HT Preamp

OBF · « **on:** 9 Mar 2003, 04:16 am »

Curt,

Sorry if this question has already been asked, but I didn't see it. I've been thinking about how I want to eventually transform my 2 ch stereo into a 5.1 channel system, and what would be the most cost effective way to do this. So I'm wondering if you have thought about building a remote controlled 5.1 ch preamp? Or even better yet, a high quality 5.1 channel preamp with a built in crossover, like a HT version of the IRD Audiophile preamp? I've heard the McCormack is pretty good, but maybe you could build one as good or better for a cheaper price, and without a person having to rely on the poor bass management capabilities of SACD/DVD players.

Thanks,
OBF

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Apr 2003, 08:10 pm »

No reply to this yet? I asked the same thing to AVA, and they are considering it but nothing firm. I think as the availability of quality MC software on SACD/DVD-A increases so will the need for a good, high end MC preamp. The market is already there, so I hope more of the better mfgrs will consider this.

Curt · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Apr 2003, 10:36 am »

Hi OBF,

Sorry I must have missed this post before.

Many people use their 2CH system and their HT receiver system together. The 2CH system becomes the front L&R channels in the HT. The HT receivers amplifiers provide the center and Rear L&R surround channels. This way you can get the best of both worlds.

The HT receivers front L&R preamp outputs are feed to the 2CH systems preamp and given a gain of x1 (OdB) either by using a HT pass-through input or standard input and setting the 2CH preamps gain to 0dB. Not the HT receiver controls the HT volume.

We are looking at a 5.1 or 7.1 preamp design but have not decided if it is the correct concept at this time. If all multi-channel players had a built-in decoder with analog outputs then a HT receiver would not be required and the 5.1 preamp would be the best solution. For now integrating the 2CH system with the HT receiver maybe the best solution. Time will tell.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Apr 2003, 07:19 pm »

That's sort of the limbo that MC music is in right now. Many audiophiles don't understand the concept yet or don't take it seriously. There isn't a lot of good software yet, and so manufacturers are understandably reluctant to commit to new hardware.

I realize that I don't have anything on the line here, so this is just my opinion, but I think we need to have more true high end multichannel preamps before MC music will really take off. Consider this: we have a format that sounds inherently much better than CD ever could, yet this we run thru an HT reciever while CD gets the high end treatment!

If SACD and DVD-A sound good thru a reciever, imagine how good it would sound thru a dedicated MC music preamp.

MaxCast · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Apr 2003, 07:50 pm »

Not only is there not enough software, I'm not sure the software engineers know how to record multichannel without it sounding gimicky after three listens.

I have to say I'm a little miffed by Sony not having more SACD players available right now. Maybe they are pulling the plug. I would think they would have 4 players covering the price range say: $200, $400, $750, $1300???? They are said to be coming out with some but it seems like a long time not to have players on the market for customers to choose from.

randog · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Apr 2003, 08:28 pm »

Curt, I am getting more and more intrigued by your stuff everyday.

There was a thread in the AKSA forum that is similar to this one. Please check out my thoughts here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=1944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

I think you would be *way* ahead of the game if you could offer a 5.1 preamp without the surround processing. In addition, I think it would be an awesome compliment to your new preamp offerings which look like real winners.

As soon as someone comes out with an affordable 5.1 preamp without all the surround processing baggage and that really sings in 2 channel... I'm there! Doit! Doittoday!

Randog

OBF · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Apr 2003, 11:30 pm »

Randog,

Audio Refinement has a remote 5.1 preamp that can be found used for $500, but I don't know if it's good enough to do SACD justice. McCormack has one that I suspect (and have heard) is VERY good, but I doubt it meets your "affordable" criteria unless you have deep pockets.

Curt,

I would just do as you suggest and integrate my 2 channel and HT systems into one....except I don't have a HT receiver or pre/pro and don't want to waste money on one since I plan on getting a modded universal player and in theory, its analog outputs should be much better than a receivers. Plus, for SACD you HAVE to use the analog outputs and that's why I think good 5.1 preamps will be great products for the future. For a company like IRD that has expertise in cost effective preamps and crossovers, I was just thinking you might be able to get a "leg up" and create an innovative preamp with quality analog bass management built in, or as an option, as I suspect digital bass management will be showing up in the hi-rez players fairly soon. I think receivers will be for the mass market and quality players (or multichannel trans/DAC combos) feeding multichannel preamps and amps will take over the high end.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 12:13 am »

This is an area where I guess everyones idea of "ideal" is different, but I'd vote for no decoders, crossovers, or other unnecessary electronics. Denon has already announced a universal player with onboard digital bass management, and my guess is that others will inevitably follow suit. Another reason I'd avoid doing much in the bass mng'ment dept is cost: it would add cost to the unit, and maybe spurious noise as well.

Luckily a good many DVD players also decode DD & DTS, too.

But the main raison d'ete of a peice like this would be music, not HT. If a person now has seperate MC theatre & 2 CH music rigs, why not still separate systems but both MC?

There are some phenomenal sounding Hi Rez MC channel recordings out there already.

OBF · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 12:37 am »

Rob,

I was just thinking integrated crossovers would be a nice option, but I would agree it wouldn't be a good idea to not give buyers a choice. For some people, it might save buying a product like the Outlaw ICBM and 5 more cables. Digital bass management, if done right, would solve that problem even better. The quality preamp is what I'm really after and the crossover was just a random idea.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out how I can afford to turn my 2 ch system (my HT is the same 2 ch, but I do have a BIG screen) into multichannel for both music and HT. I'm finding the costs staggering, and for someone like me, having one system that does both well will be the only option. It would be nice to have two seperate multichannel systems, but just not practical for a lot of people. I just figure if I spend over $1k on a universal player, it better be able to handle HT well enough for my needs without a seperate pre/pro or receiver. Maybe it's not realistic, but I sure hope so

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 01:01 am »

I hear ya, OBF. I'm certainly no high roller, either. That's why a preamp w/pass thru would be soooo cool! I could consolidate all my stuff into one really good system (although I'll always keep some sort of system upstairs- I need a place to retreat to when the house gets too busy. And I like to play a little music late at nite sometimes).

My idea of a dream preamp? Two 6 Ch inputs; one of them a regular input and one a 6-Ch HT pass thru input. Then 3 to 5 regular inputs. No crossovers, minimal gainstage, pretty minimalist with no tone controls. I would have a remote, though. Balanced inputs would be optional for me. At least one tape loop would be nice. No bells or whistles needed, just the same care for signal integrity that one would give a 2-CH preamp. I'd opt for a machined aluminum face plate with simple unadorned elegance.

Maybe my dream preamp isn't what others want, but at least it'll give Curt and other mfg'rs what the customer is looking for.

randog · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 02:16 am »

Well it seems like he has 3 potential customers right here agreeing wholeheartedly in theory! (even if minor details differ)

Look at it this way: a 6 channel preamp (5.1) could sing with multi-channel and 2-channel music *and* HT. The source component (DVD, SACD) gets burdened with the processing (bass management as well or add an ICBM if needed) and the preamp stays simple and pure along with the amps. When the formats change (as they have been every year for the last 5 or more), the burden is not placed on your sweet preamp or amps for an upgrade, but that single source component that causes all the multi-channel issues in the first place!

Of course, along with the multi-channel inputs, all the normal 2-channel inputs would be integrated into this dream preamp as well.

Lexicon, B&K, Sunfire, etc have to be pulling their hair out trying to sell high-end surround processors only to see different surround formats spring up the following year. They try and make their units upgradeable, but it's hard to design for the unknown. Hence B&K Ref 20, Ref 30, Ref 50, etc. It's a joke, really... a rich man's shell game.

I'm assembling a system with an Outlaw 1050 and Odyssey Tempest and Odyssey Stratos amps. It's much too complicated for what I'm trying to achieve.

There is a better way. This is it. A music lovers solution to multi-channel.

Randog

Curt · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 03:39 pm »

Hi Guys,

Well, this is how we do it in Asia now. All the players have built-in decoders and 5.1 analog outputs. I love this.

We can mod the player to pump up the analog audio output quality then feed it direct to a high-end audio system consisting of: (1) six channel preamp; (6) MB-100s (I did design them for HT); and loudspeakers of choice.

This means whenever they change format or a player goes bad just toss it and replace it with a new "moded" unit. The high-end audio components last forever! Very cool.

Last time I looked in the US this was not the case, receivers dominated the HT business. Maybe things are changing now. The players here all have had analog outputs, far back as I can remember.

Most of the Asian HT market is not as high-end as the US and I thought I'd wait until players like this were available in the US before IRD produced a multi-channel preamp.

So fill me in... is the US ready? Do the players have analog outputs?

How many channels for a preamp 6 or 8? This is possible and it can be VERY high-end. Not too expensive but, not cheap either.

This thread is over due, glad it's finally taking place.

OBF · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 04:56 pm »

Curt,

I think it's safe to say that ALL the new DVD/hi-rez players released in the US will have 5.1 analog outputs and DD/DTS decoding. The newest generation to be released will all have bass management for both DVD and SACD also.

Also, not everyone here might agree, but if this is going to be a dual purpose preamp, a remote contol is essential. Doesn't have to be full function (that would be nice if it didn't compromise sonics too much), but at least volume control. Personally, I'd vote for 6 channel and not 8 as I think 7.1 is really for just the most die hard HT enthusiasts and this preamp would have to be marketed toward hi-rez music people who also want to integrate a decent HT.

If I understand what you're saying about modding for higher output, would it be safe to say that the Modwright and EVS mods, which replace the player's opamp based analog outputs with a tube stage and discrete FET stage respectively, would address that issue? Are we talking about the same thing?

I think the US is ready for such a preamp. I think the Audio Refinement Pre 5 is manufactured in Asia and it hits the $1,000 price point. I suspect IRD could build a better product.

Curt · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 05:23 pm »

OBF,

Guess I was behind on the US HT offerings. This sounds about right then to start thinking about a nice 5.1 six channel preamp.

The remote for volume control would be nice for 2CH but, doesn't the player have a remote with a volume control also? I was thinking set the preamp to a 0dB gain (or whatever) and use the players remote for VC.

If the preamp did have a remote VC, do you believe all channels need to go up-down together at the same rate. Should channel level controls (say +/- 6dB) be included for room-equipment balance between channels?

I will go look at some units available to see what they are offering. It will be interesting to see how they handle the subwoofer integration and read more about bass management.

Yes IRD is in a good position to offer a good high-end unit at a price point. I would not be hard to rough out a design and get an idea what a unit like this would sell for. We are knee deep in preamps right now... what's one more.

Curt · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: OBF

If I understand what you're saying about modding for higher output, would it be safe to say that the Modwright and EVS mods, which replace the player's opamp based analog outputs with a tube stage and discrete FET stage respectively, would address that issue? Are we talking about the same thing?

You can mod starting at the D/A and continue right on through to the output RCAs. The moding is for higher quality sonic output, a more high-end sound.

I believe this is what Modwright has in mind with their offerings. Each company that offers mods may have a different idea of what works best for what player and then you just read reviews and select the one you like best.

Yes, same thing.

OBF · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 07:23 pm »

I'm not much of an HT expert, but I don't think most DVD players have a good volume control, but maybe others know more about that. Normally your receiver or pre/pro would handle volume, level matching, time delay, and bass management. If the new crop of players can handle bass management, then having independent adjustment pots for each channel, as you mention, would be good and then a master volume for all 6 channels. Some people don't care for remotes and some do, but personally, I think this type of preamp would appeal to a much larger audience if it was remote controlled. I wouldn't be interested otherwise. The McCormack uses some sort of fancy .5 db digital volume control, but costs $2,395.

You might want to study the new Denon 2900 and the new Yamaha S2300 universal to get an idea of the feature sets and how much they can do independent of a digital output to a pre/pro, so the preamp only does the bare minimum.

With the right balance between sonic purity and a limited number of features, it could be a real winner.

Curt · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Apr 2003, 07:41 pm »

OBF, Thanks for your input.

The volume control in the players is digital (before the D/A) and works well.

The 0.5dB digital McCormack is probably a Crystal IC device. I've used them before and so has several other high-end companies. If it takes in an analog input it would need to convert back to digital then back again to analog before the pre output. Boy, that don't sound good...

I'll take a look around, thanks.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 01:43 am »

I haven't seen much for DVD/HiRez players with a volume. You would need the ability to adjust each channel to balance the sound, then have a master volume. I agree, remote is a near necessity, although I could live with just a remote volume. Naturally if it doesn't compromise the sound.

While I'm dreaming anyway, I would love the idea of two sets of 5.1 inputs; one a regular input and one a pass thru. Would it work to have the one of them configurable with an internal pin or jumper to give the end user a choice?

I'd definately rather see bass management offloaded completely to the player or an external x-over, such as an Outlaw ICBM. That would save expense and extra circuitry for those that don't need them while allowing the unit to stay "purist" and future proof.

I'm ready for one!

randog · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 06:14 pm »

Curt,

Thanks for hearing us out here. I'm not sure if the mainstream crowd will catch on, but I'm quite sure the audiophile crowd will in short order. Again, I think you could be ahead of the game should you choose to pursue it.

I read your post on your new purest preamp on HD, http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10199 and your new offerings look real exciting. I think a 6-channel pre would fit right in!

I agree that the best goal would be to keep it simple and pure but with the hooks built in for flexibility (i.e: consideration for an external phono stage which would also be offered by you!

). I think the potential customers would appreciate something along the lines of your new top offerings wrt design, component selection, etc. In other words, potential customers would likely want 'a cut above' as an excuse to veer away from the norm and something to keep for the long haul.

It should retain the same number of 2-channel inputs as your current offerings. I wouldn't want to give up any 2's to get 5's

Rob, why would you want a pass-through? I would think that would add a lot of hardware and wiring which would add a percentage to the price.

If the remote added much cost and complexity, could that be offloaded from the main unit as well? Or is your manufacturing set up to offer different options of the same unit? I agree it would be nice, especially for HT. Multi-channel music, not so much so. Folks get real giddy over simple but high-quality machined aluminum remotes... myself included.

Your question about 6 or 8 channels: are there players with more than 5.1 decoding out there? If not, I'd say 6 for sure. You could always plug in an 8-channel model down the road if/when the industry goes there. Even so, I'd still buy the 6-channel myself.

Simple, pure, flexibility and possible modularity. Oh yea, and don't forget the vinyl woodgrain.

Thanks for listening,
Randog

bubba966 · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 08:46 pm »

Quote from: randog

Rob, why would you want a pass-through?

I'd bet that it's because he's got a 5.1 source connected to his receiver (X-Box) as well as his DV-45A. He probably would run the 45A straight to the 6 channel pre, and his 'box to the receiver. Then he'd run his receiver's pre-outs to the pass-through input on the 6 channel pre.

Having 2 5.1 inputs on a 6 channel pre with one of them being a pass-through input seems like a good idea to me. There are some of us running more than one 5.1 channel source. I've actually got 5 MC sources that I run in 7.1. So if I was to get a 6 (or better yet an 8 channel) channel pre I'd really need 2 5.1 (or preferrably 7.1) inputs with one of them being a pass-through.