AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Hyperion 938 Speaker Owners => Topic started by: Dracule1 on 30 Jul 2005, 04:13 am
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Since this subject was my primary interest for starting the Hyperion 938 Owners Circle, I would like to share my experience.
There are couple of stock items that ship with the speakers that must be ditched IMHO. The brass jumpers that connects the midrange and tweeter needs to be replaced by a real high grade speaker cable jumpers, preferably the same wire used for your speaker cable. The stock wire jumpers from the midrange to the bass module also must go. I have tried the stock jumpers and they significantly veil the sound. I am biwiring with silver cables with silver jumpers from the midrange to the tweeter. Good jumpers go for about $50 for both speakers. The next item is the original small speaker spikes that came with the first shipment of speakers. The spikes are a bitch to deal with if your floor is not perfectly flat, and it's difficult to get proper coupling to the floor. Also, if you man-handle the speakers, the weak spikes can actually deform the bottom of the speakers. The later generation shipments have these heavy duty steel bars that screws beneath the speakers, and spikes go through the bars. These are much easier to adjust and provide a much more stable platform for the speakers. I have compared both, and the new speaker "stands" sound better. Bass is tighter and imaging more precise. If you have the older spikes, I suggest getting the new ones. It should retrofit without problems. I don't know the price, but can't imagine them being that expensive.
Another issue deals with further stablizing the bass module. My listening room floor is wood, and there are irregularities that makes it difficult to get proper leveling of the speakers. I bought 3/4" thick MDF from Home Depot and cut them approximately 4" wider than the bottom dimensions of the bass module. I placed them underneath. Now the spikes dig into the MDF about 1/8 of inch, and the speakers are solid and level without a hint of rocking when you try to push it. I suggest getting a leveler (those thingys with the bubble that carpenters use) to level the speakers flat. Furthermore, you don't have to damage your precious wood floor. This will cost you $7 for a 2' x 4', and Home Depot will cut them for you for free. I recommend this if you have wood floors or thin carpeting even if your floor is perfectly flat. Thick carpeting may present a stability problem.
I remember reading an professional online review (PFO?) where the reviewer felt there was chestiness to vocals. I had this problem early on and found the problem. Again it was a coupling issue. Although the bass module is around 70 lbs, it still can vibrate. The stock rubber feet underneath the upper mid/tweeter module isn't enough to fully cancel out vibrations from below. I bought 8 Bright Star Isonode Sorbathane feet ($40 total for the larger set of 8, don't get the smaller set because it can't handle the weight) and placed 4 below each mid/tweeter module. Chestiness gone! High frequency smoother. Better imaging and dimensionality. Although other factors could have contributed (e.g. the room, amplification, etc), this fixed the problem for me. For example, I was playing accapella male vocals, one of them a baritone. Before the tweak, the baritone sounded too thick and seem to come directly from the speaker, whereas the other three vocals were clearly behind the speakers. After the tweak, the baritone was properly placed with the rest of the vocals. BTW, the Isonode feet are sticky and can leave a mark on the piano black finish. I placed a small square sheet of Saran wrap on top and bottom of the feet to prevent this. Don't completely wrap the feet with Saran wrap as this will alter its antivibration property. I highly recommend this $40 tweak.
That's all for now. I have more I will share later. Anyone want to chime in with more tweaks please post. Thanks.
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Dracule1 :
I am biwiring with silver cables with silver jumpers from the midrange to the tweeter. Good jumpers go for about $50 for both speakers.
[/list:u]Which cable's might you be using ? Thanks !! :) [/list:u]
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Lonewoflny,
I am using Crystal Clear Studio Reference biwire cables with jumpers of the same brand.
http://www.crystalclearaudio.com/products.htm
Mel is a good guy and often discounts his products.
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I remember reading an professional online review (PFO?) where the reviewer felt there was chestiness to vocals. I
Well i think the 938 transparency deserves them sometimes because you can't just plug them on any amplifier with any cable and get a decent result.
They will reveal any weak component in your system and they are not forgiving at all (i hope my english is decent btw ;) ).
I just tried to put some Vibrapods under the two modules, i will let you know later if the improvement is here for me too.
I was also thinking about upgrading the filters components... and try to put some foam in the bass output slot...
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Hey Ndeslions,
Did you get improvement with Vibrapods? Never tried them myself.
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The stock rubber feet underneath the upper mid/tweeter module isn't enough to fully cancel out vibrations from below. I bought 8 Bright Star Isonode Sorbathane feet ($40 total for the larger set of 8, don't get the smaller set because it can't handle the weight) and placed 4 below each mid/tweeter module. Chestiness gone!
Dracule1,
The larger Isonode feet are 3/4" tall in their uncompressed state. I don't know how much they compress under the load of the upper cabinet but it seems like the gap between the 2 cabinets will be much larger if you use those feet than it is with the pads included with the speakers. Can you show us a picture of what the speaker look like with those feet?
Alternatively, 6 of the smaller (3/8" tall) feet could be used instead of 4. That would increase their load carrying capacity to 45# while minimizing the gap between the bass module and the upper cabinet. Maybe Bright Star will be able to tell us whether 4 of the large feet would be better than 6 of the small feet. In each case the load carrying capability is about the same.
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Good question. Well, I have not thought about using 6 of the smaller Isonodes, but by doing this you're probably increasing the surface contact area more so than with 4 larger Isonodes. The larger Isonodes I think compress close to about half their original height with the midrange/tweeter module on top. I was worried that the MDF and isonodes may increase the height of the speaker too much, but that has not been the case. The imaging and tonal balance has not changed for the worse, but for the better. My listening chair height can be adjusted but I have no need to do so. You could give the 6 smaller Isonodes a try if you feel the bigger ones would increase the height too much in your system. I think it's a good idea to ask Brightstar about this as you have mentioned.
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rwolters,
Here are pictures of my 938s with the Isonodes and MDF. What do you think?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=539
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rwolters,
Here are pictures of my 938s with the Isonodes and MDF. What do you think?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=539
Dracule1,
Thanks for the photos. The large isonode feet compress quite a bit and your upper cabinet doesn't look out of place sitting on them. The smaller isonodes may have a better appearance, but they may compress to the point that the stock rubber pads would need to be removed to prevent them from grounding out.
I called Bright Star today but didn't get anyone to answer. I've sent them and e-mail to see what they recommend... 4 large or 6 small isonodes. I'll let you know what I find out.
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rwolters,
I used 4 big isonodes under my previous integrated tube amp weighing 40 lbs, which is the upper limit of what the big isonodes are rated for. My integrated squashed them to a pancake permanently disorting them. What ever you do I would not go over more than 70% of what the feet are rated for.
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Hey rwolters,
Any luck with the Isonodes? Please post your impressions once you get a chance. Thanks.
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Hey rwolters,
Any luck with the Isonodes? Please post your impressions once you get a chance. Thanks.
Dracule1,
I've been away for a few days and didn't have access to email. But I'm back now and when I got home I found that my small Isonodes had arrived. I ordered a total of 12 of them after talking to Barry Kohan of Bright Star Audio on Friday. He told me that in addition to the maximum rated capacity for the isonodes, they also had an optimum load capability. For the Large Isonodes that is 8.5# and for the small ones it's 6.5#. I wasn't sure exactly what the weight of the upper cabinets was but assumed 6 isonodes per speaker would be enough. I just weighed one of my speakers and it is 32.4#. In that case 5 of the small isonodes may be a better match than 6. I haven't installed them yet. I'll try them in the next few days and report back.
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Great! I'm glad you got them. You should notice an immediate improvement, but I found it takes about a day for the isonodes to "settle in" to sound their best. :D Keep us updated.
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Not much of a tweak but I find terminating the speaker wires (Kimber 8TC) at the mid's binding posts and using jumpers (made from the same cable) to the tweeter and bass give the most transparent and widest soundstage.
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Roy,
Actually, what you did makes a significant difference over the stock jumpers that are provided. I could never go back to the stock jumpers. Sorry I haven't been able to post for the past week - too busy with work. I'll be posting pics of my completed system within the next couple of days. Enjoy your tweak and thanks for the input.
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Dracule1,
I've finally gotten around to installing the small Isonodes and improved jumper cables that connect the cabinets. I used 5 of the feet which would optimally support 32.5# (6.5# per foot). My upper cabinets each weighed about 32.4#. That cabinet weight was perfectly split between the front and rear of the cabinet so I installed one Isonode at each of the 4 corners and the 5th one right in the middle of the cabinet. The height of the small Isonodes, when compressed, raise the cabinet about 1/16" above the height of the stock feet. Therefore, I didn't need to remove them. As Dracule1 had suggested, I used saran wrap to prevent the sticky feet from damaging the gloss black finish of the Hyperion cabinets.
All I can say is WOW!!! Or should I say WOW, and Thank You very much. :mrgreen:
For as long as I've had these speakers I've been bothered by a bit of midrange glare that I was always aware of. I've tried different amps, passive versus active preamps, various speaker cables, and balanced versus single ended interconnects. I also tried the Super Silver Treatment on cable connections, various power cords, and different methods of power conditioning. All of these changes really didn't have much effect on addressing the issue I had. Of course there were changes, but I was still bothered by something in the midrange that prevented me from connecting with the music. I seemed to have many of the things that audiophiles look for. Imaging, extension at the frequency extremes, 3 dimensionality, and transparency were all present. The best way I can describe it is that voices and some instruments lacked a "natural" quality.
Well, that issue has been completely addressed, in my opinion, by the Bright Star Isonodes. Replacing the jumper cables with Kimber 4TC may be icing on the cake. I'm really not sure. I installed the Isonodes first and heard an immediate improvement. The Isonodes were installed for less that a day when I installed the replacement jumpers. Since I installed these tweaks I haven't removed them to reconfirm my original conclusions. There's just no need for that.
This morning I asked my wife sit down and listen to the system. Her response was just like mine, and just as immediate. We both hear a substantial improvement.
What this means is that all the judgements that I've made in the last year between the various cables, amps, preamps, etc. will all need to be redone. Fortunately, I still have, or have access to most of this stuff. It should be fun.
By the way, other owners may not have experienced the condition I'm talking about here. I don't recall magazine reviewers commenting on this either. I do have a friend who also owns the Hyperions and I've heard his speakers in my home and wasn't bothered by a slightly unnatural quality to the midrange of his. He has heard our speakers side by side too, and agreed that although our speakers sounded quite similar, that there was something missing in the sound of mine.
Once again Dracule1, thanks for sharing these tweaks with the group. It's been very beneficial for me. And to think this was accomplished with only $37.50 worth of Isonodes... just amazing.
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rwolters,
You're very welcome :D I'm just glad you had the same substantial improvement I had. I don't think many Hyperion owners realize the improvement sound you can get for under $40. Now if you want further improvement in your bass, try the $7 MDF tweak I described in my original post. Improvement is not as substantial as the Isonodes, but still noticeable - just depends on how well your bass modules are coupled to the floor to begin with.
If my biwire cables could be split to give longer separate runs, I would actually try to put the upper modules on my Osirus speaker stands that I bought awhile back but never had a chance to use. I would put the bass module medial to the upper module so they would be further away from the walls. I bet I could get even better results. But that will have to wait another day. :wink:
The midrange glare you were talking about could in part be due to the stock brass jumpers you were using. They really veil the upper midrange and high frequency IMHO. So using the Kimber jumpers was a great idea. But the Isonodes probably accounts for 80% of the difference you're hearing.
My new Jungson 88D amps have about 70 hours on them and has now really opened up. I'm enjoying the sound so much, I've been lazy to put pics up of my completed system. Stay tuned. 8)
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Hey 938 owners and those who have heard these speaekers, have you noticed an optimal placement distance of your speakers from the back wall? I had my speakers about 4.5 feet from the rear wall since I had bought my speakers. Last night, just for yucks I moved it another foot or so into the room - about 2/5 of the way into the room. This really had a noticeable improvement in imaging/staging and palpability. I thought my new Jungson was a little thin sounding in midrange, but it was really a speaker placement issue. Now vocals literally float in front of you with fullness (w/o bloat) that I haven't experienced in my room. When I first heard the speakers last year at the NY Show, they had the best imaging/staging and palpability I've in the past 20 years. I've been trying to get this sound for the past year, but never quite was able to - close but no cigar until now. It seems to me the 938s have best imaging at around 6 feet. I believe that's how they were placed at the '94 NY Show. Any similar experience?
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The isonode tweak sounds very enticing. I would definitely like to try this out. Dracule, you mentioned that the isonode will stain the black finish, how bad is it; do I have to cover both the top and bottom with wrap? Also, will the top cabinet "wobble" on the isonodes?
I think the spiderless midrange driver is so transparent that every single improvement can be enjoyed easily through the 938s :D
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Roy,
The isonodes will leave a thin residue on the piano finish, but it can be removed with a damp cloth. If left on long term, I don't know if permenant damage will occur. I do recommend using separate small sheets of Seran wrap on top and bottom of the isonodes to prevent residue.
As for the stability, the upper cabinet will mildy wobble if you push the cabinet, but if you use the smaller isonodes like Rwolters, it will probably be minimal.
The improvement is very significant and readily apparent, better than cable upgrade IMO.
It's dirt cheap too :mrgreen: .
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Got the Isonodes and installed them. What an improvement! Imaging, soundstaging improved! The slight veil (grain) in the upper midrange also disappeared. Sounds like a complete different speaker!
I strongly recommend all 938 owners to get these Isonode stuff, they are worth every cent.
Thanks Dracule1 for the tip!!!
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That's great Roy. We are all hearing similar improvements. For me the greatest benefit was in the vocals and horns. They both sound buttery smooth and float holographically in front of you. The treble also becomes cleaner and crisper. You hear more ambient information. Everything sounds more natural and involving with the isonodes in place. Hope more owners will trust us and try this out.
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Someone I know is bringing some Isonodes from the States for me by the end of September... I'm very curious aftrer reading all this...
Another tweak I'll try out for my 906 is filling the lower cabinet (the hollow stand) with a garbagebag, filled with +- 100 pounds of sand for improved dampening and stability.
Greetings Roeland
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Welcome back Roeland :D. I think you will hear benefits with the isonodes as well, but I'm not sure to what extent since the 906 does not have a bass module underneath mucking up the sound. Stablizing the stands with sand is a good idea. Keep us posted.
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Don't worry if it takes a while, my friend is going to the States somewhere around 20 September, so I'll have them by the end of September/beginning of October.
the sand is for the end of September, I'm now doing a holiday job for a couple of weeks, so no music for me now :cry: The hollow stand is happily vibrating along witht the speaker, thus influencing the sound too i suppose.
Maybe Albert Wu can shed a light on the choice for a hollow stand (soundwise)?
Roeland
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You thought the Isonodes were great...I got another tweak that rivals them for about the same price. Stay tuned while I complete my evaluation.
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Hey Dracule,
Very curious what that may be :) I just have received the Isonodes, will try them somewhere next week...
Roeland
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Hey Dracule,
Can't wait to hear what this is !!
Nick
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Hey guys, sorry I've been MIA - been on vacation. My new tweak is the Star Sound Technologies brass coupling discs (APCD2) which are intended to be placed beneath their audio points. I really didn't think the coupling discs would have an audible effect. I was intending to put them underneath the speaker spikes so they wouldn't dig too deep in the MDF board I placed beneath the speakers. But it did have a significant effect on the sound. Whereas the Isonodes make the most improvement in the midrange and high frequenies, the coupling discs really improves the bass quality - more defined and tuneful. I also noticed more improvement in the ambient information in the recording - more volume in the soundstage. And music is more dynamic than before. The coupling discs go for $8 each new, but I was able to get B-stock items for $4.50 each directly from Star Sound Technologies. For a set of 8 and S/H, it cost me $43.50. The next logical step is to ditch the stock steel spikes and try their brass audio points, but these are expensive probably costing several hundred depending on what model you choose.
Always interested in what you guys have to say.
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Hi Dracule
An interesting post and mirroring my own experience to a great extent.
I have been "decoupling" (I think this is what you are doing in effect) my speakers for a few years now because I hated the overly dry "hi-fi" bass/mid that spiking seemed to give. I use the excellent, but I believe discontinued, ART Q Dampers for this and really like the more relaxed/natural presentation this gives, especially in the bass. I keep meaning to try the Sonic Design damping feet but this would require I "defeat" the carpet on the floor. However on your MDF bases these would work and they are quite inexpensive, take a look if you like http://www.soundcare.no/ . Of course this only my opinion and there are others who still go for the spike route. It's the differences that make this hobby so interesting !!
Best wishes
Nick
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Hey Nick,
Funny you mention the Soundcare spikes. I almost bought them last year when I had my first pair of 938s with the older flimsy spikes, but I thought they would raise the speakers up too high. Seems like the 938s are high resolution transducers that you can hear slight changes in set up like the coupling discs.
Yes, it's fun and gratifying when you can get significant changes in sound with so little investment.
Regards,
Dracule
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Hi Dracule
Oops looks like I posted the wrong link !!
:?
Should have been http://www.sonicdesign.co.uk/
Cheers
Nick
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Greetings All,
My 938's are barely broken in, but I already have some of Herbie's Gabon Ebony domes (which I had to hand) under the upper cabinet. These were a great improvement, sort of putting a neck between the head and chest of vocal presentation and thus making it right. Nonetheless, I plan to try the isonodes. I wanted to check if you are still keen on using the 5 smaller isonodes and that they haven't compressed too far a couple of months down the track. Is that the case? I might also try some of Herbie's tenderfeet for comparison.
Feet for the bass unit seem to be a bigger question mark. I understand that Hyperion have stopped shipping the foot/spike cross-brace with the speakers and that they now recommend their spikes straight into the unit. I haven't been able to get a response as to what prompted this change, but I'd be surprised if the supplied spikes can't be bettered by other stuff on the market like the sonic design, soundcare options. If they'll take the weight I'll try domes when they're freed up.
cheers,
Paul
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I have just joined the Hyperion 938 circle and following a comment to Audiogon on the 938s I copied this to the review section if anyone is interested.Sorry about the long preamble.I have to express my thanks to the Circle in particular Dracule as I tried the isolation damping between the bass unit and top unit and my what an improvement. Therewas an immediate improvement in the mid and treble areas more open and transparent but at the same time smoother.The bass also seemed tighter and Ifeel sure stereo imagery was improved.Iwas really surprised by this as I did not think there was anything wrong with the sound in the first place and the improvement was not subtle.The best got better!!!!!!!!!! I bi-wired the speakers from the beginning using Black Rhodium Polar Knight DCT(Deep Cryogenic Treatment) and the link to the bass unit used a piece of the same cable.I look forward to being a member of the Circle and thanks again for such an improvement at so littlecost. Sibelius
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Hi folks,
I would like to know if there have been any developments as far as what people are using under the bass cabinets of the 938s. My pair came with the cross-brace for the feet but I understand these braces are no longer being shipped. I currently have the feet and braces removed, with Herbie’s Big Fat Black Dots directly between the bass cabinets and a spiked concrete base. This is the best result I’ve achieved so far but I suspect better can be had.
In particular I wonder if anyone has tried Symposium Svelte Shelves under the 938s.
regards, Paul
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Do you guys know what internal wiring the 938s use? Silver, copper, hybrid??
TIA!!!
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I took a look inside the 938s awhile back. The internal wiring all copper baby. I was tempted to change it to silver but that would probably void the warrenty so I left it alone.
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Thanks Dracule!! Are the internal wirings the same as those of the jumpers??? TIA!
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Roark, the wring inside has clear insulation. Not sure of the gauge and purity.
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Thanks Dracule!!!! :):):)
Roark, the wring inside has clear insulation. Not sure of the gauge and purity.
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Hi everyone,
I really wanted to get the isonodes everyone here recommended and have benefited from, but unfortunately for me, the country I am in, there is no dealer with isonodes.. One dealer thought they did but called me back later to tell me they mis-quoted..anyway, to make the long story short, only choice I could think of was putting steel spikes and disks under the top units so I did...
I put them on when the speakers were new, so I don't know how they would have sounded without them. Would spikes rip similar benefits as did isonodes ? anyone try the spikes instead of isonode stuff ?
Paul
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Paul,
Are the spikes permanently afixed to the mid/tweeter module? If they are, I commend you on your cohones to actually do that to your speaker! If they aren't, just take them off and see if there's a difference. But if you read my original post on the Isonodes, they made such a big difference I can't imagine your approach being better although you may achieve similar improvement. The Isonodes ABSORBS a wide range of vibrations wheres as the spikes/disks will try to ISOLATE the module from vibrations through minimal contact. The new 968s use the spikes/disks approach so your thinking is more inline with Hyperion's.
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ah...
I didn't screw them on but actually I used the doublesided tape by 3M...holds the screws very well...too me a couple of miracles to position them right on the disks though...I really did want to use the isonodes as they are proven solution but too bad there wasn't a wise enough dealer in Korea selling these goodies...
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If you are interested, I can get a set of 8 isonodes and send them to you, but you'll need to pay for the cost of the isonodes and shipping to Korea. I will not be able to do this until mid november, however.
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Hi Dracule,
thanks for that offer...really do appreciate... let me see if I can get my hands on them until Nov. and if no, I may need to take that offer and get your help...regardless, thanks for going extra mile to help other hyperion owners !! ;-)
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Hi all
I just ordered some Isonodes online from Bright Star Audio. I can't wait to get them and see what sort of difference they make- the 938s sound so good now I'm not sure what I'm after, but it should be fun!
Regards
Aragorn
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I too have ordered the isonodes from Bright Star. I haven't been sent the confirmation E mail confirming my order as of yet, but I am wanting a little crisper highs, I had British speakers before these.
I have put about 100 hours on these speakers since last Friday and have enjoyed listening to these open up.
I would like the spikes to make better contact to the cement floor through the carpet, I think that the spikes are still on the carpet/underpad and not directly on the cement.
It is still a work in progress.
With minaml toe-in 1/2" or so is working for me, anything much more than that places the soundstage just between the speakers.
My room is 18' deep by 11'3" wide and 8'3" high. I would have liked a wider room, but for now this is what I have to work with.
Enjoy these speakers:)
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Well the Brightstar IsoNodes arrived.
I put them on after a good, solid, critical listen to Norah Jones on SACD.
The difference is definite but not huge so these comments relate to the 938s with IsoNodes inplace, not either in isolation.
The midrange detail is improved, there is less "glare" in the midrange, although I hadn't noticed any glare before. The overall effect is more naturalness and even more effortlessness, which has always been the best feature of this speaker. The midrange is very special, with lots of unforced detail and a yumminess that is hard to describe. Human voice gives a real understanding of the breath, chest, larynx and mouth contributions to forming the note, and talented singers leave you in awe of their abilities. I can fully appreciate singing compared to what I try to do!
I am very happy with the changes, as the speaker was great before and now matches, literally, anything I have heard (bear in mind I've not heard systems over 50000 AUD). Listening is such a pleasure that the system disappears and you sing along (or try to), foot a-tapping and dancing when the music is made for dancing. I am fully satisfied with the 938s, and think they are excellent value-for-money.
Now to listen a bit more....
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Aragorn, I like your sonic descriptors..."yumminess that is hard to describe". Yes, the Isonodes smooths out the sound but at the same time increase natural detail.
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Does anybody have a schematic diagram of these speakers? Am thinking of tweaking its crossover, perhaps using better parts.
Thanks in advance!
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I think you'd be better off contacting Hyperion directly for the schematics. But you really shouldn't need this. Just take out the crossover and replace the stock parts with better ones.
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Hi Dracule,
Thank you for the immediate reply. I was hoping someone here knows the schematics. I am afraid that Hyperion might not give it to me. In any case, I have upgraded the crossover of my previous speakers and the improvement was fantastic. I have already seen the crossover of the 938s and they used generic parts. I bet if I replace the parts with say audionote or jensen caps, miller resistors, etc, it will sound a lot better. It's a big risk, but it's something I am willing to take for sure.
Cheers!! :D :D :D
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guys,
quick question, I am trying to dampen the bass a bit due to my limited room size. do you know if it is ok to plug some cloth/sponge inside the front port of 938 ? usually for other ported speakers, it is perfectly ok to do, but wasn't sure if it is for 938s.
thanks...also any good cable recommendation to tighten up that bass, would appreciate.
I am currently using VDH jubilee and Stereovox Colibri for interconnects and AP Oval 9 with HGA silver jumpers for speaker cable. Did I mix things up too much here ?
Paul
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Hey Roark, please (!) let us all know how you go with tweaking the crossovers.
Sorry Pkoh70, I don't know about damping the ports, and as for cables, all of mine are from a local Australian manufacturer (I love 'em). I have heard that Symposium Svelte shelves are great under speakers for cleaning up bass and reducing bloom. I'd love to try them, but can't come to the cost.
cheers,
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I use some Finite Element Ceraball Universal instead of the Hyperion spikes under my 968, nice improvement in overall clarity and they are not very expensive.
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Hi Paul,
I am putting this project on hold in the meantime. I will let you guys know as soon as I decide to take it on.
Thanks!
Hey Roark, please (!) let us all know how you go with tweaking the crossovers.
Sorry Pkoh70, I don't know about damping the ports, and as for cables, all of mine are from a local Australian manufacturer (I love 'em). I have heard that Symposium Svelte shelves are great under speakers for cleaning up bass and reducing bloom. I'd love to try them, but can't come to the cost.
cheers,
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I just ordered 8 of those larger brightstar isonodes.
In the following 6 moons review of the 968 model... http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hyperion5/968.html
There are a lot of pictures that shows the back is tilted a bit higher and i see hard steel feet like i have seen under the woofer cabinet, only they are smaller i think for the mid/high module.
The 938's that i auditioned and bought don't have those feet.
I don't even know that the 938 ever came included with these steel feet.
The back of the mid/high module is propably tilted for better focus to the listening place when your sitting low and relaxed in the sofa.
Anyone experimented with tilting the module at the back?
If so, i'm trying to think of a solution of doing so with the sorbathane feet and something else maybe.
I'm not sure if this issue has allready been posted, but any recommendations? Or is it just right when the mid/high module is flat?
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Rc, nice to see you are enthusiastic about your new speakers, but how about taking one step at a time. See how the sorbathane feet work for you and worry about the tilt later.
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Rc, nice to see you are enthusiastic about your new speakers, but how about taking one step at a time. See how the sorbathane feet work for you and worry about the tilt later.
Still waiting for the isonode feet but for my liking the tweeter could be angled a little lower.
Since i'm going to have 4 of these isonodes with each speaker, i'm thinking of using 2 on the left and right corner at the front of the module and (glue) 2 halves to one ball and use it in the middle of the rear side of the module.
This way i have 3 contact points and the back will be tilted somewhat.
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RC, just remember the Isonodes are rated for a small range of load (weight). If you go over or under their rating by adding more Isonodes, it may not be as effective. I personally would change my listening height at the chair than try to change with Isonodes which may not be stable the way you decribe using them.
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RC, just remember the Isonodes are rated for a small range of load (weight). If you go over or under their rating by adding more Isonodes, it may not be as effective. I personally would change my listening height at the chair than try to change with Isonodes which may not be stable the way you decribe using them.
Ok , the larger isonodes i have can carry up to 19kg the package says while the module is 15kg.
I'm using 3 contact points.
I managed to tilt the back somewhat becausse i used 2 isonodes on top of each other for one contact point at the back.
Here are some pictures...(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21458)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21459)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21460)
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Forget my previous post, i found something much better to achieve it and it's much more stable then with 3 contact points.
I'm using 4 isonodes as usual but at the back i'm using these shockabsorbers i actually found accidently in a shop.
They are about 1cm high which is enough to tilt the back of the module to the perfect sweetspot.
I'm only not sure in what way i will combine the isonodes with these shock absorbers.
Look at the pics and let me know in what way you think is most effective to use them.(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21483)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21484)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21485)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21486)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21487)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21488)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21489)
Also, did anyone tried to place the flat side of the isonodes to the lower cabinet.
Since the isonodes are made for one component the flat side has to be up but if the isonodes are between two cabinets...
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:duh: RC...Dude you're killing me! How about just listening to the isonodes as I have prescribed, before your quest for a Rube Goldberg contraption? You're missing out on the music!!
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:duh: RC...Dude you're killing me! How about just listening to the isonodes as I have prescribed, before your quest for a Rube Goldberg contraption? You're missing out on the music!!
Oh, i did, it sounds great with isonodes! they are not standard rubber like some products but they have some hard gel of sorts.
Good things and i used them as described Dracule1.
I found some inprovement when i lifted the back, but rest easy, it's done in a proper and stable way.
I consider this mod aproved and done.
But i have an other worry about the HPS-906, see the more appropiate topic.
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Roy,
The isonodes will leave a thin residue on the piano finish, but it can be removed with a damp cloth. If left on long term, I don't know if permenant damage will occur. I do recommend using separate small sheets of Seran wrap on top and bottom of the isonodes to prevent residue.
As for the stability, the upper cabinet will mildy wobble if you push the cabinet, but if you use the smaller isonodes like Rwolters, it will probably be minimal.
The improvement is very significant and readily apparent, better than cable upgrade IMO.
It's dirt cheap too :mrgreen: .
I just left the white backing sheets on the isonodes... I don't think it will change the isonodes doing their work.
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Someone I know is bringing some Isonodes from the States for me by the end of September... I'm very curious aftrer reading all this...
Another tweak I'll try out for my 906 is filling the lower cabinet (the hollow stand) with a garbagebag, filled with +- 100 pounds of sand for improved dampening and stability.
Greetings Roeland
Hi Roeland, i have seen you are also from Belgium, it's a small world eh?
I tried to PM you but it wouldn't work through this site, i got an error, dunno if your still posting here though.
still got your 906's? Done the sandbag mod?
Greetz
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I am currently using the Bright Star Isonode Sorbathane feet under the mid/tweeter module. They certainly are improvements over the stock feet.
I have read great feedback about the Herbie Big Fat dot (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#von), which have significant improvements on Von Schweikert.
One comments suggested that:
"Decoupling with compliant materials like Sorbothane is usually worse. Your intuition about compliant interface, with speakers, is correct. With compliant materials, the idea isn't to let vibrations dissipate, but is to absorb vibrations (transfer the energy to heat). Rubber and Sorbothane, and most squishy materials will absorb some vibrations but yet by their compliant nature will also allow the cabinet to vibrate unconstrained to some degree. Then, rubbery materials will introduce resonances of their own into the cabinet that affect the speakers' drivers. Any benefit you get is usually at the cost of some detrimental trade-off.
Have anyone of you tried the Herbie Big Fat dot and compare that to the Isonode?
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I am currently using the Bright Star Isonode Sorbathane feet under the mid/tweeter module. They certainly are improvements over the stock feet.
I have read great feedback about the Herbie Big Fat dot (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#von (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#von)), which have significant improvements on Von Schweikert.
One comments suggested that:
"Decoupling with compliant materials like Sorbothane is usually worse. Your intuition about compliant interface, with speakers, is correct. With compliant materials, the idea isn't to let vibrations dissipate, but is to absorb vibrations (transfer the energy to heat). Rubber and Sorbothane, and most squishy materials will absorb some vibrations but yet by their compliant nature will also allow the cabinet to vibrate unconstrained to some degree. Then, rubbery materials will introduce resonances of their own into the cabinet that affect the speakers' drivers. Any benefit you get is usually at the cost of some detrimental trade-off.
Have anyone of you tried the Herbie Big Fat dot and compare that to the Isonode?
bkh,,, I'll give you a headsup right now just incase you haven't heard or taken steps to protect your loudspeaker finish, those Isonodes will not only stain the finish, if you leave them on long enough it'll take a scrapper to remove them. I have the permanent stains on my Sanus rack shelves as a reminder. Those Isonodes are a POS in my humble opinion.
No such issues with Herbies Big Fat Dots which I'm using with a 2" marble platform on top of my ACI Force XL subwoofer for mass loading. :thumb:
As far as any comparisons between the 2 in your situation, I don't have a clue.
Cheers,
Robin
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Robin - Thanks for the heads up. I did use plastic to wrap around the Isonode to protect my speaker finish. With the weight of the mid/tweeter module, the isonode did squash flat like a POS.
I am interested to replace Isonode with Herbie's Big Fat Dot. Wanted to find out if this is worth for upgrade.
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Well you might want to post in Herbie's Circle and get Steve's thoughts. There's really only one way to know for sure tho and that's to do a comparison for yourself. Herbie gives you a 90 day money back option on all his products and I can assure you the USPS shipping charges won't kill ya. :lol:
I'm glad to hear you're not learning the hard way like I did on them Isonodes. They're bad news stainwise and just generally messy to deal with once they've flattened out if you haven't used some sort of protection with them.
Cheers,
Robin
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Guys, I specifically said use Saran wrap to protect your speaker from the Isonodes in my original post. As far as Isonodes being POS, I really disagree. Those of us who have use the appropriate number of the Isonodes (these have an optimal load) have heard the obvious benefits. As far has Herbies stuff goes, I am a fan. Should be interesting how Big Fat Dot compare with the Isonodes.
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Hi
I ow a pair of Hyperion 938s and want to change the crossovers and generally upgrade.
I live in Abu Dhabi home is Ireland .Spoke by E mail to John in Russ Andrews who was most helpful .Can this upgrade be done on a DIY basis.I believe the rear panels of the lower unit have to be removed to gain access to the inside.
Has anybody done this as I am concerned over making a total mess of the piano black finish.
Thanks
AlanJL
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Hi
I ow a pair of Hyperion 938s and want to change the crossovers and generally upgrade.
I live in Abu Dhabi home is Ireland .Spoke by E mail to John in Russ Andrews who was most helpful .Can this upgrade be done on a DIY basis.I believe the rear panels of the lower unit have to be removed to gain access to the inside.
Has anybody done this as I am concerned over making a total mess of the piano black finish.
Thanks
AlanJL
Have you read this topic allready??
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69979.0
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I spoke to John in Russ Andrews who suggested because the 938 is a complex speaker. The task of changing the crossovers was not exactly simple and he did not have all the info at hand on the work they done for a previous customer.
I think I will err on the side of caution and wait till I return home and send the units to RA and let the professionals do it.
Thanks for the link ::
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I spoke to John in Russ Andrews who suggested because the 938 is a complex speaker. The task of changing the crossovers was not exactly simple and he did not have all the info at hand on the work they done for a previous customer.
I think I will err on the side of caution and wait till I return home and send the units to RA and let the professionals do it.
Thanks for the link ::
I was considering myself to do this upgrade as a DIY as i don't like the idea of shipping the speakers from Belgium where i live to Russ Andrews. If you do send the units to Russ Andrews, hopefuly this time they keep track of all the info needed for this upgrade. Maybe you could remind them. :wink:
Anyways, if you do the upgrade, then please keep us posted on how the changes turned out for you.
I wish you all the best. :thumb:
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Hey, thanks for the great forum. I just picked up a pair of 938's and was shocked at how glaring the midrange was. The previous speakers in the hot seat were my Spendor SP1's which have a pretty amazing midrange, so the competition was pretty tough.
I was just about to sell them after about 30 minutes of listening, then I discovered the post about the Isonodes. I just tucked them under the midrange cabinets and the results were pretty dramatic!
I'm going to fool around with room placement and treatments now to further improve the sound. Thanks for the tip!!
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Hey, thanks for the great forum. I just picked up a pair of 938's and was shocked at how glaring the midrange was. The previous speakers in the hot seat were my Spendor SP1's which have a pretty amazing midrange, so the competition was pretty tough.
I was just about to sell them after about 30 minutes of listening, then I discovered the post about the Isonodes. I just tucked them under the midrange cabinets and the results were pretty dramatic!
I'm going to fool around with room placement and treatments now to further improve the sound. Thanks for the tip!!
Glad you like these speakers, it is a treasure to find a less known speakers that performs beyond you think was a good and maybe "safe" place to be in.
Dynaudio and Spendor were my favorite speakers before i heard the Hyperion 938, so i think we have about he same taste of how a speakers should sound... natural. Not that i have become a nay sayer to other speakers like Spendor, they are still good speakers in the right circumstances, room, acoustics and placement. Regarding room placement, don't place them to close to the front wall. Stereo image and depth will suffer. There is some info on this forum regarding the 938 speakers but feel free to ask or post your experience. :wink:
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Bassphil, I'm surprised you found the midrange of the 938s glaring :o. Even without the isonodes, it should not sound glaring. Yes, the isonodes will noticeably improve the sound. But your initial assessment puts up red flags. May be it's your room, AC noise, electronics, or cables that's causing the glaring midrange. I have heard 938s in many different rooms and with many different electronics. I would have never described the midrange as glaring. Can you give us some idea of your setup (room dimension, electronics, speaker placement, room treatment, etc)?
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I was surprised as well, actually. One possibility is that my preamp seems to have developed a resistor or FET issue, so it's in the shop now. I can't imagine that was affecting the tone that much, though. It was creating a little noise in the left channel... A friend of mine is sending me his preamp prototype to use until my pre is fixed. It should be in on Monday. I'm curious (and hopeful) to see if that was the issue.
As far as components and cabling, I have good stuff: Audio Research SP11 MK2 retubed with brand new Genelic reissues, a Digital Amplifier Company Cherry Plus, Cary Xciter DAC, and all Analysis-Plus Solo Crystal Oval interconnects and speaker wires.
I'm connecting the speaker wires to the midrange posts, then jumping from there. When I get a working pre back in the system, maybe I'll experiment with connecting them to other posts and see what happens.
Room placement could definitely be an issue. The room is 14' wide X 20' long with and 8' high ceiling. The stereo is on the 14' wide wall. The problem is the entrance into the room.
If you are sitting in the listening position on one wall looking at the stereo, the stereo has to be shifted to the left of center because the entrance to the room is along the right side. It's an upstairs room and the staircase comes up though the middle of the house.
Anyway, because of this, I can only get the speakers out from the rear wall about a foot and a half. The right right speaker is 4' from the side wall (and entrance opening) and the left speaker is about a foot and a half from the side wall. They're about 7 and a half feet apart and ever so sprightly toed in. The listening position is about 11 feet away. It's all plaster and lathe, but the wall behind the listening position has a giant curtain rod with two thick curtains on it. There is plenty of diffusion going on, but I certainly need some treatments.
Still, I've recently had both Magnepan's and then Spendor SP1's in the same position and the only think I noticed was over saturation on the bass frequencies, not weird midrange. When I walk up to the 938’s and put my ear up to the midrange driver, I can hear the glare- the character of the midrange.
Some recordings are fine, but others are pretty awful. Jazz piano recordings seem to be the most affected, though the Isonodes helped chill it out a bit. I thought that these speakers were supposed to be forgiving of poorly recorded recordings, but they seem to be waaaay less forgiving than the Spendors, which I thought were pretty studio-monitor-like!
Right after I bought these, I was offered the 968's at a very good price. If I can swing it, I may just hop over to those and sell my 938's for what I paid for them :D. A friend of mine has the 968's that sound great, which turned me on to Hyperion in the first place. That reminds me, I have to chase that offer down and see if they're still available...
Until then, I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for posting!!
-Phil
www.philpalombi.com
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Looks like you got good electronics and cabling. The biggest problematic issue is your speaker placement. Hyperions will not sound its best unless you find a way to get it out into the room at least 4 to 5 feet IMHO, preferably 6 feet, in a room your size. I would think you would get bass boom at certain frequencies and midrange muddiness with the speakers so close to the back wall. And the asymmetric placement from the side walls is not optimum for imaging. I would at least experiment with placing them farther into the room and symmetrically from the side walls -- even if this is not a practical location, I would try just to see if things improve. It would not hurt to get some absorption along the first and second reflection points and bass trap behind the listening position and absorption on the front wall between the speakers.
BTW, when you put your ear up against the driver, do you hear the glare from the tweeter or midrange? Both speakers or one?
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Maybe "glare" isn't the best word to describe what I'm hearing. I had a friend over the other day to check them out, and he described the midrange as "less warm than the Spendors", which are notorious for having a super warm midrange.
Soo, that has left me thinking about possibly switching to a 300b tube amp to warm up the mids. It's possible that my SS amp, though it's a really great amp, is just too analytical for the Hyperions.
I was able to move the left speaker out from the wall a little more, and I pulled both out from the back wall more, which seemed to help the soundstage a lot.
Oh, to answer your question, when I put my ear up to the speaker, it's only the midrange driver that has the characteristic that sticks out to me. Actually, maybe I should try connecting the speaker cables to the bass box first and jumping up to the mids and tweeter. If the bass was a touch louder, it may warm the mids up. I wonder if connecting to the bass first would have that affect...
My final experiment is going to be to lug my heavy integrated tube amp from downstairs and wire it up to the Hyperions! I'm curious to see how much that changes the tone.
Of course, I'm still trying to work out a deal on a pair of 968's, so maybe these will be going back out the door to make room :-)
Anyway, I'll post with the results!
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Okay, I've been doing a little experimenting, and I've concluded that the problem is DEFINITELY a result of the room- not the speakers.
I drug the Spendor's back upstairs and dropped them into the same exact position as the 938's for a direct comparison. The midrange was different- warmer at the expense of clarity. In terms of the "glare" I was hearing, I could still hear that wonky midrange characteristic, though it was reduced. The glare is there no matter what it seems, and since the 938s seem to resolve the midrange better, it's easier to hear the wonky midrange node in the room I guess.
What I liked most about the experiment was how much the 938's kicked the Spendor's butts in my upstairs system! The music was sooo much more clear, especially in the bass to lower-mid regions. Granted, the Spendors are only rated to 40hz or thereabouts, but the overall presentation was much better with the 938s. NOW I can hear what all the fuss is about!
I put the Hyperions back in place and draped a blanket on the left wall, which helped tame the mids a bit. I just ordered a few bass traps and a bunch of panels today from a place called Acoustimac. I'll report back next week with the results. They might just be the best tweak yet for these speakers :-)
-Phil
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Very nice, keep us posted! :wink:
Before you work out a deal for the 968 speakers i recommend a side by side audition with the 938. With the 938 you have a bit more sparkle from the tweeter, the little horn the tweeter is in contributes to this a big deal. The 968 should sound becausse of it's "normal" tweeter design a bit darker. That was my experience with other Hyperion speakers that doesn't us the horn loaded tweeter so i guess with the 968 it would be the same. But hey, if you like to tame this area a bit then the 968 could be for you. But do listen to the 968 before deciding, it would be a shame to get rid of the 938, only to find out you liked it more then the 968.
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IMO, many audiophiles spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on speakers, amps, preamps, source, and cables and fail to address the most critical part of their system...their ROOM. I have built a dedicated room from ground up and invested about $3k on room treatments (combination of absorption and diffusion)...by far the best investment I have made in my system. The second most important IME is placement of your speakers in the room.
Bassphil, you are going in the right direction :thumb:. As you can see and hear, simple experiments you have conducted with placement of your speakers shows the dramatic improvement you can make in the sound of your system. Some regard Hyperion midrange to be on the warm side. I disagree. It really depends on the amplification and source. I think you will find changing your SS amp to tube amp will change the sound for the better. This has been my experience many times over. However, you might find the bass to be on loose side with 300B amp, but again the bass may be significantly improved with room placement and bass traps.
Are you using the stock brass jumpers between the midrange and tweeter? If you are, get rid them!! It really degrades the sound. You can either buy jumpers made of the same wire as your speaker cables or biwire. The 938s were designed to be biwired or triwired, if you want to go balls out. Biwring will probably improve bass response, imaging/staging, tonality, and dynamics. Some people don't believe in biwiring, but you should try with relatively inexpensive speaker wire (Signal Cable is an affordable choice), if you can't afford to double up on your current wire.
Another option is biamping since you have both tube and SS amp. The tube should go to the midrange/tweeter and SS to the bass. Biamping is more tricky because you have to be able to get the gain of the amps to be the same. If you get lucky, you may get the best of tubes and solid state. OTOH, synergy may be an issue with this approach, and the sound may lack coherency.
Thanks for trying out the suggestions on this thread and reporting back. It's always nice to hear audiophile experience what the 938s can do.