AudioCircle
Industry Circles => ModWright Instruments (MWI) => Topic started by: ajayrav on 13 Dec 2013, 09:26 pm
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Hello folks,
Just wondering what tubes I should upgrade to from the EH 6sn7s supplied. I upgraded the rectifier in the PS to a Gold Lion one. I like the way the EHs sound in my rig; however I would like a tad bit more air and more 3D of a soundstage. I'm not sure I like the way the Sophia Electric 6sn7s sound, though others swear by it. Goes to show how much room acoustics and personal preferences play. I love the 3D and space, but the bass is a little fatiguing in my setup with the Sophias. My amp is a Primaluna Dialogue One with Mazda Cifte 12au7s and Winged SED EL34s.
Any suggestions for 6sn7s are welcome....
Thanks,
Ajay
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Get a nice pair of NOS Tung Sol or Sylvania 6SN7s.
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Get a nice pair of NOS Tung Sol or Sylvania 6SN7s.
I don't know about the Tung Sols, but the Sylvanias and many other NOS 6SN7's will be slightly (or more) microphonic compared to the EH or Sophias. They will almost surely sound better than the EH, though.
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I keep going back and forth with my recently acquired (and still needing burn-in) Sophia 6SN7s, and a pair of RCA gray glass 6SN7GTs (or VT-231s). It seems that I always go back to one of the pairs of grey RCAs after trying other 6SN7 tubes. The RCAs are an extremely nice synergistic match with the Genalex Gold Lion GZ34 rectifier. This combo may not give you the ultimate extension on top, but the soundstage is huge and more holographic, and the mids are fantastic.
I don't like the Sophias with the Gold Lion rectifier. Much too aggressive, a little harsher, and a smaller soundstage, imo. To me, the Sophias sound much better with an old Sylvania 5U4G rectifier.
BTW, this is with a Modwright Oppo-95, not a 105, but I think it's still a valid observation. I am still playing with different combinations of the 6SN7s and rectifiers, but I will report back on what really sings in my system. I have a Philips 54RGYS, as well as an RCA 5R4GY, both rectifiers, coming soon to play with. :duh:
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Mark, your impressions are what I would have expected. The RCA VT231s grey glass are really nice tubes.
RB, I have rarely had microphonic issues with 6SN7s, especially TS or Sylvania.
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I don't like the Sophias with the Gold Lion rectifier. Much too aggressive, a little harsher, and a smaller soundstage, imo. To me, the Sophias sound much better with an old Sylvania 5U4G rectifier.
Yup, that is what I'm getting... aggressive and harsh, though I like the spaciousness and the 3D imaging.... The RCA gray glass 6sn7 tubes are on the expensive side, though.... But I guess so are the Sophias!
Thanks,
Ajay
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My Sylvanias are defintely microphonic, although I doubt it affects their sound in any way. Both audiotubes.com and tubeworld.com say that is a characteristic of the VT-231's and most 6SN7GT/A/B's, to one degree or another. Maybe not your Tungsols, maybe not the Sylvania 6SN7W's, but probably anything less expensive, and (FWIW) not with newer tubes like the EH's or Sophias, although the sonic trade-offs involved may make the issue moot.
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...The RCA gray glass 6sn7 tubes are on the expensive side, though.... But I guess so are the Sophias!
Thanks,
Ajay
The RCA grayglass are said by tubeworld to be slightly microphonic, but are relatively inexpensive for premium 6SN7's (~$100/pr), compared to $250-500/pr for the tubes David is recommending.
I'm going to be trying the Sophias with a Mullard GZ34 rectifier next, currently using Sylvania "Bad Boys" with that Mullard, certainly not "forward" or "harsh", more "airy" with what I would consider an average soundstage. Good bass with this combination!
Which Gold Lion rectifier are you using? I'm a relative tyro, and the only Gold Lion I find easily is the superexpensive 5U4G?
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The RCA grayglass are said by tubeworld to be slightly microphonic, but are relatively inexpensive for premium 6SN7's (~$100/pr), compared to $250-500/pr for the tubes David is recommending.
I was actually recommending 6SN7WGTs which are $100-$125 per pair.
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I have two pairs of the RCA gray glass VT-231s, and one pair of the RCA gray glass 6SN7GT. The VT-231 pairs are indeed a bit microphonic. The GT pair is not, and are dead silent! I honestly could not tell of any sonic differences between the two, and yes, the GTs are cheaper than the VT-231s. The GTs are on my Oppo-95 now. Glorious!
I am using the Genalex Gold Lion GZ34, which I got off of Ebay for $40 from "tubemazestore". It's really a very nice rectifier though its current production (What?? Not NOS?? Sacrilege! :duh:). Great match for the RCAs above.
I have tried and wanted to like the Mullard GZ34 (I own the F31 date code) based on its reputation. I could never warm up to it. It always ends up back in its box.
I will eventually try a pair of short bottle Sylvania 6SN7W chrome tops on the Oppo, but with the RCAs in there now, I really am in no hurry!
Currently listening to the Acoustic Blues channel on Pandora thru the Oppo. Damn, it sounds good! :thumb:
The RCA grayglass are said by tubeworld to be slightly microphonic, but are relatively inexpensive for premium 6SN7's (~$100/pr), compared to $250-500/pr for the tubes David is recommending.
I'm going to be trying the Sophias with a Mullard GZ34 rectifier next, currently using Sylvania "Bad Boys" with that Mullard, certainly not "forward" or "harsh", more "airy" with what I would consider an average soundstage. Good bass with this combination!
Which Gold Lion rectifier are you using? I'm a relative tyro, and the only Gold Lion I find easily is the superexpensive 5U4G?
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I haven't run into a bad 6SN7 and I have lots of them, including some super cheap stuff that sounds great. The "premium" old stock tubes do sounds really good, noticeably better than the dirt cheap stuff, but not a night and day difference either.
For big bucks I'd take the Soviet 1578 or RCA 5692. On the cheap my favorites are various Sylvania GTAs, I have both tall and short bottles, both are good. Also the newer coin-based GE GTBs were very good too.
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Which Gold Lion rectifier are you using? I'm a relative tyro, and the only Gold Lion I find easily is the superexpensive 5U4G?
The Gold Lion Genalex GZ34s.....
Cheers,
Ajay
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The Gold Lion Genalux GZ34 has the magic of the Mullards and the dynamics of the Create and it's much cheaper...
Wig
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PSVANE are often mentioned as sounding good for new tubes. I notice that thetubestore has the same (I think) Shuguang Treasure CV-181Z for somewhat less money. Does anyone here know if there is any difference other than price?
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The "best" rectifier tube I've found for the tubed Oppo is the Sylvaina 5931, which is a MIL SPEC 5U4. Built like a tank, and dead quiet. The P/S needs a cut out hole to employ this tube.
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RB, compared to other NOS tubes, I found the Shuguangs to be overpriced and not as good sounding. My favorite rectifier is the 596.
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RB, compared to other NOS tubes, I found the Shuguangs to be overpriced and not as good sounding. My favorite rectifier is the 596.
?
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91447)
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Here is a picture of the 5931 tube:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91448)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91447)
Is that an adaptor or an integral part of the tube?
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That is an adapter.
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The Tungsol 6SN7's NOS round plates that I have are very microphonic. Sound great otherwise but just too much ringing.
I've been comparing the Genelex to a metal base GZ34 and a Blackburn Mullard CV593. The Mullard was sweet but lacked dynamics and bass. The Genelex pretty much was the equal to the Dutch metal base GZ34. It is a touch warmer and I like the tone better. To my ear, I prefer the Genelex but it's a very close comparison. This is in the LS100. My next comparison will be a Tungsol 5U4G and the GZ34 in the Oppo 95.
Came to post findings in the LS100 thread and thought I'd add it here.
Bottom line is the Genelex is a really worthwhile alternative and specially at $40. I got mine from Cyroset.
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I've spent considerable time listening with the Mullard 5AR4, Sophia 6SN7, Create 5AR4 & 6SN7 in all possible combinations. The sound in my system is by far best with the Create Audio 5AR4 and 6SN7's together. Super linear and extended top to bottom, dead quiet, and a deep precise soundstage. I found the Sophia's to be big and spacious but the low end and soundstage accuracy were just not there compared to the Create Audio tubes. It seems that the Sophia and Mullard tubes would appeal more to the vintage tube sound lovers.
My system:
ModWright KWI-200
ModWright Tubed Oppo
Vandersteen 3A Sig
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Where can one buy a Create Audio 5AR4? They aren't currently listed on the Synergy Hifi page?
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Where can one buy a Create Audio 5AR4? They aren't currently listed on the Synergy Hifi page?
http://store.jaguaraudiodesign.com/synergy-hifi-6sn7-el84-el34-and-5ar4/
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Where can one buy a Create Audio 5AR4? They aren't currently listed on the Synergy Hifi page?
I have a spare unused one - please pm if interested.
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Saying things like '...such-and-such tubes are microphonic' I think is incorrect. It is the case that some makes and models tend to go microphonic but I wouldn't dismiss all of those tubes outright. Buy your tubes from a vendor that tests for noise, like Brent Jesse or TC tubes and you should be just fine. If you're particularly concerned about tube noise then specify to the vendor that you'd like low noise versions. You may have to pay a little more but you'll have your peace of mind.
Keep on rollin'!
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Brent Jessie and tubeworld are the ones who made the generic statements about most NOS 6SN7's being at least slightly microphonic, I was merely passing it on. They have much more experience in such matters than I do.
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I ordered 4 Create 6SN7 tubes and 2 Create 5AR4 tubes from Jaguar yesterday and they shipped [something] same day
and I received USPS tracking number late afternoon. Hopefully it is the entire order...and may arrive as soon as Friday.
At some point these will go in my Modwright Oppo 105 and also into my LS-100.
I will report results after a reasonable time frame for break-in.
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I did quite a bit of tube rolling myself Oppo 105/Modwright Truth mods.......I also tried the Upscale Audio Phillips 5R4GY and finally ended up back to Sophia 6SN7 and Vintage Mullard 5AR4........It really depends on where your system is ( Tonally ) and how it all Gells with your set up. There are too many variables ( in my mind ) to say which sounds best, when it really boils down to how each set of tubes fills your personal requirements. I am sure all the tubes mentioned are as mentioned and also great tubes to try, but don't bet the farm on any combo until you try them.........
The Phillips 5R4GY was a nice tube, but being my system is quite neutral to start with the Phillips tube was just too lightweight and lean to go with the Sophia 6SN7 . For my rig I have ended my tube search with Sophia 6SN7 and Mullard 5AR4 ..........
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Which vintage / country for your Mullard GZ34?
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After leaving the Sophia 6SN7's on the whole time I've had them (just over two weeks), they seem to have lost their initial slight harshness and improved their bass quality.
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The Sophias will take at least 100 hours or so to get close to there final destination...They will continue to prove beyond 100 hours.. They tend to sound Thin, edgy and bass thin for quite awhile. As time goes on they will improve dramatically and eventually sound sweet. open and complete......For me the GZ34 ( NOS ) Mullard and the Sophia 6sn7 are pure magic together...I can't imagine a better match, at least for my set up.........Like everything else ( in this crazy hobby ) different stokes for different folks is the rule........
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I'm also using a Mullard GZ34, c. 1970 Japanese for now (at least). Which are you using?
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Just a quick update... I swapped my current production Gold Lion rectifier with a NOS Mullard Blackburn GZ34 and left the Sophia 6sn7s in the unit. Now we are talking! I just am amazed at how wonderful this combination sounds... Wasn't that impressed with just changing out the EH 6sn7s with Sophias, and hated the Sophia/ Gold Lion combo (far too aggressive), however the Mullard/ Sophia is pure magic. In my opinion, the rectifier definitely needs to be upgraded along with the 6sn7s to hear what the Modwright Oppo is truly capable of. Others on this forum clearly concur.... I'm thrilled!
Ajay
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Yes it's imperative that as you roll in different 6SN7s, you also roll in a rectifier. It's the combination that is key, as one or other will make or break the resulting sound quality!
Another fantastic sounding combination in my Modwright Oppo 95: a pair of Sylvania shorty chrometop 6SN7Ws (black base, green lettering) with an RCA 5R4GY. This combo gives me an awesome soundstage, great mids, and good balance on both sides of the sonic spectrum. Sweet!
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So I got this GZ34 yesterday
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-Vintage-NOS-NIB-Mullard-5AR4-GZ34-F31-Dual-D-Getter-Vacuum-Tube-/121238392325?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1120
It certainly appears to be a f31 Mullard from 1958 but it's not a fat base. In fact it looks more like one of the Dutch f31's (smooth plates) but it has the X8C code on the bottom that I thought indicated Great Britain. Did Philips (Mullard) make non-fat base GR34's in GB in 1958?
In any case, not even well broken-in it sounds pretty nice!
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Your 1958 Dutch made (X marking) Philips production GZ-34 / 5AR4 was the first version made after the metal base. If you had this tube and a metal base GZ-34 (all were Philips production) side by side, the internals would be identical: Double 'D' getters and smooth plates. I have not taken the time to do an A/B comparison but others who have claim they sound similar, if not identical, to the metal base version.
I hope you like it (I do!) as it is WAY less $$$ than the metal base.
Here is some GZ-34 history you may find interesting:
http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo%20GZ34/GZ34.htm
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Very interesting. I actually have several of those. 1 is a relabeled Rogers.
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Just took delivery of a Modwright 105 Darbee with all the mods. Swapped out the rectifier with the above mentioned Mullard and I am hearing things behind me, which I have never experienced this before....Amazing. Just swapped out the the player tubes with the Sophias and have yet to hear the big jump over the stock tubes. Only have 10 hrs so far so I know it will take a little time.
This player is truly a bargain. I have 2 2tb hard drives of hi-rez music and it plays flawlessly thru the usb with the Oppo Ipad app. I pull music off my computer network. On top of that the player is a world class Blu-ray player. the Darbee is worth the extra 100 as I have it hooked up to a 92 inch projection system and allows dsd streaming thru the computer. Truly a bargain. The wife can actually operate it and upgraded Pandora doesn't sound too bad.
I tried the Mac Mini and a Modded Eastern Electric Mini Max dac plus and it was complicated. I had a Bryston BDP-1 and the Dac plus and could never get the sound I was looking for. Plus the Bryston was slow and couldn't handle the portable hard drives. So I bit the bullet and for a grand more I got the Oppo. What a bargain!!
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I'm trying out some 1940's RCA VT-231 greyglass (since I haven't found a good pair of TungSol ovals yet).
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These look like a very nice pair. Ain't cheap though. http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-VT231-NOS-TUNG-SOL-6SN7-1940s-6SN7GT-TUNGSOL-/171243396741?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27dee6de85 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-VT231-NOS-TUNG-SOL-6SN7-1940s-6SN7GT-TUNGSOL-/171243396741?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27dee6de85)
or these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Tung-Sol-CTL-6SN7GT-VT-231-black-round-plates-matching-pr-6SN7-6SN7GT-/281266345258?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417cc7d52a (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Tung-Sol-CTL-6SN7GT-VT-231-black-round-plates-matching-pr-6SN7-6SN7GT-/281266345258?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417cc7d52a)
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Thanks David! The two more expensive pairs are from France; the test results on the least expensive pair actually look pretty good, but based partly on my experience with a similar slightly mismatched pair (where in my Oppo one tube had noticeably more output than the other) I've been a little skeptical of this pair.
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Wow, russian military 1578 type tubes usually go for about $200/pair... they are considered the best of the best, has anyone compared them to high $$$ tung sols?
I have a pair of tubes that are the same as the 1578s but they have no holes in the plates... they are very very good tubes and the "real" 1578s with holes and black plates are supposed to be even better.
If you do try the russian tubes the only ones worth spending money on are the ones that are marked 1578, have metal bases and black plates with holes. They usually go for about $200/pair IF you can find them. There are a bunch of "close but not quite" tubes on ebay for too much money. I got mine for $50/pair but some are trying to sell these for the same price as real 1578s.
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There are quite a few rankings of the 6SN7 type tubes around; I don't recall seeing those Russian tubes ever mentioned? Are you sure it's a 6SN7 equivalent?
edit: Perhaps these are also designated 6H8C? I haven't seen any NOS for sale in the last few months
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Yes, they are definitely 6SN7s, there are usually some on ebay although the seller russhamma seems to be offline... he had the right ones. Some others probably do to, idk.
The ones I have are metal base black plate, but they lack the holes in the plates. They sound excellent. I have some really nice 6SN7s and 5692s and the Russians are up there. I do not have any crazy high $ tubes though.
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It's both gratifying and depressing how much more satisfying the oval-plate TungSol's are than any of the other tubes I've tried. Better bass, better highs, better imaging, smoother response, low-noise. The depressing part is the cost and limited availability. Why can't a company like Kronzilla copy these?
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RB, not surprising impressions.
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Seems like the Tung Sol black glass oval plate 6SN7GT is the holy grail. If I can get my hands on 2 matched pair, should I go for it? It'll probably be hard to find these jewels again.
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How does the Tung Sol Oval stack up with the RCA Redbase 5692?
Wig
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I don't find them comparable. The TS are music more musical - much sweeter sound.
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dminches,
Thanks, I'll have to keep my eyes open for a pair some time in the near future especially if the price is right!
Wig :thumb:
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dminches,
How close does the Sylvania VT 231 or W compare to the Tungsol?
Thanks,
Wig :D
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I am not a fan of the Sylvania VT231s. I find them thin sounding a lacking base. I do like the 6SN7W tall body and the Sylvania WGTs. I prefer the TS but the margin isn't huge. The WGTs are the best value. The 6SN7Ws can get pretty expensive too.
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Just thought I'd throw out a nice combination 1950s RCA 6SN7 GTB with a 1950s GE 5AR4 rectifier...awesome sound hint of warmth.
Not expensive!
Mark
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Now if you really wanted to kick up the performance a few notches...try a set of these - on ebay! Plus free shipping. :wink:
RARE 1x PAIR OF OSRAM 6SN7 B65 COATED GLASS METAL BASE made in UK Audio Tube
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1x-PAIR-OF-OSRAM-6SN7-B65-COATED-GLASS-METAL-BASE-made-in-UK-Audio-Tube/201274005281?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D31192%26meid%3Df792fa27b0d74aec9d608cc6df6c8b2d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201345471024&rt=nc
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I'm way overdue adding to this topic.
First of all the Modwright sounds wonderful with whatever tubes used. I am very pleased with the Oppo 105
I've only used a fat bottle Mullard GZ34 per Dan's suggestion. I have found this rectifier the gold standard in most gear that uses that type. I plan to buy a couple reissue GL someday and may give one a try.
For 6SN7 I tested Sylvania metal base, Tung-sol black glass oval plate, a matched set of WWII RCA's black plate and a pair of Psvane Treasure CV181-Z.
Long story short the Psvane Z is the one I kept. I think the Tung-sol was awsome but I had one die on me. The metal base Sylvania is amazing too. My Psvane CV141Z is an older pair nearly two years old they have a T MK II version out now that is supposed to have slightly extended highs as opposed to the Z with a more vintage laid back sound this according to Psvane. I'm not sure how much marketing or fact is involved in their business. I do know they sound great. I hope this doesn't sound like a commercial for Grant but I've got several tube types from them and been very pleased.
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I found the Sophia 6sn7 to be super microphonic, so much so I could hear the drawer through the speakers. Herbies dampers solved this.
For rectifier, could the GZ32 be used?
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Send 50 bucks to Modwright for the cover with the top hole cut out. Install the Phillips rectifier( sorry out of town for the model number). Big improvement over the Mullard. I think the tube is 50 bucks. Much better low end and overall sound
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It's $100 now, and not necessarily better than a good '50's/60's Mullard, depending on your signal tubes. It may be a good match for Sophias, whose sound is often characterized as a little "thin".
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I believe its the 5u4 you're referring to thats the big one. wanted to try a tele gz32 but unsure if its an equivalent. it might be lower current etc.
maybe Dan knows...
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5r4gys, although many 5u4g are about the same shape
You definitely don't want to sub in a lower power tube as a rectifier.
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After almost 2 months with the latest premium PSVane CV-181, I have to say I'm mighty impressed with them in this application. Compared to my TungSol oval plates, these are completely non-microphonic, have a more defined bottom end , and really only give up a smidgen of upper mid lower treble smoothness to the TS. Of course, they also cost almost as much :lol: