Line Force?

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Jaytor

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #180 on: 1 Feb 2023, 01:56 am »
Jaytor,

Would you care to comment on your observations regarding the size of the sweet spot with the Line Forces vs your NX-Oticas now that your big caps are properly broken in? Is it still an issue you feel the need to work on?

I have been playing around with speaker position and bit and have been able to significantly improve the sweat spot width. It still sounds best when seated centered between the speakers as every speaker I've owned does, but I can now get a decent stereo image across the width of my couch.

Regarding the change in response while standing, as Danny has mentioned, there is a bit of change in response when your ear height is near the top of the line arrays, but this is the case with any line array. Obviously a taller array would mitigate this, but at the cost of a more visually imposing design. I personally think the existing Line Force design is pretty optimal, particularly in my room which has a moderate height ceiling.

I should make it clear that these speakers sound spectacular when seated. They still sound very good when standing, and it's only because I'm very familiar with the sound that I have noticed the change. No one else that has heard them has even noticed.

I've had a number of experienced audiophiles over to hear my system that have commented that it is among the best (if not THE best) system they have heard. I'm really glad to hear that Danny and company are looking at a new version using the Radian drivers. This speaker concept deserves to be heard by more people.

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #181 on: 1 Feb 2023, 02:14 am »
If I can come up with an assembly of dual LT10’s and a single LT2 that’s killer, I’ll let Don and Jay know. And we will listen to them over a bottle of fine bourbon. And I’m sure they will share the results.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #182 on: 1 Feb 2023, 02:28 am »
We don't want a tweeter in front of the LM10s, and the LT2 is too small for a line source and would be too far away from the next tweeter to be useful in a line array design, comb filtering would be an issue, hence why we're considering the LT6s so we don't need 16 tweeters in a line.

A better idea would be a pair of LM10 in a square arrangement, with an LT2/LT3 between the two, limiting any overlap of the drivers.
Or 2 pairs with the tweeter in between in an MMTMM configuration, as Danny designed with the older Super 7. (On the left)



Using a full line of LM10s with a line of LT6s next to it is better suited for our needs. Especially since we will want the LT6s to be open-backed, and placing open-backed LT6s infront of an array of LM10s isn't going to work for us either.

Not to mention the time arrival issues created by putting the tweeter in front of the mids rather than side by side.
DSP would be the only option in that case, but that's not something were interested in pursuing.

There are many options and ways to design a loudspeaker, and what works best depends on the intended application.

We mainly design speakers for home audio, pro-audio/DSP/active speakers scene isn't our thing.

For us, DSP is the last thing that should ever be considered, and even then only for bass from 200Hz down to take care of room issues that can't easily be addressed with room treatment.

Not to mention most home users aren't going to have access to something like a Trinnov style DSP processor, or speakers will fully adjustable digital crossover, like those found in the pro audio market. Even then, a typical studio room is expected to be well-treated, so what DSP work it has to do, is minimal corrections.

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #183 on: 1 Feb 2023, 02:38 am »
Yeah everyone has their own design philosophies. The benefit with what I do is my clients only want the best period. And aren’t limited by audiophile biases to reach the goal. So that allows me to build the best systems possible. 

david45

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #184 on: 1 Feb 2023, 02:48 am »
I have been playing around with speaker position and bit and have been able to significantly improve the sweat spot width. It still sounds best when seated centered between the speakers as every speaker I've owned does, but I can now get a decent stereo image across the width of my couch.

Regarding the change in response while standing, as Danny has mentioned, there is a bit of change in response when your ear height is near the top of the line arrays, but this is the case with any line array. Obviously a taller array would mitigate this, but at the cost of a more visually imposing design. I personally think the existing Line Force design is pretty optimal, particularly in my room which has a moderate height ceiling.

I should make it clear that these speakers sound spectacular when seated. They still sound very good when standing, and it's only because I'm very familiar with the sound that I have noticed the change. No one else that has heard them has even noticed.

I've had a number of experienced audiophiles over to hear my system that have commented that it is among the best (if not THE best) system they have heard. I'm really glad to hear that Danny and company are looking at a new version using the Radian drivers. This speaker concept deserves to be heard by more people.

I’m super happy for you, Jay! And thank you for sharing!!  :dance:

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #185 on: 1 Feb 2023, 02:54 pm »
Sounds like you have no experience with today’s best DSP systems.

Actually, yes I have, and with this very same speaker. Rich Hollis came over with his all digital system and we compared his system with mine in an A/B comparison using matching slopes and filters. His is the only all digital system I can recommend.

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #186 on: 1 Feb 2023, 02:59 pm »
If I can come up with an assembly of dual LT10’s and a single LT2 that’s killer, I’ll let Don and Jay know. And we will listen to them over a bottle of fine bourbon. And I’m sure they will share the results.

If what you have in mind is a line of LM10's crossed to a single tweeter then there is a way to make that work, but the LM10's can't all play the same signal. That will push the acoustic centers too far apart and the vertical cancellation will be horrendous.  You'd have to cross the tweeter to the LM10's on either side of it only and let the remaining LM10's cover lower ranges only.

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #187 on: 1 Feb 2023, 04:27 pm »
Actually, yes I have, and with this very same speaker. Rich Hollis came over with his all digital system and we compared his system with mine in an A/B comparison using matching slopes and filters. His is the only all digital system I can recommend.

Many levels beyond that are possible. If you heard what I use, you would never go back to passive.

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #188 on: 1 Feb 2023, 04:35 pm »
If what you have in mind is a line of LM10's crossed to a single tweeter then there is a way to make that work, but the LM10's can't all play the same signal. That will push the acoustic centers too far apart and the vertical cancellation will be horrendous.  You'd have to cross the tweeter to the LM10's on either side of it only and let the remaining LM10's cover lower ranges only.

What I have in mind is making an assembly of dual LM10’s and a single LM2 operate as 1 homogenous unit that covers 250-20000hz. Then this assembly could be stacked to create line arrays of any height. Just like the BMS 4508, only with a shallower mounting depth. I make in wall speakers. So it’s desirable to have a shallow mounting depth. And in very large rooms, line sources are desirable. But I’ll only do a line source if I can align the acoustic centres of the drivers playing 250-20000.  Much like Wisdom Audio does. Because it’s not possible to make the very best line array if the acoustic centres aren’t aligned. Because in a massive room, you want to achieve a uniform power response across the entire room. So everyone gets a rich, vibrant sound experience no matter where they are.

HAL

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #189 on: 1 Feb 2023, 04:52 pm »
Well have you ever heard a dspMusik 2x8 or dspNexus 2x8 DSP XO? If not, then how do you make that conclusion? 

It has gotten even better since Danny heard it on the Line Force speakers.  The dspNexus 2x8 is to be released before AXPONA 2023.


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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #190 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:00 pm »
Well have you ever heard a dspMusik 2x8 or dspNexus 2x8 DSP XO? If not, then how do you make that conclusion? 

It has gotten even better since Danny heard it on the Line Force speakers.  The dspNexus 2x8 is to be released before AXPONA 2023.

No I haven’t. I was just going off of Danny’s impressions. Because if he heard a demo of what I use, he would be a dedicated DSP man today.

Perhaps Danny needs a fresh demo of the new dspNexus and he will change his mind.

S Clark

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #191 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:12 pm »
Or maybe if you heard what Danny does, you'd change yours. 
You seem very confident that you have the best way to the best sound.   
I may have my doubts about that. 
However, you come to a manufacturers circle to say he doesn't know as much as you,  and he needs to hear the newest stuff that you know more about.   This isn't professional, and you claim to be a pro.  I have my doubts about that as well. 

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #192 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:15 pm »
Or maybe if you heard what Danny does, you'd change yours. 
You seem very confident that you have the best way to the best sound.   
I may have my doubts about that. 
However, you come to a manufacturers circle to say he doesn't know as much as you,  and he needs to hear the newest stuff that you know more about.   This isn't professional, and you claim to be a pro.  I have my doubts about that as well.

Danny doesn’t make electronics, nor has he claimed to. And I’ve never met a man who can give a proper evaluation on what he’s never experienced. Even someone like Danny can’t do that.

S Clark

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #193 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:44 pm »
I saw your rather bare bones website that claimed that you design systems for yachts. Can you provide more detail that can be verified?

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #194 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:54 pm »
Many levels beyond that are possible. If you heard what I use, you would never go back to passive.

Or if you heard my system you may never go back to yours. You can't make claims like that without knowing what you are up against.

What DAC's are you using? Let's start there.

morganc

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #195 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:57 pm »
Or maybe if you heard what Danny does, you'd change yours. 
You seem very confident that you have the best way to the best sound.   
I may have my doubts about that. 
However, you come to a manufacturers circle to say he doesn't know as much as you,  and he needs to hear the newest stuff that you know more about.   This isn't professional, and you claim to be a pro.  I have my doubts about that as well.

Why is our world filled with so many freaking "experts" these days who do not  have much, if any experience?  And Audio especially, why are people always giving their opinion as if fact?  On Amps they have never heard, speakers they have never heard, etc? And then to come onto manufacturer's circles and claim to know more than the manufacturer? Jeez.....Danny is a patient man. 

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #196 on: 1 Feb 2023, 05:59 pm »
What I have in mind is making an assembly of dual LM10’s and a single LM2 operate as 1 homogenous unit that covers 250-20000hz. Then this assembly could be stacked to create line arrays of any height. Just like the BMS 4508, only with a shallower mounting depth. I make in wall speakers. So it’s desirable to have a shallow mounting depth. And in very large rooms, line sources are desirable. But I’ll only do a line source if I can align the acoustic centres of the drivers playing 250-20000.  Much like Wisdom Audio does. Because it’s not possible to make the very best line array if the acoustic centres aren’t aligned. Because in a massive room, you want to achieve a uniform power response across the entire room. So everyone gets a rich, vibrant sound experience no matter where they are.


So a LM10, a tweeter, another LM10, and then stack and repeat? Like a staked MTM, but with woofer on both sides and a tweeter in the middle? And you think that will give you a uniform response?

You are new at this aren't you?

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #197 on: 1 Feb 2023, 06:03 pm »
No I haven’t. I was just going off of Danny’s impressions. Because if he heard a demo of what I use, he would be a dedicated DSP man today.

Perhaps Danny needs a fresh demo of the new dspNexus and he will change his mind.

Maybe you and Rich can come over with your latest models and we can compare?

Rich's system gained a lot of respect from me and I have recommended it many times. So I am not at all opposed to listening and comparing. If I like what I hear then I certainly say so.

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #198 on: 1 Feb 2023, 06:03 pm »
Danny doesn’t make electronics, nor has he claimed to. And I’ve never met a man who can give a proper evaluation on what he’s never experienced. Even someone like Danny can’t do that.

Bring it.

david45

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #199 on: 3 Feb 2023, 03:09 am »
https://piega.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/PIEGA_MLS_2_EN_Datasheet1.pdf

Line sources are getting quite popular or so it seems!!

Can’t wait to get my Line Forces!!  8)