AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Vinnie Rossi => Topic started by: zybar on 24 May 2016, 02:50 pm
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Are you sticking with the stock 2A3 tubes?
If not, what type and brand are you thinking of using?
Based on what I heard in my system last night, I really liked the SV 811's that Vinnie used at Axpona.
Will need to do some more research on other options.
George
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I'm used to the 2A3 sound, and I have a pair of Shuggie Treasures that I'm going to try. I was waiting for Vinnie to post some reviews, but I've also thought about the 811s. I'm also considering 45 mesh plates, since (at least as output tubes) they tend to be more linear than the 2A3s (which are in turn more linear than 300Bs.)
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Can someone post a link to a reputable seller who sells SV811's Vinnie used at Axpona?
Thanks,
Oleg
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Does the SV mean that they were Svetlana tubes?
Steve
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Are these what Vinnie is using?
http://www.parts-express.com/svetlana-sv811-10-vacuum-tube-quartet-platinum-matched--072-519?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla
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Are these what Vinnie is using?
http://www.parts-express.com/svetlana-sv811-10-vacuum-tube-quartet-platinum-matched--072-519?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla
Yup.
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Yup.
Very confusing, is it price per tube or for 4 tubes?
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Very confusing, is it price per tube or for 4 tubes?
It's for a quartet-4 tubes
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Hi jtwrace,
Yes - those are the tubes (SV811-10).
I picked up a small stash of them (directly from Svetlana's remaining factory stash, which is getting very low now and probably will be gone soon :o) and will need to get around to testing them, matching them, etc.
The included Electro Harmonics 2A3 "gold grid" tubes are super linear, super quiet and deliver a very wide bandwidth out to around 500kHz in the LIO DHT PRE circuit. And they are new production, so I decided that these would be the "stock" tubes and bought a bunch of matched pairs to include with DHT PRE.
When I get time, I will be posting about the various tubes that I have tried with LIO DHT PRE so far. I think there are a least 10 different ones so far, and I am getting more (new production, and NOS) soon.
Vinnie
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Here is a site you can buy one at a time.
http://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/svetlana-sv811-10/
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Here is a site you can buy one at a time.
http://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/svetlana-sv811-10/
I'll be selling a few pair of those as well, but not until I test each one and match them. My guess is that I'll be
selling for approx. $250 for the tested / matched pair.
In the meantime, you probably can get better pricing online (but I've done this and found some companies have a different
"definition" of what a matched pair or matched quad is. :? I like to see them within 0.5dB or better from each other. And some were too noisy). So part of what I have to do is reject the ones that are not up to snuff, so rejecting tubes also brings up the cost because
I can't sell out-of-spec tubes). And in the linestage like DHT PRE, you need the best you can get because it is super sensitive to
sub par tubes! :nono:
- Vinnie
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I'll be selling a few pair of those as well, but not until I test each one and match them. My guess is that I'll be
selling for approx. $250 for the tested / matched pair.
In the meantime, you probably can get better pricing online (but I've done this and found some companies have a different
"definition" of what a matched pair or matched quad is. :? I like to see them within 0.5dB or better from each other. And some were too noisy). So part of what I have to do is reject the ones that are not up to snuff, so rejecting tubes also brings up the cost because
I can't sell out-of-spec tubes). And in the linestage like DHT PRE, you need the best you can get because it is super sensitive to
sub par tubes! :nono:
- Vinnie
Good to know. Perhaps you can offer tubes to your DHT owners. :green:
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When I get time, I will be posting about the various tubes that I have tried with LIO DHT PRE so far. I think there are a least 10 different ones so far, and I am getting more (new production, and NOS) soon.
Vinnie
I look forward to this as I'm already looking and hate to tube roll. Just tell me what to buy! :lol:
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I look forward to this as I'm already looking and hate to tube roll. Just tell me what to buy! :lol:
:scratch:
No mo Ncos?
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I look forward to this as I'm already looking and hate to tube roll. Just tell me what to buy! :lol:
Start out with the stock 2A3 Gold Grid. It's very quiet, very linear, awesome bandwidth, and a great starting point.
It also helps that they are in production and easy enough to obtain:
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/2A3-Tube-Types/Electro-Harmonix-2A3-EH-Gold-Grid (http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/2A3-Tube-Types/Electro-Harmonix-2A3-EH-Gold-Grid)
You won't be disappointed with this tube...
Vinnie
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Does the SV mean that they were Svetlana tubes?
Steve
I am a newbie to the "Tube Life" having started with the AVC/Tube Stage. Not surprisingly, I have now ordered the DHT Pre. So I have been searching around and comparing tube prices. I found this site; http://www.hi-endstore.com/Svetlana.html. They have the SV 811-10 and other relevant DHT compatible tubes at what appear to be good prices. I have to leave it to others on this site to comment on the quality or reliability of the Hi-End Store since because, as I mentioned earlier, I am a tube novice.
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I am a newbie to the "Tube Life" having started with the AVC/Tube Stage. Not surprisingly, I have now ordered the DHT Pre. So I have been searching around and comparing tube prices. I found this site; http://www.hi-endstore.com/Svetlana.html. They have the SV 811-10 and other relevant DHT compatible tubes at what appear to be good prices. I have to leave it to others on this site to comment on the quality or reliability of the Hi-End Store since because, as I mentioned earlier, I am a tube novice.
That is a good price. I've sent an email to someone I know that lives there to see if he knows them.
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Great. Let us know what you find out.
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Great. Let us know what you find out.
I sent them an email too and it was kicked back. :scratch:
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I sent them an email too and it was kicked back. :scratch:
Not a great sign.
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Has anyone tried "kr px4" tubes in the lio dht?
I remember hearing them years ago,in a eddie current balancing act headphone amp,and they sounded amazing! Rich tonality,extended highs..
Any thoughts?
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I'm using 50's RCA 2A3 tubes. I'm done.
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I'm using 50's RCA 2A3 tubes. I'm done.
These:
https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-2a3-gray-plates
(https://d1sjrnpi226dnf.cloudfront.net/spree/products/large/NOS-2A3-RCA-2.jpg?1381945284)
I have them as well and really like them! (they currently are in my "favorites" list) :inlove:
Need to find a good source of them - they are rare.
Not sure how these RCA 2A3 "gray plates" compare to the black plate version (which seem to be more commonly found).
Has anyone tried "kr px4" tubes in the lio dht?
Not me (yet), decur. These are the ones:
(http://www.theaudiotubes.com/image/cache/data/kr-audio-px-4-tubes-a4029-800x800.JPG)
http://tubesusa.com/KRtubes.html ($732/pair)
mmm, more DHTs !!! :drool: :drool: :drool:
Vinnie
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I'm using 50's RCA 2A3 tubes. I'm done.
What do you guys like about them OR what do they give you over/in comparison to the stock tubes?
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Hey Vinnie,
What is an acceptable difference in "ma" for a so called "matched pair" of DHT's for the LIO??
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Hey Vinnie,
What is an acceptable difference in "ma" for a so called "matched pair" of DHT's for the LIO??
Not Vinnie but not much at all. Matching is VERY important in the DHT!
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What do you guys like about them OR what do they give you over/in comparison to the stock tubes?
Hi jriggy,
I find the RCA 2A3 gray plates have more "midrange magic" and a slightly more holographic presentation.
They do have some more hum compared to the stock EH2A3, but have low 'tube rush' noise like the stock tube.
What is an acceptable difference in "ma" for a so called "matched pair" of DHT's for the LIO??
I'm not so sure you can use that spec to determine how well a pair is matched in the LIO DHT PRE circuit. I do it
by measuring the L/R outputs of the DHT stage with my scope to confirm how well matched they are in this design.
I'm happy when they are matched to within 0.5dB or better.
(And the LIO NUDE RVC volume control is already very tightly matched via the Z-foil resistors, which I believe have a tolerance
of 0.5% or lower). And LIO has a balance control if you find you need to use it (approx. 1dB steps to the L or R).
Vinnie
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Has anyone tried "kr px4" tubes in the lio dht?
I remember hearing them years ago,in a eddie current balancing act headphone amp,and they sounded amazing! Rich tonality,extended highs..
Any thoughts?
There have been some good recent comparisons in some of the Lampizator threads and Facebook pages. The KR PX4 vs PX25 vs 242's. The PX4's are said to be very balanced in terms of euphony/holography/tone vs linearity/control/frequency extension. And very refined in terms of detail. Could be good ones to try!
I have some Lampizator EML anniversary edition 45's coming to me this week I'm stoked about. Yeah, there are a lot of options...
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Will the ElRog 300B work on the LIO? Thomas Mayer has recently taken over their manufacture (a huge +) and I wonder how they would compare to the other 300Bs out there (Thoriated Tungsten 300B, drool). However, I think they require a current regulated source. Mayer has just joined this forum, so maybe he can chime in.
Shawn
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Will the ElRog 300B work on the LIO? Thomas Mayer has recently taken over their manufacture (a huge +) and I wonder how they would compare to the other 300Bs out there (Thoriated Tungsten 300B, drool). However, I think they require a current regulated source. Mayer has just joined this forum, so maybe he can chime in.
Shawn
The LIO DHT PRE uses super-regulators for the filaments. The voltage is set to 2.5V, 4V, or 5Vdc. The output current supplied depends
on the resistance of the filament. At t=0, the filaments tend to draw more current ("in-rush"), and over a few seconds as they warm up, the current draw stabilizes.
It should work just fine if they are 300Bs...
Vinnie
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These:
https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-2a3-gray-plates
(https://d1sjrnpi226dnf.cloudfront.net/spree/products/large/NOS-2A3-RCA-2.jpg?1381945284)
I have them as well and really like them! (they currently are in my "favorites" list) :inlove:
Need to find a good source of them - they are rare.
Not sure how these RCA 2A3 "gray plates" compare to the black plate version (which seem to be more commonly found).
Not me (yet), decur. These are the ones:
(http://www.theaudiotubes.com/image/cache/data/kr-audio-px-4-tubes-a4029-800x800.JPG)
http://tubesusa.com/KRtubes.html ($732/pair)
mmm, more DHTs !!! :drool: :drool: :drool:
Vinnie
Yeah,the kr px4 are pricey,but out of all the dht tubes i have heard over the years,the kr px4 left a memorable impression on me,i still remember drooling over these at the new york head-fi meet,years ago. I wish there was a loaner program for these " hi- end tubes"
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Vinnie,if i get a pair of the kr px4s for my lio dht,i will definitelly send them your way,to try out
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There's a lot of 2a3 talk. I've never heard them myself, but every time I've heard 300B, there's been a lot of hype associated and I've seen the tubes used in a lot of high-end equipment. I've just always expected them to be some magical tube so would think people would use them in LIO if available?
Does the DHT pre also replace the original volume control? If you have the DHT pre, can you decide to go without the tubes and jumper something out to continue using the LIO?
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Vinnie,if i get a pair of the kr px4s for my lio dht,i will definitelly send them your way,to try out
Hi Decur,
THANK YOU - I would love to try them!
but every time I've heard 300B, there's been a lot of hype associated and I've seen the tubes used in a lot of high-end equipment. I've just always expected them to be some magical tube so would think people would use them in LIO if available?
Hi tme110,
DHT customers are also rolling 300B's and enjoying them as well, but please understand that there will be no consensus on the "best" tubes for DHT PRE. It all comes down to what sounds best to you, in your system, with your music, etc.
Does the DHT pre also replace the original volume control?
Yes, the DHT PRE comes with a special version of the RVC module with Vishay nude Z-foil resistors ("NUDE RVC" module).
The NUDE RVC module and DHT PRE module are separate modules in the LIO.
If you have the DHT pre, can you decide to go without the tubes and jumper something out to continue using the LIO?
I suppose you could do this. You would need to remove the DHT PRE module from your LIO and use a "LIO JUMPER" in one of the motherboard headers to complete the bypass. But why do this if you purchased the DHT PRE? :scratch:
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Decor, there is a loaner program. Check the DHT tube tour thread in this forum....
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Oh I understand. I've always wanted to hear a 300B amp because I was under the impression that they were the king of tube amps but I don't know anything about them. The question was more for my understanding, not checking on other peoples choices. The the listening reviews it sounds like I'd be picking something other than the 300b myself if I had the DHT.
It may be illogical but I was currious about going tubeless with the DHT just because of personal needs. I have a fairly small place and everything has it's place. It may seem crazy, but the tubes sticking out of the top would keep the lio from 'fitting'.
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Oh I understand. I've always wanted to hear a 300B amp because I was under the impression that they were the king of tube amps but I don't know anything about them. The question was more for my understanding, not checking on other peoples choices. The the listening reviews it sounds like I'd be picking something other than the 300b myself if I had the DHT.
The Golden Lion 300B that is part of the tube tour was very good sounding (and my second favorite after the EML 2A3 mesh plate) tube. I can definitely see how somebody could pick it as their favorite depending on their system and tastes.
George
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Has anyone tried 45's? I know nothing about them but am looking at some Sylvania 45 Black Plates.
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Has anyone tried 45's? I know nothing about them but am looking at some Sylvania 45 Black Plates.
Tom,
I have a pair of National Union 45 BlackPlates that you can borrow if you like.
George
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Tom,
I have a pair of National Union 45 BlackPlates that you can borrow if you like.
George
Are you sure you didn't sell those to me? :icon_lol:
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Are you sure you didn't sell those to me? :icon_lol:
Oops! Forgot about that.
George
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Are you sure you didn't sell those to me? :icon_lol:
Do tell :green:
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I'll try to throw them back in some time soon, now that the system is settled, and let ya know what I hear.
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Has anyone used Herbie's tube dampers or other tube dampers on the DHT tubes? If so, can you report your findings? Thanks!
David
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Has anyone used Herbie's tube dampers or other tube dampers on the DHT tubes? If so, can you report your findings? Thanks!
David
Yes, I use them.
They work as well as they did for me previously with signal tubes (6922, 6SN7, 12AU7) or power tubes (6AS7, EL34, or 845):
- They cleaned up the sound up and down the spectrum
- Improved detail, imaging, and soundstage
- Provided a more focused, yet musical presence
No, they won't fundamentally change what the LIO DHT tubes are, but they will help them be all they can be.
Highly recommended.
George
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Thanks George! Order placed based on your comments.
David
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Hey George,
Do you have one set that has been fitting all the tubes you've tried?
Jason
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Hey George,
Do you have one set that has been fitting all the tubes you've tried?
Jason
Two sets.
One set fits stock 2A3.
Other fits SV-811 and the EML 2A3 mesh plate.
George
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Anyone have a suggestion on a good "meaty" tube for Rock and Roll?
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Anyone have a suggestion on a good "meaty" tube for Rock and Roll?
Svetlana SV-811's
George
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Svetlana SV-811's
George
+1
SV811's sound so good with rock! :guitar:
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I just installed a pair of Svetlana SV-811's. They sure make a great night light running at 5v!
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I'm pretty new to tube rolling. Is the SV811 the same as the SV811-10 like this one http://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/svetlana-sv811-10/
Thanks!
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Yes, it is. You could check parts express. I recently bought a matched pair of sv811-10's for $149.38 shipped. The only draw back is the wait.
They have to order it from somewhere else. It could be about 3 weeks.
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I'm pretty new to tube rolling. Is the SV811 the same as the SV811-10 like this one http://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/svetlana-sv811-10/
Thanks!
Correct, and I no longer have them for sale.
Thanks, coldfogey, for your post.
I just installed a pair of Svetlana SV-811's. They sure make a great night light running at 5v!
They sure do! :thumb:
Vinnie
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Yes, it is. You could check parts express. I recently bought a matched pair of sv811-10's for $149.38 shipped. The only draw back is the wait.
They have to order it from somewhere else. It could be about 3 weeks.
I bought mine from Parts Express too. It was about a 2 week wait for me.
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Thanks for everyone's help! I will order a pair.
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Hi,
I saw that Vinnie was using KR Audio PX4 tubes at AXPONA with great results.
Also saw some talk about Psvane WE 101D for the LIO.
Does anyone have experience with these tubes in the LIO DHT?
I settled on the EML 2A3 mesh (more refined highs than the stock tubes) and wonder how the KR PX4 or Psavane WE101D tubes compare.
Also tried the SV811-10 but they were just too dense in my system, not enough air and sparkle...
Thank you!
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I heard the KR Audio PX4 at Axpona and was impressed. So when I came home from Chicago I bought some. Will get here in a few days. Will report back on how they sound in my system.
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I couldn't resist ordering a set of the KR PX-4 tubes after reading all of the positive comments. Driving Harbeth Super HL5+ with the LIO Integrated Amp, I've been using Gold Lion PX300B, which I've enjoyed very much up to this point. However they're somewhat overly smooth and the last bit of extension on the high end was missing. Received the PX-4's today and wow - what a difference, even right out of the box. The top end has opened up considerably, as has the sound stage. The dynamics seems to have increased considerably as well. There's more life in the music. All with no harshness. I can't wait to hear what happens once these tubes have time to burn in. Despite the cost I'm very pleased.
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Where did you order the KR PX4s? Thanks.
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All,
The KR Audio PX4's can be purchased from:
www.best300b.com/ (from Poland).
Thanks for posting your initial impressions, frankrondaniel!
Vinnie
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Thanks you for moving my post about the KR px4 tubes to the " for sale" area. What I was trying to convey was I built a preamp around 10 years ago consisting of a Bent Audio Tap passive feeding an all tube gain stage( Supratek Cabernet). The sound was glorious, but not until I found the KR px4's. Other px4's were so microphonic they interfered with the music. The KR's are VERY expensive but the quality is a lot better. Even the glass is thicker than other px4's. I know the Lio is a different beast, but if your going to roll px4's , the KR's were a lot better than cheaper brands.
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Thanks you for moving my post about the KR px4 tubes to the " for sale" area. What I was trying to convey was I built a preamp around 10 years ago consisting of a Bent Audio Tap passive feeding an all tube gain stage( Supratek Cabernet). The sound was glorious, but not until I found the KR px4's. Other px4's were so microphonic they interfered with the music. The KR's are VERY expensive but the quality is a lot better. Even the glass is thicker than other px4's. I know the Lio is a different beast, but if your going to roll px4's , the KR's were a lot better than cheaper brands.
Hi hi5harry,
Thank you for your understanding about moving your post to the FS area.
I was really blown away by the KR PX4s at Axpona, and my pair is on the way. I'll be using them in LIO at LAAS show and others!
Thanks for posting your experiences with them,
Vinnie
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Hi,
just saw that Emission Labs also makes a PX4 mesh.
Any idea how it compares with the KR PX4?
Thanks, Tom
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Vinnie -
Are you able to provide more thoughts about how the KR PX4 compare to the SV 811? And did you ever have a chance to try the Takatsuki 300Bs?
I'm also curious how the upcoming flagship app might affect tube matching - would it be better to wait until that is released to find the best tube for a user's system/ear?
Thanks!
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Vinnie -
Are you able to provide more thoughts about how the KR PX4 compare to the SV 811? And did you ever have a chance to try the Takatsuki 300Bs?
I'm also curious how the upcoming flagship app might affect tube matching - would it be better to wait until that is released to find the best tube for a user's system/ear?
Thanks!
Hi sbj23,
Once I receive my PX4s (as well as Psvane WE 101-DL's), I'll compare them to the SV811s, EML 2A3 mesh, and others I have here.
As far as tube matching to the rest of your system (including LIO modules), I recommend waiting until you have everything running together before deciding, as that is the only way you will know if you are getting the results that you are looking for.
Vinnie
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I heard KRpx4 tubes at Axpona and loved them. As soon as I got home I ordered them. Received them late last Friday. After 40 hours of break-in they sound great. Lush mid range , more extended highs, tighter bass. They exceeded my expectations. The sound stage is enormous and everything is bigger in a good way. They are expensive but in my mind they are worth it. I whole heartedly recommend them.
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I am really enjoying my kr px4 in my lio dht,they push all my right buttons,deep punchy bass,air,liquidity,rich sounding tone,and
Extended highs without sibilance.also dead quiet
The svetlana sv811s are really nice tubes for the money,with rich tone and deep bass,the problem i have with these tubes are microphonics. These tubes are noisy at low listening levels.
The kr px4,s are in another league,and worth every penny to me.
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Thanks for your feedback, guys - and special THANKS to decur for letting me try his KR PX4's at Axpona.
I'm really glad I did! 8)
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Vinnie
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They are expensive but in my mind they are worth it. I whole heartedly recommend them.
Order placed.
Steve
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Where did you order the KR PX4s? Thanks.
I ordered from the same place that Vinnie listed. Very quick shipping - even from Poland!
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Thanks, I did the same. Should have them Friday. :D
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KR Audio PX4's in da house :green:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161944)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161945)
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KR Audio PX4's in da house :green:
Oh my, someone has gone off the deep end! :thumb:
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Those are the ones! 8)
This is what I posted from my Axpona thread about using the PX-4's:
Enter the KR AUDIO PX-4 DHT
On Friday I was using SV811s (a show favorite with the SHL5's), but on Saturday morning a customer
surprised me with a new pair of KR Audio PX-4s that he just bought the week before and has fallen in
love with. He was willing to let me borrow them for the rest of the show if I liked them, and I couldn't resist
trying a new DHT with the LIO.
Not an inexpensive tube (~ $800/pair ?), but they AMAZED us all! :o :singing: :drool:
These tubes have the rich midrange of the SV811's, but with a more extended top end and more solid bass, . It was
a tube that could play rock, jazz, classical, electronica... all equally well and left some LIO customers who visited wanting
to get a pair for themselves (myself included!).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161334&size=small)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161337&size=small)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161336&size=small)
These tubes run on the 4V filament setting and only draw 1.1A of current each, so they run fairly cool
and should last a very long time in the LIO DHT PRE circuit.
---
So it looks like quite a few of you guys also have them (or they are on their way to you). Enjoy them!
Vinnie
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Oh my, someone has gone off the deep end! :thumb:
10 bars into the first cut I knew, these things are ridiculous compared to the EH 2A3's :thumb:
Can't add much more as Vinnie has described the sound perfectly, but trust me, it's more than a marginal improvement.
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So, I got a chance to listen to the KR PX4s today. :o I thought the WE 101Ds were good (and they are), however, the PX4s just do everything better. Some things like mids and staging, a little better, but bass and highs were significantly better IMO. This is with 5 hours on them. They sound clear, open, spacious, sweet, detailed, and have grunt. The bass is remarkable! Actually, the tubes are remarkable in that I heard no deficiency, so far.
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I've had the KR PX-4's for almost a week now. Not sure how many hours but the LIO's been on most of the day each day. I think these guys have only gotten better. Initially I thought they were a little light on the low end but the sound now seems to have added some weight. Could simply be my ears adjusting but I like the result! I'm experiencing a smooth yet detailed sound that has tonal weight and a sound stage that seems that seems to extend well beyond my speakers (with the stock 2A3 and Gold Lion PX-300B the sound seemed more "localized" to the speakers). They were a somewhat expensive buy but I have no regrets at all. Hopefully I'm not over-hyping these guys but I'm very happy with what the KR PX-4's bring to the table. Just hope they last so I don't have to buy them again soon!
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+1
SV811's sound so good with rock! :guitar:
If anyone is interested, I have two pair for sale in the classifieds. They did not like being near my plasma TV!
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Hi,
Has anyone been able to compare the KR PX4s with the EML 2A3s?
Also saw a post in which Vinnie said that the filament current of the KR PX4 is low enough to use the VR Mini ultracap PS instead of the standard LPS.
Has anyone tried this and is there a benefit?
Thanks!
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Hi,
Has anyone been able to compare the KR PX4s with the EML 2A3s?
Also saw a post in which Vinnie said that the filament current of the KR PX4 is low enough to use the VR Mini ultracap PS instead of the standard LPS.
Has anyone tried this and is there a benefit?
Thanks!
Hi trcks,
I have both and prefer the KR PX4 in the LIO DHT PRE. The PX4 is more like mixing the 300B / 811 qualities with the EML 2A3 mesh, and giving you a healthy dose of what they each do so well (but without noise and hum).
At some point I'll try using the VR MINI as the power supply for the PX4 filaments and will report back... good idea! 8)
Vinnie
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Bought the KR PX4 as well! Can't wait for it to arrive!
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How are the KR Px4s sounding?
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How are the KR Px4s sounding?
Hi mcanaday,
Hopefully others with the KR PX-4 will chime in, but my take is that they are somewhere in the middle between the SV811 and the EML 2A3 Mesh Plate. Bass and midrange is similar to what I love about the SV811. Top end extension and openness ("air") is similar to what I love about the EML 2A3 Mesh Plate.
The KR PX4 is definitely one of my favorite tubes to use with LIO DHT PRE! :singing: :drool: 8)
Vinnie
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Thanks, Vinnie. Still really getting good results with the stock tubes, but I may have to try these!
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Hello ,
It would be really nice to hear what all the tubes type that work with the LIO DHT sound like. 2A3 / 45, 300B, PX4 / PX25, 101D / 205D, and SV811 / SV572 . Has anyone tried all of the tube types and would have a break down of each?
Vinnie ,
Is there a reason you choose to use the 2A3 for the stock version as opposed to the other types?
Thanks
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Hello ,
It would be really nice to hear what all the tubes type that work with the LIO DHT sound like. 2A3 / 45, 300B, PX4 / PX25, 101D / 205D, and SV811 / SV572 . Has anyone tried all of the tube types and would have a break down of each?
Vinnie ,
Is there a reason you choose to use the 2A3 for the stock version as opposed to the other types?
Thanks
Hi Mr. Rock,
Welcome to the VR forum!
The included Electro Harmonics 2A3 "Gold Grid" tubes are very linear, very quiet and deliver a very wide bandwidth out to around 500kHz in the LIO DHT PRE circuit. They are new production, so I decided that these would be the "stock" tubes and bought a bunch of matched pairs to include with DHT PRE.
They are an excellent starting point and quite "neutral" sounding. For some of my DHT PRE customers, they love them and have no desire to change. For others looking for more warmth, more richness of tone, more bass, etc... there are others that you probably enjoy even more! :singing:
You might want to read over this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=144292.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=144292.0)
But keep in mind that your results will vary based on a number of other factors, such as your speakers, room acoustics,
type of music, etc.
I'll be happy to help with recommendations if you email me...
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Vinnie ,
Thanks for the welcome to your forum page. I will have to check out The Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT Preamp Tube Tour 2016. There is a lot information here on the VR forum. Looking forward to learning more.
Thanks
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Mr. Rock,
The more I listen to various DHTs, the more I continue to appreciate and love the KR PX-4.
I find it to be the "middle way" between the EML 2A3 Mesh Plate and the SV811-10, which I
also enjoy for different moods and music.
I'm also curious if any LIO DHT owners have tried the Takatsuki 300B? Wink2
(https://audiograb.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ct6a4351_zps3bc6c5fd.jpg?w=860&h=573)
Vinnie
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Yes I have but I only have the stock EH tubes and another set of 300b from china to compare them with. The Takatsuki 300Bs are simply superb. Huge, analogue, holographic soundstage. Bass extends smoothly to 30hz and as I don’t have much material lower than that haven’t tested with anything lower. Female voice is very engaging.
I have been using my RWAK240+ as the DAC with great results but after switching to the DAC 2.0 it’s another level up.
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The Takatsuki 300Bs are simply superb. Huge, analogue, holographic soundstage. Bass extends smoothly to 30hz and as I don’t have much material lower than that haven’t tested with anything lower. Female voice is very engaging.
I have been using my RWAK240+ as the DAC with great results but after switching to the DAC 2.0 it’s another level up.
Hi flkin,
Thanks for chiming in about the Takatsuki 300B. :drool:
Maybe someone coming to Rocky Mountain Audio Fest has a pair and would like to listen to them with LIO DHT PRE? 8)
(hey, that's how I learned about the KR PX4 at AXPONA this year!).
Vinnie
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If you get to the show in NYC, I have a pair of Taks, a pair of EL Rogs and a bunch of original WEs (300B and 275A pairs) to do an ear test.
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If you get to the show in NYC, I have a pair of Taks, a pair of EL Rogs and a bunch of original WEs (300B and 275A pairs) to do an ear test.
hi sfox7076,
Thanks for your offer! I won't be exhibiting at the NYC show this year. RMAF will be my last show of 2017.
And there will be many more for 2018. :whip:
Vinnie
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Mr. Rock,
The more I listen to various DHTs, the more I continue to appreciate and love the KR PX-4.
I find it to be the "middle way" between the EML 2A3 Mesh Plate and the SV811-10, which I
also enjoy for different moods and music.
I'm also curious if any LIO DHT owners have tried the Takatsuki 300B? Wink2
(https://audiograb.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ct6a4351_zps3bc6c5fd.jpg?w=860&h=573)
Vinnie
I joined the KR-PX4 club yesterday. I have to trot out the well worn phrase ... "nothing but the truth." They are totally involving and that was after they had only been playing for an hour. I am/was a big fan of the Electro-Harmonix 2A3's, especially for the money. Although the KR-PX4's cost about 5 times as much, they are worth every penny. No buyers remorse here. Mids, base, treble, detail and vocals without etch or sibilance, its all there (or not) as appropriate. The bass seems to be as powerful as the music calls for without interfering with the mids or treble which makes for great seperation of the individual instruments. Great body and texture as well as convinceing soundstage. They are really revealing of what the DHT is all about and it takes the LIO up at least 2 levels. WOW!
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Hi Yardbird4,
Welcome to the KR PX4 club! :thumb:
Although the KR-PX4's cost about 5 times as much, they are worth every penny. No buyers remorse here. Mids, base, treble, detail and vocals without etch or sibilance, its all there (or not) as appropriate. The bass seems to be as powerful as the music calls for without interfering with the mids or treble which makes for great separation of the individual instruments. Great body and texture as well as convincing soundstage. They are really revealing of what the DHT is all about and it takes the LIO up at least 2 levels. WOW!
Sounds like you are enjoying them! 8)
Thanks for posting!
Vinnie
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What do you guys feel is the most detailed tube that can be run in the LIO? (Without spending crazy money!)
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What do you guys feel is the most detailed tube that can be run in the LIO? (Without spending crazy money!)
Hey mike,
We’ve had similar gear paths before and I think I know what you have but not sure... Apart from tube choice, I may be able to help some in the detail department. Shoot me a PM if ya want...
Jason
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What do you guys feel is the most detailed tube that can be run in the LIO? (Without spending crazy money!)
Hi mca,
A very clean, detailed, linear, high bandwidth, and low-noise tube to use with LIO DHT PRE is the EH 2A3 Gold Grid tube... just
sayin' :wink:
Vinnie
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Hi mca,
A very clean, detailed, linear, high bandwidth, and low-noise tube to use with LIO DHT PRE is the EH 2A3 Gold Grid tube... just
sayin' :wink:
Vinnie
Amen. And it does not break the bank either.
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Hey mike,
We’ve had similar gear paths before and I think I know what you have but not sure... Apart from tube choice, I may be able to help some in the detail department. Shoot me a PM if ya want...
Jason
Also, if going with the DAC 2.0 module and get some Daedalus DiD’s under the LIO, you will be very happy in the detail department.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170687)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170688)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170689)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170690)
Ever since getting the LIO I've been curious to hear these tubes. Price was a factor as I thought how much better really? So a few days ago I struck a deal with Parts Connexion and here they are. Take this with a grain of salt as the first listen was with 45 minutes on the tubes. My system is in the gallery if you want to know. Well first off, they don't suck! :D I had been using KR PX-4s and I'm very familiar with their clear, clean, and full sound. I have a very expensive tube R2R dac using 101D tubes that I stuck in the system just to get a sense of it compared to the Vinnie Rossi 2.0 dac. Well, the sound stage seemed to open up and draw me in to it. Definitely warmer, richer, and very dense. But, it lacked some bass depth and solidity compared to the 2.0. So back to the 2.0 and now with the Taks. Yikes, everything I like about the tube dac was there, but tighter bass and less fuzz. Like in the middle between the KR PX-4s with the 2.0 and the tube dac. I'll chime in when the Taks have some more time on them. So far, I'm really liking what I'm hearing. Buy the way, the 2.0 dac is so much better than the 1.0. It is truly a bargain if you own a LIO and want to upgrade.
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Hi Chris,
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170689)
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
So back to the 2.0 and now with the Taks. Yikes, everything I like about the tube dac was there, but tighter bass and less fuzz. Like in the middle between the KR PX-4s with the 2.0 and the tube dac. I'll chime in when the Taks have some more time on them. So far, I'm really liking what I'm hearing. Buy the way, the 2.0 dac is so much better than the 1.0. It is truly a bargain if you own a LIO and want to upgrade.
I'm glad to are enjoying those Tak 300Bs! Thanks for posting your initial impressions.
LIO "X1" DHT PRE (with Tak 300B) + VR120 monoblocks + Spatial X1s... N I C E ! ! ! :drool: :drool: :drool: :singing:
Enjoy it, Chris!
Vinnie
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A quick update. I just listened again and with the tubes having only 4 1/2 hours on them, I would happily live with them as is and I've read that break in is 200-250 hours. Of course that's in a power amp and not the way they are being run in the LIO, so I guess I'll find out just how long. When I first listened last night what immediately came to mind was "Space, the final frontier." The sound stage is vast, with air and space and it just sounds scrumptious. And that's on a multi mic studio recording.
I have never heard my gear at any point in time sound this good to me.:banana piano:
If you havn't looked at my system, here's what it looks like from my chair:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170727)
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A quick update. I just listened again and with the tubes having only 4 1/2 hours on them, I would happily live with them as is and I've read that break in is 200-250 hours. Of course that's in a power amp and not the way they are being run in the LIO, so I guess I'll find out just how long. When I first listened last night what immediately came to mind was "Space, the final frontier." The sound stage is vast, with air and space and it just sounds scrumptious. And that's on a multi mic studio recording.
I have never heard my gear at any point in time sound this good to me.:banana piano:
If you havn't looked at my system, here's what it looks like from my chair:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170727)
Very cool, nice system Chris, I'll bet it sounds fantastic.
Best,
Ed
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Ed, what are you using as tube covers on the LIO? Can you also describe more the difference between the Tatsuki and the KR PX4s?
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I'm assuming you mean me. :D
The tube covers come with the LIO. They work extremely well to reduce noise with the DHT tubes when necessary.
The difference I hear is that the KR PX-4s are leaner overall and maybe have better definition in the bass than the Taks. That's not to say the PX-4s are lean, just in comparison. With my setup, I like the fullness of the Taks better.
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Hi Chris
I also have the X1's with the LIO (DHT Pre, DAC 2.0) amp and am interested in how others have set up their system with these speakers.
Would you mind describing your system and what changes (if any) you made to get where you're currently at?
Thanks
I'm assuming you mean me. :D
The tube covers come with the LIO. They work extremely well to reduce noise with the DHT tubes when necessary.
The difference I hear is that the KR PX-4s are leaner overall and maybe have better definition in the bass than the Taks. That's not to say the PX-4s are lean, just in comparison. With my setup, I like the fullness of the Taks better.
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TimS, You have a PM. :D
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Vinnie,
Are the LIO tube covers available now, or are you still having trouble finding a supplier for it?
Jason
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Vinnie,
Are the LIO tube covers available now, or are you still having trouble finding a supplier for it?
Jason
Hi Jason,
I had a few different vendors try to make the covers ('deep drawing' process) and finish them (black or
silver anodize) and they all couldn't seem make them without scratches, dings, etc. They just didn't look good
enough, so I kinda gave up for now on them out of frustration. :banghead:
In the meantime, if you want to try something to see if it makes a difference, you can do a google image search
for:
- Aluminum canister
- Aluminum container
- etc.
The dimensions of the one that I wanted to work out was: 3.25" dia. x 5.25" tall
I just spotted this and it is very inexpensive (and ugly, but I think any cover over the tubes will not really look that good anyway):
https://www.specialtybottle.com/metal-tin-containers/tea/tws6?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuY7mlMmo1wIVTpJ-Ch3iSwzxEAQYASABEgJiB_D_BwE (https://www.specialtybottle.com/metal-tin-containers/tea/tws6?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuY7mlMmo1wIVTpJ-Ch3iSwzxEAQYASABEgJiB_D_BwE)
2.6" x 6". Should work out and you can initially just place it on top of the LIO top panel and test it out.
(https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-xizoo/products/354/images/1647/tws6__13488.1441782955.300.300.jpg?c=2)
The ones that I was having made were much, much more costly because it was a custom size and I had to buy a deep draw die
(tooling costs) to the dimensions that I wanted, and have them sandblasted smooth and finished. This is a different process than the usual CNC machining, which you wouldn't do with a thin metal cover like this. :wink:
Best regards,
Vinnie
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The tube covers are important for the TA – 300Bs because they are slightly microphonic. You can test this by playing something loud and pressing stop on the music player. You can hear the decay of the last bit of music.
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The difference I hear is that the KR PX-4s are leaner overall and maybe have better definition in the bass than the Taks. That's not to say the PX-4s are lean, just in comparison. With my setup, I like the fullness of the Taks better.
Are they otherwise comparable to each other in detail and upper extension?
Thanks
[a diferent] Jason
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Reguarding tube covers... I used a cut down 4” poster tube for mailing (extra thick) (no top). After getting used to the systems sound in a new room I felt the sound was just a touch forward. I removed the tube covers And the mids relaxed just enough and 3verything seemed to ‘breath’ just a bit more... Not saying tube covers are good OR bad in every scenario, it probably depends on what tubes you are using and where the LIO is placed. So just like tube dampeners, YMMV.
Vinnie,
Have you thought of a plexiglass tube cover with an aluminum top plate and bottom ring for securing? The top could even be perforated if nessisary. I thought of making an all plexi version before I realized I like the sound without tube dampeners or a cover.
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Hi jriggy,
For reducing / removing hum, the covers need to be metal.
Vinnie
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Are they otherwise comparable to each other in detail and upper extension?
Thanks
[a diferent] Jason
At this point they are pretty close. The Taks have only 30 hours or so on them and they are morphing a bit. Until they settle down it's going to be hard to compare subtle differences.
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All,
I'm also placing an order for TAK TA-300B's as well. Once I get them and rack up some burn-in hours, I'll also post my
impressions of TA-300B vs. KR PX-4.
Looking forward to it!
Vinnie
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A quick update. I just listened again and with the tubes having only 4 1/2 hours on them, I would happily live with them as is and I've read that break in is 200-250 hours. Of course that's in a power amp and not the way they are being run in the LIO, so I guess I'll find out just how long. When I first listened last night what immediately came to mind was "Space, the final frontier." The sound stage is vast, with air and space and it just sounds scrumptious. And that's on a multi mic studio recording.
I have never heard my gear at any point in time sound this good to me.:banana piano:
If you havn't looked at my system, here's what it looks like from my chair:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170727)
Sweet Chris ENJOY !!!!
charles
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All,
TAK TA-300B's should be here by the end of next week, and then I'll run them in for a few day and update this thread. 8)
Vinnie
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Recently my DHT LIO with Tata TA-300Bs was sounding compressed. The sound stage smaller than what I remembered. Bass not as solid and highs sort of flatter.
I was in the midst of testing cables, trying to see if JSSG shielded cables were better than plain ones on signal and DC cables.
Something was not right. I wasn't getting the usual fix of audio happiness after a session in the HiFi room. And I continue to fiddle with power supplies, earthing, cables. And it got better in some configurations but not the usual magical feeling I normally feel.
Then it happened. What was that sound? A 65Hz hum from the left speaker. Surely an earthing problem. Unplugged one by one all components, power supplies, routers, UltraRendu, LPS-1 ultra capacitor supply. Eventually arrived at only the LIO and power amp on with nothing else attached. Still the hum. Swapped the balanced cables on the LIO from left to right channel, the hum moved to the right side speaker. Oh no, it's coming from the LIO for sure now.
Then suddenly the memory of what Vinnie said in bold came to me - keep your tube connectors clean. So I did my first cleaning in a long time. Ear buds, alcohol, the works. Amazing what black gunk comes out of those cleaning looking shiny gold connectors.
The hum disappeared. The magic all came back, soundstage regained to original size, bass much cleaner and solid, details and air in the treble all came back. It was like changing a new superior component. It was beautiful again. A lesson learned - KEEP THOSE CONNECTORS CLEAN! It really makes a difference and saves a bunch of worries. In this hobby with so many variables affecting the sound, it can be a quite a task to troubleshoot problems. Worst still if there no clear problem but the sound is 80% of the potential all because of dirty connectors, what a waste of a good system. How long have I been listening to a sub-standard system I wonder? :duh:
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Hi,
just wanted to share some of my tube rolling experiences with the DHT while we wait for Vinnie to report back on the Tak TA-300b
I use the KR-PX4 about 80% of the time it truly is the jack of all and master of most. It can be used with about all music genres and is very quiet. A lot has been written about the KR-PX4 with this forum and would agree most that has, so won’t repeat. Other to say if I had to pick one it would be it.
I will instead will talk about my experiences with the EML 45-mesh. I got this tube pair early this summer and was initially disappointed as the first time I had it in the DHT, there was an audible hum at volume position 1. It was a baseline hum that didn’t increase with an increase in volume. If I could ignore the hum while listen, I thought the sound otherwise was pretty in general organic/natural sounding more so than other tubes.
However, I could not really get past the hum, and was contemplating return or putting them for sale, but then it dawned on me that maybe if I could shield them in some way. The only thing handy was a pair of large stainless-steel cocktail shakers. They worked and cut the hum down by 70%, but they are still pretty sensitive to EM or RF fields. Anytime I walk by the LIO DHT and I have or a record on the nearby turntable is carrying a static charged they hum increased.
Recently a couple of months ago, I was using a Zerostat on a record near the DHT and the hum evaporated, hmmmm? You can Question the wisdom of it, but I use the Zero stat about 24 inches away but pointed at the tubes and the hum is dramatically reduced to my indifference point nearly every time. Usually equalize the field before turning on the LIO
Subsequent, to the that day have been using them more and have a better idea what they can do. To my ears, the 45-mesh is very similar to the EM 2A3-Mesh but more transparent, detailed, better separation and open with better good base extension and soundstage. It is mild but the 2A3-M seems some veiled when comparing to the 45-M. Comparing to the Kr-PX4, the 45-M lacks the body the PX4 has, but is little more nimble and detailed. I prefer 45-M for small ensembles jazz, vocals, and small orchestras, but prefer the PX4 for all other music.
In summary, the 45-mesh is a bit “high maintenance” tube with use in the DHT due its sensitivity to EM and RF fields and its baseline hum may put people off, but if can manage to reduce it hum by tube covers or placement away from obvious sources of EM fields, it has rewards particularly when listening to jazz.
CCJ
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Hi flkin,
Thank you for your post. If the sockets AND tube pins are not clean, you *will* hear it with this highly revealing DHT PRE design.
It is also very important to keep the socket connections tight so they make good contact with the tube pins. Well worth the 5 or 10
minutes to clean and tighten them all every once in a while (depending on how much tube rolling you do) for best results!
Hi CCJ,
Thank you for posting about your experience with the KR PX4 and EML 45s. I was curious about those 45s!
Recently a couple of months ago, I was using a Zerostat on a record near the DHT and the hum evaporated, hmmmm? You can Question the wisdom of it, but I use the Zero stat about 24 inches away but pointed at the tubes and the hum is dramatically reduced to my indifference point nearly every time. Usually equalize the field before turning on the LIO
Interesting find! I will try this and see what happens.
Vinnie
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Filament noise is a real phenomena with DHT tubes. More so the tubes than the sockets I find. A little deoxit works on newer tubes. I have had the issue with my radio tubes and had to use fine grit sandpaper (the tubes are from the 20s-30s, so you can expect there to be some corrosion). Once you hear it a few times, you can identify it vs. other hums. It's hard to explain, but you will hear the difference. The cathode of these tubes is directly connected to the filament (usually the negative side), so any noise issue on the filament translates to noise.
Zerostat reducing the hum seems odd to me. The two types of hum should be different. Is the Lio near something that might be magnetically charged?
Shawn
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Shawn,
The system is about 3-4 meters from the kitchen vertically and about 3-4 meters from washer and dryer horizonally both in separate rooms. The hum is was more/less consistent even when the system was 5-6 meters away from both. My turntable is a adjacent to the LIO, but I limited by the length of the cables and the TT is grounded, but maybe a source of the charge.
None of my other tubes hum in the current LIO location ie. 811, 2a3 mesh or EH, 300b. i just attributed the hum to the 45-m's sensitivity. It could be also the specific to my pair of 45s one channel seems to hum more than the other.
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All,
TAK TA-300B's are here, but I won't have time to do some serious listening until this weekend. In the meantime, they will burn-in. :flame::idea: :idea:
I want to post more on the VR forum, but I am intensely busy with LIO orders and working on plans for 2018 (I'll get into that later). I'm still amazed by how quickly 2017 has passed by! :hyper:
Vinnie
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Arrghhhh - I've been seriously too busy and have not yet had time to carefully listen and compare the TAK 300B's to the KR PX4's. :banghead:
I should finally have time this weekend of all the planets and stars align.
Back to work
Vinnie :xmas:
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Looking forward to your impressions (comparison)vinnie,
Especially in the bass quality department! An area where pretty much every 300b i have heard,has come up short....
The kr px4 for me is a true “jack of all trades” and works really well with the lio dht"...
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Looking forward to your impressions (comparison)vinnie,
Especially in the bass quality department! An area where pretty much every 300b i have heard,has come up short....
The kr px4 for me is a true “jack of all trades” and works really well with the lio dht"...
I'm listening both days this weekend and will be reporting my findings soon! :singing:
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All,
This weekend I was able to listen for a few hours each day to LIO DHT Integrated Amplifier fitted with Takatsuki TA-300B tubes DAC 2.0. I burned them in for a total of about 100 hours last week. I’m not sure if they will get even better (they might!). Ok, here we go:
Takatsuki TA-300B
I am excited to say that I found that the TA-300B fully realizes what I set out to achieve with the LIO DHT PRE design. It simply excels at delivering a vast, holographic soundstage beyond what I have heard with any other DHT at this point. It truly is an incredibly open and spacious sounding tube!
It also offers amazing nuance and layers of texture that lets you hear deep into the recording. A handful of other DHTs provide excellent detail, but TA-300B has a crystalline quality and seems to pull it all off without a hint of hardness or glare. It is hard to put it into words – and while I do not want to be cliché and just say, “there is this magic going on,” but it is something like that. :singing:
The TA-300B gives a healthy dose of richness to the sound, but not overly rich or “thick." Therefore, attributes such as speed and transient attack are fast and snappy and never rounded out or sluggish sounding. Notes on pianos, guitar strings, cymbals, etc. have awesome decay after the strike/pluck, and remarkable precision.
Vocals are simply natural, breathy, and tangible. :drool:
In terms of bass response, the TA-300B has clean, tight bass. It’s quick and very well defined, but I can see how one might prefer the bass of the KR PX-4, which seems to have a little more weight (see below), or an SV811-10 (even weightier). But listening to the TA-300B, I never once felt the bass was lacking in quantity.
So are these TA-300B’s “perfect?” It is hard to say for sure how others would find their sound – especially with a different speakers, rooms, positioning, etc. In the past when we had the DHT Tube Tour, the impressions of the same tubes in the LIO DHT PRE varied quite a bit from person to person, so I would imagine the same could happen here. For me, the TA-300B is the most perfect of any of the DHTs that I have heard so far with LIO DHT PRE. This comes at a high price (MSRP is $2500/pair).
TA-300B vs KR PX-4
So are the TA-300Bs ‘significantly’ better the KR PX-4? No, not significantly. Some might actually prefer the KR PX-4’s slightly weightier bass and richer tone (I love those qualities, too!). But in terms of clarity, openness, air, speed, texture, and delicacy, the TA-300B does these things like no other DHT that I have heard so far in this circuit topology. It is remarkable, and just to emphasize what I mentioned above, the TA-300B is not lacking at all in bass or tonal richness. It is only when you compare them side-by-side to the KR PX-4 that you notice it.
TA-300B is a quiet tube that has lower microphonics and self-noise than the KR PX-4.
So am I selling off my KR PX-4’s? No way! I love them and will continue to enjoy them and bring them to the shows. For under $1k/pair, I say they are the ones to beat. But from what I heard over this weekend, TA-300B now becomes my reference tube for LIO DHT PRE.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173001&size=tiny) :bowdown: :notworthy: :eyebrows:
Vinnie
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Just ordered my DHT Pre today. I will be trying the Elrog 300b, the EH 2A3, 300b, and the JJ 2A3. The Elrog and the JJ have been my favorites in my Bottlehead amps. Merry Christmas to me! :xmas:
Happy Holidays to all!
Best,
Ed
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I know it is a big ask but .... Tour, Tour, Tour :lol: :thumb:
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Thanks for sharing your impressions, Vinnie. I was lucky enough to snag a used pair of Taks a couplebyears who for $700. Enjoying them in my Lampizator Big7 DAC, I’ve had a very similar impression as you. You may or may not fully enjoy the 300b flavor, but the refinement of the sound of the Taks is off the charts. A whole other level than the KR stuff or any other DHT I’ve tried IMO. Although I haven’t heard a vintage Western Electric...
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Just ordered my DHT Pre today. I will be trying the Elrog 300b, the EH 2A3, 300b, and the JJ 2A3. The Elrog and the JJ have been my favorites in my Bottlehead amps. Merry Christmas to me! :xmas:
Happy Holidays to all!
Best,
Ed
Hi Ed,
Thank you for your order, and I hope to ship your DHT PRE kit for your LIO by the end of this year. I look forward to your impressions of those Elrog 300B's (I have not heard them yet).
Hi yardbird,
I know it is a big ask but .... Tour, Tour, Tour :lol: :thumb:
If I get another pair of TA-300Bs, then I will consider doing it again. :green:
the refinement of the sound of the Taks is off the charts.
Hi genjamon,
It sure is!
I had another late-night, dark room listening session with the TA-300Bs in the LIO - stunning!
I also have never heard the legendary vintage Western Electric 300B in the DHT PRE. One day...
Vinnie
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Hi Vinnie,
you mentioned "clarity, openness, air, speed, texture, and delicacy" for the TA-300B.
How does it compare with the EML 2A3mesh which shares these characteristics, I believe?
Any differences in microphonics, noise etc.?
Thank you, Tom
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Hi Vinnie,
you mentioned "clarity, openness, air, speed, texture, and delicacy" for the TA-300B.
How does it compare with the EML 2A3mesh which shares these characteristics, I believe?
Any differences in microphonics, noise etc.?
Thank you, Tom
Hi Tom,
Good question!
The TA-300B does all of those attributes even better than the EML 2A3 Mesh, and with lower microphonics and noise.
TA-300B is more holographic, and has a more natural / refined / and delicate sound.
NOTE: While I'm not selling my KR PX-4s, I have two pairs of EML 2A3 Mesh Plates that I am open to selling. They have only
been used in LIO DHT PRE (so they never were used to drive speakers), so they are as good as new. I have the original box.
Email me if interested.
Vinnie
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Hi yardbird,
If I get another pair of TA-300Bs, then I will consider doing it again. :green:
Understood! :green: :icon_lol: 8)
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Awesome review vinnie,look forward to hearing the taks some day!
Fyi,i have heard original western electric 300b’s and the chinese clones of this tube out there do not come close to original in sound quality(missing the magic,and the tonality)....
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There are a few scattered comments over on Audioshark in the Lampizator threads of a few guys who have vintage WE 300b’s who have also heard the Taks. If I recall correctly, the consensus was the Taks weren’t quite the equals of the WE, but they weren’t far off.
-
If I recall correctly, the consensus was the Taks weren’t quite the equals of the WE, but they weren’t far off.
So the NOS WE300Bs are considered to be even be better than TAK TA300B? Hard to imagine, but for
the cost, I will have to stick to imagining for now. :green:
$5k for a matched pair:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1952-matched-pair (https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1952-matched-pair)
It looks like they are back in production, but I'm not sure how they compare to NOS WE 300B.
http://www.westernelectric.com/products-300b.html (http://www.westernelectric.com/products-300b.html)
Awesome review vinnie,look forward to hearing the taks some day!
Fyi,i have heard original western electric 300b’s and the chinese clones of this tube out there do not come close to original in sound quality(missing the magic,and the tonality)....
Good to know, Decur, because Psvane WE300B replicas are not cheap (I think I've seen them going for around $800/pair)
Vinnie
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This is the second re-start of WE production. Consensus was that the first restart (in the 90's, I think?) didn't nearly hit the mark. Good, but not great, and probably not even as good as the current production Taks. I haven't seen any threads yet about the new WE's. Though I haven't really been looking at DHT threads for a while. I've settled on the Taks, some Lampi KR 45's, and Psvane WE101D replicas, which offer a nice palette of sonic attributes to choose from. Haven't heard the PX4's, though, and would like to at some point given all the praise you all have for them.
-
I've settled on the Taks, some Lampi KR 45's, and Psvane WE101D replicas, which offer a nice palette of sonic attributes to choose from. Haven't heard the PX4's, though, and would like to at some point given all the praise you all have for them.
Hi genjamon,
I really like how you say "... which offer a nice palette of sonic attributes to choose from."
That's exactly how I feel about having a few different DHT favorites around to play with, depending on
what I am listening to and what type of presentation I'm looking for. Variety is the spice of life. 8)
My current palette of favorites:
- TAK TA-300B (Holographic, open, clear, grain-less, precise, textured, exquisite. Low hum/microphonics)
- KR PX-4 (Trades-off some of the finest attributes of the TA-300B for a little more bass energy and richness in the midrange. A fine 'jack-of-all-trades' for me that does is all very well for me.)
- SV811-10 (Warmer, lusher, thicker, mo' bass, fun to play these at louder levels. Not as quiet in terms of hum/microphonics, but
not terrible).
This palette is pleasing to my palate, and does not ship on a pallet (but it should)... er, never mind :duh: :thumb:
On another note:
I hope you all enjoyed / will enjoy your holidays (Hanukkah, Solstice, Christmas, Newtonmas, Festivus, Kwanzaa, ...etc.)
and may it be filled with a wide variety of music! :singing:
Vinnie
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Hi and Happy holidays to everyone
I want to thank Vinnie for a great product he makes and excellent customer service
Right now I have LIO DHT Pre and DAC 2.0 with stock tubes
I know there are here several users from NYC who have SV811-10 tubes so if anyone can let me borrow them, while they are enjoying something much better, please send me a message. Yes I have heard them during last year tour but back then I had no DAC 2.0 and wasn't using right playback software cause one of them was not available yet, even in the early buggy form, and I was afraid to have problems with the other one since it was looking to complicated. But now I use Roon and want to try SV811-10 again so I can give them proper judgment and decide if I should upgrade
Thanks
Oleg
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Vinnie, Hope you are enjoying the holidays with family...as others wrote & I'm sure many feel, thank you for bringing joyous audible times into our homes by way of LIO w/ new DAC 2.0
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Hi and Happy holidays to everyone
I want to thank Vinnie for a great product he makes and excellent customer service
Right now I have LIO DHT Pre and DAC 2.0 with stock tubes
I know there are here several users from NYC who have SV811-10 tubes so if anyone can let me borrow them, while they are enjoying something much better, please send me a message. Yes I have heard them during last year tour but back then I had no DAC 2.0 and wasn't using right playback software cause one of them was not available yet, even in the early buggy form, and I was afraid to have problems with the other one since it was looking to complicated. But now I use Roon and want to try SV811-10 again so I can give them proper judgment and decide if I should upgrade
Thanks
Oleg
Hi Oleg,
Happy Holidays!
Thank you for your kind words.
Please email me right after the new year. I have a spare pair that I can let you borrow, and they
will be naturally cryo'd if the weather remains this cold! :green:
Vinnie, Hope you are enjoying the holidays with family...as others wrote & I'm sure many feel, thank you for bringing joyous audible times into our homes by way of LIO w/ new DAC 2.0
Happy Holidays, Larry! I am very thankful to you and all my customers. notworthy:
Is this how your winter looks like in Kyoto now? :eyebrows:
(https://www.anepiceducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/740-kyoto-kinkakuji.jpg)
Vinnie
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Vinnie HNY!... not quite yet this year. Here's how it looked last night & right now from living room window.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173724)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173726)
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Bought the Svetlanas yesterday, awaiting them and am pretty excited!
Will keep you posted.
-
Maybe I can ask for the KR-PX4s as a joint birthday present from my wife and parents and in-laws!
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Maybe I can ask for the KR-PX4s as a joint birthday present from my wife and parents and in-laws!
Hi matthew,
Why not? :green: :thumb:
Hi Larry,
Very nice living room views. Perfect for listening - day and night. :)
Vinnie
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Ok Svetlanas in the house. Two questions:
1) is the voltage setting the same as the 2A3s?
2) the top piece of the filament infrastructure is rattling/loose. Problem or not?
https://imgur.com/gallery/QRL4V
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Ok Svetlanas in the house. Two questions:
1) is the voltage setting the same as the 2A3s?
2) the top piece of the filament infrastructure is rattling/loose. Problem or not?
Hi MP,
1) You can use the same setting as the 2A3s (2.5V) for the SV811-10s. They are a little less noisy this way and output
less heat.
2) It should be Ok if it is not broken loose, but if there is a problem, you'll hear it.
https://imgur.com/gallery/QRL4V
Looks good - now go light 'em up! :idea: :idea:
Vinnie
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A little over a month later after posting my impressions of the TAK TA-300B (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.msg1651853#msg1651853 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.msg1651853#msg1651853)) my impressions have not changed about them. They still are my favorite with LIO DHT PRE, but I also continue to spend much time listening with the KR PX-4's and enjoying every minute of it!
Have any LIO DHT PRE users tried any other DHT's that have not been discussed much on the VR forum?
Thanks,
Vinnie
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What's the next step up from Svetlanas in terms of pricing? They ran me about $85 each. A matched set of PX25s on ebay runs about $800! ouch.
Any recommendations? I have the stock 2A3s from EH, and was not a big fan of the Cunninghams. My next gut reaction is to try the Gold Lions.
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Only having the KR PX-4’s for a few months now, I certainly haven’t made the significant jump up to the TAK 300b’s yet!
Others may disagree, with system synergy and preferences, but if you can’t/don’t want to yet jump to the PX-4’s, IMO the stock EH 2A3’s are the ones... Maybe there is a more afrdable 300b out there that will match well along side the stock tubes for price and performance...but it’s either stock or jump up to KR or TAK if ya ask me. YMMV
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Again, I'm not using LIO - my experience is with a Lampi Big 7 DHT DAC instead. BUT I would think a lot of relative tube sounds would translate to LIO DHT impressions as well.
Early on, I tried a range of different tube types - all cheaper and used, loaned from friends. It turned out 300B offered the best overall synergy in my system - and the tubes that did it for me were new stock Gold Lion 300B's. From there, I went up in price with 300B's and eventually lucked out finding a $700 used pair of Tak's.
That said, there have been times in the past few years with the Tak's that I was feeling they were too much of a good thing. That my system was getting overly warm/thick, and I was tempted by some more linear tubes. In those times, I've been able to try some KR (242's I think?) and Lampi Anniversary EML Globe 45's. I own the Lampi 45's still, but they're just not quite in the same league as the Tak's, so I usually find my way back to them fairly shortly and try tweaking other parts of the system to achieve synergy again. I can usually figure something out.
But I guess I started this post because I wanted to mention the Gold Lion 300B's as a more affordable 300B option for those that want to try the 300B tube type. It's not as refined as those up the food chain, but it gives you a good idea what the 300B sound does.
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I am running the Elrog 300b, I have had the DHT Pre for a month. The only other tubes I have heard in the DHT LIO were the EH 2A3s that came with it and an old pair of JJ 2A3s. I ran both of the 2A3s for such a short period that I can't report anything useful regarding their sound, I will play with alternate tubes when I have had more time with the LIO and DHT Pre. What I can add is that I am really enjoying the Elrogs. It was an easy decision between the tubes I have heard, but to be fair, the Elrogs have been broken in for some time, (they are what I was running in my Bottlehead Kaiju before getting the LIO), the EHs had less than 8 hours on them, the JJs were well broken in, but haven't been played for several years and are possibly worn out. The Elrogs sound great. They have great clarity and tone, I would call the bass balanced. I wasn't able to hear the Elrogs at their best driving my current speakers when in the Kaiju, in the Bottlehead they output about 5 watts and I needed a little more power than that, the LIO remedied that issue.
I will try to do some comparisons of different tubes after I live with this combo for a while, for now I am very happy camper.
Best,
Ed
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I still have never heard any 300b tube,that has what i consider realistic bass!
I really like the kr px4,for its tight "solid" bass you notice,this when playing hard hitting rock and roll.
Im wondering if there is a 300b out there that can deliver "real bass"
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Only having the KR PX-4’s for a few months now, I certainly haven’t made the significant jump up to the TAK 300b’s yet!
Others may disagree, with system synergy and preferences, but if you can’t/don’t want to yet jump to the PX-4’s, IMO the stock EH 2A3’s are the ones... Maybe there is a more afrdable 300b out there that will match well along side the stock tubes for price and performance...but it’s either stock or jump up to KR or TAK if ya ask me. YMMV
I tend to agree with jriggy here, based on my own experiences tube rolling.
Out of all the lower-cost tubes (price range: $100 - $200 per tube), the stock EH 2A3 gold-grid were the best ones that I found. They are very linear, extended, quiet (internally, they are well-shielded to they don't pick on 50/60Hz hum in the air), and a great place to start (or even finish) with your LIO DHT PRE.
[Even if the EH 2A3 Gold Grid was the only tube that worked with LIO DHT PRE, I'd take it any day over the AVC/Tubestage, no matter what 6922 variant was used. In the LIO DHT PRE circuit, it just goes places that the 9-pin tubes never can, unfortunately.]
There are many others to try in that price range (e.g. Gold Lion 300B, EH makes a 300B gold grid, Svetlana SV811, and various NOS finds on ebay). They are all different flavors, but in terms of total performance, I found there are generally in the same league.
Once you jump to some of the pricier models discussed here (KR PX-4 & TAK TA300B are the two best examples that I know of at this time), the increase in performance becomes much more substantial.
Again, I'm not using LIO - my experience is with a Lampi Big 7 DHT DAC instead.
...That said, there have been times in the past few years with the Tak's that I was feeling they were too much of a good thing. That my system was getting overly warm/thick, and I was tempted by some more linear tubes.
This brings up a good point, genjamon - the circuit you use a DHT in will most likely have even more of a influence over what you hear than the tube itself. I am sure the Lampi circuit is much different than LIO DHT PRE (even though they both can use some of the same tubes), so it is no wonder that you're findings with the TAK TA300B and them being "overly warm/thick" at times does not mirror mine at all.
I am running the Elrog 300b, I have had the DHT Pre for a month.
I will try to do some comparisons of different tubes after I live with this combo for a while, for now I am very happy camper.
Thanks for posting, Ed! I'm keen to try that Elrog 300B's (I was just speaking to the USA importer about it today, and he said Elrog builds-to-order and it takes time to get some in stock, but he's going to let me try a pair when available). I'm glad you are enjoying
it!
I still have never heard any 300b tube,that has what i consider realistic bass!
I really like the kr px4,for its tight "solid" bass you notice,this when playing hard hitting rock and roll.
Im wondering if there is a 300b out there that can deliver "real bass"
Hi decur,
I'll bring the TAK 300B to AXPONA (along with the KR PX-4). I think you'll be very surprised. The bass
is very good on the TAK 300B, as is everything else. You'll be the judge. :wink:
Vinnie
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Thanks Vinnie,
Looking forward to hearing the taks,especially with that green vinyl album of yours,
ZZ Top tres hombres
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Has anyone tried the Emission Labs PX4 tubes? I wonder how they compare to the much lauded KR Audio PX4.
I contacted Tubesusa.com, but they are not carrying KR Audio anymore.
I will have my DHT coming in a few weeks and want to be prepared. :D
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Kr px4 can be purchased at best300b.com
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I looked over the most recent threads and decided this is likely the best place to post this. I purchased a LIO DHT about a month ago over several other highly regarded preamps. I was wondering if any owners with the DHT option have tried Herbie’s Audio Lab Ultrasonic Rx-50 tube dampers on their 2A3 tubes and, if so, what was the difference they brought about.
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i've heard good things about the KR PX-4 but has anyone tried the KR 300B?
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i've heard good things about the KR PX-4 but has anyone tried the KR 300B?
Hi jhrlrd,
I am only familiar with the KR PX-4, but I plan to attend the Munich Show in May and will meet with KR Audio,
and see if I can get a few of their other DHT's (like their 300B) to evaluate.
Once I do, I'll post my findings.
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Thanks Vinnie, I didn't know about the KR 300b until I saw an advertisement for it the other day. A little less expensive than the Tak 300bs.
I don't even have my used DHT yet and I'm already planning tubes to try!
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An update on the Elrog 300Bs, I have noticed that they can ring, I believe this is what is considered to be microphonic. The ringining is most noticeable when you stop a loud passage. I may try a cover over the tubes to see if that makes any difference. Just wanted to throw this out there for anyone who may be considering the Elrog.
Best,
Ed
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Regarding KR, I have their PX-4 and 45. Both are excellent build quality. The PX-4, as many have mentioned before do about everything well with little noise or hum. They are reference tubes in my mind.
The 45s are much warmer with better base extension and bit more noise and hum than PX-4, but nowhere near as noisy as the EML 45-mesh I have. The KR-45 are comparable to the RCA circa 1950 NOS I have in sound and noise. I prefer the KR 45 sound and they are less noisy
Someday will write up a more detailed comparison of KR PX-4 and the assortments of the 45s I have
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I have a friend who brought a pair of Elrogs 300B, a first batch, which have reported to be flawed but still working. These Elrog shines on the LIO, There is more 3d presence and the sound stage opens up a little bit more. Also Vocals are more fleshed. I could not imagine something better than the TAKS in my system until now. I also replaced the LIO fuses with SR blue which also slightly improve the bass and high extensions.
My question to Vinnie, based on my research of prior Elrogs failures: Is the current of LIO DHT Power Supply limited with soft start at Power up, or if you have implemented some sort of initial current limiting at start up?
I believe that above may help with longer tubes life, specially the Elrogs.
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Hope the new Elrogs rev were built to last from not very pleasant prior reports!
-
I don't even have my used DHT yet and I'm already planning tubes to try!
Hi jhrlrd,
That's the spirit! 8) :lol:
An update on the Elrog 300Bs, I have noticed that they can ring, I believe this is what is considered to be microphonic. The ringining is most noticeable when you stop a loud passage. I may try a cover over the tubes to see if that makes any difference. Just wanted to throw this out there for anyone who may be considering the Elrog.
Best,
Ed
Hi Ed,
Yes, sounds like microphonics. Some DHT's are definitely more microphonic than others. Thanks for the info.
Regarding KR, I have their PX-4 and 45. Both are excellent build quality. The PX-4, as many have mentioned before do about everything well with little noise or hum. They are reference tubes in my mind.
The 45s are much warmer with better base extension and bit more noise and hum than PX-4, but nowhere near as noisy as the EML 45-mesh I have. The KR-45 are comparable to the RCA circa 1950 NOS I have in sound and noise. I prefer the KR 45 sound and they are less noisy
Someday will write up a more detailed comparison of KR PX-4 and the assortments of the 45s I have
Hi CCJ,
Thank you for posting about the KR 45's! Besides lower hum/noise, do you find anything else sonically that you prefer with the KR PX4 compared to the KR 45? Or do you prefer the KR 45 overall?
My question to Vinnie, based on my research of prior Elrogs failures: Is the current of LIO DHT Power Supply limited with soft start at Power up, or if you have implemented some sort of initial current limiting at start up?
Hi czubero,
Thanks for sharing your impressions of the Elrog 300B! This might be the DHT that I want to try next, especially since you prefer them to the TAK TA-300B in your LIO (an extremely formidable opponent! :o).
LIO DHT PRE indeed has a soft-start circuit (in-rush current limiting for the cathodes), and is very kind to DHTs in general because we are using them in the linestage and NOT powering speakers, so they don't run nearly as hot as in a SET output stage. In fact, I really cannot think of any other circuit out there that you will get more life out of your DHT's than LIO DHT PRE. So when you get your new pair of ELROG 300B, you can expect them to last a very long time (yes, assuming they were manufactured well).
BTW - have you experienced any of the microphonics that ebag4 mentioned above with his ELROG 300B?
Thanks
Vinnie
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Vinnie, Not at all, but will test at higher volumes and without the isolation foots.
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Can anyone generalize that the 45's are more authoritative, with more solid tighter bass than the 300B or 2A3?
or is it brand dependent?
-
Can anyone generalize that the 45's are more authoritative, with more solid tighter bass than the 300B or 2A3?
or is it brand dependent?
In a power amp position or in a DAC?
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Can anyone generalize that the 45's are more authoritative, with more solid tighter bass than the 300B or 2A3?
or is it brand dependent?
In a power amp position or in a DAC?
Hi jhrlrd,
I'm going to infer that since you posted on this forum, you are asking about such tubes as used in the LIO DHT PRE. :wink:
I would not generalize by saying that 45's have a tighter bass than the 300B or 2A3. It really depends
on the make/model of the tube. And if they are used tubes, their age will come into play as well (and how they
were treated, the circuit they were used in, etc).
Also - the circuit topology that the tube is used in will most certainly come into play, as well as the parts of that circuit.
Even the load of the following stage will have some influence over the overall sound (e.g. driving a power amp with a 10k input impedance vs. one with a 100k input impedance).
Everything matters - even the type of matter matters, and in general, maybe it is best to leave the generalizations to the generals? :green: (sorry - that was really bad but I couldn't resist!)
Cheers!
Vinnie
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Thanks Vinnie, yes in the LIO DHT
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I have an opportunity to purchase a new pair of Electro Harmonix 300b for
Around $200. Can anyone say they are better than the EH 2A3 that
Come with the LIO?
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The Vinnie tubes are tested before shipping to custumer.
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I have an opportunity to purchase a new pair of Electro Harmonix 300b for
Around $200. Can anyone say they are better than the EH 300B that
Come with the LIO?
The stock tubes are EH 2A3's.
-
I realize what the stock tubes are. it was a typo.
Is it a waste of $200 to try the EH 300b ?
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I realize what the stock tubes are.
Is it a waste of $200 to try the EH 300b ?
He mean say 2A3 is a 2.5V tube and 300B is a 5V tube.
Not sure if the equip have a 2.5/5V option.
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He mean say 2A3 is a 2.5V tube and 300B is a 5V tube.
Not sure if the equip have a 2.5/5V option.
Yes it does
-
Just see in the site:
Proprietary slide-switch “convertible” design compatible with: 2A3 / 45, 300B, PX4 / PX25, 101D / 205D
:thumb:
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I realize what the stock tubes are.
Is it a waste of $200 to try the EH 300b ?
Hi jhrlrd,
It would only be a waste of money if you didn't like the sound of the EH 300B. It is really a matter of taste
and system synergy.
If I was in your position, I'd probably just save up for a set of KR PX4's 8)
Best regards,
Vinnie
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will do, thanks Vinnie
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Hello everyone,
Some advice please: I'm about to receive my upgraded Lio with the DHT and after reading all the KR PX4 positive reviews I contacted best300b.com to order a pair. They replied commenting that there is an updated version called Riccardo Kron Limited Series which according to them it's better in "everyway" because of the following updates:
- Improved structure support in the least vibrating glass points with double mica
- Ceramic bases
- Gold plated base pins
- Triple thickness glass
- Doubled cooling radiation surface for anode cooling
- Barium heaters that run colder and have better emission
- Closer tolerance matching
- 9th degree of vacuum for extended longevity[/li][/list]
All of these for an extra +500USD. Have any of you had the opportunity to try this updated version? In case not, do you think these list of improvements would justify the additional cost?
Many thanks for the advise!
Lutry
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Hi lutry,
I have not yet listened to this special edition KR Audio "Riccardo Kron Limited Series" PX4 (and I'm not sure if anyone
who owns LIO DHT PRE has).
At some point I hopefully will and then I'll report back.
I'm not sure if the added measures they took for added longevity will matter much in LIO DHT PRE, as used in the preamp
it is not being driver hard at all (compared to if it was used in a power output stage). But the ceramic bases, thicker glass,
and Barium heaters might have some change in how they sound compared to the standard KR PX4.
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Hi Lutry,
Do you mind ask they how much is the Triple thickness glass?
SMT with these upgrades KR do for mod 500 bucks/each $1000 pair will reduce vibrations and microphony, unless Barium heaters that run colder and have better emission will lasts much more years, for this price they should.
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Does anyone have suggestions for US vendors to buy the KR PX4s from?
Also are they better with or without tube dampers?
Thanks!
Margot
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Overseas purchase may be the only option —dont know...
But I can tell you that I much preferred them without tube dampeners in the LIO.
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Does anyone have suggestions for US vendors to buy the KR PX4s from?
Also are they better with or without tube dampers?
Hi Margot,
Ordering from www.best300b.com in Poland has been a good experience so far. If they have 'em in
stock, they should be fairly quick to ship to the USA.
I would run them w/o the dampers, but if you already have dampers that fit, then give 'em a try.
Vinnie
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Great, Vinnie. Thank you! Excited to try them.
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This article discusses several KR Audio DHTs that may be worth investigating. http://hifiknights.com/reviews/sources/lampizator-pacific-the-glassy-story/
I've been using the standard KR PX4s in my LIO, and prefer this tube to the stock tubes or EML Mesh Plate 300Bs I've tried. This article compares the new, limited edition KR PX4s with limited edition KR 300Bs and a few other tubes, all in a Lampizator DAC. The comparison also includes a tube I haven't previously heard about, a KR T-100 . . . and the author seems to prefer it to the others. I have a couple of questions: 1) Has anyone compared any of these tubes in the LIO, and 2) Vinnie - Is the T-100 suitable for use in the DHT module?
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Hi Timbana,
I have not tested the KR T-100 in the LIO DHT PRE or L2 Signature Preamp yet.
The filament requirement of 5V, 2A is no problem. You would use the 5V setting on the filament switches.
Looking at the data of this tube on the KR site, it appears it should work fine. But I don't want to recommend
it until I first test it on the bench and carefully listen to it.
1) Has anyone compared any of these tubes in the LIO
This is a good way to ask the question, because feedback from those who heard these tubes in a different component
(e.g. Lampi dac) may not be helpful in detailing how they compare in a different circuit such as the LIO DHT PRE, and
vice versa.
I'll be doing more DHT comparisons this fall, and plan to bring a few different ones to RMAF in October.
Vinnie
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So,
Im a huge kr px4 fan,wow what a great read on the kr t100! This tube sounds like something i would really enjoy.
Hmmmm
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So,
Im a huge kr px4 fan,wow what a great read on the kr t100! This tube sounds like something i would really enjoy.
Hmmmm
Hi decur,
Me, too! :wink:
Based on its data, the KR T-100 it should work fine. Not sure about hum pickup, but since you are planning to upgrade to the L2 Preamp,
hum is not an issue with any of the DHTs I've tried so far in the new L2 circuit.
Even the Psvane WE 101 replicas are quiet in the L2 Preamp (and they had the worse hum in the DHT PRE out of all the tubes I tried).
Vinnie
-
I should have a matched pair of KR T100 to begin evaluating next weekend...
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1579/3523/products/39_KR_T-100_345x550.jpg?v=1516921613)
These are big boys! :idea:
Vinnie
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Looking forward to hearing them vinnie
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Yes, following this with interest! Would love to know how they work in the LIO as compared to KR PX-4 Thank you, Vinnie! Cheers, Margot
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Yes, following this with interest! Would love to know how they work in the LIO as compared to KR PX-4 Thank you, Vinnie! Cheers, Margot
All,
:idea: They have arrived! :idea:
The KR T-100s are nearly 7 inches tall (not including the pins) and 2.3" diameter! :o
I can't wait to give them a listen over the weekend.
More soon...
Vinnie
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All,
:idea: They have arrived! :idea:
The KR T-100s are nearly 7 inches tall (not including the pins) and 2.3" diameter! :o
I can't wait to give them a listen over the weekend.
More soon...
Vinnie
. . . and I can't wait to hear how they compare to the KR PX4s
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Yeah,I’m wondering too?
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Yeah,I’m wondering too?
All,
I have been so insanely busy that so far, I was only able so far to test the KR T-100 tubes in the L2 Preamp prototype unit.
They sounded superb and I'll be going into more details later (sorry, but I have so much on my plate right now), but I'm not sure yet how they will work with LIO DHT PRE. The DHT circuit in LIO DHT PRE vs L2 Preamp is quite a bit different, so
I can't recommend them for LIO DHT PRE *yet* ... but hopefully soon.
Actually, I don't have a LIO DHT PRE on hand... all sold out and won't be able to get to building one for a week or two. Sorry
for the delay. :duh:
Thanks,
Vinnie
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I've been running the KR 300B (straight bottle version) in my LIO DHT, and quite happy with the results, nothing 'wrong' with them.
Recently bought a pair of KR PX4. The first thing I noticed about the PX4 is it seems to have
a higher output compared to the KR 300B. I had to turn the volume down a couple notches to equal the sound level
produced by the 300Bs.
After matching levels, I still perceive the PX4 to have a "stronger" presentation, more presence or fleshed out if you will.
Tonally and spatially about the same as the 300B, in my system as least.
The bass seems to have slightly more power behind it, however that may be a function of the tube producing more output, I don't know.
I think I'll run the PX4 for a month, then put the 300Bs back in and see if anything's missing...
Interested in trying the TAKs, but I'm guessing the difference would be subtle, and not sure if it would be worth triple the cake.
However, If they did add gobs of depth, or separation, or soundstage width, I would deem them worth it.
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Hi jhrlrd,
Thanks for your post.
I also have a new pair of KR 300Bs that I'd like to try out soon.
..PX4 to have a "stronger" presentation, more presence or fleshed out if you will. Tonally and spatially about the same as the 300B, in my system as least. The bass seems to have slightly more power behind it, however that may be a function of the tube producing more output, I don't know. I think I'll run the PX4 for a month, then put the 300Bs back in and see if anything's missing...
Those are the areas where the PX4 excels.
Interested in trying the TAKs, but I'm guessing the difference would be subtle, and not sure if it would be worth triple the cake.
See: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.msg1651853#msg1651853 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.msg1651853#msg1651853)
More soon enough...
Vinnie
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Anyone know how much the KR PX4 has been selling for recently? best300b website is currently unavailable.
I want to sell a used (50hrs) pair, is $650 a good price??
TIA,
Steve
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I paid $500 for mine, and they weren't used much.
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500 is a really good price. I paid 650.
-
best300b website is currently unavailable.
Hi SteveKi,
I was able to view their site. Standard KR PX-4's are selling for 319 Euro each (so about $750 / pair + shipping).
Vinnie
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Hi SteveKi,
I was able to view their site. Standard KR PX-4's are selling for 319 Euro each (so about $750 / pair + shipping).
Vinnie
This site? http://www.best300b.com/
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This site? http://www.best300b.com/
Hi Steve,
Yes, that's the site
Vinnie
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All,
These evening I went to finally try the KR T100 in the LIO DHT PRE, and.... and....
they don't even fit because their base is too large for the top panel opening! :duh: :oops:
These T100s are quite larger than the 300B, PX4, SV811 tubes. Their base has a approx. 1.85" diameter
and they are 7 inches tall (not including the pins). So even though they have the same UX-4 pin-out,
they are big boys. The glass diameter is 2.3 inches.
I did briefly remove the LIO top panel and plugged them and confirmed that they do seem to work
fine with LIO DHT PRE circuit, but I did not get into doing comparisons between them and the KR PX4 - which
we all know fits fine and sounds lovely. :inlove:
When I first received my KR T100s (before RMAF, when I was finalizing the L2 Signature Preamp design and getting
it into production), they fit into the L2 without any issues because the opening on the top is 2.5" diameter as it was designed
to have about 1/3 - 1/2 of the tube coming out from the inside the unit. So being as busy as I was, it didn't even cross
my mind that the T100's larger bass would not fit into the LIO top panel opening.
Well, the Elrog 300Bs that are coming next week should fit fine in LIO and we'll see how they sound! :thumb:
Vinnie
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This site? http://www.best300b.com/
This site was gone?
Sorry, this shop is currently unavailable.
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I got the same message, but found this side door...
https://shop.best300b.com/collections/tubes
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Oh nice, thanks Bro :thumb:
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Dear Vinnie-
Many, many thanks for checking this out! And it definitely simplifies the decision. I'll wait to hear what you think of the Elrog 300 bs before pulling the trigger on the KR Px-4.
cheers,
Margot
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Takatsuki TA-300B
I installed a pair of Takatsukis in my LIO a few weeks ago. Listening to them after a few days of burn in, I was immediately impressed by the improvement they provide relative to the KR PX4s I was previously using. I had settled on the PX4s after comparing them with a couple of other options and believe they are a significant upgrade to the stock tubes and others I tried. Since installing the TAKs, I've enjoyed them so much that I hadn't completed the "shoot-off" with the PX-4s until today. After listening for a while with the PX-4s in my LIO, then going back to the TAKs, I can say with confidence that the TAKs are significantly better (in my system, in my room).
Breaking "significantly better" down into specific sonic qualities, the TAKs: 1) provide a more convincing illusion of reality, 2) simultaneously sound more "calm" or "relaxed" while providing improved detail, 3) make individual voices and instruments sound more tangible, solid and focused; in contrast, when paying attention to individual voices or instruments (throughout the frequency spectrum) with the PX-4s in the circuit, they sound relatively "fuzzy" or "smeared", 4) infuse music with a sense of air and liveliness . . . without any high frequency emphasis that I could detect . . . even crunchy low bass notes sound nimble and lively, . . . . which brings me to 5) provide significantly better bass, with the fundamentals and overtones sounding perfectly integrated and realistic. My enjoyment of the PX-4s lower frequencies was a primary reason I prefer them to others I had previously tried, but IMO the TAKs' bass is significantly better.
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Interesting! Thanks for sharing that. What is the difference in price?
cheers,
Margot
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The TAKs are pretty pricey: $2500 retail, but Parts Connexion has them for $1600 . . . so, they are approx. $600 more than the KR PX-4s . . . which caused me to hesitate for many months before finally taking the plunge for the TAKs. I had seen so many positive online comments about the TAKs that I figured they must be good tubes, but I was put off by the price . . . and the uncertainty as to whether they would be a good match for the LIO. Once Vinnie gave them his "seal of approval" I decided to give them a try. Now, having heard them, I think I would pay full retail for a pair (if I had to) because I wouldn't want to "settle" for something else. The KR PX-4s are good tubes, and work well in the LIO, but the TAKs take it up to another level IMO.
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Well that is more than I ever thought I would spend on a pair of tubes, but you have me pretty tempted. I'll think on it. Many thanks!!!
cheers, Margot
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Hi Timbana,
Thank you for posting your impressions of your TAK TA300Bs, and I'm really glad you are enjoying them even more than your KR PX4 in your LIO DHT PRE.
They are pricey, but $1600 is a very good price on a pair!
I would actually pay full retail for them if I had to. And DHT's in the LIO DHT PRE will last many, many years...
I have Elrog 300Bs coming this week and will be testing them in the LIO DHT PRE and in the L2 Signature Preamp. 8)
Thanks again,
Vinnie
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The TAKs are pretty pricey: $2500 retail, but Parts Connexion has them for $1600 . . . so, they are approx. $600 more than the KR PX-4s . . . which caused me to hesitate for many months before finally taking the plunge for the TAKs. I had seen so many positive online comments about the TAKs that I figured they must be good tubes, but I was put off by the price . . . and the uncertainty as to whether they would be a good match for the LIO. Once Vinnie gave them his "seal of approval" I decided to give them a try. Now, having heard them, I think I would pay full retail for a pair (if I had to) because I wouldn't want to "settle" for something else. The KR PX-4s are good tubes, and work well in the LIO, but the TAKs take it up to another level IMO.
Hi Timbana,
After reading your shoot-off comments between the Takatsuki TA-300Bs and KR PX4s, I was convinced that I had to get my hands on the TAKs instead of the KR PX4s for my LIO DHT. I was blown away by the initial listening with the TAKs onboard, there was this magic about the Japanese made tubes which made the imaginary 3D soundstage infront so real and lively. I sweared I could hear improved details of the individual voices and instruments at least in my LIO DHT system and in my room. Thanks to Timbaba for sharing with us your impressions of the Takatsuki TA-300Bs and yes, I would also pay in full retail price for a pair if I had to.
Also thanks to Vinnie for your advice on setting the 3 switches on the LIO DHT in your email reply.
Finally, wishing all a Happy Thanksgiving Day....
Terence
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Thanks to Vinnie I got another chance to try Svetlana SV810 tubes with my LIO and now can definitely say that they are improvement over the 2A3. Especially for those who can't spend arm and leg for more expensive tubes and want deeper bass with more body should really consider SV810. Be aware that I'm using highly modified HD800 instead of speakers so your mileage would be completely different. I also heard TAK300B with the new L2 system and they definitely had a great sound with Harberth 40.2s and P3ESR at NYAS2018
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Hi Timbana,
After reading your shoot-off comments between the Takatsuki TA-300Bs and KR PX4s, I was convinced that I had to get my hands on the TAKs instead of the KR PX4s for my LIO DHT. I was blown away by the initial listening with the TAKs onboard, there was this magic about the Japanese made tubes which made the imaginary 3D soundstage infront so real and lively. I sweared I could hear improved details of the individual voices and instruments at least in my LIO DHT system and in my room. Thanks to Timbaba for sharing with us your impressions of the Takatsuki TA-300Bs and yes, I would also pay in full retail price for a pair if I had to.
Also thanks to Vinnie for your advice on setting the 3 switches on the LIO DHT in your email reply.
Finally, wishing all a Happy Thanksgiving Day....
Terence
Hi Terence,
I'm glad my post was helpful and that you're enjoying the TAKs
Charlie
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Hi Terence and Timbana,
The TAK TA300Bs really are something special (I love them in the LIO DHT PRE, and in the L2 Signature Preamplifier). :drool:
Glad you both are also enjoying them.
Hi olegausany,
The SV811-10 has more bass and "thicker" midrange, and more relaxed top end. With certain speakers and headphones, they
have a nice synergy. I can see how they are a good match with the HD800 headphones.
---
Regarding the ELROG 300B, they are currently with an L2 Preamp that out for review (also has the stock EH300B Gold Grid). From the time I had with them in the L2 and LIO DHT PRE, they seemed to have a sound signature that resembled a mix of the KR PX-4 and SV811-10. Keep in mind that I did not have much more than 25 hours of burn-in on them. So I'll have to wait a bit until I get them back before I spend more time with them, but there were sounding very nice!
Vinnie
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Did anyone get in on the Western Electric 300B preorder? I'll be curious to see how these compare to the Takatsuki 300Bs.
-
I have heard the “original” w.e. 300b’s and it’s midrange is in a class of its own!
I’m very interested in getting a pair of these for my L2 pre amp.
I’m waiting to hear feedback of this new production run before I buy.
FYI,the chineese clones out there sound nothing like the originals
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I, too pre-ordered the new WE 300b. I have not made the plunge for the TAK, but have the KR balloon and Elrog and keen to compare them with the WE in my LIO-DHT
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I, too pre-ordered the new WE 300b. I have not made the plunge for the TAK, but have the KR balloon and Elrog and keen to compare them with the WE in my LIO-DHT
Hi CCJ,
Keep us posted when you try the new WE300B with your LIO DHT PRE. Thanks!
I have heard the “original” w.e. 300b’s and it’s midrange is in a class of its own!
I’m very interested in getting a pair of these for my L2 pre amp.
I’m waiting to hear feedback of this new production run before I buy.
FYI,the chineese clones out there sound nothing like the originals
Hi decur,
I'm also interested in hearing them. I believe they are $1500/pair? This is right around what
Parts Connexion charges for a new pair of the TAK TA300B, so it will be interesting to see which one
comes out on top (if any)?
Vinnie
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Looks like Best 300b has teamed up to make a new limited version of the KR PX-4 (and a 300b).
The Riccardo Kron Limited Series:
https://best300b-com.myshopify.com/collections/riccardo-kron-limited-series (https://best300b-com.myshopify.com/collections/riccardo-kron-limited-series)
I wonder how they compar to the standard PX-4. Thicker glass is one improvement.
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For sourcing Takatsuki 300B email: audio@amtrans.co.jp
The exchange rate is really good now. I think $1200 pair recently.
For those who are interested David Beetles at Hammertone Audio purchased 6 tubes on my recommendations. Maybe 50 hours on them max. He did not like them over the standard Kron 300b. Willing to sell.
I love the Kron. I am on the sidelines re the WE re-issue until others have heard them. Rare earth tube pricing for me is a risk.
My system used to have 12 x 300b in play! Now down to 4 in my preamp, since I sold my amps. Match quad--I seek out a match 6 for backup. WE upcharge for matching is significant, more so for multiple sets.
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Looks like Best 300b has teamed up to make a new limited version of the KR PX-4 (and a 300b).
The Riccardo Kron Limited Series:
https://best300b-com.myshopify.com/collections/riccardo-kron-limited-series (https://best300b-com.myshopify.com/collections/riccardo-kron-limited-series)
I wonder how they compar to the standard PX-4. Thicker glass is one improvement.
Hi jriggy,
If you want a KR PX-4 with a bit more top-end extension, and thicker glass (less microphonic), then check out the KR T-100.
It runs on the 5V setting and has the KR PX-4 bass and midrange, but more top-end detail and decay.
AC member "decur" is now using them in his L2 Preamplifier (he had the KR PX-4 previously) and they have become his favorite.
They might be yours as well :idea: :singing:
I have not tried the Riccardo Kron limited series or the new Western Electric WE-300B yet.
Hi ketcham,
Thanks for the info. $1200/pair for new Takatsuki TA-300B is amazing!
- Vinnie
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Well, I took the plunge too. I've only got about ten hours on my Takatsuki TA -300bs now. But still- WOW. I am hearing more detail, more immediacy, more presence, and experiencing more, well, emotional connection to the music.
I'm admiring the L2 from afar (it's gorgeous!), but still very, very happy with my LIO. Consider it the best audio purchase I ever made. And with these tubes, it's a whole other level.
Thanks again, Vinnie!
Margot
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Well, I took the plunge too. I've only got about ten hours on my Takatsuki TA -300bs now. But still- WOW. I am hearing more detail, more immediacy, more presence, and experiencing more, well, emotional connection to the music.
Hi Margot,
I'm happy to see that you are loving your TAK TA-300B's! They are incredibly good and should last many years in the DHT PRE circuit.
I'm admiring the L2 from afar (it's gorgeous!), but still very, very happy with my LIO. Consider it the best audio purchase I ever made. And with these tubes, it's a whole other level.
Awesome - and thank you!
In a few months I'll be posting about something "L2 related" that I believe will tempt many LIO customers! :shh: :wink:
Thanks again!
Vinnie
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Hi jriggy,
If you want a KR PX-4 with a bit more top-end extension, and thicker glass (less microphonic), then check out the KR T-100.
It runs on the 5V setting and has the KR PX-4 bass and midrange, but more top-end detail and decay.
AC member "decur" is now using them in his L2 Preamplifier (he had the KR PX-4 previously) and they have become his favorite.
They might be yours as well :idea: :singing:
I have not tried the Riccardo Kron limited series or the new Western Electric WE-300B yet.
Hi ketcham,
Thanks for the info. $1200/pair for new Takatsuki TA-300B is amazing!
- Vinnie
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Yes,the kr t100 is trulY an upgraded px4,exact same sound signature,same great mids,bass,highs,but more refined,better top end,and MUCH quieter,dead dead dead silent,with no microphonics at all.
They work very well in the L2 preamp circuit.
I highly recommend,especially if you like the kr px4 sound.....
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Hiya.
Working up my review on Vinnie's L2 DHT linestage, I would like to invite those who already have theirs to share their experiences relative to tube brand and tube type rolling. I'm only listening to the stock ElectroHarmonix GOld 300B and Vinnie's personal pair of Takatsuki 300B. I'd like to provide our readers with additional data points since that's part of the appeal of this component.
So... if you'd like to become part of my review by contributing some sonic observations on what your various tubes do by comparison (also list the rest of your system), have at it. I'll check here or you can email me directly at 6moons. Your comments will list by either your handle or your real name, whatever you decide to provide.
Cheers. :popcorn:
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Hi jriggy,
Hi ketcham,
Thanks for the info. $1200/pair for new Takatsuki TA-300B is amazing!
- Vinnie
I emailed the address, audio@amtrans.co.jp, inquiring on current pricing and warranty. I received a reply that their USA dealer is Jack Wu, at Woo Audio. Jack Wu also emailed me that they will have new tube stock in about 3 days. The Warranty is 1 year and shipping is free. The website link indicates $1995 for matched pair.
-
In a few months I'll be posting about something "L2 related" that I believe will tempt many LIO customers! :shh: :wink:
Thanks again!
Vinnie
Any update for us LIO customers? :D
Steve
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Hi Steve,
I am not ready to officially post about it yet (still working on the details and pricing), but everyone is welcome
to email me for 'preliminary' information.
Thanks,
Vinnie
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Any LIO DHT PRE owner here has a matched pair of the new Western Electric 300Bs from Rossville? Care to post your opinions on their sonic qualities in the LIO DHT PRE? :drool:
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Any LIO DHT PRE owner here has a matched pair of the new Western Electric 300Bs from Rossville? Care to post your opinions on their sonic qualities in the LIO DHT PRE? :drool:
Hi Terence T.,
Good question! I'm not even sure if they are shipping them yet (their website says "pre order").
I spoke with the company owner about getting a pair to use at Axpona, but he wasn't able to make it happen. Hopefully soon!
I do have a pair of new-in-box Western Electric WE-300B from 2006 (not the Rossville plant) that I am looking forward to listening to soon.
Vinnie
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Hi Vinnie,
It's a pity, if it is true that they are not shipping out the WE 300Bs yet! I sincerely hope that they will be able to do so from their Rossville factory soon.
I'm so glad to hear that you have a pair of WE 300Bs from 2006... :drool: Do post your views of the WE 300Bs in the L2 PRE and the LIO DHT PRE.
Anyway, where did you manage to get hold of them? Is it very expensive?
Terence
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Hi Vinnie,
It's a pity, if it is true that they are not shipping out the WE 300Bs yet! I sincerely hope that they will be able to do so from their Rossville factory soon.
I'm so glad to hear that you have a pair of WE 300Bs from 2006... :drool: Do post your views of the WE 300Bs in the L2 PRE and the LIO DHT PRE.
Anyway, where did you manage to get hold of them? Is it very expensive?
Terence
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Hi Vinnie,
It's a pity, if it is true that they are not shipping out the WE 300Bs yet! I sincerely hope that they will be able to do so from their Rossville factory soon.
I'm so glad to hear that you have a pair of WE 300Bs from 2006... :drool: Do post your views of the WE 300Bs in the L2 PRE and the LIO DHT PRE.
Anyway, where did you manage to get hold of them? Is it very expensive?
Terence
Hi Terence,
Hopefully what they are producing in Rossville will be shipping soon!
My new-in-box pair of WE300B from 2006 came from an L2 Signature Preamp customer in Europe.
We worked out a trade. Used ones seem to be more expensive on ebay than what they are charging
for the pre-order of new Rossville ones!
I also got a new pair of Elrog 300B.
I'll be gathering some more DHTs to add to my collection and will be testing / comparing.
If I can take a full day off from work just to spend the entire day listening, I'm sure I can pin down
how all the tubes compare. :singing:
Hopefully I will be able to this summer. There is so much on my plate right now...
Thanks,
Vinnie
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Any interest in reviving the tubes round the world project, only for the L2? I can assume the $2500 Japanese.tubes.won't be making the journey....:)
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Any interest in reviving the tubes round the world project, only for the L2? I can assume the $2500 Japanese.tubes.won't be making the journey....:)
Hi MP,
No, and the reason is because I'm currently loaning out tubes to L2i and L2i-SE reviewers, and this will continue to be the case for reviewers who request them (to make comparisons to the stock tubes). I don't have enough of a stash to send out more (and I need a few for the shows and demo units to dealers, etc).
It would be very cool if some of the companies selling these tubes offered such a program. :green:
Vinnie
-
Parts ConneXion pricing on the Takasuki,https://www.partsconnexion.com/TSUKI-81942.html, showing now at $1499.95. I am considering but will hold off and probably explore Uptown Audio EtherRegen and/or Sonore Optical Rendu. I have KR PX-4's now.
-
I would be willing to pony up for some of the tubes if we as a team could spread the cost. I'd have to take a look at the books but I bet I could donate $750 USD...
-
Just to emphasize, I'd like to fund a DHT lend-lease program with the most common DHTs that were used in the LIO, but are also used in the L2. Vinnie, if I foot the bill for the four most common tubes we used during the LIO DHT round-about and tried to bring in one or two higher-end tubes, would you be amenable to this? That way they would all come back to me and I'd take the financial risk. We could insure each transit of course. Food for thought :)
Thanks!
-
Hi MP,
A few things I should have added in my last post above:
1) Some of the better/best sounding tubes that I have tried are also the most expensive. For example:
- TAK TA-300B
- Western Electric WE-300B
- ELROG 300B
- KR T-100 (and PX4)
Are they worth their cost? I say YES! But I'm not sure anyone who owns these would want to send them along on a lend-lease program due to their high cost. Even with insurance, if there is damage, you still need to fight with UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc. to try and get your insurance payment. It can be a big hassle and risk to take.
2) The results that you will get with various DHTs in the LIO DHT PRE vs the L2 Signature Preamp (or L2-SE) may not be the same. Their circuits are different in a handful of ways, and the L2 grounding scheme takes care of any hum that certain DHTs had in LIO. For example, some DHTs such as the Psvane 101-D replica, which had excessive hum in the LIO DHT PRE, are hum-free in the L2.
So even with the same tubes, results are going to probably be different depending on if the tubes are used in the LIO DHT PRE circuit or the L2 Preamp / L2i-SE circuit. Just something to keep in mind...
3) Time - I am starting to ship L2i and L2i-SE units this coming week and I have a lot of orders from dealers, and LIO customers who are ready to trade-up. I also have two trade shows in November (DC, and NY), and other projects in the works. As a result, I unfortunately would not be able to help with running the tube loaner program.
Vinnie, if I foot the bill for the four most common tubes we used during the LIO DHT round-about and tried to bring in one or two higher-end tubes, would you be amenable to this? That way they would all come back to me and I'd take the financial risk. We could insure each transit of course.
If you want to run such a program, that is very generous of you! I'll leave that decision up to you. I am good with whatever you decide 8)
Thank you,
Vinnie
-
3) Time - I am starting to ship L2i and L2i-SE units this coming week and I have a lot of orders from dealers, and LIO customers who are ready to trade-up.
Vinnie
Vinnie,
The LIO trade-up program is good until December 31st?
Steve
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Vinnie,
The LIO trade-up program is good until December 31st?
Steve
Hi SteveKi,
Correct - Dec 31st, 2019 is the last day that we'll be accepting LIO trade-ups.
Due to the high demand right now, please make sure you contact me for lead-times. Once your order is placed, you may choose to wait to ship your LIO trade-in to me until when I am getting close to shipping your L2 component (so you will not be without your system for long).
This is always the busiest time of the year for me (Sept - Jan), but this year it is a lot more so than usual. :o
So thank you for all of your patience with me in terms of replying to emails, phone calls, and keeping up with the VR forum. :whip:
Vinnie
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Hi MP,
A few things I should have added in my last post above:
1) Some of the better/best sounding tubes that I have tried are also the most expensive. For example:
- TAK TA-300B
- Western Electric WE-300B
- ELROG 300B
- KR T-100 (and PX4)
Vinnie
I'm going to save up for these tubes over the next year or so, and have read the whole thread, but if you know of good deals please everyone pass along!
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I'm going to save up for these tubes over the next year or so, and have read the whole thread, but if you know of good deals please everyone pass along!
Check out Srajan’s extended L2 Signature Preamplifier review (with many tube descriptions/comparisons) on 6Moons, as well as the LV 300b vs. KR T-100 review on there, and also the DHT shoot-out *I think* on HiFi Knights but not sure on that.
With all these write ups you may be able to avoid buying all of them, if you know what you’re after.
Personally, I’m poised to purchase the T-100’s (to replace the PX4’s), to have along side the TAK’s... But wouldn’t mind hearing about a TAK vs. Living Voice if the info is out there.
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A new 300b replacement by Audio Note; the AN 4300E
https://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-uk-4300e-output-tube/ (https://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-uk-4300e-output-tube/)
“In my Audio Note (U.K.) Balanced Kegon amps, the AN 4300E’s are sonically superior to the Takatsuki 300B and for that matter the wide range of other new production 300B’s that I have tried over the years.”
Sounds interesting...
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Here's the next question: if one were buying higher end tubes, would it stand to reason to maybe have two different 300bs to demo and then maybe a third? So, in a perfect world, one set of Taks, one WE variety, and maybe the T100?
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Here's the next question: if one were buying higher end tubes, would it stand to reason to maybe have two different 300bs to demo and then maybe a third? So, in a perfect world, one set of Taks, one WE variety, and maybe the T100?
The Living Voice 300B's are excellent... very close to the original WE 300B sound... They are made by KR to Living Voice Kevin Scott's specifications... and built like tanks!
My $0.02,
Pete
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Ok good deal. Will look into them. Thanks! Btw the power cable came in the mail yesterday, thanks!
Hive mind: other than ebay, where are folks looking for NOS tubes?
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audioasylum.com
tubedepot.com
Usaudiomart.com
and right here on audiocircle.com
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The Living Voice 300B's are excellent... very close to the original WE 300B sound... They are made by KR to Living Voice Kevin Scott's specifications... and built like tanks!
My $0.02,
Pete
one of the US KR reps has these listed around $1500, does that sound right? Ouch. :)
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one of the US KR reps has these listed around $1500, does that sound right? Ouch. :)
Are those different from the KR 300b HP tubes? Or has anyone here tried the KR 300b HP?
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Don't know. Someone will be along shortly to elucidate.
Until then, what sayeth the hive on these? Never heard of them. Are they 2a3?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-2-Tube-800-GE-NIB-Rohren-Direct-Heated-Triode-Senderohren-Last-Pair/310211309637?hash=item483a08f045:m:muW21nd9iS3-xL-Uyp6q4tw&redirect=mobile
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Anyone interested in a pair of 300b tubes that cost more than a new L2iSE? :peek:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-engraved-base-300b-black-plate-late-1930-s-matched-pair
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Has anyone tried these tubes yet?
https://www.partsconnexion.com/STREASURE-73260.html
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Has anyone tried these tubes yet?
https://www.partsconnexion.com/STREASURE-73260.html
I saw them on Amazon. The Lampizator and Border Patrol experts feel they sound good when they're good, but they are bad when they are bad, ie extremely variable.
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I emailed with Partsconnexion on Friday and they said they will be getting more TAK TA-300B's in mid next week. Been driving myself crazy with curiosity about the Japanese tubes after reading everything here in AC and elsewhere on the web. I guess that would be a colossal jump from stock 2A3's to the TAK's
https://www.partsconnexion.com/TSUKI-81942.html
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FWIW, I have the Taks and Elrogs, the tube that gets the most play in my Lio DHT are the 2A3s Vinnie sends with the DHT. Very speaker dependent, I am running GR Research NX Oticas MTMs over Servo Subs in H frame alignment, YMMV. Clarity of the 2A3s is what impacts my impressions.
Best,
Ed
BTW, in my Bottlehead Kaiju, the Taks and Elrogs are my favorites, in that order.
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2a3s are just a lower distortion, higher clarity tube than the 300b. Not that I don't love the 300b, because I do. But the 2a3 is about as close to "perfect transparency" as I've heard, outside of a Type 45 tube. YMMV.
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I saw them on Amazon. The Lampizator and Border Patrol experts feel they sound good when they're good, but they are bad when they are bad, ie extremely variable.
I'be been using them for about a year. Better than the EH tubes - more extended, with a better defined midrange. I can't compare them to the Taks or Elrods, I haven't gone that route yet, although I'm thinking about it.
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Got this email update from Western Electric this morning:
On November 21, 2019, shortly after our last update, Western Electric’s Rossville Works team successfully tested a series of newly manufactured 300B electron tube units. Following Western Electric standards and Bell System practices, each unit survived an eight-hour aging and stressing period and was then transitioned to the testing station to measure performance. We welcomed the much anticipated “GOOD TUBE” reports in style with a champagne toast on the factory floor!
Since then, quality assurance has remained our top priority. Before accepting any tubes for shipment and end use, they must first be proven good or “eligible” in repeatable, batch quantities. If one tube in a batch is ineligible, so is each of its mates. This non-negotiable step in the manufacturing process has always represented, and will continue to represent, the preeminence of quality at Western Electric. When success yields rise above 90%, deliveries to all pre-order customers and distributors will begin immediately.
NOTE REGARDING COVID-19
Staffing at Western Electric's main offices and at the Rossville Works has been reduced to increase safety and to help stop the spread of the coronavirus in our surrounding community. As a result, efforts to bring the 300B into full volume production have been significantly slowed. However, work will continue at our manufacturing facility in a limited capacity and we look forward to brighter news concerning product deliverability in the coming weeks.
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This is good news. :beer: I'm looking forward for anyone who is fortunate to be the first to receive to post his/her views of the WE 300Bs from Rossville. :drool:
Terence
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I have purchased Living Voice 300B tubes through Border Patrol. Below are my impressions so far on them and my take on the etherRegen I also have added to my system. I am using a microRendu to DAC 2.0 on my L2 Signature.
The majority of the week days I have worked from home and have been playing music in the background with the LV-300B tubes. Besides getting some playing hours on the tubes, that also allowed me to get playing time on the etherRegen as well as more hours on the L2 Signature.
I have the EH 300-B tubes included with the L2, Svetlana 811’s, KR Audio PX4 tubes, and the LV-300B tubes. I initially listened to the EH 300Bs after receiving the L2, and then went back to the PX4s prior to getting the LV-300Bs.
I am sure I have lost ability to hear higher frequencies with my older age, but I also suspect my perception of musical presentation would be affected if higher frequencies were not available in one setting, yet present in another.
My preference for equipment and presentation has continued to evolve. I think what I may have thought at times were music detail and emphasis actually could actually been influenced by noise that covered other information and emphasized a more edgy sound. I feel the L2 Signature is presenting more and distinctly separated information than I recall from the LIO. That leads into my still early read on the LV300B tubes.
I have been listening a good deal to Americana, including hybrid bluegrass, female and male vocals, blended vocals dipped in folk, jazz, and country, older well recorded rock, ensemble jazz as well as more easy listening jazz, blues, and a little classical—still learning to appreciate it.
I have liked and continue to like the PX4’s. The LV300B tubes seem to me to be more even across the highs, mids, and bass region. The PX4s come across more emphasized to me in the bass and some of the mid regions. PX4s seem much tighter in the bass than the EH-300Bs. The LV300Bs are not bloated nor bass shy, but do not seem as lit up there as the PX4s. My impressions are the LV-300Bs are more balanced in emphasis across the spectrum with possibly some slight emphasis in the bass region. The PX4s present more forward than the LV300 tubes. The 300B tubes give the impression of more space and better to me for imaging and distinct singers and instruments. Vocals are a bit more recessed, and seemingly more intimate to me. String instruments seem a bit sweeter, slightly more rounded than the PX4s. Perceived dynamics seem to me to be stronger with PX4 tubes, but that is probably my perception of more forward, immediate presentation and more mid and bass emphasis. The PX4s also seem a bit louder than the LV-300B tubes by about 1 volume setting on the L2 Signature. For now i have a preference for the PX4s for rock, and over the 811’s for that as well.
Staging is wider now than I recall with the LIO. I think that is a combination of changes, including the L2 Signature, the etherRegen, and possibly these tubes. The LV300Bs seem more cohesive, integrated sound across the wider perceived staging, while the PX4s seems to present more individual sound instrument placement, which is very wide on some music. I have not moved my speaker toe in, but probably would if just listening to PX4s. Some of this may be influenced by the etherRegen. When I first received the etherRegen and before the LV300Bs, this very wide and sudden distinct instrument staging was very noticeable and somewhat distracting. It doesn’t seem to be nearly as noticeable now, but picked up on it again as I changed to PX4s to listen to some same music selections I had recently done with the LV300B tubes. My opinion though is the tubes settle in better after playing for a least an hour or more compared to soon after swapping in.
The LV300B tubes are too large to accommodate the tube covers. I initially compared the sound of the PX4s with covers off as well, but I believe they do benefit from having them installed. The presentation is not as edgy and more revealing of softer sounds with the covers on. The LV300B tubes even without the covers still seem superior to me than the PX4s in these areas.
I find the etherRegen has been beneficial. There is some similarity in presentation to me as having the tube covers on the PX4 tubes—seemingly smoother with more available music information. I do think this device has also contributed to wider staging presentation.
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Hey y'all. One of my toddlers busted one of my Svetlana SV811s today. How much of a pain in the neck is it to buy a tube and try to match it, versus just buying a set of matched tubes?
Thanks in advance.
Plus: These look super cool and I want to try them! :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Philips-TC04-10-02-Triode-Power-Tube-Sender%C3%B6hren-Holland-4Volt-1-1-Amp/311832990465?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
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Hi MP,
One of my toddlers busted one of my Svetlana SV811s today.
Sorry to hear. Hopefully nobody was hurt, and luckily it isn't a very pricey tube like a TAK-300B.
You can't buy one tube and expect to match it with the current tube you have on hand (although it is possible that it would be close enough).
Or you can just buy a new matched pair, and keep your current tube as a spare. :wink:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Philips-TC04-10-02-Triode-Power-Tube-Sender%C3%B6hren-Holland-4Volt-1-1-Amp/311832990465?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
I don't think it uses the UX4 tube socket, so it won't work. See: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_tc0410.html
Vinnie
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Hi MP,
Sorry to hear. Hopefully nobody was hurt, and luckily it isn't a very pricey tube like a TAK-300B.
You can't buy one tube and expect to match it with the current tube you have on hand (although it is possible that it would be close enough).
Or you can just buy a new matched pair, and keep your current tube as a spare. :wink:
I don't think it uses the UX4 tube socket, so it won't work. See: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_tc0410.html
Vinnie
That's a shame, anything that alien looking must sound out of this world! :)
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Like Vinnie, I find that going way up in cost over the stock tubes does buy appreciably better sound.
I've tried TAK 300B, LV 300B, NOS WE300B, NOS WEVT52, Elrog 300B and Elrog ER50.
My favorite is the ER50, a 7V 'super 45' which runs perfectly on 5V. It really is like a 45 on steroids - same kind of lit up, airy fast presentation with endless treble but far better low end than typical 45 in a classic SET. The Western Electric VT52 is the equivalent. As a classic not modern tube, it's a bit softer and darker but in the same overall vein.
The exact same modern/classic difference applies to the WE 300B vs. Elrog 300B. As 300B, both of them are mellower and less lit up and quick than the ER50/VT52. Transients are gentler, the top end is slightly muted by contrast and as a result, the midrange feels slightly emphasized. Between them, the Western Electric 300B is more so than the Elrog 300B. From those four bottles, classic = heavier on decays, modern = crisper on leading edges. In a generalized way, one might even say, classic tube for classic music, modern tube for modern music. That's because the modern iterations have better bass, separation and control which also makes them 'stiffer' and less elastic. The classic tubes are more loose and lithe and billowy and 'reverby' so do exceptionally well with chamber music, minimalist vocals and such.
I didn't have the TAK in at the same time but it struck me as the most lit up and "45-ish" of the 300B I heard. That would place it closest to the 'super 45'. Unless I did an A/B, I wouldn't know how similar or not it comes.
For what it's worth, there you go. I've not seen anyone mention the Elrog ER50 but to my ears, it deserves attention way up there :popcorn:
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Now that my L2iSE is running in perfect order, I felt the need to mix up the tubes a little. For my music I really love the Svetlanas, so punchy and holographic. But I splurged and bought the Tak 300bs as well as the Ricardo Kron edition Lampizators.
I've put about 100 hours on the stock tubes, but much less on the test tubes.
The Taks are so detailed, bright, and "happy" that it's hard to get mad at them! :)
The Krons are darker, good with mid-range punch, and do well with harmonics.
I have yet to try out the WE 300bs but supposedly it will happen. Fingers crossed! :)