[CMO]

Hi all.

I've read a couple of posts here about the DDA-100 driving less effective speakers just fine, but wanted to ask for you to share more experiences with 80-85 dB speakers if anyone has this?

I've got Mirage M3si (83db) that I absolutely love and sound great in my decent sized (with very high ceiling) living room, and I've really liked what the Nuforce HDP did for them as pre-amp. Surprisingly, the HDP (bought as headphone amp originally) made me sell my 5 times more expensive Copland tube amp (with brand new quality tubes), so I'm neither a stranger to Nuforce, nor afraid of going for equipment that isn't quite as 'statement'. As long as the end result is better, I'm happy. I tend to listen just loud enough for the speakers to really open up, but not any more. I'd say that is moderate levels at most.

[bh46118]

I played my mine through a pair of Pioneer SP-BS41-LR  that I bought on sale this last Christmas.  In a small room the DDA-100 had no problem at all .

Bruce

[viggen]

I doubt it has enough current to drive such a big speaker to make it come alive optimally.  However, give it a try.  Buy it on amazon and use the 30 day return policy.

In terms of loudness, I never have to turn the knob past 60% with Linn Kan that is about 86db 4ohm if I remember correctly.  But, it's a much smaller speaker than the Mirage.

[CMO]

It's tricky here in Sweden to buy and return as they are usually not very helpful even if you want to step up to for instance the HAP/DAC/STA combination that they also sell. I could possibly get it through, but I don't want to risk it if all things point towards failure to start with. If it could work out, I might give it a go.

From the Stereophile review (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1192mirage/index.html) back when they were brand new, one sentence about my Mirage speakers sticks to me: "The overall impedance indicates a fairly easy load to drive, dipping just below 4 ohms only once, at just under 100Hz." (http://www.stereophile.com/content/mirage-m-3si-loudspeaker-measurements)

Still, 83 dB does say something about them also. I've had both the M5 and M1 (not the 'si' versions) and they both really blossomed with powerful amps. In fact, that was when I first moved away from all-tube amplification.

[JLM]

It would help if you could indicate the room size, how far away you listen, types of music you listen to, and provide sound pressure level measurements of how loud you listen.

While the DDA-100 intrigues me it seems to be a real crap shoot when it comes to having enough power for various speakers.  In my experience the capacity of the power supply and how much bass the speaker is capable of are the primary factors in how much body and resolution (imaging and detail) that a particular pairing can produce. 

The amp should always be sized to maintain a commanding grip on the speaker.  I know digital is a different animal, but I'm thinking that the DDA-100 speaker matching issues has something to do with its power supply.

[CMO]

Ok - fair point, JLM. I'll supply what I can:

(1) The room size is 25-27 square meters (270-300 square feet) - almost a four-square shape - and has an open ceiling to our one and a half floor house. This means that the ceiling height is a bit shy of 6 meters/yards at it's highest and half that where the wall folds into the ceiling.  To be fair, the room is part of an open floor plan towards the kitchen and dining room, but I do not think that will have much of an effect given the accoustics and shape of the open floor plan (off to the side at an angle and no open ceiling).

(2) In terms of listening position, I/we sit at about 2-3 meter (7-10 feet) from the speakers for serious listening, i.e. a bit behind the middle of the room, and another meter or so (3-5 feet) back for everyday situations. The positioning depends on the distance between the (bi-polar) speakers, and that depends on the actual equipment used otherwise and thus subject to change/adaptation. 

(3) Unfortunately, I have no SPL measurement I can share, but as it's fairly easy to speak and be heard while my wife and I listen I would estimate somewhere in the 80-85 dB range for active listening. The room is not very dampened but does not feel like an 'echo room' either. It's on the livelier end of the scale for sure, which is how I like it as that helps the speakers to come alive.

(4) Music-wise, I'd say the serious listening is mostly to americana (country/bluegrass/folk-rock and all the off-shoots and in-betweens of this) with a healthy dose of accoustic instruments and strong presenced singers as well as jazz. Sure, I am a huge metal-head also but I almost never play that for the hi-fi experience and in fact mostly listen to such music with head-phones while working. I am in no way a bass-freak in the (no disrespect meant - this is an unfair generalization to help the illustration) American way but my speakers do have a very nice lower region as well - snappy and deep, rather than boomy. I appreciate a delicate and nuanced (or if you prefer to call this 'detailed') sound above anything else. I am very used to live music so accuracy in instrument and voice are key to me. I can live with compromises in regions as long as the overall result comes together as a whole, whatever that means to each of us, but in my case implies balance and soundscape. This is why the DDA reviews spoke to me above e.g. HAP/DAC/STA as the impressions I've seen are that the DDA is - when it works with the speakers - better at those two in particular. As many that prefer a more 'European' sound - and particularly those comming from a serious vinyl background - I have never had a problem with what many more 'American' ears (again - seriously no disrespect meant - we're all different in what we perceive as 'better' or 'more accurate') would view as a midrange that is 'too forward' or an 'overly detailed/analytic' sound.

Those of you that are into headphones might be helped a bit further if I say that I love my AKG K702 for instance, just as much as my Etymotics ER-4s (particularly with the HDP!), and clearly more than the also good HD650 (despite my heavy dose of metal music when listening to headphones and many classifying the HD650 as a better rock/jazz 'phone). I'm staying away from even trying the HD800 to make sure I don't 'have to have them' as I suspect that would be my reaction to them.

Finally, the Mirage 'si' model has a much better grip on the bass than the non-si has, but I still have to accept that the M5 and M1 are what made me move away from tubes in the first place. I didn't find a better price/performance way to get the bass to tighten up as much as I wanted otherwise. The rest of the range (for both the M5 and M1) was brilliant with just a 25W tube amp though, but then again... class A is also a different animal.

[rollo]

The Mirage M3si were my reference speakers for quite a long time. Now using They do need power to perform at their best. The best combo we could come up with was a tubed preamp and SS amps. A match made in Heaven were the Krell KSA series and CAT preamp. Either the KSA 100 or 250. The other classic combo was Classe DR25 with CAT. Yes oldies but still goodies with the Mirage. The CAT preamp was neutral in character which was key. Any quality neutral Preamp would do just fine. You appear to have one so a non issue. However saying that a neutral tubed preamp with SS amps will always be a classic combo for Mirage M3si.
     I would look for an amp with a minimum of 100W/ch. either SS or Hybrid. Are there not any Swiss made SS amps you could demo ? Have fun trying all you can.


charles

[CMO]

Thank you, rollo. It's all starting to feel like I am hoping for too much with just a DDA.

Good to hear you liked your M3si and had the same preference of hybrid or SS rather than all-tube. I've not tried the Krell/CAT as the store I used to work for didn't carry Krell. I've tried some hybrid MacIntosh-based combos with my old Copland pre-amp that were quite nice, but price/performance just wasn't there so I stuck with the temporary SS power-amp I already had (a loaner from work that I eventually bought while I continued my search - and still own some 10-15 years later [!] as we've been moving in and out of Sweden a few times = no permanent house until just now).

Anyhow, it was mindblowing that the Nuforce HDP (which is, after all, a headphone amp+DAC and not really a serious pre-amp) actually made me sell the Copland. That's why I'm tempted to stay within the Nuforce family now that I want to use my headphone amp for just that purpose and get a permanent pre/power amp and dac solution. There are quite a few other options here in Sweden, but I have to be able to defend the choices from a price/performance perspective. A tad better here and there, on particular tracks, and 5-10x the price just doesn't cut it when no longer working with high-end stuff all day. It's about the music and not just the sounds if you break everything down after all. A few brands, such as Nuforce and Wyred4Sound are the only that are hard to get hold of here. Most other things make it to the physical stores where you can try before you buy (or return in 30-days after purchase at least).

Unless anyone would advice me to reconsider, I'll drop the DDA onto the back-burner until I want to get a second set-up for the library or something like that. There's always the HAP-100, DAC-80 and STA-100 to consider as well. It's not like people haven't liked that combo, after all. I understand it is really close to the DDA overall and even better in some regards - particularly in larger rooms and with more difficult speakers.

[John Casler]

As a NuFORCE dealer, I have used the DDA-100 with various speakers.  The most similar to yours would be the VMPS RM-1 (around 89db floorstanders with twin 8" woofers)

The DDA-100 worked quite well with them and had plenty of headroom, but at 80-85db listening levels.

You can assemble the DAC-80 and the STA-100 to offer all the same features, no need for the HAP-100 unless you have analog sources.

[CMO]

Thank you, John. The VMPS are quite a bit more sensitive than my M3si though, so I'm still leaning towards the safer side of the fence (so to speak).

Oh, and about the HAP: I've been told the HAP is a much better match with the STA given the output level difference between the HAP and DAC-80. I haven't been able to listen myself to verify, so I'm going by hearsay.

[John Casler]

It is true that the HAP-100 has 7.8v and the DAC-80 has 4v outputs.

I have used both with the STA-100, but never paid much attention to the displayed output since both were adequate for the listening at the time.