Does the Tact with 'full'range speakers negate need for sub?

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mr_bill

Hi,
I'm looking for comments from George or Eric or other Tact owners that use the Tact with their'full' range speakers (full as in mid 20's).
Does the Tact straighten out the bass frequencies enough and extend them that you don't feel the need to use a sub (one that is flat to approx. 20hz) with them?
Or.. is a sub needed to correct for our hearing loss of deep bass at lower volumes (i.e. loudness contour)?
Thanks,
Bill

NealH

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Does the Tact with 'full'range speakers negate need for sub?
« Reply #1 on: 14 Jul 2005, 10:20 pm »
A sub will generally still be needed for the bottom octave.  If the Tact tries to correct a mid-bass driver to get 30Hz, it will end up overdriving the  driver - to the point where linearity is compromised - and that makes good old fashion distortion.  So the problem with excessive equilazation is that the drivers can end up being pushed outside their ideal operating band and this gives rise to compression and non-linear distortion.

zybar

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Does the Tact with 'full'range speakers negate need for sub?
« Reply #2 on: 14 Jul 2005, 10:54 pm »
Quote from: rnhood
A sub will generally still be needed for the bottom octave.  If the Tact tries to correct a mid-bass driver to get 30Hz, it will end up overdriving the  driver - to the point where linearity is compromised - and that makes good old fashion distortion.  So the problem with excessive equilazation is that the drivers can end up being pushed outside their ideal operating band and this gives rise to compression and non-linear distortion.


I would qualify your statement with the usual "it depends on the speaker".  If the speaker was designed to work down to the very lowest frequencies, you can correct for some issues (especially peaks) without casuing distortion.

With the Salk Veracity HT'3 I don't feel the need for a sub (although I will have a pair made for HT where I need more volume to give a truly tactile experience).

With the RM 40's, when I brought them out into the room to improve soundstage depth, I lost enough bass that I needed the subs for music AND HT.

Not sure how much that answer helps, but it really depends on the spakers, your listening habits, and your environment.

George

ekovalsky

Does the Tact with 'full'range speakers negate need for sub?
« Reply #3 on: 15 Jul 2005, 01:00 am »
George is right, it really depends on the speaker.  There are really very few truely full range speakers out there (i.e. usable bass output to 20hz or below) that are contained in one box per side.  Some examples would be the big Montana, von Schweikert, and Wilson speakers.    If you happen to own something like this then you won't need or want subs, and a two channel unit like the RCS 2.0S is fine.

The Salk HT3 seems to do amazingly well for its size and single 10" woofer, with usabe in-room bass response to the mid-upper 20hz range.  My Alon main channels are designed with an acoustic roll off below 40hz or so.  The VMPS RM/X cut off at about 36hz in my room.  I never measured the RM-40 but they were probably about the same.

There are significant advantages to separating mains and subs, if you can implement a proper crossover between them (preferably at a very low frequency like 40-60hz) and get the time/phase alignment correct. Two pieces per side, whether coming that way from the factory or created by adding subs to your mains, can give you the best of both worlds with maximum bass quality/quantity and ideal soundstaging.  The caveat here is that putting subs in the corners will definitely potentiate any room nodes.  Without DSP or parEQ you will be struggling to find the best positions for four instead of two channels!  But with DSP or parEQ the subs automatically can go in the corners and then you can play with the mains to find their perfect spot.  Frankly I'm very surprised Genesis, Martin-Logan, Alon/Nola etc haven't started packaging their flagship two piece per side speakers with a DSP solution.  The Alon crossover supplied with my speakers is sitting in a drawer, replaced by a TacT RCS 2.2X which offers vastly better integration in every single way!

Mirroring what George said, I found that the VMPS speakers needed as much wall reinforcement as possible in the bottom 2-3 octaves and and placing them in positions agreeable to the bass basically killed the imaging.    Had I kept them good subs would have definitely been added which would have given me first octave bass and allowed me to pull the mains out into the room where they could image well.

If you are looking to buy TacT, if you can afford it I would definitely recommend the RCS 2.2X.  Even if you only use two channels now it gives you the ability to seamlessly add subs in the future.  But even if you buy an RCS 2.0S and outgrow it you could always resell and buy a 2.2X if and when you needs its capabilities.  The TacT gear holds it value well and is always in high demand on Audiogon.  Same with DEQX.  Behringer is dirt cheap even new!

RichardS

Does the Tact with 'full'range speakers negate need for sub?
« Reply #4 on: 15 Jul 2005, 02:10 am »
Just to ad to what's already been said:
Yes, your speakers will benefit from the Tact even without subs. It will even out the in-room bass response and take out the boom and mud that was obscuring the midrange clarity.

The set-up program asks you where you want to cut off the bass. If your speakers do 25Hz, then all you have to do is enter that. No need to push your driver to extend to 20Hz. 25Hz (or even 30) of clean bass sounds very, very good.

I initially used my Tact with Talon Khoruses (no subs) and it really helped. I had 20dB shifts in bass response before Tacting. Since, I have changed speakers and also now use corner subs. You'll probably want to do this eventually for the reasons ekovalsky stated.

With subs, you can get by with speakers that don't extend too low. You can also experiment with different crossover points, all the way up to 350Hz, with Tact's time alignment. I'm presently using a 200Hz crossover and it sounds really good.

Rick Craig

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Re: Does the Tact with 'full'range speakers negate need for
« Reply #5 on: 15 Jul 2005, 03:34 am »
Quote from: mr_bill
Hi,
I'm looking for comments from George or Eric or other Tact owners that use the Tact with their'full' range speakers (full as in mid 20's).
Does the Tact straighten out the bass frequencies enough and extend them that you don't feel the need to use a sub (one that is flat to approx. 20hz) with them?
Or.. is a sub needed to correct for our hearing loss of deep bass at lower volumes (i.e. loudness contour)?
Thanks,
Bill


You can use the TacT to increase the bass extension but the amount of EQ will depend on capability of your woofer(s). Today I did some testing of an amp from Adire which allows for equalization. Just for fun I was able to get a 7" woofer -3db @20hz but the output would be very limited if you were to do this in a normal listening room.