AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: roscoe65 on 18 Sep 2017, 04:12 pm
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I just received my pair of Super 3 HO Monitors from Louis. I had originally sent my Super 3U's to him to be converted to 1.5 status. He didn't really go down that path and upon examining my speakers realized it would be an impractical modification. Instead, he offered to simply make me a new pair of speakers and my old speakers were resold to a happy new owner.
I now own a pair of Level 2 Ebony monitors. The fit and finish is spectacular but I was unprepared for the proportions of the speaker: it is a largish stand mount speaker that simply disappears visually. They replaced a similarly-sized pair of GR Research XLS Encores. Despite their similar sizes (XLS = 12.5" x 8.5" x 12"; Super 3 HO = 16" x 8" x 12.5") the new speaker is much more visually successful. MY SO immediately commented on how good they looked in the living room.
They only arrived Saturday and I haven't gotten a chance to start the break in. I will update as they break in and hope to do a comparison among Omega monitor models (I own Super 3's (RS5 driver update), Super 3 HO's, and SAM's).
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Looking forward to reading your impressions of the Super 3 HO's compared to the SAM. I owned the Super 3i (L2 Ebony as well) and loved their overall sound quality, but in my system they sounded a bit 'thin' - beautiful clarity, staging, etc but lacked the body to make male vocals sound as good as they did with females. The
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Looking forward to reading your impressions of the Super 3 HO's compared to the SAM. I owned the Super 3i (L2 Ebony as well) and loved their overall sound quality, but in my system they sounded a bit 'thin' - beautiful clarity, staging, etc but lacked the body to make male vocals sound as good as they did with females. The
"Thinness" in narrow baffle speakers is pretty common unless it is compensated. My Super 3's have a wide baffle (12" w) that pushes baffle step frequency downward. Combined with desk or shelf mounting )(or stand-mounting close to the wall) they actually produce reasonable midbass. But when we use a narrow baffle, we push the baffle step frequency from about 380hz to 570 hz. Most speaker designers will include baffle-step compensation in the crossover, attenuating the output above the baffle step frequency. Louis chose the additive approach: he brings in the second driver at 500hz to boost the lower frequencies to reduce the drop in output.
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I'm interested in hearing your comparison. I've had the SAMs for 5 months and then a few months ago quietly picked up a pair of super 3 HO monitors. I have been traveling most of the summer so my listening has not been what it was. But for sure some kind of Omega speaker is the best in my system. The 3 HOs are currently on my desktop system. They performed well with the main system. My conclusion is that I probably need the SAM HO monitors and desktops 3s :)
congrats!
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Hi guf! Looks like we have been on a similar path. Still have the SS-8's? After moving to single drivers (Omega) and low wattage class A amplification (Inspire and First Watt), I couldn't be happier. I took a look at a photo of those SS-8's just now. I forgot how beautiful that finish is. Too bad their sound didn't match their appearance for me. But glad I found a path more to my ears' liking!
.......Peter
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How do you think the HO's would work in a 5.1 living room system? My living room isn't enclosed either, it's open to a dining room/kitchen.
I would also be using a sub to blend in with the HO's.
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Pix pix pix please!
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Randy,
I'm also interested on your take between these and the SAMs. Same as what has been said about ferrite vs alnico in general or anything to add?
.....Peter
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Peter - unfortunately my free time has been re-prioritized by my SO - she has a friend from out of country coming to visit for a bit and my work assignments have changed. Turns out spending time and money on new speakers brought out the sore spots of the painting and picture framing that still needed to be done. Combine that with a busy month for concerts and my time to do real comparisons is very compressed at the moment.
That being said, one of my systems will be perfect to compare the two: Tidal HiFi -> Chord Mojo ->RWA Signature 16 -> speakers (with/without stereo subs).
Going to see these guys tonight: http://www.xtheband.com/
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Peter - unfortunately my free time has been re-prioritized by my SO - she has a friend from out of country coming to visit for a bit and my work assignments have changed. Turns out spending time and money on new speakers brought out the sore spots of the painting and picture framing that still needed to be done. Combine that with a busy month for concerts and my time to do real comparisons is very compressed at the moment.
That being said, one of my systems will be perfect to compare the two: Tidal HiFi -> Chord Mojo ->RWA Signature 16 -> speakers (with/without stereo subs).
Going to see these guys tonight: http://www.xtheband.com/
Punk rockin' in NY! Sounds like a fine time!
By the time all the smoke clears, those HO's should be just broken in. :thumb:
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Hooked up a quick test system and started to break in the HO monitors. It's been so long since I've heard brand-new speakers I forgot about the break in. They are pretty tight right now, bass is a little light, and don't really like poor recordings at the moment. They only have a couple hours on them right now so they're still pretty raw and sounding like they are fighting going too loud. I get the feeling they will need a lot more hours until I'm ready to try to balance the subs with them.
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how about some pics!
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how about some pics!
Here's a teaser: The speakers started out all but unlistenable. I put Tidal on repeat, plugged a Chromecast Audio into the amp, and left the house for several hours with the volume turned halfway up. It made a big difference. I think I will need to do this several times to smooth them out and loosen up the bass.
The speakers still sound tight, as if they need to stretch out. I notice two phenomena: they need a bit of volume to open up at all, and they can't take much more volume than that before compressing.
I think I will switch gears soon and connect them to the Marantz AVR and use them for 2.0 video use for a while. At this point I am just trying to get hours on them.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168961)
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Update. After a few days of letting the speaker play on repeat they are loosening up. They are still not 100% (probably have about 40 hours on them now) but are getting there, enough so I can now begin to use them to judge the electronics driving them.
To date, the chain feeding them has been: Tidal Hifi -> Chromecast Audio -> Chord Mojo via optical (Chromecast direct during the day when I am just running speakers in) -> RWA Signature 16 -> Omega Super 3HO Monitors. Cables are nothing to speak of, set up is basic at the moment, subwoofers are off, and the room is untreated.
In my 15' x 22' x 13" (vaulted ceiling) room they play plenty loud using both the RWA and my Fi-design (Oliver Sayes-built) 4wpc 421A amp. Two points thus far:
1. In this room, these speakers do not have enough bass to provide the visceral impact I prefer. However, they do have enough bass for most people, and likely put out more bass than small "subwoofers" common in inexpensive HT systems. I haven't tried these in my smaller room, but in this larger volume space there are only so many miracles a 4" driver can do.
2. While the speakers are nominally 97.5dB, the RWA sounded noticably better than the SET 421A amp. It had perceptibly more drive and may have sounded a little cleaner. Both amps are dead quiet (RWA is battery powered, and the 421A is a pi-filtered IDHT). However, the 421A had better bass than the RWA. The 421A may be able to deliver more balance power into the rising bass impedance of the speakers. The RWA doubles in power into 4 ohms, so it may be delivering more power (up to 32wpc) into the upper bass and midrange than it is into the deep bass. If the impedance rises to 12 ohms in the bass, the amp would only be putting out about 10wpc. Conversely, the 421A is running the 8-ohm taps off its Hashimoto OPT's and may be delivering more bass into the rising LF impedance.
I want to get to about 100 hours or more before I try to start integrating the Rythmik subwoofers. The RWA has a separate set of preamp outputs, so I can run the Omega's full-range off the built-in SS amp and adjust the crossover controls of the Rythmik's. Both speakers are fed from the tube stage of the RWA.
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Do you think the better bass from the 421A amp is due to lower damping? The reason I ask is because I'm experiencing sort of the same thing comparing my First Watt F7 with a Dennis Had SEP hooked up to my CAMs. Both amps are enjoyable in their own ways, but the Had amp has bigger/fuller bass and I think it is because of the lower damping. Anecdotally, the biggest/fullest bass I recall ever getting from my CAMs came via a Pass XA30.8...which contradicts my aforementioned thoughts. Surely, the XA30.8 had the highest damping factor of the 3 amps mentioned, so there must be other factors at play.
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I came home from the park and turned on the system. Holy crap! I must have hit a tipping point in the break in because the speakers now sound twice as big, with fuller bass, a bigger soundstage, and the "desire" to play louder.
I am still playing them with a Red Wine Audio Signature 16 (about 20wpc into 6 ohms), Chord Mojo, fed Tidal via Chromecast Audio. I have not turned on the stereo Rythmik F8 subwoofers yet. I think the Super 3 HO bass will continue to develop. I also found that the RWA amp now sounds better and with fuller bass than the 421A amp. I think as they break in I will see which works better. I should note that the 421A is running off the 8 ohm tap. The 4 ohm tap might be better.
Overall I will state that this system is one I could easily live with forever and not feel like I am missing anything. These monitors provide enough bass for most needs in my largish room, the amp could supply twice the power I need, and the DAC/preamp sound robust and natural. As an added bonus, if I played Tidal offline from my phone, I could have a completely portable, high end audio system that could run for hours with no external power at all.
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There are no updates for more than 3 weeks in this thread.
Would you like to give some additional comments on the speakers? (and comparison to SAM)
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Hi, any update about the HO, I am very interested in knowing a bit more about their perfomance and characteristics with diferent types of music. Having a pair of CAM I am thinking seriously moving forward to the HO, monitor tough.
Thank you!
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The Super 3 HO Monitors are coming along very nicely, but the break in continues to be a long process. They actually change in character (improving and subsequently getting worse and then improving again) as the break in progresses. Here are some consolidated thoughts:
1. Efficiency: They are probably a legit 97 dB efficiency. I can drive them with any amp I own, though some do better than others.
2. Impedance: The impedance definitely drops below 500hz before rising again in the bass region. This is not really a bad thing, since it still stays above 6 ohms most of the time.
3. The second driver adds 3dB when used with a tube amp, and 6dB when driven by a solid state voltage amp. My of my amps (RWA Signature 16) doubles in power into 4 ohms. In the current position in my room with my current music, the RWA puts out too much midbass. I switched back to a 4wpc SET amp and was much happie.
4. The speakers loosen up as time goes on. They are producing much more bass now, though the vocals seem somewhat recessed at the moment (problably from the recordings). Vocals now sound as if they are being given equal weight with the accompanists, rather than being prominently featured on top of them. A lot more subtlety, but mostly in contrast with the single-driver Super 3. Additionally, they still sound a tiny bit truncated on top, but haven't completely broken in yet. The SET definitely has a more extended top end.
5. Most surprising is the inner detail. It really creeps up on you and you literally hear things you haven't head before, but in a much more subtle manner than simply adding a lot of HF detail. You can hear this effect in another room as well.
Break-in system context:
Source: Chord Mojo fed Tidal from Chromecast Audio
Amp(s): RWA Signature 16, battery power only. Oliver Sayes-built 4 wpc 421A SET based on Fi 421A (ohm tap on Hashimoto H203 outputs).
Speakers: Omega Super 3 HO Monitor
I am not one to take food off of Louis' table, but if I already owned a CAM, I would not be moving up to a SAHO Monitor. I think your better bet is to add a pair of bass/midbass modules capable of reaching up to the CAM's. If Louis' new 8" woofer modules work that high I would recommend them, but an alternative is to ask Louis to do custom Rythmik servo woofer modules that would match your speakers.
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A good amount of time has past, how are they sounding now? How many hours would you estimate are on the speakers? Have they stopped changing in character?
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Funny you should mention it. I have been going back and forth among my different Omega speakers. I have put off the RS5 vs. Alnico comparison for now and have focused on the single driver Super 3 (original wide baffle) vs. the Super 3HO (dual driver, narrow baffle).
My review context is Chord Mojo or Schiit Bifrost/MB feeding a Redwine Audio Signature 16 or Fi 421A SET clone. Speakers are more or less in the corners (within 2 feet of both boundaries) of a 15’ x 22’ room.
With both DAC’s and both amps I found the midbass to be too much with the Super 3HO’s. I’m sure that pulling them out into the room would help, but it resulted in a thickening of the sound and made the already dark-sounding RWA sound muffled. It also seemed to lose some of the midrange forwardness that make single driver speakers sound alive.
I swapped in the Super 3 wide baffle speakers with RS5 retrofit drivers. This is slightly (7%) larger than the current Super 3, but turned sideways like the CAM. I’ve only used the 421A amp so far with these. Right off the bat my impression was that they produced about 90% of the bass as the HO models. They sounded lively and dynamic and more balanced than the HO models. However, I noticed dynamic limitations almost immediately. I am unsure if it is the 4.5wpc amp running out of steam or the speaker reaching its bass limitations. The latter is not unlikely; the 421A amp is surprisingly powerful in the bass despite its low power.
I think that while I prefer the essential character of the single driver speaker, I don’t think it can move enough air in this particular room. While the dual-driver speaker does a much better job dynamically, it does not gel with either of the two amps I have used in this comparison. My preference ( and the topic of a future comparison) would be to supplement the single driver speakers with active stereo subwoofers. Ideally this would allow for the ability to high pass the Omega’s to relieve load in the bass, but my subwoofers (Rythmik F8’s) only have low pass crossovers. I’ll need to break out an amp/preamp combo to high pass the speakers.
A last note:
I believe the dual-driver Omega’s are a less than ideal for both of my amps for a couple of reasons. The RWA amp doubles power when impedance is halved and I think it is simply putting out too much power in the mid to upper bass region. The 421A amp already puts out great bass. Being transformer-coupled it couples really well with the single driver, giving it surprising bass. The HO model does develop more bass power, but not enough to warrant the loss of immediacy of the single driver.
That is not to say the dual driver HO is not for me. I just received a NP Amp Camp kit that I think would match really well with the HO speakers. I also have the strong suspicion that high-quality Class D would sound great with these (The Denon HEOS AVR is tempting for a five channel HT setup. It puts out a real world 20wpc or so and has native Tidal support). I would argue that the HO model will work better in configurations suited for conventional speakers, albeit at high efficiency. It would excel as a substitute for a KEF LS50 that can accommodate low power amps. I think you could pair it with almost any Firstwatt amp and be satisfied.
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Thanks for sharing. Interesting to read about your preference to the single driver high passed with active stereo subs and how the HO lose the immediacy of the single driver. I wonder if dropping down the LF driver to 200Hz would help the problem of too much mid bass?
I'll be pairing some super 3 ho xrs soon to an SE84UFO. Have read great things with that pairing and will soon find out for myself. Love all the knowledge on this forum. Looking forward to learning more about your next comparisons with the single drivers and subs.
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Thanks for sharing. Interesting to read about your preference to the single driver high passed with active stereo subs and how the HO lose the immediacy of the single driver. I wonder if dropping down the LF driver to 200Hz would help the problem of too much mid bass?
I'll be pairing some super 3 ho xrs soon to an SE84UFO. Have read great things with that pairing and will soon find out for myself. Love all the knowledge on this forum. Looking forward to learning more about your next comparisons with the single drivers and subs.
I used a SE84UFO with my RS8 monitor speakers before upgrading to SAM HO's. The SE84UFO is a lovely sounding amplifier but didn't have enough juice for my listening style. However what it lacked (for me) in volume, it more than made up in clarity and a very nice 3D soundstage. It actually convinced me to sell my PP tube amp for a 20w Dennis Had SE Firebottle. Are you planning on using a preamp with your SE84UFO?
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I hear you, some folks just need more volume and headroom. I'm using a zrock after my dac/preamp for the digital signal and a zstage after the zp3. I've found increased voltage makes a big difference in density and output with the SE84UFO.I'm also using an omega sub. My current speakers (dayton ps-220) are 96dB and I have no complaints with volume. Generally listen in the high 70 to low 80 decimal range. I'm hoping the the super 3 ho provide better imaging and a flatter response in the upper end. Sorry not trying to hijack this thread.
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...... I have been going back and forth among my different Omega speakers. I have put off the RS5 vs. Alnico comparison for now and have focused on the single driver Super 3 (original wide baffle) vs. the Super 3HO (dual driver, narrow baffle).
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With both DAC’s and both amps I found the midbass to be too much with the Super 3HO’s. I’m sure that pulling them out into the room would help, but it resulted in a thickening of the sound and made the already dark-sounding RWA sound muffled. It also seemed to lose some of the midrange forwardness that make single driver speakers sound alive.
I swapped in the Super 3 wide baffle speakers with RS5 retrofit drivers. This is slightly (7%) larger than the current Super 3, but turned sideways like the CAM. I’ve only used the 421A amp so far with these. Right off the bat my impression was that they produced about 90% of the bass as the HO models. They sounded lively and dynamic and more balanced than the HO models. However, I noticed dynamic limitations almost immediately. I am unsure if it is the 4.5wpc amp running out of steam or the speaker reaching its bass limitations. The latter is not unlikely; the 421A amp is surprisingly powerful in the bass despite its low power.
I think that while I prefer the essential character of the single driver speaker, I don’t think it can move enough air in this particular room. While the dual-driver speaker does a much better job dynamically, it does not gel with either of the two amps I have used in this comparison. .................
A last note:
........ The HO model does develop more bass power, but not enough to warrant the loss of immediacy of the single driver.
That is not to say the dual driver HO is not for me. I just received a NP Amp Camp kit that I think would match really well with the HO speakers. ........... I think you could pair it with almost any Firstwatt amp and be satisfied.
Randy, I know it is not the focus of your current tests but, IIRC, you have SAMHO's also? If I do recall correctly, would you say the same things about them (too much midbass with your amps, loss of single driver character, but more dynamics) or do the Alnicos handle the HO configuration differently?
Regarding the ACA kit you mention... did you get the kit or buy someone's assembled? You may recall that I built and modified a pair and have some experiences I could relate if you are interested. I'm currently running a J2, so your opinion that any of NP's amps would be a good match with the HO's is encouraging.
Thanks.......
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I never got the SAM HO speakers. I was changing too many variables at once and needed to slow down. I would assume that my thoughts about the RS5 models would translate to the Alnico’s but cannot say for certain. The helper driver does come in more than an octave lower in the Alnico model, which should help preserve more of the single driver magic.
WRT Pass, I bought the newly-reissued ACA kit that just came out. It is the version 2 in a single chassis. My thought is I could run a nice little system with a Chord Mojo - ACA - Super 3HO Monitor that would be simple and compact.
But my secondary motive was as a practice run building a Pass amp. In addition to the ACA I also own a board/parts kit for a Firstwatt F3, which I think may be an ideal match for my SAM’s. The F3 is alleged to the the most Triode like of the Firstwatt amps.
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I never got the SAM HO speakers. I was changing too many variables at once and needed to slow down. I would assume that my thoughts about the RS5 models would translate to the Alnico’s but cannot say for certain. The helper driver does come in more than an octave lower in the Alnico model, which should help preserve more of the single driver magic.
WRT Pass, I bought the newly-reissued ACA kit that just came out. It is the version 2 in a single chassis. My thought is I could run a nice little system with a Chord Mojo - ACA - Super 3HO Monitor that would be simple and compact.
But my secondary motive was as a practice run building a Pass amp. In addition to the ACA I also own a board/parts kit for a Firstwatt F3, which I think may be an ideal match for my SAM’s. The F3 is alleged to the the most Triode like of the Firstwatt amps.
Ok, we shall see as I'm gettin' upgraded!
I haven't looked at the differences with the new ACA version/design. If similar to the first, it runs on 19vdc and uses a cheap switcher power brick. I made the switch to a cheap 24vdc power brick and there were improvements in dynamics. It brought them from 6wpc to 8. So I sprung for 24v linear power supplies and was really wowed with the improvement. (You may know that there is a simple bias adjustment to make when changing the input voltage). The only criticism I would make about them is the high end extension was a bit lacking. It makes for warm, no doubt. But still, the imaging and dynamics were excellent.
Fun project. I learned a bit.
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Ok, we shall see as I'm gettin' upgraded!
I haven't looked at the differences with the new ACA version/design. If similar to the first, it runs on 19vdc and uses a cheap switcher power brick. I made the switch to a cheap 24vdc power brick and there were improvements in dynamics. It brought them from 6wpc to 8. So I sprung for 24v linear power supplies and was really wowed with the improvement. (You may know that there is a simple bias adjustment to make when changing the input voltage). The only criticism I would make about them is the high end extension was a bit lacking. It makes for warm, no doubt. But still, the imaging and dynamics were excellent.
Fun project. I learned a bit.
New boards have a different layout, but they are based on the same schematic. The new ACA kits are stereo amps, but they can run bridged as mono amps by plugging in a balanced XLR connection. You can use 19V or 24V switcher supplies.