AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vandersteen Speakers => Topic started by: RandyH on 17 Mar 2017, 11:43 am
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These are my new Vandersteen Quatro CTs. I've had them for a little over a month.
I will write up my listening impressions later.
Randy
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159345)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159346)
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Wow, beautiful. I nearly got that veneer myself, but then decided to splurge and get them painted in Audi Havana Black, which I love. Mine are just about done being dialed in. I can't wait to get them in the next couple of weeks. What are you running them with?
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Hi, Randy.
I very nearly posted the usual "Looking forward to your impressions," (which is sincere btw) when it occurred to me that I have no memory of ever listening to Vandersteen speakers. I had no clue what Quatro CTs were, what sort of drivers, nor configuration. I've read enthusiastic posts, but it hasn't meant much without any personal experience.
Well, first off I'm reading up on your speakers to get an idea of what they are. Then, I'm going to read about the other Vandersteen speakers.
I still look forward to your impressions.
Michael
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I promise you, they're nowhere near fully broken-in. You'll *think* they are, but over time, you'll realize they weren't. I even ran mine hard w/ an IsoTek System Enhancer CD (many hours). Once you can drive them really hard w/ no fatigue you'll know you've reached the end-game. It took a lot longer than I anticipated.
Since we're sharing photos, here's a couple shots of my Quatro CTs (mahogany walnut).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159348)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159349)
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Thanks guys for your input. CTsooner, other components in my system consist of a VPI Aries Turntable, Sony 54000ES SACD player, Meridian 508.24 CD player, Modified Audio Research LS-15 line stage and Bryston 4bsst2 power amp. I also have an Audio Research 100.2 amp I will probably try later after the speakers are finished breaking in. Speaker cables are Transparent Super. All source components are plugged into a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. Various Cardas, Harmonic Tech and Purist Audio Design cabling. So far I have yet to get into streaming but am looking at giving it a try.
I have a lot to say about these speakers...later
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Congratulations. I heard the Quartro/CTs at a local audio shop and in a word, Amazing! I sat absolutely mesmerized (apt description) for about an hour, not moving, and have never heard anything quite like them. At times the music seemed to be coming from all directions and I thought there was almost too much musical 'information' for me to process. Really, really something. Certainly would be an end of upgraditis speaker for me.
Cheers,
Lester
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Another tip (before you finalize your impressions)...this is particularly relevant given the integrated subs in the Quatros...
Download the test tone tracks from http://realtraps.com/test-cd.htm and burn them to a CD. Walk through the tones (in one Hz increments, starting at 10 Hz) and listen for things in your room that resonate. You'll be surprised about what is rattling when you play music: windows, bookshelves, pictures on walls, knick-knacks, etc. That wooden trunk you see in my photo is particularly noisy - between the solid wood construction, the ratios of hight / width / length, the weight of the lid, and that damn metal latch, it sings like a fat lady. Small sticky-back felt pads will become your new best friend (and the cheapest tweak you'll ever do to your system). If you didn't use powered subs before your installed your Quatros, this exercise is well worth the 30 minutes invested.
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That's great advice about listening to what else in the room is moving, lol. I LOVE the Quatro's. I"ve heard them so many times that I already know how great it will sound in the room. My Treo's crushed it other than the base and a spec in the upper mids and the CT version Quatro's take care of both of those.
So glad you guys are loving them. I have never heard of any Vandy owner switching to another brand and not missing the Vandersteen's. That's ultra rare in high end audio. I do know a few folks who have come back after straying. I never loved them as my old dealer never knew how to set up any speaker and I didn't realize it fully as I always set things up myself at home and they always sounded so much better than in the store. I went to buy another pair of PRoacs and ended up wanting Vandersteen's as did my dad and brother. I was shocked at what I heard. The room filled with real music and not components. The sound was as coherent as Maggies or Quads that I've always enjoyed. I never 'heard' the bass or the high or the mids. I was sitting a few rows back in orchestra. I never understood folks who want to sit 'on stage' with the musicians. That's not how we go listen to music, lol.
They get the micro and macro details correct. Their drivers are more pistonic that most others and that's why they are always in phase. They literally move like a microphone does. I like that, but in the end, it's all about them getting the soundstage correct. Big or small, however it was recorded, is what you will get.
I'll be shocked if your impressions are darn close to what I have shared.
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Thank you nrenter for you advice. I did have a single REL Storm subwoofer in my system before I got the Quatro's so I am familiar with various rattlings in my room. I was only able make things shake when I turned the volume up real loud and played some very low bass tones. I will take your suggestion. It will be interesting to hear. My dealer set up the speakers for me and tuned the bass using the Vandertones test disk. Frankly I just sat back and observed all of their activity and didn't pay very close attention to what they were actually doing. I wish now that I have asked more questions and followed their process a little closer. Given that there may be occasions where I may want or need to move my speakers, or just experiment with locations, I am not at this time very confident in my ability to do this tuning process myself. Although I do have the Radio Shack meter and the instructions that Vandersteen provides seem very clear, until I go through the process with a successful outcome, I remain a little cautious about experimenting with speaker locations. Clearly, the setup process for these speakers is unlike anything else I have ever experienced with a speaker....but they are still so new and so different from any other speaker I have ever owned. As detailed as the process is, it's not rocket science and I am sure I can become comfortable with this tuning process.
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Randy,
One of the settings that can also be adjusted is the input impedance on the crossover. What amp are you using, what is the input impedance and what did the dealer set it to? It is ok to go one step up or down if you can't set it to match the input impedance exactly. This will result in a change in the overall bass level.
I would wait a couple months until the speakers are broken in and you have become completely familiar with the sound. At that point you can consider experimenting.
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Thanks for that information. I do know that the input impedance was set correctly for my amp. I looked it up myself and watched as they set the dip switches.
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What amp are you using?
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Beautiful speakers Randy. What finish is that?
I heard a couple pairs of Vandersteens in Atlanta last year with some AR amps. Incredible sounding.
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The Vandersteen directions for setup are pretty good. There's a few things that, when explained, makes things much easier.
First, you really need to make yourself a spreadsheet to help keep track of things. Something like this...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159542)
Second, don't touch pots #9, #10, and #11. They're too close to the crossover point. Just leave them alone. Don't do it.
Third, it helps to conceptually if you think about the listed pot frequency as the high-point of a bell curve (and changing a pot will impact the frequency response of AT LEAST the pot above it and the pot below it). Start with the pot associated with the frequency of largest deviation, change the frequency response by only about 1/3rd of what you think is necessary, and the remeasure all frequency bands. Repeat. You may go back to the same pot, you may tackle a different pot. Let the measurements guide you.
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I am using a Bryston 4bsst2 power amp. I also have an Audio Research 100.2 in storage that I may at some time swap in to the system but the current setup sounds so good that I have not been tempted to do so. The finish on the speakers is zebra wood.
Thank you nrenter for you detailed information about tuning the bass. I think the dealer had a chart with him similar to your spreadsheet where he recorded measurements but I don't think his tuning process was as comprehensive as yours. Also he didn't leave the measurements with me. Just out of curiosity I think I will try taking the measurements as they are now just to see if I understand how to use the sound meter. I may have more questions.... I am a little disappointed that the dealer didn't take the initiative to show me more of the details...but I should have asked more questions and insisted that I understood the process before they left. I suppose I could get him back out here to do it for a fee or maybe I could go in to the dealer showroom and have them walk me through the process there.
I don't mean for my ignorance regarding the bass tuning process to overshadow the fact that these are very special speakers. I marvel every day as I listen to these speakers. They have truly transformed my music collection and my listening experience. Details to follow....
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No need to call the dealer...I'm more than happy to help (as we discussed, I'm "down the street" in Flo Mo).
It's best to have 2 people involved when setting up the low end - one to watch the meter in the listening position (and to flip between the test tones), one to fiddle with the pots. I did it on my own and had to rig my iPhone to watch the meter (FaceTime'ing my laptop) while I adjusted the pots.
I'm the kind of person that needs to know how to do things myself. If I can't teach someone else how to do it, I really don't know how to do it. That's why I was never really satisfied with my analog front end until I could confidently set-up my table (and custom-build protractors using Visio to help others).
For now, just concentrate on really breaking in those drivers. I'm sure the low-end sounds *emotionally* awesome. In a few months when you want some "peace of mind" that your low-end is *logically* awesome, give me a shout.
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You have now turned this thread into something very special. Thanks so much. I'm about to have Johnny at Audio Connections set up my new Quatro's and I want to see all of this and learn myself. This is just an awesome and informative thread. Thanks soooo much. Pete
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You're in good hands with Mr. Rutan. I learned from the best.
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Come join us in North Texas CTsooner. We can have a Quatro get together...and thank you nrenter for your offer of assistance. I think it would be fun and informative to go through this process with someone else. More significantly it would be fun to just listen to some music. I will definitely take you up on your offer. BTW, I live at Robson Ranch.
I am very isolated in this hobby. With all of my other interests I have buddies with whom we can share and participate in our common interests. However, when I mention to my friends that I am an audiophile, most people look at me like I have a bird on my head. But, this has been the case most of my audio hobby life. It has not diminished my passion for music and good sound but I do wish sometimes that I knew others who could relate. My wife is very tolerant and encouraging. In fact she went with me to the dealer to listen to the Quatro and immediately said "we have got to have these speakers"! I don't know whose smile was the biggest; mine or the dealer. Although she enjoys music, she is not an enthusiast audiophile.
My other major hobby is photography. In this pursuit, I am a member of a photography club and have a number of friends with whom I visit regularly to shoot, talk about cameras, lighting, post processing, printing etc. We enjoy sharing and participating in this hobby. Sometimes I wish it was that way with audio but I have found that forums like this one and some of the others I visit can and have become somewhat of a virtual community. I have learned so much through these exchanges and have enjoyed the sharing of information that takes place. Like most people in this hobby I have a lot I want to learn more about. Likewise, I think I do have experience and knowledge that I can share with others. This give and take is at the core of enjoying any hobby.
Thanks to all who have responded to this thread. I appreciate your input, recommendations, critiques and observations.
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nrenter, thanks again for the suggestion to check for rattles. It was very revealing. Although I thought I knew where the all were what I didn't factor in is that in addition to the new speakers I have a new cabinet. It is the Salamander Synergy system. While it is a very sturdy rack the side panels just slide loosely between the two end posts. They rattle like crazy at about 36hz. For now I have stuck a few scraps of thick paper between the post and the panel and it has seemed to fix it. Will replace this with some felt pads soon and try to try to tighten those side panels in that groove. As you can see from the photo those side panels are right next to the sub. I don't think I would have ever caught this myself just listening to music.
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When I first got my 5As the room would shake at 42 Hz. It was only after I had the room treated that it was controlled.
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Not to crap on this thread even more, but I wish Vandersteen (or his dealers) would offer a Quatro/5/7 set-up pack that included:
- Digital sound pressure meter
- Small tripod for digital sound pressure meter
- Vandertones CD calibrated to said digital sound pressure meter
- Laser alignment tool
- Tape measure
- Roll of 2" painter's tape
- Sharpie marker
- 6 to 8 felt mover's sliders
- Graduated bubble level (to replace the spacer tilt-back technique)
- CD to test for room rattles + help break in speakers
- 10 metal floor protectors (3 for each primary spike, 2 for each stabilizing spikes)
- 4 or 5 sheets to track room response measurements
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RandyH,
Absolutely gorgeous speakers. Really striking veneer that compells one's attention, I'd have a hard time closing my eyes to listen.
nrenter,
I would think any dealer worth his salt should come to the customer's home and set them up properly to begin with. And offer advice in the event the original owner needed to rearrange the listening space, possibly due to WAF issues. Just my .02, FWIW.
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nrenter...A setup kit would certainly be handy. I doubt if those items would be very expensive and it seems like a reasonable thing to include with a speaker...especially one in which setup is so critical. Also, this would the an excellent subject for a youtube video.
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Randy, I"d love to meet up. Maybe when I'm in Dallas next. I get down there for the OU/TX game every couple of years. I am heading to Columbus OH for the Ohio state/OU Game this year so I won't get down to Dallas I don't think. I think my Juice Plus convention is close to that date too so I can't go on too many junkets in the Fall in fairness to the wife, lol. Plus the MS is slowing me down a spec in regards to traveling on my own for long periods of time, lol. Would be fun though.
Yes, Johnny and Carlos do a great install, that's for sure. They travel all the way to CT for my installs and I know that they'd gone upwards of 5 hours away to help customers.
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Randy,
One of the settings that can also be adjusted is the input impedance on the crossover. What amp are you using, what is the input impedance and what did the dealer set it to? It is ok to go one step up or down if you can't set it to match the input impedance exactly. This will result in a change in the overall bass level.
I would wait a couple months until the speakers are broken in and you have become completely familiar with the sound. At that point you can consider experimenting.
Guys, you have to be careful in the adjustments, as moving the switch settings up or down one setting should NOT be done on the Quatro through the 7's. On the 2wq and any speaker this is fine, but the Quatro, Five and Seven, UP is OK, but DOWN is NOT a good idea and as it raises distortion.
Recap, UP is ok, Down is not for the Quatro through 7's.
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Guys, you have to be careful in the adjustments, as moving the switch settings up or down one setting should NOT be done on the Quatro through the 7's. On the 2wq and any speaker this is fine, but the Quatro, Five and Seven, UP is OK, but DOWN is NOT a good idea and as it raises distortion.
Recap, UP is ok, Down is not for the Quatro through 7's.
What you are saying is not correct. In fact, if you look in the manual it says that if your impedance is between 2 values use the lower one.
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Guys, you have to be careful in the adjustments, as moving the switch settings up or down one setting should NOT be done on the Quatro through the 7's. On the 2wq and any speaker this is fine, but the Quatro, Five and Seven, UP is OK, but DOWN is NOT a good idea and as it raises distortion.
Recap, UP is ok, Down is not for the Quatro through 7's.
Not true or accurate.
I have absolutely and safely used a lower impedance setting with my 5A's.
The user manual says using the lower impedance is acceptable.
George
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Not true or accurate.
I have absolutely and safely used a lower impedance setting with my 5A's.
The user manual says using the lower impedance is acceptable.
George
Guys, the manual says that if you fall between, go to the lower setting. This is correct, but don't go below that setting. If someone goes below THAT setting, you will probably incur expensive mid-bass damage. I promise you that I am getting this info from a source who knows and has seen the damage.
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Guys, the manual says that if you fall between, go to the lower setting. This is correct, but don't go below that setting. If someone goes below THAT setting, you will probably incur expensive mid-bass damage. I promise you that I am getting this info from a source who knows and has seen the damage.
Let's leave this up to the speaker owner and the dealer.
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Guys, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I asked Richard about this:
Hi Pete,
Setting the high-pass correctly on the Quatro, 5, 5A/Carbon and Seven is important for several reasons, if fact a special section is offered on how to know the high-pass is correct at 100Hz if the input impedance is not known. First, the phase and amplitude response between the mid-bass driver and the sub-woofer section are only linear when set at 100Hz +10 -10. Second, the mid-bass driver in all three models use very light weight 2 layer V.C. for fast, accurate response and have limited excursion. Lowering the impedance one setting will most often lower the crossover frequency by one octave to 50Hz causing a huge overlap and four times the excursion. One would want to know why that much error is needed or desired or if the eleven band EQ was properly done in the first place. Over driving the mid-bass driver in this fashion will cause damage as the mid-bass driver is the only driver DC coupled to the customers amplifier and at risk of driver bottoming and V.C. over heating. How long it will take to damage these very expensive drivers depends on music material, how loud (very subjective) and the amount of error, ie: 50,60,70Hz etc. In the end it is your choice how you use them and how much risk is reasonable but this kind of damage is not warranted and very easy to identify. Going higher with the high-pass has no damage risk but again one would want to know why it is needed. Better to find the real problem and fix it than to mess with the speaker setup.
Best,
Richard Vandertseen
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I think it is time to move on. No one suggested setting the crossover too low or too high. You felt the need to correct something that wasn't said. Then, you made several conflicting comments.
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Hi nrenter,
Thanks for sharing your spreadsheet layout. Can you also share what the significance of "measured", "targets", and "reference" are?
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"Reference" is the in-room response of the Vandertones CD (from a 70 dB reference level)
"Target" is the target in-room response (based on the Vandersteen setup procedure)
"Measured" is the measured in- room response post-EQ
Remember, you're not trying for a flat response. You just want to tame the peaks.
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One other thing to check...make sure the rear spike is wrenched-in tight (the one w/ the spacer washers). Mine were not (my fault) as my reclaimed wood floors have a lot of movement / variance and I used a few turns to ensure consistency - bad idea. Once tight, the bass output changed such that I tweaked the Q (contour) from about 7 1/2 to 6 1/2.
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One other setup tip direct from Richard himself (https://forum.vandersteen.com/topic/232-adjusting-tilt-with-a-laser-level/):
Use the laser to point at a "X" on a piece of cardboard in the listening position 8 inches above your ear height. Use whatever amount of washers on the rear spike to get the laser on the X exactly. Do the same for the other speaker which will automatically compensate for the floor problems.