AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: rollo on 2 Nov 2019, 05:40 pm
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Using a music server which is hard wired to a router for streaming and art work only. I use a router supplied by Fios. Would a different router make a sonic difference and why ? Why are routers better than another ?
charles
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If you want to improve your ethernet playback, the optimum thing to do is SOtM Switch with internal upgrade clock along with SOtM Ethernet cable with filter. Makes a BIG difference.
https://sotm-usa.com/products/sotm-dcbl-cat7-lan-cable (https://sotm-usa.com/products/sotm-dcbl-cat7-lan-cable)
https://sotm-usa.com/products/snh-10g?variant=21179555217487 (https://sotm-usa.com/products/snh-10g?variant=21179555217487)
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Thanks will take a look.
charles
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If you want to improve your ethernet playback, the optimum thing to do is SOtM Switch with internal upgrade clock along with SOtM Ethernet cable with filter. Makes a BIG difference.
https://sotm-usa.com/products/sotm-dcbl-cat7-lan-cable (https://sotm-usa.com/products/sotm-dcbl-cat7-lan-cable)
https://sotm-usa.com/products/snh-10g?variant=21179555217487 (https://sotm-usa.com/products/snh-10g?variant=21179555217487)
What improvement on playback you have settled with these equipment..?
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The new Uptone Audio switch is just now being released. Looks more promising - and affordable too - than the SoTM products. It’s built from the ground up, rather than a repurposed and upgraded standard network switch which is what SoTM and others do.
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Using a music server which is hard wired to a router for streaming and art work only. I use a router supplied by Fios. Would a different router make a sonic difference and why ? Why are routers better than another ?
charles
Hi Charles, switch and router don't change anything on the sound domain. Why ? because they don't modify the data source (your streaming files) and the electrical ethernet signal is already galvanically protected side by side on controllers / HOST standard devices (Switch/NIC) ..
difference about network devices, router , wi-fi router , switch and so on , hold on protocols that they are able to manage; most of the consumer network devices use generic purpose processors and manages all the work on software side. enterprise network devices use dedicated processor to do so , and relies on it to gain fast operation work..
hi-fi switch or router anyway don't exist , most of these companies use netgear branded board to sell "audiophile" switch; they insert a regulated clock inside and nothing else .. this is the dark side of the moon. Jitter, latency , packet loss exist in ethernet and analog signals but , don't care for the digital info (your streaming source files) carried on ..
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Wheeewwww, glad that’s settled! :scratch: :roll: :lol:
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look forward .. a big change on local area networks "Era" today is the "time sensitive networking" specifications . Devices with TSN capability improve the resolution "stream" also for audio ,because gain the ability to carry on an deliver signal and related information with very low latency and put , in a very basic scenario, the time domain control to standard networks ..
cu
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What improvement on playback you have settled with these equipment..?
Improvements in clarity, focus and imaging.
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Hi Charles, switch and router don't change anything on the sound domain. Why ? because they don't modify the data source (your streaming files) and the electrical ethernet signal is already galvanically protected side by side on controllers / HOST standard devices (Switch/NIC) ..
difference about network devices, router , wi-fi router , switch and so on , hold on protocols that they are able to manage; most of the consumer network devices use generic purpose processors and manages all the work on software side. enterprise network devices use dedicated processor to do so , and relies on it to gain fast operation work..
hi-fi switch or router anyway don't exist , most of these companies use netgear branded board to sell "audiophile" switch; they insert a regulated clock inside and nothing else .. this is the dark side of the moon. Jitter, latency , packet loss exist in ethernet and analog signals but , don't care for the digital info (your streaming source files) carried on ..
All misinformation. These things do matter and many audiophile switches are new designs, like the SOtM.
I started by modding my own netgear router by improving the power delivery to the active devices inside and changing the SMPS to a fast LPS. This did help, but not as much as an audiophile switch with a fast LPS.
I have experimented with multiple different switches and Ethernet cables as well as isolators and filters. They all make an improvement if used in the right places, and cables in optimum lengths.
If you don't have a system that is resolving enough to hear the improvement, this might lead to down the garden path.
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Well I tell ya the split TWL 1.5mtr. USB cable just destroyed the Shunyata Venom USB in tonality and harmonics. Thanks Pete and Dave. One down more to go. Back to routers. I just changed out the BS power supply from my FIOS router and installed an iFi wall wart OM goodness. Wer what a linear power supply might do.
Thanks Steve I'm learning the streaming digital thingie. Still a dedicated transport/DAC kinda person. However willing to try.
charles
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What is a split TWL 1.5mtr. USB cable?
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What is a split TWL 1.5mtr. USB cable?
Triode Wire Labs USB with split lines. One for Data one for Power. I never though a USB cable could make a difference like that did. Killed the Shunyata Venom. Tonality and harmonic structure to lust after period. Highly recommended.
charles
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All misinformation. These things do matter and many audiophile switches are new designs, like the SOtM.
I started by modding my own netgear router by improving the power delivery to the active devices inside and changing the SMPS to a fast LPS. This did help, but not as much as an audiophile switch with a fast LPS.
I have experimented with multiple different switches and Ethernet cables as well as isolators and filters. They all make an improvement if used in the right places, and cables in optimum lengths.
If you don't have a system that is resolving enough to hear the improvement, this might lead to down the garden path.
yes yes, I'm mr. misinformation and I own a system that does not resolve enough :lol: .. however call me when you will be able to improve the audio signals in the ethernet frame using a netgear powered "modded" switch , i will be happy to hear the differences and clean my dirty mind
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Yup, LPS’s matter on network equipment. I have my router and separate switch both on Uptone LPS 1.2’s. As your digital source quality improves, the network gear becomes more and more of the bottleneck. Bigger and bigger SQ leaps from network gear/power improvements come after you have that source server/endpoint tech really dialed in.
The custom switch options out there likely take things to a whole other level.
But I wouldn’t recommend any of this stuff if you’re still running your files from a Mac Mini or from a laptop, or from a bone stock NUC. Better to invest first in audiophile-grade computer or dedicated streamer solution first. Network upgrades second. Though I might be wrong about that. I guess it would be worth a bit of comparison once I have the EtherRegen in place - then go back to a basic computer as source and see.
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Yup, LPS’s matter on network equipment. I have my router and separate switch both on Uptone LPS 1.2’s. As your digital source quality improves, the network gear becomes more and more of the bottleneck. Bigger and bigger SQ leaps from network gear/power improvements come after you have that source server/endpoint tech really dialed in.
The custom switch options out there likely take things to a whole other level.
this is your mantra .. ok ok. If you hear the difference I'm impressed for level improvement with a network gear LPS powered, nothing else?
but responses about Charles question's remain undebated for a long long time in this thread. I'm sure because (this is a closed circle) I'm the disinforMan :lol: .. bye
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Although it would be painful for you, given your preconceived notions, you could spend some time over at Audiophile Style forum to learn more about how audible many people find these kinds of changes.
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and many people not... but this isn't a religious war.
thanks for invitation on the Audiophile Style forum , what is the features audiophile switch / router does have to change the clarity, focus and imaging of sound ?
or, in other hands, if my switch/router is a bottleneck for all of these sound features, is a bottleneck also for my other data ?
also my network provider is a bottleneck for audio ? and Qobuz or Tidal use any audiophile gears to provide our music path ?
this is the SATA Audiophile interface debate .. an old story that ended worse for an audio journalist :roll:
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This topic has been my main focus in recent weeks. I have learned a ton and my research and discovery mirrors Steve Nugent's. The difference was very significant. Depending on what I did, the presentation of the music can be harmed or improved. To dismiss your network out of hat is not advised.
Charles, if you wish to discuss this off forum, PM me.
SOtM commands my respect in this industry and their products have great price to value in my estimation. Depending on each individual application, other manufacturer routers may be better and are more expensive.
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In my system, the network was an obvious bottleneck, and I believe still could be improved. For me, it was clearly hindering the performance of my streaming and my file based playback before I paid attention to it. The difference the now what I would call well configured network made to my system was absolutely huge IMO. It is the beginning, and the end, it seems in my system, of which I believe to be resolving.
An open mind discovers. I would encourage anyone that has their digital rig connected to the internet in any way, to optimize it to the fullest if you are able. audioengr, as well as ketcham are excellent resources for this information.
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Placebo effect. 100% guaranteed.
It is literally impossible for digital audio signals to improve in any way that even vaguely aligns with your descriptions. It is analogous to using a different brand of SD card to get richer, more vibrant colours out of your digital camera. It is analogous to changing the ethernet cable on your computer to make web pages more insightful..
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https://community.roonlabs.com/t/valley-of-audiophile-ethernet-cables/30251/25
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Now that the microSD card had been brought up. YES! They do make a difference. This could be manufacturer/model, speed of reading the files, uhs 1 vs. uhs 2, single layer capacity design vs mulit/quad, or ensuring 20% or more free space on the card. Can be one or a multitude of factors. If your digital audio uses microSD cards, this is important to consider.
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Well just for kicks I decided to try another power supply. A 5A 12V using a TWL HC PC instead of iFi [ which was a big improvement]. The linear power supply even better. OK good now lets try a different Ethernet [ 12 ft]. Installed a Monoprice Cat8. A little warme sound than the Staples Ethernet. After settling a bit not warm just better.
charles
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Now that the microSD card had been brought up. YES! They do make a difference. This could be manufacturer/model, speed of reading the files, uhs 1 vs. uhs 2, single layer capacity design vs mulit/quad, or ensuring 20% or more free space on the card. Can be one or a multitude of factors. If your digital audio uses microSD cards, this is important to consider.
Space and speed are two good attribute but they don’t modify clarity and resolution of your photo files nor the reproduction ..
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200542)
the end of the barrel ! :roll:
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Placebo effect. 100% guaranteed.
It is literally impossible for digital audio signals to improve in any way that even vaguely aligns with your descriptions. It is analogous to using a different brand of SD card to get richer, more vibrant colours out of your digital camera. It is analogous to changing the ethernet cable on your computer to make web pages more insightful..
I know better than to engage here, but what the hell.....
I don't know how you could state this as fact. How do you know? I think is a fair question. I tend to not say things in absolute terms that I do not know about, and when I describe my findings, I try to qualify my statements as my own opinion and experiences. I don't think I have ever been 100% sure of anything related to audio, other than the truly literal things like, "this is an amplifier, this is a wire, this is a source, this is a speaker", etc.
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Regarding microSD cards. This is what drives the firmware in certain applications. Typically faster processors cause more noise/jitter. However, we are finding with the UHS II microSD and high quality (aka fast) UHS I, the ability to access and process does indeed improve the presentation of the music. There may exist a trade off but the benefit is there.
MicroSD cards are dirt cheap relative to our audio systems. Try different ones and listen. MicroSD cards can also fail (develop errors) and like a faulty valve (tube) the music still plays but the quality degrades significantly. I have dealt with this exact issue in recent weeks.
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I know better than to engage here, but what the hell.....
I don't know how you could state this as fact. How do you know? I think is a fair question. I tend to not say things in absolute terms that I do not know about, and when I describe my findings, I try to qualify my statements as my own opinion and experiences. I don't think I have ever been 100% sure of anything related to audio, other than the truly literal things like, "this is an amplifier, this is a wire, this is a source, this is a speaker", etc.
Network equipment devices don’t sound , really. It’s not my fact , is fact.
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Regarding microSD cards. This is what drives the firmware in certain applications. Typically faster processors cause more noise/jitter. However, we are finding with the UHS II microSD and high quality (aka fast) UHS I, the ability to access and process does indeed improve the presentation of the music. There may exist a trade off but the benefit is there.
MicroSD cards are dirt cheap relative to our audio systems. Try different ones and listen. MicroSD cards can also fail (develop errors) and like a faulty valve (tube) the music still plays but the quality degrades significantly. I have dealt with this exact issue in recent weeks.
Bits don't work that way.
Whereas the placebo effect is very real and very powerful.
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Yep, and it goes both ways.
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I still don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Certainly doesn’t have anything to do with how actual systems in the real world work.
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What if it is not about bits at all? Noise, and its effects on Jitter are also very real, even in this domain.
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For example: All the bit fidelity in the world didn’t prevent you from coming to shit all over this thread.
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I still don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Certainly doesn’t have anything to do with how actual systems in the real world work.
It is very clear we hear a difference period. If you cannot accept that cool just leave us be.
charles
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For example: All the bit fidelity in the world didn’t prevent you from coming to shit all over this thread.
haha! this is the discless circle and not your "gilda".. you're sure to know where you are?
you have finished the topics and are starting to get mad at me ..
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What if it is not about bits at all? Noise, and its effects on Jitter are also very real, even in this domain.
But it is incorrect to say that digital transmissions must be at the mercy of other phenomenon. Digital transmissions can defy physics. There are numerous techniques which ensure that a signal reaches the destination with precisely zero flipped bits and exact timing. And even when the signal has no integrity mechanisms, in practice the error rate will be low enough to never matter in practice.
And you know what, even if bits were getting flipped and jitter was extreme, you still wouldn't have signal degradation in the ways described by audiophiles; you would get a raised noise floor. Random error is noise. Noise is random error.
Of course this is never an issue. We can send digital signals that are millions of times more complex than digital audio, with zero problems, using equipment that is insanely cheap. The assertion that the extremely low data rate PCM audio signals have some special risk associated with them is delusional.
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It is very clear we hear a difference period. If you cannot accept that cool just leave us be.
charles
clear , there's a new audiophile born every minute ..
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Just replaced the FIOS LPS wall wart to the FIOS router to an ifi wall wart. Sounds better to me. More focused with less noise. Stage opened up a bit more as well.
charles
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Charles, I recommend you try using Sbooster MK2 power supplies on everything attached to your audio network. I use them everywhere, including my Modem, Router, Switch, NAS.....
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clear , there's a new audiophile born every minute ..
Do not insult me. No Kid here. Do not know your audio experience but mine is over 40 years, buying, selling listening to audio gear, setting up systems at audio shows. Winning best sound at shows, CES, CAF. Was one one of Harry Pearsons listening group. I have been around. I know what I hear.
Everything makes a difference in sound. Just because it cannot be measured [ yet ] does not mean a thing. With that thinking just go buy a 1980 receiver from Japan with stellar specs and shit sound. This is what most think why would you want to challenge our hearing or personal experience ? Back to routers.
charles
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Likewise, I’ve found great effects from my Ultracap power supplies on all network equipment. And not just audio quality. I was having WiFi dropout issues with my router that went away entirely after I improved the power supply.
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Do not insult me. No Kid here. Do not know your audio experience but mine is over 40 years, buying, selling listening to audio gear, setting up systems at audio shows. Winning best sound at shows, CES, CAF. Was one one of Harry Pearsons listening group. I have been around. I know what I hear.
Everything makes a difference in sound. Just because it cannot be measured [ yet ] does not mean a thing. With that thinking just go buy a 1980 receiver from Japan with stellar specs and shit sound. This is what most think why would you want to challenge our hearing or personal experience ? Back to routers.
charles
you're a boss , don't continue puffery . Network devices don't sound , don't make difference on clarity, focus and imaging. leave on .
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you're a boss , don't continue puffery . Network devices don't sound , don't make difference on clarity, focus and imaging. leave on .
Done. Bye.
charles
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When did AC start allowing trolls to ruin threads?
AC is small enough where I thought trolls could be kept under control.
Hopefully it can be fixed.
Randy
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have to agree - was interested in this thread and interested in respective experience. Some good discussion and good intentions but shut down by one troll's personal attacks and off topic flames. Moderator can you jump and rescue this thread? Really had high hopes for it....
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There's no way that changing a power supply on a network switch can change the sound of anything. It's a simple technical fact. When did AC become so intolerant of anyone trying to say so?
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:cry:
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:cry:
It seems that it's quite painful for you to read an opinion different to your own. Unlike some other sites, AC tries to allow for diverse perspectives.
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There's no way that changing a power supply on a network switch can change the sound of anything. It's a simple technical fact. When did AC become so intolerant of anyone trying to say so?
I have to disagree with you here
And my issue is he says it over and over and over again.
I’m out of this thread now
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No, I’m fine with someone stating a difference of opinion. I’m not fine with someone stating the same thing over and over and over, browbeating every post genuinely trying to engage with the interests of the OP. In such a situation, yes I’ll spar a bit in the spirit of defending the intent of the thread.
I’m quite surprised at this response from you, given the history on AC of dustbinning trolling behavior, which this most certainly has been.
If Slash wants to start a thread bashing people who claim to have heard differences in routers and power supplies for them, I’d welcome such a thread. I just wouldn’t have anything to contribute to it, and wouldn’t go visit that thread to shit all over him or others who post there.
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No-one appointed you defender of the thread. Did you even read the first post? I was hoping someone would actually answer the questions asked.
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If you'll take a look, my first post suggested a switch (many same functionalities as a router, the topic of the OP) designed to make a difference. Sure, to truly answer the original post you'd have to go research a bit about that product and the voluminous information available to distinguish it from traditional switches that could matter for audio. Others also mentioned other companies/products, which additional research could yield info relevant to the OP.
Of course, then the original poster expressed interest in power issues too, so of course the thread evolved as conversations often do, but.............whatever, I don't have time for this crap. I'm done.
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A heated argument over whether or not a router can affect sound quality; egos are bruised, tempers flare.... could this qualify as a First World problem?
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I'm a bit confused, not for the "bits" themselves. :)
I answered a question still unanswered based on my experiences, which obviously are not yours, but we got to the point that I was asked to leave here, which I could have done without answering, and then in the corner you have requested the intervention of a moderator
I have few messages here and I think the AC community is not so intolerant.
The system may not work for everyone in the same way? OKAY. But is it always different for audio? Something that works for a purpose in the real world when it encounters audio is distorted?
The network evolves, the audio equipment evolves. they can run together but, audio doesn't change anything in the basic network model and vice versa network model don't modify audio representation.
it would be a serious matter if this happened, I think.
my 2cents
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It seems that it's quite painful for you to read an opinion different to your own. Unlike some other sites, AC tries to allow for diverse perspectives.
In this case however it was literally painful to read that opinion due to a blatant disregard for basic grammar and sentence structure. :lol:
I appreciate that the last post was more like prose poetry, so that's an improvement I can discern. But did it make a difference?
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The grammar suggests a non-native English speaker, it's not very nice to mock someone for that.
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apologize for my harsh English man..
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The grammar suggests a non-native English speaker, it's not very nice to mock someone for that.
It's not the non-native. I'm not aware of any countries that use words with varying degrees of spaces between broken words and punctuation.
At any rate, this is not a hill I have any desire to defend, so have fun y'all.