Grande 8's shielded?

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nodiak

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Grande 8's shielded?
« on: 9 Apr 2005, 05:21 pm »
Do they use the 206 or 207? Thought 206 too low qts for vented, but maybe that's part of the mod done to the driver. Also heard the opinions that 206 has a cleaner sound. Opinions? Thanks, Don

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #1 on: 9 Apr 2005, 06:41 pm »
Mine aren't shielded. And they use the 206E drivers. Never heard the 207.
I haven't had any problems with sound quality and my drivers are unmodded. I can't wait to try the hemp drivers out.

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #2 on: 9 Apr 2005, 09:04 pm »
Hi GHM,

I thought I was under the impression that my
Grand 8R's use the Fostex 207E's...which are
a shielded version of the 206E's...and are said
to be a bit less detailed then 206E version.

However everything I have read suggests that the
206E version is not accommodated well by ported
cabinets...the so-called reflex cabinet design which
the Omega's use with these super fast single drivers...

Apparently the 206E was designed for a back horn
(built-in-horn) style cabinet in order to work optimally...

However the 207E seems to be comfortable in a reflex
cabinet due to its slightly different design...

That was my understanding...but what you have said about
your Grand 8's using the 206E now makes me wonder if
I have that right...

Perhaps Louie used both drivers in his cabinets at different
times in order to achieve different performance levels.

Do you have any further insights into this issue?

I always injoy your posts and I purchased my Grand 8's in
part based on your very favorable feedback...

Warm regards -Richard-

Dmason

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #3 on: 10 Apr 2005, 12:29 am »
The 207 is shielded and is part of the E-AV line. The 206 is not, has a much larger magnet, with a lower Qts, supposedly designed for a back-horn, but is widely used very successfully in the ported boxes and also Martin King's transmission line design. I am quite sure Louis is using the 206 in the Grande 8, it has a much stronger magnet/motor. I would imagine it sounds better.

He also mentioned the fact that the new hempsters have a near identical baffle cutout, making them a drop in replacement, and I am sure he wouldn't mind me sharing that he just put in his initial order for the 8" drivers, which made quite a scene in Montreal last weekend. Lighter cone by 33%, :idea:  cast alloy frame, novel motor structure, big chunky magnet, LOTS of excursion and all reports indicate these sport dynamic abilities of the audio gods, highs that sound like a tweeter is present, and the hemp cone is stiff and acoustically more opaque than the other papers, having longer, tougher fibres. I am betting these hemp cones are going to be tough to beat. 6Moons liked the set up so much they are on the books for a RedWine/Omega Hemp review... I would consider myself lucky to have the Grande 8 because something good is about to happen in terms of options and flavors.

 Hope this helps.

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #4 on: 10 Apr 2005, 01:08 am »
Thanks Richard for the kind words. Looks like Dmason has answered the question.Thanks D... I just walked in to check my mail. How are your Omega 8's doing Richard ? Have you tried the different towing methods yet ?

It's amazing what a little tow in can do for these speakers. Also the added subs really give an already vibrant sounding speaker . More colour and richness. It's like adding ying to the yang! :lol:

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #5 on: 10 Apr 2005, 04:33 am »
Hi Dan and GHM,

Thanks so much for your help and feedback...

So it looks like I have a 206E! Perhaps that explains
the incredible detail, lightening fast transients, the
delicacy of instrumental nuances, the voice sounding
like it has entered the room incorporeally during dream
time, the pulsing Bach Baroque rhythms that were never
there before, the layering of instruments with each one
distinct and vibrant that music lovers dream of but seldom
ever experience in the high end...this is not audio anymore...
it's music made real...

For years I have sat in audio stores and listened to
supposed high end speakers and amps with knock you
on the ground prices and disappointing results...yes...
here and there one gets a glimpse of what could be possible...
but it was like seeing one rose struggling to survive in an iron
garden of fakes...

This is the real thing...REAL...as in music come alive and fill
the room...fill your soul...quench your thirst for musical heaven...

I shall not venture to ask here why I need that so dearly...let me
merely suggest that there is something of the tribal experience
in music...something radiant...a petal from the energetic field
that supports all life...whatever it is I need it...and the Omega
Grand 8 R's are giving it to me...along with my newly tubed
integrated pentoid amplifier with 6 watts of ambrosia (to borrow
from the inimitable prose of the good doctor Dan)...

When I last spoke to Louie he indicated that the optimal design
for the new hemp drivers had a wide baffle front to accommodate
the lower frequency needs of the drivers...however if what you say
is true Dan...that I can actually drop the new 8" drivers into this
cabinet...and it will play within the parameters it was designed for...
I will be a very very very happy fellow indeed...

I wonder if the new basket that Louie thought he might use in the
actual production unit of the hemp driver will be a good fit without
changing the opening? Louie thought he might like to work with an
multi-angled design or something like that...

For anyone interested in how I came to Omega speakers and
Fostex drivers I would like to say it was the good doctor Dan
who opened my eyes to the magic and wonders of single
full range drivers and the Fostex 206E drivers in particular...
and I am deeply grateful to you doc for lifting me out of the
dead end world of highly priced highly hyped "high end"
audio and placing me firmly on the "ground" where the magic
really lies and helping me to keep some money for more
important things...like the music! Your the man!

The music making ability of a good full range single driver
in well made cabinets like Louie is offering cannot be
understood by merely reading about it...it must be heard.

My cabinet is made from American Gum Figure...to say it
is beautiful does not do it justice...recently I had a friend visit
me in Ojai who is a master cabinet maker...he couldn't keep
his hands off it...finally he looked me straight in the eye and
said "these are really really beautiful..." and he meant it.

The Fostex drivers which at first look like eyes begin to look
more like fleshy human appendages...something more like
the human ear for example...and the music even has a fleshy
feeling to it...very human...very right...very real...very present...

Bravo Louis for your wonderful work...Bravo GHM for your
unceasing praise which influenced my purchase...Bravo
doctor Dan for your insights and impeccable research which
benefits all of us.

Warm regards -Richard-

Dmason

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #6 on: 10 Apr 2005, 05:21 am »
Richard,

Sounds like the rubber is hitting the road now, with the drivers. Sounds like it is really working for you.

"If it ain't Baroque, fix it."

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #7 on: 10 Apr 2005, 07:59 am »
If your right Dan...that these Fostex speakers only
get better with age...than I am in for a continually
unfolding revelatory musical life...

You once said...

""Our appreciation of good music will only increase with age."

Sounds like the drivers and the musical life within us
will grow nicely together...a nice synergy and symmetry...
like a counterpoint in a developing fugue...

Warm regards -Richard-

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #8 on: 10 Apr 2005, 11:25 am »
Richard you sure have a way with words my friend! :o
6moons or one of these audio magazines should invite you in to do reviews. I can only imagine how your reviews will read..since your web postings are written like novels WoW! :D

I know who I'll be asking to write my Hallmark cards for Christmas! :lol:

portlandlay

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If you look at the products section you will see for the-
« Reply #9 on: 10 Apr 2005, 01:18 pm »
"Driver : Full range 8” paper dual cone Fostex with rubber impregnated surround, alloy chassis and  fully shielded"

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #10 on: 10 Apr 2005, 05:31 pm »
Hi GHM,

Tow-in...Yes...I have just begun to experiment with
it...I originally purchased 20 inch stands from our
Canadian neighbor Noel Nolan of Skylan Stands...
a lovely fellow who shares a wealth of insights with
you on the phone...

When I placed the Omega 8's on the stands they
looked as if they might be too high for the low ceiling
space I now live in...aesthetics mind you not physics...

However as everyone knows who has this wonderful
speaker the early phases of its life sounds quite bizarre...
with Vinnie's amp they sounded like electrostatic speakers
without the lower frequencies present...slowly...and I mean
slowly...the lower frequencies began to fill in...a painful
experience for me because my normally tempered quotient
of patience seemed to evaporate in the presence of my high
expectations and excitement to hear what everyone was raving
about...

I took the 8's off the stands and placed them on bricks less than a
foot off the ground and brought them closer to the back wall for
bass reinforcement...and that seemed more tolerable for a time...

One day the lower frequencies on the CD I was playing suddenly
appeared within the musical stream and I knew something important
had changed...I took the 8's off of the bricks and placed them back
onto the stands and the lower frequencies became stronger and
more fully fleshed out...

Now I have the 8's on their sides and I am considering cutting the legs
of the stands to less than half their height...perhaps to 9 inches...the 8's
sound marvelous and the lower midrange down sounds fully present
and create a nice foundation under the music. I am aware on some music
that the lowest octave is only really hinted at. But the stringed bass on jazz
pieces for example are beautifully rendered with all the snap and vibration
you could ask for and cello is sublime. The fundamentals of the large
classical organ are startling and powerful...Bach would like the way
his music sounds on the 8's!

So I have them towed right now so that the drivers would meet just
behind my head and the sound field is very convincing...

How do you tow in your 8's GHM? And how high are they
in your space?

Portlandlay- thanks for the update on the Fostex
drivers used in the Grand 8's...hummmm seems
like this question needs a more definitive answer...

Warm regards -Richard-

DARTH AUDIO

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #11 on: 10 Apr 2005, 05:39 pm »
Richard, check out these stands. Looks like what you are looking for.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/gilbraltars.php

maxwalrath

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #12 on: 10 Apr 2005, 05:51 pm »
Those are beauties...Louis used them at a show recently, I remember the photos from his site.

I wonder how much Timbernation would charge for a similar product?

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #13 on: 10 Apr 2005, 07:14 pm »
Hi Richard..actually I go against principles sometimes. :lol:
I have my 8's on 24 inch stands..I guess this comes from living with 72 inch tall maggies. I like the sound to emanate a little higher off the floor.
right now I have mine towed in to point directly at my face. I can just barely see the outside of the cabinets from my sitting position. This means they cross right in front of my face.The speakers are roughly 18 or 20 inches off the back wall. They are 9 to 10 feet from my head and 7 feet apart.

I have had them severely towed in..with the speakers crossing infront of me by a few feet. This will make them sound more laid back and tighten up the images in the soundstage. It will surprise you because most speakers soundstage collapses when towed in this far. These won't collapse. Must have something to do with the whizzer cones wide dispersion. Try it! You may like it. I had mine set up the same as yours but after this little discovery I just left them crossing in front of me.

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #14 on: 10 Apr 2005, 08:48 pm »
Hi Darth Audio,

I have to admit that they look very substantial...
not unlike the hewn from solid wood bases Brancusi
used to support his marvelous sculptures.

I do not think those brass accents will pass Deborah's
aesthetic sensibilities however...a bit Baroque for her
taste...still an interesting solution for a stand with tilted
cabinets...efficient and self-contained...

Hi GHM , speaking of tilting, have you ever tried tilting
your 8's? Noel of Skylan stands mentioned that tilting
the 8's should reinforce the lower frequencies to some
extent...I tried it but it was too early in the "breaking-in"
period to get a good grip on its effectiveness...

I just measured the distance to the back wall of my 8's
and they match your measurements very closely...
somewhere between 18 and 19 inches...they are 7feet and
a couple of inches apart (measured from the center of the
cone)...and 26 inches from the floor (again measured from
the center of the cone)...

I took down a wall system in this older doublewide mobile
home I am now living in (yes...it took some time to get used
to this "style" of living...strange really...but this particular park
in Ojai, California in filled with classical composers, writers,
artists, health specialists and all sorts of interesting people
who like Deb and myself are looking for alternatives to paying
high rents for small spaces...forget buying a home here...unless
you have a few million sitting around with nothing to do) and that
has opened up the space like a New York loft...so my sitting area
varies a bit according to my mood...no couches...just comfortable
light weight chairs...I move too much for a life of heavy furniture
and Deb prefers it that way...however I usually sit about 7 to 8 feet
away...

Oh yes...you are a former Maggie owner...I think the 1.6qr's(?)...
which is the exact speaker I had before the Omega 8's...which
I find interesting...of course one does not get that sense of the
music originating from the very air of the room which the Maggies
do so well...the voices hanging in space...I had a cousin once visit
me...I was playing the Maggies next to my Ruark Crusader 2
floor standers...she refused to believe that the Maggies were playing...
she walked up to the Ruarks and placed her ear to the speakers more
than once...so good are the Maggies at throwing the sound away from
them...

But having said that I prefer the Omega 8's in every other way...
for me they have a "fleshy" musical presence...warm, effusive,
immediate, rich, full of color and texture in a way the Maggie's
could not touch with their "cooler" less "personal" demeanor...
the Omega 8 is all about intimacy...they pull me into the music
as I have never experienced before...something that once experienced
is impossible to ever give up...unless another speaker can match
that kind of involvement...and I love the cohesive-all-of-a-piece
wholeness of the musical landscape...

Thanks for your all-too-kind words before GHM...I wish I could
live up to them...

Warm regards -Richard-

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #15 on: 10 Apr 2005, 09:27 pm »
Richard,
As far as I'm concerned you have already lived up to them my friend.
Maybe I will try this tilt technic out..The last reveiw Srajan did on the Cain &Cain Abbys touched on something I have discovered. When subwoofers are brought into the equation..placement becomes less of an issue with single driver speakers.

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #16 on: 11 Apr 2005, 03:19 am »
Hi GHM,

I have been following your thoughts on subwoofers
very carefully...I am quite satisfied after reading
your insights that my Omega 8's could only
benefit from the addition of subwoofers forming
a solid foundation under the music...

I looked at the web site of your Adire Rava
Subwoofers and was pleasantly surprised
at the modest cost...under $500 each seems
most reasonable...perhaps now that they will
no longer be selling direct their prices will reflect
the mark up of the dealers that they have hooked
up with...

Can you dial in the amplification gain at the speaker
to get a really good match with your Omega 8’s?

I notice you mentioned that a Y connection could be
used if ones preamp or integrated amp did not have a
second set of speaker cable outlets...which is my situation
with the Wright Audio (no connection to Wright Sound)...
and I was particularly fascinated with your insight that
each sub performs more efficiently if it has only
one channel to deal with...very interesting...

Thanks for all that feedback about subs GHM...
I am beginning to save as of now for a pair...
although Deb thinks the lower frequencies sound
very convincing to her and is more than satisfied
with the 8’s as they are...I think however if she hears
them with well integrated subs she will notice a richer
dimension to the music...

Warm regards -Richard-

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #17 on: 11 Apr 2005, 04:52 am »
Richard..you and Deb are in for a serious surprise. :o
You most certainly can tune them in from the subwoofers plates.
When I got the first one ..I thought  wow this really sounds good. I got this advice from a friend who recommended I try two in stereo to get even a fuller sound. He was right!

I could hardly believe what I was hearing. Much better speed and definition with the addition of a second sub. There was a distortion lifted that I didn't realize was there. Once you spend some time tuning them in. You will find it very difficult to locate the subs in your room with music playing. Right now I think I have my subwoofers set  to start around 60 hz down. It will sound like you have fullrange active floorstanders in the house.

Since the Omegas are basically direct drive speakers when connected to an amplifier. Remeber no crossovers...you get the dynamics and speed of an active speaker. Pair this with two 12 inch woofers in their own sealed cabinets with amplifiers, now you have a full range direct drive speaker system. I can tell you after spending some time with a friends B&W 802s...the Omega/ dual stereo sub combo is one dynamic Mofo! :D
The big B&Ws cannot go there! :mrgreen:

Adires subwoofers are very reasonable compared to buying from a B&M company. You seem to have the common sense to understand this. Some of these Katz kill me. They automatically assume since the subs cost 399.00  their no better than circuit city's or best buy's subwooofer collection. What a big mistake!

It kinda pisses me off! Since I've owned at least 6 subs and know what a sub needs to do for music. And also what it doesn't.
At any rate I let it be their loss..just like the ClariT. This way of thinking makes me wonder sometimes, if audiophiles open their minds instead of their wallets.Some would be a whole lot happier with their present gear.

-Richard-

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Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #18 on: 12 Apr 2005, 03:26 am »
Hi GHM,

If you have the patience and the time I wonder
if you could go more deeply into your experiences
with the 6 subwoofers you used previously to using
the Adire Rava Subwoofers...I realize that your previous
subwoofers were probably being used with different
speakers than the Omega 8's...which would make any
comparison difficult and tricky...however any further insights
you have would be deeply appreciated...the entire world of
subwoofers is frankly a mystery to me...I never had occasion
to use them...and one hears some of the most conflicting
feedback about them and their effectiveness...although I
have no doubt that your Adire Rava Subwoofers and your
Omega 8's create pure magic together...

Warm regards -Richard-

GHM

Grande 8's shielded?
« Reply #19 on: 12 Apr 2005, 02:28 pm »
Certainly Richard it would be my pleasure.

This is going to be long. :lol:

Well...when I first started messing around with this stuff. It was more about home theater than two channel.
So I've had the garden variety of subwoofers. The first being a 15 inch Cerwin Vega passive in a huge ported enclosure! This thing stood 3 feet high and 3 feet deep. What a monster! I would get complaints from neighbors across the hall and one floor up. They said I was knocking their pictures of the wall ! Oh what fun! :o
This was during my apartment dwelling days.

From there I believe it was the DCM SW 250..this is a dual 12 inch monster. The bass could actualy give me a headache! One thing I discoverd about dual enclosured subs and subs that used a passive radiator. They all have a slow roll off.At least the ones I've heard. The bass just drags along. These aren't the subs for an 2 channel audiophile.
This is how the True Sunfire subs are .They will shake your brain stem loose but have no further use too me. The Paradigm Sizmeic is the same way..unearthing bass but slow. Also the Deftec super cubes fall in with this group. All of these are made to be unobtrusive in size but lack finesse.

I've had the circuit city and best buy brands..like JBL(absolute crapola),Kenwood with a servo(not bad), Infinity and Velodyne Mass market versions(50 hz bass hump kings) all were ported designs. None were designed to give you an quick accurate bass. More bloated with a 50 hz bass hump. Most consumers don't know any better. They love that 50 hz hump. The average consumer also doesn't realize, your not supposed to be able to locate a sub in the room with your hearing.
If you can localize it ,it needs to be adjusted or tossed! :lol:

On to one of my favorite HT subs. The SVS CS plus 16-46 tube with the 12 inch Aluminum driver. this thing looks like a water heater seating in the corner. I have measured this sub down to 13 hz!  For a ported design the bass was extremely fast and heart stopping.
I tried different professional amplifiers on it like the Mackie and Peavey. I settled on the Peavey 900 watts into 4 ohms. The amplifier was installed in a closest in the hall way. I had the the wires running through a wall and then over to the sub. This is when I had my Mcintosh/Meridian front end with Deftec speakers all around for HT.
I had a buddy come over to watch Saving Private Ryan. By the end of this movie ..him and I both could hardly walk. :lol:
These subs when paired with the right amplifier. Have that kind of bass that feels like somones punching you in the stomach! :o

On to the ULD Velodyne 15. This sub has a servo and comes with an amplifier. It is a sealed design. We're talking subiterrean tight clean bass with this baby! The sealed design allows the bass to roll off fast in your room. I don't think I could use one for music though. It's can be over whelming. It also doesn't have that mid bass snap. These subs seem more designed for HT as well. They might be a good foundation with an already fullrange multi driver speaker though.


The deftech TL 15 incher is basically the same as the ULD 15 too my ears.
Floor rattling bass not really intended for music. It does have a fairly fast roll off since it is sealed.The Paradigm Reference 15 incher falls right in with Deftecs and Velodynes. It's more of a movie sub built for impact(I have a friend that's a dealer so I get to play with some of this stuff). I've also done some professional installations with another good friend.

I like the snap of the 12 inch drivers. For a single driver speaker I wouldn't go any larger than a 12 inch sealed sub. Depending on the room size a 10 incher would be even better IMHO. Probably the best way to adjust and integrate two subs into your system... is to use a SPL meter. Play solid tones with just your main speakers on. Find a reference..let's say 70 db. Disconnect your speakers. Turn only one subwoofer on. Play the same white noise tones. Try to get it as close to 70 db with the volume adjustment on the subwoofer. Do the other subwoofer the same way.
Now plug everything back up except leave one sub off.Have someone to adjust the crossovers slowly while you listen to familar music. Do this with each subwoofer. When your done every thing should be seamless.

Stay away from ported subwoofers for music. They will only cost you frustration!

I've been playing with some placements. I took my Omega 8's off their stands and placed them on my subs. Now they are 9 feet apart and nearly 10 feet from me. I have them towed in to cross infront of my face.
The drivers centers are exactly 36 inches off the floor. It sounds damn good!
My sound stage is only shorter when I stand up in front of them. Other than that ..it's like having 40 inch tall fullrange floorstanders in the room.