is BAACH effective for one sweet spot only, or is it listenable (if not optimal) from other seats in the room?

[TomS]

Is BAACH effective for one sweet spot only, or is it listenable (if not optimal) from other seats in the room?

The version of BACCH in the D&D is slimmed down as it does not use the tracking camera, which follows the lister's head in real time and adjusts accordingly. Theoretica Applied Physics (the inventors) have a variety of technologies available, but this particular one is intended for a single listener. The full version Bacch-SP and Bach4Mac literally use mic's in the single listener's ears to record the response, so yes, it's a sweet spot where the primary listener can move left and right to some extent due to the camera, but that's it. Amazing stuff, especially once you hear it in person.

https://www.theoretica.us/

[newzooreview]

Thanks. Yes, I saw a demo on YouTube recorded at an audio show, and the listener had to put something in his ears.

How do you set up the version used in the 8c? Do you put a microphone in the listening position to calibrate it and then just sit in that spot?

Even via headphones, I could hear a difference via the questionable quality of the YouTube recording. It did seem to be acceptable even outside of the sweet spot. It did not seem to render things unlistenable from non-optimal positions.

[zybar]

Looking forward to your impressions zybar!

Best,
Anand.

[planet10]

More on D&D

https://audioxpress.com/article/getting-to-know-dutch-dutch

dave

[zybar]

More on D&D

https://audioxpress.com/article/getting-to-know-dutch-dutch

dave

My setup experience over the weekend with my dealer Mike (Unique Home Audio - https://uniquehomeaudiollc.com/) and with Bill (Dutch and Dutch) was even better than the article suggests!

These speakers deserve all of the super positive reviews and press...out of the box they are damn good!

BTW, these "little" speakers go down into the teens with very dynamic and detailed bass!!!   

I'll get a new thread going later today or tomorrow.

Here are a few teaser pics...

George