Odd problems with Musicmatch Jukebox and MP3 compatibility

Rob Babcock · « **on:** 23 Jul 2003, 10:37 pm »

This is really odd- the MP3's I burned onto CD-R before I got MM would play on a Panny DVD deck in the house but not my Pioneer Elite. Now, with MM, every disc I've burned works flawlessly in my Pioneer but not a single one will play in the Panny!

I've tried discs burned using MM on two different computers, both nearly new, each with a different brand of burner. The software is the newest version and the firmware/drivers are up to date.

Incidentally, the MM discs play basically right on an old Apex a buddy has, except that about 5% of the tracks have the first second clipped off. Those Apex's are flaky though, so I attribute that too the deck.

So I guess my question is just how compatible or universal MP3 is. Is it just a crap shoot whether your disc will play on a given car deck or CD player? Or is something wrong with some of the hardware/software I've used?

I'm new to using MP3, so any advice is welcome.

Thanks.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 06:55 pm »

Some players play MP3 files , some only play wave files. Try burning it as a wave file and then try your other player again.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 07:38 pm »

If a deck says "MP3" or "WMA" on the front, tho, you'd think it would play something other than WAV files...certainly I know the Panny will play an MP3; I've played MP3's burned on 2 different PC using software other than MMJ and it works fine.

I will try to use MMJ to burn a disc of WAV files, but that wouldn't really help much, I don't think. You'd still be stuck with just 80 minutes of music. Anyway, IMO, Nero is much superior to MMJ for burning WAV files.

One last note: at least on the two rigs in my place, MMJ does a pretty mediocre job of level matching volumes. Especially compared to how flawlessly Nero level matches WAV files. Have you noticed this, WitchDoctor, or do you use the volume matching?

Thanks for the help. This is certainly uncharted territory for me!

witchdoctor · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 08:06 pm »

Believe it or not I have stopped using CD's. All of my music is ripped on to my HTPC for home use. It gets transferred to a Creative Labs Zen 60 GB player for portable use with my Sennheiser 600 cans and an FM transmitter for use in cars. I have my ENTIRE collection available all the time. Awesome concept huh?

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 08:28 pm »

That is a wicked concept, WD. A couple of us had a long running discussion about just such a system here a couple months back. I'd love to set up a music server with all my stuff on it. I was thinking of using a lossless compression scheme, but I'll admit that my MP3's (ripped at the highest VBR setting) sound way better than they have any right to, and better than I expected. My idea would be to have a touchscreen to run the whole shooting match.

What type of user interface do you use? Just plain old MusicMatch Jukebox?

I began to think by your system that maybe you'd never burned a disc of MP3 on MM to use on a DVD deck. It does suck that dragging and dropping into a playlist only works on a computer, but my workaround for numbering is fairly painless.

BTW, what soundcard do you use? I know you posted it before but I can't find it. You use a digital out to a GW Labs upsampler feeding and ART DI/O, right? Are you pretty happy with the combo? Does your Dio ever lose lock like I've heard happens with some CD players?

witchdoctor · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 08:51 pm »

I use plain old MM Jukebox and am open to suggestions. My HTPC is also my DVD player so that's a moot point. I use the M-Audiophile soundcard.
I do use the GW DSP to the Mensa with Bolder digital cables and 1 bybee
that goes into the Mensa. I just ordered another bybee for the DSP.
The key to this whole creation is the DFX plug in. It takes MP3 sound to another level when used judiciously.
What are the VBR settings? Mine are set at 60 because I didn't know what it's for. Will a change of settings make a big difference?
Thanks

witchdoctor · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 08:54 pm »

PS I love the set-up and the Mensa never loses the lock because I have it set at 96k.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 09:15 pm »

You may be asking the wrong guy!

The VBR is "variable bit rate", rather like the video encoding DVD uses. Tough passages and demanding parts are allotted more bits and the bitrate is lowered for "the easy stuff". My assumption is that setting the range up to 360 will cause the encoder to encode at the highest bitrates; this will yeild less songs per GB, but better quality. I still get almost 100 songs on an 80 min CD, so that's pretty good. If I rest the cursor over a song in My Documents, it lists most of my VBR-ripped songs as being 450-650 kbps, and files up to 4 MB in length. So unless I'm all wet (a distinct possibility!

) the VBR setting ratched up to the limit should be about the best sound.

I just may have to buy the DFX plugin, although I don't need it yet as my PC isn't hooked up to my main audio rig. But after reading about your rig, it will be soon!

Again, I'm new to using MMJ, so it's all a brave new world for me. I've burned some really cool high bitrate MP3 favorites discs, including a 92 track Clancy Brothers disc and one 65 song Chris Isaak disc. Both sound really good played back on my Pioneer Elite DV-45-A. It seems to play MP3's burned on MMJ without a hitch.

I've got the new Deluxe SureThing labling software to crank out CD labels and jewel cases, too. Quite the music factory! I'll concede, though, that most of the time I use Nero Express & Wave Editor to burn 80 min discs of regular wave files. Partly for s/q reasons and partly for compatability- all players I've ever tried will play a disc burned on Nero.

This computer deal for audio rocks!

witchdoctor · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 09:47 pm »

I just A/Bed ripping with VBR set at 100% vs. 320 kbs.
320 sounded much better in my room.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 Jul 2003, 10:12 pm »

I think the results are highly dependant on the type of music used, too. My initial results using the 320 kbps for classical music yielded pretty crappy sound, especially piano and cello.

Again, I'm just getting started here. I haven't really got it all scienced out yet.

JackStraw · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 01:20 am »

Hi guys. I've a bit of a story to tell that I think fits in best on this thread.

I'm traveling, but I had a highspeed connection over the weekend. I downloaded DFX Lite (http://www.fxsound.com) for Windows Media Player to give it a shot with the 160kbps MP3s that I have on my laptop for use while traveling. I have a pair of crappy Sony earbuds that I use when I'm on the road.

When I first tinkered with the settings for DFX, I didn't really notice much benefit. The Lite version only allows a MAX of "5" on each setting, and sliding around didn't seem to be doing much. So, I just set things up with Fidelity and Dynamic Boost on "5" and the others off. I kicked back and listened to some Bela Fleck as I tinkered around on the web.

After a half hour or so, I called up the DFX controls to turn it off. After about a one second delay, the sound faded considerably. I adjusted the volume back to compensate for the level drop, and the music was just flat out hard to listen to at that volume. Amazing.

Several of the MP3 sets that I have on my laptop are live Grateful Dead shows. I tried DFX on those recordings, and I've got to say that this blew some life into some very flat recordings. Very fun stuff, and DFX seems to be PERFECT for this application. I certainly don't feel like the audiophile purity police will hunt me down for applying DSP to inherently flawed recordings...

And, this was without maxing the settings on DFX and without using "headphone processing" -- whatever that means it's only available on the pay version.

Thanks, WD for turning me on to DFX. Now that I've found this, I think that it's probably worth considering some Etymotics headphones to replace these Sonys (shoot, one of my cats opened up one of the wires a while back anyway) and/or an M-Audio Sonica (or equivalent) to feed the empty Coax input on my MSB.

I wonder whether a laptop on a wireless LAN could play MP3s hosted on a hardwired desktop via the LAN... hmmm.

I don't suppose that anyone can really answer that question, I'll have to try it. But, a couple of questions that can probably be answered here...

1) What are the advantages of MusicMatch vs. Windows Media Player? I might give a whirl for kicks anyway.

2) Do you guys use settings above "5" on DFX? That's the limit set for the Lite version.

3) What is entailed in "headphone processing"? What special tricks does that allow you to do?

I figure that once I get on another highspeed line I'll try MusicMatch and download buy the full version of DFX to find out for myself.

mgalusha · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 01:48 am »

Rob,

What bit rate are you using in MM to encode your MP3's for burning to CD-R? Some of the players won't handle anything above 256 or VBR encoded files. What encoder library is MM using? I know that some of them handle VBR differently.

I use Easy CD-DA and LAME for making MP3's and Monkey's Audio (APE) for stuff I really care about. But I only play them via a computer, so compatibility isn't an issue.

Mike

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 02:14 am »

That could be the problem, Mike. I have no idea "how" MusicMatch encodes. My Pioneer Elite plays all of 'em, even the highest rate VBR, without a hitch. It's just the cheap Panny that won't.

My brother bought a Pioneer DVD player for $90 at Wal-Mart a couple days ago that will play JPEG discs, WMA & MP3; it'll even play stuff ripped with a trial of Nero that my Elite won't play.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 02:36 am »

Hi Rob,
I use the same to settings you do. Dynamic boost is set to 5 and Fidelity is set to 4. Everything else is off. I have not tried the headphone yet.
It is amazing when you turn it off and A/B, in my room it sounds like you put blankets over the speakers. I understand their is a wireless plug in that I just bought that will plug into any headphone jack anf broadcast FM to your receiver or car stereo. I'm glad you tried DFX.
Doc

bubba966 · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 06:00 am »

Rob, what's the build date on your 45A?

Maybe you should take it in and get a Firmware update done on it. It's got a 3 year Firmware updgrade warantee on it.

That might fix your problem.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 06:58 am »

Hmmm...never thought of that Brian. What, you just take it back to the dealer and have 'em send it in?