[077 tweeter]

Has any one used the dayton ps220-8 on a ob full range?

[-Richard-]

Hi 077 tweeter ~

I wrote a "review"/feedback-post of these speakers... I am currently using a pair in my OB's that replaced a pair of Visaton B200's. Quick recapitulation: Pros: much more detail, higher frequency extension, no "smearing" and more "alive" than the B200's, cheaper than the B200's, fast and articulate, nice instrumental textures, nice voice reproduction. Cons: steep rise somewhere in the upper frequencies (around 4000Khz?) that could sound "hot" with non-compatible SS amplifiers depending on your other gear. My re-designed tube EL 84 Heathkit integrated (hooked up in Triode mode for 7 watts) is nicely compatible with the Dayton's.

Why I bought them: cheap, look fantastic, build based on expensive British Single Speaker designs (wide-range), some interesting "feedback" from early purchasers (although mixed feedback, some liking what they sound like, while others definitely not liking them).

So in the face of mixed feedback why did I purchase them? A "feeling" that they can produce magic. And they do. Highly recommended for experimenters that want to begin exploring the Open Baffle paradigm on the cheap. I still use a 15" speaker crossed over at 350Hz for bass duty on my 2-way OB's. I let the Dayton's run full-range.

I have very limited experience "comparing" 8" wide-range drivers, so I do not know where the Dayton's stand compared to other 8" wide-range drivers for OB use. Deborah (as far from an audiophile as one can imagine) loves the sound of our OB's with the Dayton's. Indeed, there are times when the music plays so completely "alive" and "present" in our room that it is impossible to imagine that any other speaker (no matter what the price) could sound more convincing. These speakers could be the best buy for OB's... but I will have to await the feedback from other DIY OB designers to see if our impressions are reasonably accurate.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[jonirvine]

I was considering this driver for my current OB build but decided to bite the bullet and go with Tang Band's 1808's because of their incredible reviews.  Check out Steve Deckert's ("the Zen Baffle") testing of both of these drivers and his ultimate choice in using the Dayton driver (he modified it though):

http://www.decware.com/newsite/paper95B.html

His experience with this driver may either encourage/discourage some people, knowing that he heavily modified it to do what he wanted.  For me, I decided to stay away from the Dayton 220 because I was afraid of the "hotness" of it's higher frequencies.  But for the money and what's out there, it seems like a great driver so I  can seeign it going both ways.

[Gothover]

I considered using that driver as well, it looks well built, and I have had good luck with Dayton products in the past.

Dave

[-Richard-]

Hi jonirvine ~

Thanks for the link to Steve Deckert's article explaining how he came to modify the Dayton Neo driver so it would meet the performance he feels expresses the sound he was looking for in his open baffle design. I had read that carefully when he first published it but I had forgotten the details.

It is a fact that many highly regarded single drivers that are rather expensive need a great deal of time to "break in"... the paper cones have to relax so that the musical signals passing through them are not met with a stiff "resistance" that seems to work against the nuances of the subtle musical textures and tonal shadings.

I have been playing the Dayton's for quite some time now... perhaps over a year (I lost my sense of time while living and teaching in India). In the last few days something extraordinary is happening. Deborah and I are falling in love with musical performances that in the past we found difficult to listen to. The shift is so pronounced that both of us have been startled by the sheer beauty of what we are hearing. The insight popped into my mind in the last few days that the Dayton's are finely beginning to "relax"... in this way they are reacting like some of the stiff expensive wide range single-drivers known for this kind of transformation.

Steve Deckert: "When they arrived the first thing I did was put one of them in the ZOB cabinet on the right side of the room and leave the original DFR8S in the cabinet on the left to make some comparisons.  After throwing a packing blanket over the speaker for a 24 hour work out I came in the next evening to hear what it could do... It took me hours to realize the reason the driver sounded 10dB louder than my DFR8S was because the top end was that peaked.  It sounded like someone put about ten tweeters on the speaker and cranked them up so loud it begain to encourage male hair loss."

That was an observation after only playing the Dayton's for one night. The Dayton cones are very stiff... apparently they need a great deal of "play" so they can begin to relax. That is what is happening now in my own Open Baffles and I think it can account for the exceptional beauty of the tone and textures we are hearing. Nothing else has changed in our set-up.

Please keep in mind that I have not played my system consistently for the past year. Changes in my schedule have reduced the actual listening time I give to music. I think it is reasonable to assume that if I played music everyday for several hours... at high spl's... this "breaking in" process would have taken much less time.

The question then arises... why wait... why not modify the Dayton speakers... or any speakers that are especially stiff... the way Steve did so that you don't have to wait months... or even a year or more for them to break-in? I think the answer lies in the trade off of "adding" things to the simple functioning of a driver... every form of "modification" is a trade off... and that is especially true for using capacitors, inductors and other complications in some cross-over scheme.

I am not raining on anyone's parade here... if cross-overs can help 2 or more drivers to blend together nicely that is wonderful (I use a simple coiled iron inductor on my 15" bass driver)... however I did quite a bit of experimentation using low watt Single Ended Triode amplifiers on single-driver Open Baffle designs and it was obvious to Deborah and I that the simpler the set-up was the "sweeter", more transparent, effortless and relaxed the sound was. More importantly, there is a level of musical information that gets lost when things get complicated... a level of textural "presence" that equates to "space" and a subtle sense of the "real" that usually only a live un-amplified instrumental or voice performance gets across. I am studying classical guitar and my "ear" has become even more sensitive to that "presence" which adds a dimension to recorded music that brings it alive. This has nothing to do with "measurements"... measurements can point to certain "conditions" but it is not music... music lives in another dimension and has a life of its own.

I am not building a case for the Dayton's here. So far they are working beautifully in my OB set-up... that is all. I am certain another driver could better it... perhaps a field-coil like the Supravox's... they are "faster" and more detailed then a fixed-magnet driver.

But so what? What will the "more" do for our musical experiences? More of this and more of that... more detail for example. Each "magnification" (the more) of some aspect of the musical information presents new problems that must be addressed in one's set-up... each "change" creates new problems that must be compensated for.

I am always open to new drivers and new amplifiers that can "release" music's magical dimension into one's life. The Dayton's are getting us close to what wide-range drivers do so well... and they are "fast", detailed and allow for a rich musical experience... and they are cheap. Once they begin to break-in the upper frequency anomalies begin to smooth out.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[Poultrygeist]

Richard,

You have a way with words and I always enjoy your posts. Please post more often as you did in the Dark Star days.

I enjoy my Tang Band W8-1808's immensely which I bought before their huge price increase. I am however motivated to try the Daytons the next time they go on sale. I've found it's not so hard to hide 8" drivers from my wife who doesn't enable my addiction.

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Richard

Could you post a link to details of OB speakers you used that were compatible with SET amps ?
That's what i'm using (SET with OB) and interested in finding more out about.
I too am finding i hear more detail/nuance in the midrange if i limit the higher frequencies/bandwidth
It sounds a little "cardboardy" at first but i find it more satisfying/interesting to listen to in the long term

Thanks, Richard

[-Richard-]

Hi Poultrygeist ~ thanks for your very kind words. I am using a 1950's Heathkit integrated with the circuit re-designed by Sam Kim... although it appears to still have the original "traditional" tone controls... according to Sam the tone controls do not actually "add" any gain of "tone" to the signal... they start out being fully "open" (no gain, just the full unaltered signal) at the 12 o'clock position and then one sub-tracts the tone as needed (by turning the knob counter-clockwise). That allows me to fine-tune the signal so that the upper-frequency anomalies of the Dayton's are not a issue. It is a quick well-designed EQ. I think that if the Dayton's are to be experimented with some form of EQ is highly recommended. But then again... almost every OB design (not to mention most boxed speakers) need some form of EQ.

Too bad amplifier designers became so lazy. Of course it is our fault for not demanding tone controls on the amplifiers that we purchase. What we need is a new generation of amplifiers designers not afraid to tackle the challenges of designing tone controls back into amplifiers. It is like trying to take effective photographs without having an option for manually choosing the ISO or shutter speed... todays amplifiers are no more than the equivalent of point-and-shoot cameras set to "automatic"... fine if your camera "sees" things the way you want your photograph to look... but a real problem if what you want to "capture" you cannot, due to the cameras limited automatic pre-set controls. That is one reason so many audio/music enthusiasts spend so much money on boutique speaker cables... they act as "tone controls"... to some extent they help to make up for the missing tone controls in their amplifiers. That is also why EQ has become so important.

A purist approach... to letting the signal through the amplifier unmodified by tone controls... simply means that the work of modification is put off until it reaches further up the appliance chain... which is usually the speakers... where it is much harder to control.

I am certain your Tang Band W8-1808's are fantastic!!!! I would love to try them myself one day.

Hi richardcooper ~ I am not entirely certain what you mean by "post a link to details of OB speakers you used that were compatible with SET amps"... here is a photo my my OB's:




This is an earlier version using the B200's. I will write a more detailed post of my set up very soon. I am being called to take care of a few things.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Richard
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) you had posted about your experiences combining SET amps and open baffles elsewhere.
Most of the threads on here are about speakers which are not sensitive enough to use with SET amplifiers.(which is fair enough as most people use more powerful amplifiers)
I use SET amplifiers and like OBs so am interested in anything people have done that combines the two

[Poultrygeist]

richardcooper2k

I drive these Tang Band OB with a 2a3 SET of 3.5 watts while the Alpha H-frames are powered by ss Dayton mono-blocks with built in XO controls.

[richardcooper2k]

Looks great.
I'd love to hear how an active biamped system like that compares to my passive crossovered one amp per channel setup.

[-Richard-]

Hi richardcooper ~ Yes... I understand now what you are interested in. Perhaps you actually have a much better sense of this than I do... but I will share what I have gleamed from my experience using SET's with my own Open Baffle experiments. First a very quick overview.

One can find quite a bit of writing that equates high sensitivity drivers, which are extremely efficient, as having an optimal synergy with SET amplification. The two most talked about paradigms for the highest sensitivity drivers are Field Coil drivers and horn-style drivers. Both of these drivers can operate near 100db sensitivity or even over it. The Supravox field-coil drivers are around 96-98db sensitivity for example... depending on the chosen variable DC voltage range (fixed-magnets are generally less powerful). Any well-executed SET amplifier can drive them to very high Sound Pressure Levels (loudness).

Of course you don't need field-coil drivers... both the Dayton Neo's (94.5db) and Visaton B200's (96db) are in a desirable efficiency range... for example, the Dayton is an 8 ohm load and the B200 is a 6 ohm load... both do not drop too much lower than their ohm rating during their usual performance range... and so they both are SET friendly... at least up to a point. Poultrygeist's Tang Band W8-1808 neodymium 8" drivers are 93db efficient yet he drives them to satisfying levels with his 3 watt 2A3 SET amplifier!!

Using SET amplifiers are easy with OB's as long as your drivers are sensitive enough.

Using a 2 driver design for one's OB panel's has become an excellent "standard" working design... although many DIY OB designers on this forum prefer more bass and opt for 2 larger bass drivers to give more support and energy to the lower bass region. So that if the 8-inch wide-range 94db or higher 8" driver handles the frequencies from 50 or 60 Hz to its upper frequency limit... we can easily make up for the loss (cancellation) in the lower frequency range and push the lower frequencies even lower thanks to the woofer's larger size.

The question here of course is, can a 2 or 3 watt amplifier drive both the 8" wide-range driver and the 15" woofer?

I am currently using a 7 watt integrated amplifier hooked up in Triode configuration. It is not, strictly speaking, an SET amplfier... it is a push-pull circuit. So it has more "drive" than an SET amplifier. Although it most probably sounds less "sweet" and refined (resolving) in the upper frequencies than Poultrygeist's, lovely looking 2A3 amplifiers... such are the trade-offs of amplifier design. However, I can drive both the 8" wide-range driver and the 15" woofer using this 7-watt EL 84 Triode amplifier with plenty of "head-room" to spare... even with the more challenging 4 ohm load that results from hooking both drivers up in parallel (The Dayton neo 8" driver and Eminence Alpha 15" driver both are 8 ohm loads, the load is halved when they are hooked up together in parallel, which is a challenge to some amplifiers).

Here is where many of our OB forum community of DIY designers use dedicated amplifiers for their woofers... relieving the amplifier chosen to drive the 8" wide-range driver to be much less stressed. The advantages are many... for one thing many simple sub-woofer style "plate-amplifiers" have built-in cross-over points, so an inductor cross-over (like the one I use) is not necessary. Also these amps are generally not expensive... they use stable SS circuits and can even attach to the back of the OB panel. Or an inexpensive push-pull tube amp could serve the same purpose, but if it does not have a built-in cross-over cut-off function then a cross-over on the larger woofer will be needed.

I had several 45 tube SET amplifiers and one 2A3 SET amplifier driving my original combination of Eminence 15" woofer and 8" B200 drivers and I was not entirely satisfied with the results. I felt I needed more than 2 or 3 watts to drive them to sound levels that brought out the best in the music that Deborah and I like to listen to. They sounded incredibly refined and transparent, but did not have the dynamic drive that a good deal of our music demands. This is an entirely subjective area, of course... and if I were to change one component or another... than perhaps everything else might change accordingly... so these observations are merely a transitory experience that if revisited might be seen in an entirely different light. After all... our sense of "rightness"... indeed our sense of "beauty" is constantly changing.

Hi Poultrygeist ~ I am in love with your Tang Band W8-1808 neodymium 8" drivers... they are so c-o-o-l looking!!! The feedback is incredible on Parts Express. Even the suggestion that one reviewer had of wishing for more "sparkle" on top could work for me... it might be a perfect synergy with my Heathkit. If the sensitivity was higher I would have ordered a pair today... at 93 db sensitivity I need to think about it a little bit... since I would love to go back to using an SET amplifier again... although there seems to be a number of new 300B SET designs that would work very nicely with the Tang Band's.

Your OB's look wonderful... I am certain they sound incredible!!! Thanks for the wonderful photos.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[Poultrygeist]

I added these rear firing super horn tweeters to add some sparkle to the top end. They are old Radio Shack tweets with different value caps and pod dampening. They are said to be made by Fostex. Love the shimmer they add to cymbals. I also dampened the rear baffle with cork place mats from Ikea.

Richard, with my 2a3 SET driving the TB's anything beyond 12 o'clock is too loud. I wish I could have recessed my drivers like you did.

[-Richard-]

Hi Poultrygeist ~

Your Open Baffles are amazingly elegant and very easy to look at... they have a simplicity that promotes confidence in their musical skills. I would love to hear them... especially with your lovely 2A3 SET's rendering the musical signal.

Having once heard a well-executed low power SET amplifier playing music through the Open Baffle paradigm... there is no going back. Deborah who has no particular interest in the "technology" of music reproduction can hear the compression of the music that takes place in every "box" speaker we have heard sense we began to listen at home to our own Open Baffle speakers.

The SET experience should be heard by everyone interested in Open Baffle speakers at least once in their life... it is really a revelation... the textures, rich harmonic tonal shadings, sense of space, and "realism" they bring to instruments and voice is quite extraordinary.

Your tweeters, with their stand-alone design, look like they should be very effective. Besides "sparkle" a well-designed tweeter can add a sense of "space" which is very nice. You seem to have "dialed" in your tweeters cross-overs so that they blend perfectly with your other 2 drivers.

I like your recessed woofer... it looks like it can take advantage of low-frequency reinforcement from the back as well as the front of the open box it is recessed within... the box acting like a wave-guide... it must add quite a bit of deep bass to your over-all sound.

I wonder, Poultrygeist, if you ever tried working with a flat panel before settling on your current design? If you did, what is the most characteristic differences between the sound you are now getting with your recessed woofer halfway "inside" the box and when it was on a front panel?

This should be an excellent design for my next Open Baffle experiments.

Thanks for the further photos of the back of your baffles with the tweeters on top.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[Poultrygeist]

Richard,

I built these inexpensive flat panel OB's using the 8 inch Wild Burro Audio Betsy's and Alphas. I use them in my garage as I spend lots of time out there plus there's no more room for speakers in my house.

I drive the Betsy flat panels with a Miniwatt SET. They are not quite as smooth or refined as the TB's but still very enjoyable and for the price of $100 a pair they are hard to beat.

The H-frames give more defined bass with the same woofer and their solid construction means less resonance. The TB's upside down T baffle rests atop the H-frames on nylon feet so there is not as much resonance transmission from one driver to the other as in a shared baffle.

I run the Betsy's without correction and use a 80Hz low pass filter on the Alphas which I drive with a garage sale Denon AV receiver. The Denon accepts the digital signal from a CD player while the Miniwatt receives it's analog signal. The shelf is for the free standing pod tweeter.

The flat panel Betsy's would be a good choice for anyone on a tight budget. Both OBs are near clones of MJK's designs.

[mcgsxr]

I ran biamped b200 Visaton's on OB for 6 years using a Magnavox SEP EL84 amp.  The Maggie drove the b200's and a plate amp drove my subs.

Great sound on a budget for sure!