AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => All Solid State => Topic started by: SoundSound on 24 Apr 2017, 01:52 pm
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Dear Audiophiles! :)
I am looking for a power amplifier with balanced circuit topology to replace Acurus in my modest Hi-Fi setup:
Mac mini (USB3 output) -> Singxer SU-1 ->
Yggdrasil DAC (AES/EBU XLR input) ->
Primare PRE30 preamplifier (AES/EBU XLR input) ->
Acurus A250 power amplifier (RCA input) ->
Monitor Audio RS-6
Any info/advice is very much appreciated. Please chime in! :)
P.S. I am considering Lindell AMPX power amplifier, but not sure if it is a true balanced/differential design…
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Very few are actually differential input to output, with balanced connections. As I understand it these are:
AVA DVA700
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149749.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149749.0)
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Off the top of my head:
Channel Island Audio amps (prices/wattages vary, if ordered with XLR outputs)
Class D Audio SDS amps (about $600, various wattages)
Schiit Vidar ($700 USD, stereo 100 watts, not yet released)
Temple Audio mono-blocks ($660 USD, 70 watts, if ordered with XLR output)
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SoundSound, you have not posted your budget for a balanced amplifier.
I used to have a BAT VK250 which was very nice and balanced. However, not knowing your budget a new one might be to expensive.
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A fully balanced amplifier circuit:
1] adds to the design challenges.
2] adds to the cost.
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Son of Ampzilla II = "Fully balanced input-to-output with full four-quadrant differential push-pull feedback from both sides of the speaker."
I have one of these and just love it. Using it with the Tortuga LDR balanced version pre with the balanced tube buffer. Magic.
http://www.sst.audio/son-of-ampzilla/
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three letters ........... B A T !!
http://balanced.com
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Pass Labs are also fully differential end-to-end. The 0.5 series are a bit warmer in the mids, the 0.8 series a bit more linear and with a bit lower noise floor. The XA versions are more heavily biased into Class A operation, if your speakers are sensitive enough not to need extreme amounts of power and you are comfortable with the somewhat less efficient operation. (And it does looks like your speakers are a bit more sensitive than is typical.)
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Thank you, thank you all very much indeed, dear “brothers-in-sound”! :)
True, I did not specify any price range in hope I would get from your responses some ideas what you feel to be a reasonable expense for my setup… :scratch:
I was budgeting for up to 3K new, but I see at least two excellent variants for around 3.5K (DVA700 and Son of Ampzilla II), and a few even more expensive stellar offerings from Pass Labs (XA30.8; XA30.5 - discontinued, unfortunately) and BAT (VK-225SE !!!).
Let us draw the line at 3.5K and go from here! :)
By the way, are there any widely accepted budgeting guidelines for building source - amplification - speakers Hi-Fi setups? Something like 30% - 30% - 40% ? :scratch:
I was looking into class D amplifiers and saw, what I consider to be a serious limitation, that even the best of them have Frequency Response up to 35 - 50 KHz only… :(
Schiit Vidar (very friendly priced at $700 per box): what do we know about it? Could you please explain what “dual mono to the transformer design” means? “Buy two and connect them with balanced XLRs to a pre-amplifier for a pair of monos that’ll drive 400 wpc into 8 Ohms.” - sounds very good indeed! We need to wait a bit for them…
I must confess, I have never heard any of the AVA amps (in my neck of the woods way up North we have a very limited supply of quality components). Could you please help me to find the full specs of DVA700? Is it a hybrid tube/transistor design? I see nothing published on the website, unfortunately enough, and am wondering why this is the case… Have they anything to hide?! :scratch:
And last, but not least, Son of Ampzilla II, 2017 TAS Editors' Choice Award winner! Excellent recommendation, Randy! Are you driving a pair of Roman Audio Centurion Loudspeakers with it? If my memory serves me well, they are quite sensitive at 93 dB… Do you believe it would be a good match for my basic Monitor Audio RS-6? I have a feeling my next upgrade should be the Loudspeakers… :)
Thank you very kindly, my dear friends! I appreciate your help very much indeed, believe me. In my situation, I will have to make my final decision based largely on your recommendations. :)
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I still have the Roman Audio speakers, but they have been replaced by amphion 3LS, a very nice speaker made in Finland. In regard to the Son of Ampzilla II and your Monitor speakers, I am not familiar with them and can't say how they would work together, but an excellent amp should work well with any speakers, I'd guess, assuming they have enough power. The SOA lit up the Roman audio pair like technicolor before I had the amphions, and are doing the same with them.
I will send you a P.M. concerning AVA. (all good.)
Randy
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I believe the Modwright amps are fully balanced and sound great as well.
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Take a look at my review of the DVA 700 in the AVA circle that I just posted. It is a great amp for the price. You can also find a used Pass X250 for about $3000. Both are fully balanced. A Parasound A21 is also balanced. I own both the Pass and A21.
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I must confess, I have never heard any of the AVA amps (in my neck of the woods way up North we have a very limited supply of quality components). Could you please help me to find the full specs of DVA700? Is it a hybrid tube/transistor design? I see nothing published on the website, unfortunately enough, and am wondering why this is the case… Have they anything to hide?! :scratch:
I've been dealing with Frank since the late '80's. Sensible no-nonsense guy. He often doesn't publish standard specs because he says they often don't look in the right direction. I've never bought his super-expensive stuff but his least costly stuff is really good. You'd have to spend a LOT more to get better sound.
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SoundSound, the DVA 700 is all Solid State. The DVA 850 mono blocks are hybrids. The 850's sound awesome.
If you want to know spec's, give Frank a call. His customer service is second to none. His gear is built to last. However, if you are looking for audio jewelry, you should look else where. There are no fancy chassis or lights.
I preferred my old Pass X250 to the DVA 700 even though the 700 did some things better but that does not keep me from recommending the 700. At $3700, it is hard to beat, plus is has a 30 day money back guaranty.
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I was budgeting for up to 3K new, but I see at least two excellent variants for around 3.5K (DVA700 and Son of Ampzilla II), and a few even more expensive stellar offerings from Pass Labs (XA30.8; XA30.5 - discontinued, unfortunately) and BAT (VK-225SE !!!).
Note that the Pass XA30.5 routinely sells used for under $3k. There was one listed on Agon yesterday for $2.8k, and I've seen $2.5k in the past. If you were set on new because of warranty concerns, be aware that Pass Labs service is fantastic. While they only advertise 3 year warranties, I've never actually heard of anyone that wasn't able to have their amp serviced regardless of age. (My amps were purchased used, and I had one of the face-plates replaced outside of the 3 year mark.)
Having said that, you should audition whatever strikes your fancy and go from there. All of the proffered recommendations in this thread are worth considering, but suggestions and reviews can only take you so far!
(I should acknowledge that my system evolved into a fully differential end-to-end configuration because I pursued two pieces of gear that many feel sound best on the differential inputs/outputs - my Pass amps and Auralic Vega DAC. I didn't otherwise have an identified reason - long cable runs, strong EMI/RFI, etc. - to prefer a differential vs. single-ended system design. I do happen to appreciate the mechanical interface afforded by XLR connectors, however.)
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If you were set on new because of warranty concerns, be aware that Pass Labs service is fantastic.
I will second that. My dad had the LCD screen go bad on his Threshold T3. I called Pass and he actually told me which current replacement to use as it's the same as what they use now. Now that's service considering the T3 is from ~1994
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Yes, Pass has great customer service. They are always willing to help when you call. I have had no issues with my X250 amp. But it will give you a double hernia if you try and move it around by yourself.
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Thank you, thank you all very much! :)
In my mind, the power amp is a backbone of the system, and the process of selecting one should be exhaustive.
I would definitely prefer to go with a brand new box (this unbelievable smell of a brand new piece of electronics…), and warranty is certainly very important as well, especially for us, Canucks…
So far I see two contenders: DVA700 and SoA II. Do you believe Schiit Vidar should also be considered, please? Are they even in the same league, I wonder? :scratch:
Please chime in! :)
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Other amps you may want to consider are the AVA 400R and 600R Hybrid amps. They can be built with XLR. It will not be truly balanced however. The Van Alstine R series amps are great. I prefer them over the DVA 700. They have totally different sounds and you can tube roll to tailor the sound. The 700 is darker and warmer sounding which I prefer but the R series are more musical with better bass, detail and they are more holographic. The R series and 700 are both great amps, just different flavors.
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No wonder you like them: AVA FET Valve 600R is the 2016 TAS Editors' Choice Award winner! :)
Has anybody had a chance to listen to Schiit Vidar at AXPONA? Impressions? :scratch:
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No wonder you like them: AVA FET Valve 600R is the 2016 TAS Editors' Choice Award winner! :)
Has anybody had a chance to listen to Schiit Vidar at AXPONA? Impressions? :scratch:
There is not a chance in hell that the Vidar at $699 will compete with a 600R and the DVA 700. However, having not heard one, I would not doubt that it sounds good, as Schiitt makes some nice gear.
I will catch some flac for the above comment
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Perhaps, we should have a listen first? They have been known as big “disruptors” of the market… :)
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Perhaps, we should have a listen first? They have been known as big “disruptors” of the market… :)
A listen for sure, but I have been disappointed with budget priced gear claiming to best much higher priced gear for the most part. I am sure that those mono blocks sound great for their price and they may perform above their price point. What I have found when pairing budget gear with gear that is way above in price that the lower priced gear is the weakest link and it is exposed. So call me a little skeptical. Of course I could be all wrong 8)
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I 3rd the notion of trying a Pass amp. As many know here, I'm a fan and have owned several First Watt and Pass amps (and still own a couple currently). I also happen to have a pair of Monitor Audio RS6's. They've served as kind of my reference since 2007 while many other speakers have come and gone. Only Omegas have stayed, but that's another story. As I've had them so long and my budget has greatly increased over time, I've been able to try them with many amps at various price points. They are really well designed and have an amazing balance of strengths and few weaknesses. They also respond very well to equipment upgrades well beyond their price point. They're almost classics. Despite their slightly above average sensitivity rating (about 89 db) they're SUPER easy to drive because their impedance doesn't drop below 6 ohms, if I recall.
With that said, I don't agree that the XA30.5 is warmer than the XA30.8. That's just not my experience. The XA30.8 sounds more pure (very similar to a First Watt amp), but with massive bass and a bigger presentation. I guess the purity could come across as sounding more linear, but I also found the 30.8 to sound more natural and less "amp-like." The XA30.8 runs deeper into class A. As such, it also runs MUCH MUCH warmer and uses more electricity. The 30.8 can raise the average sized room temperature a couple of degrees ; The XA30.5...not so much. It runs warm, but not to the same degree as the 30.8. I really like both amps. I can definitely see how one might choose one over the other. Overall, I think the XA30.5 is a fantastic suggestion, especially for the budget. It's great sounding, built like a tank, looks great, and has first class customer support based in California. Don't worry about power. It has PLENTY of current for the RS6's. Even under demanding conditions, I bet the bias needle would barely move. Well before that point you'd probably be damaging you hearing anyway.
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Dear Audiophiles! :)
You know what I want to do right now? Shake hands with all of you! Thank you very kindly for all your most appreciated help, guys! :)
I see a very strong support from the forum members for Pass Labs (exemplary customer service, no need to buy brand new gear to get help: Threshold T3 from the year of ~1994 was serviced!) power amplifiers, and it looks like I basically need to make a choice between XA30.5 and XA30.8.
Do you believe I have a chance to get XA30.8 (Retail $6500 after Sept. 1st, 2015) within my very limited budget of up to 3K used? I do not think so, unfortunately enough…
As @RDavidson kindly noted, “Overall, I think the XA30.5 is a fantastic suggestion, especially for the budget. It's great sounding, built like a tank, looks great, and has first class customer support based in California. Don't worry about power. It has PLENTY of current for the RS6's”.
XA30.5 it is. :)
A few questions, if I may…
How reliable are these Pass Labs beasts? I would definitely prefer not to haul mine for service cross the border to the States and back! :scratch:
Any particular places you would recommend me to check for used Pass amps, please? :scratch:
And last, but not least: will XA30.5 “work nicely” with my upstream and downstream components, please? Please see the specs below for your information. :scratch:
Pass Labs XA30.5
Type: Solid-state stereo amplifier
Power Output: 30 wpc into 8 Ohm, 60 wpc into 4 Ohm (both 14.8dbW)
Power Consumption (Watts): 238
Temperature (deg C.): 53
Voltage Gain: 26 dB
Input Sensitivity: 0.77 V at 26db gain
Frequency Response: 1.5Hz–100kHz, –3db at 1.5Hz, –2db at 100kHz
Signal/noise: 150db at full power (I cannot believe this is not a misprint!)
Distortion: 0.01% at 3 watts, 0.1% at 30 watts (measured at 1 kHz)
Input Impedance: 30 kOhm balanced, 15 kOhm unbalanced
Damping Factor: 150 for an 8 Ohm nominal load
Maximum Output Current: 20 Ampere
Maximum Output Voltage: ±35 Volts
Output Noise: 150 microvolt unweighted 20 Hz - 20 kHz
DC Offset: <50 mV
Slew rate: ±50 V/µs
Dimensions: 19" (485mm) W by 7" (180mm) H by 19" (485mm) D
Weight: 62 lbs (28kg)
Shipping weight: 75 lbs (34kg)
Retail $5500 (Discontinued after Sept. 1st, 2015)
Primare PRE30 Preamplifier
Balanced inputs 560mV
Line inputs 280mV
Sensitivity adjustment -20dB to +20dB
Tape outputs 280mV
Gain 16dB
Frequency response DC to 100kHz ± 0.1dB
THD <0.01%
Signal-to-noise ratio -118dB
Crosstalk -113dB
Mains 100/115/230V
Dimensions (WxDxH) 430 x 410 x 100mm
Weight 9.5kg
Monitor Audio RS6
Frequency Response: 38 Hz - 30 KHz
Sensitivity (1W@1M): 91 dB
Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms
Power Handling (RMS): 120 W
Recommended Amplifier Requirements (RMS): 40 - 120 W
Tweeter Crossover Frequency: 3 KHz
Drive Unit Compliment: 1 x 6” C-CAM® Bass, 1 x 6” C-CAM® Bass Mid-range. 1 x 1” gold dome C-CAM® tweeter.
Cabinet Design: Balanced velocity twin reflex ported
Product External Dimensions: (H x W x D) 850 x 185 x 250 mm
Plinth Dimensions: (H x W x D): 25 x 255 x 305 mm
Individual Weight: 18 Kg
N.B. Impedance varies with frequency and goes to as low as 4 Ohms and as high as 16 Ohms. And, most importantly,“real” sensitivity is much lower than “nominal”: 87.40dB (averaged 300Hz-3kHz, 2.83V/1m)!
Measurements taken in the anechoic chamber at Canada's National Research Council can be found through this link:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1221:nrc-measurements-monitor-audio-silver-6&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
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A few quick comments...
The only issues I've either personally experienced or heard of regarding the XA30.5 were cosmetic (injured face plate or heat sinks) or related to the meter in front (I've heard of tiny spiders trying to set up shop in them, though a (very carefully aimed) blast of compressed air seems to do the trick). I've never heard of a functional issue, though I'm hardly a definitive reference.
When I've purchased used Pass gear, I've always emailed Kent English @ Pass Labs for any repair history related to the product (based on the serial number), and he has always happily responded.
If you prefer to avoid a private party sale, you could talk to Mark @ Reno Hifi (http://renohifi.com/PassUsed/PassUsedInStock.htm), who sells Pass factory refurbished Pass Labs gear. (I note that he has a 30.5 available at the moment...) Prices tend to be a bit higher than the best possible private party prices, but he knows his stuff, is selling it with new factory packaging, and you'd be hard pressed to tell it from new. I haven't purchased from him, but have come close a few times.
I don't have time just now to look at your specs in detail, but as I recall, the phase angle/impedance plot from Stereophile didn't look overly challenging. (Where it drops to 4 ohms, the phase angle wasn't exacerbating the problem.)
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Agree with brj's answer. I will add that Pass has been known for impeccable longevity. For many years they touted that they have never had an amp fail in the field. I'm assuming this means under normal circumstances/useage and doesn't account for the rare fluke....like premature part failure, which can happen to virtually any complex device. I'm not sure if they still tout this, but I would not doubt this to still be the case. And again, understand that irrespective of warranty, Pass Labs stands behind their products and will take care of you.
Preamp should be fine. It's a normal active type it looks like so voltage shouldn't be a problem. Also, the XA30.5 has pretty high input sensitivity. Input impedance is normal for an SS amp too (read, no problem). You can try passives or buffered preamps, if you ever feel like it. I'm a fan of buffered, low / no voltage gain preamps.
If I remember correctly, the RS6's stay above 6 ohms for the VAST majority of their operating range. Actually, here's what Stereophile says:
"The Monitor Audio Silver RS6's estimated voltage sensitivity was 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m, which, if slightly below the specified 91dB, is still higher than average. Its impedance (fig.1) remains above 6 ohms for almost the entire audioband, with a minimum value of 4.5 ohms at 165Hz. As well as being usefully sensitive, the RS6 is also an easy load for the amplifier to drive." I can appreciate the measurements for the Silver 6 you've cited, BUT those are not the RS6's measurements. The Silver 6's are two series newer and it is somewhat reasonable to believe that the newer series would have improved measurements across the board, but that's simply not always the case. They may have made improvements in areas like driver technology and crossover technology, but this may not equate to better sensitivity or impedance plot. There are always design / technical tradeoffs, even with advances.
The XA30.5 will have a very easy time with the RS6's. That's a good thing, because for the first few watts the XA30.5 operates in single ended class A. Afterward it switches to push-pull class A (if I recall correctly), then class A/B. I think you'd be destroying your ears if you ever get it to go into class A/B with those speakers. The only time I got the amp to switch to class A/B was with the difficult to drive KEF LS50's I once owned.....and that was VERY loud. It wasn't during serious listening. I was intentionally trying to see if I could push the amp a bit and see if I could hear a perceivable difference as well as make the bias needle move a bit. :thumb:
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How about a Primare A32? http://www.primare.net/product.asp?ProductID=45 (http://www.primare.net/product.asp?ProductID=45)
Never heard it, but I have owned several Primare amps and liked them all.
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I have had no issues with my older Pass X250. It is built like a tank. But unexpected failures do occur with electronics from time to time. On thing to consider when buying a Pass amp is heat as they run in Class A and they have huge heat sinks that get up over 115F. My X250 can heat up my room fairly quickly if I close the french doors to my 17x17x10 room. I live in Minnesota so it is not much of a problem during most of the year but in the summer the room can get a little warm after 1 hour.
Excellent choice if you go with the 30.5. You will love the Class A sound.
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Thank you very kindly, dear friends! :)
As @brj and @RDavidson noted, it does look like XA30.5 is indeed a good fit for my modest setup. Excellent! :D
A very interesting question of heat dissipation was mentioned again by @I.Greyhound Fan: “My X250 can heat up my room fairly quickly if I close the french doors to my 17x17x10 room.” Over 115F! :oops:
Earlier @RDavidson also mentioned “The XA30.8 runs deeper into class A. As such, it also runs MUCH MUCH warmer and uses more electricity. The 30.8 can raise the average sized room temperature a couple of degrees ; The XA30.5...not so much. It runs warm, but not to the same degree as the 30.8.” :oops:
My “cave” is only 14x14x9! Should I be concerned? Mind you, I seldom, if ever listen at concert levels… :scratch:
Not exactly sure if Primare A32 @timind mentioned works in class A… :scratch:
Have found XA30.5 in Canada (3200CAD only!). S/N D-3553. Not sure if I am correct, but the serial suggests the amp should be quite old… :?
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Earlier @RDavidson also mentioned “The XA30.8 runs deeper into class A. As such, it also runs MUCH MUCH warmer and uses more electricity.
About double the idle power consumption (and heat).
Although both are 30W/60W (4Ω/8Ω) and both "Leave Class A at ~ 60 peak watts", the XA30.5 has an idle power consumption of ~ 200W and the XA30.8 ~ 375-400W (spec sheet differs slightly from webpage).
Because they're Class A, the amount of power that they dissipate as heat will be similar whether played at low or high volume.
Technically I suppose you might expect a slight decrease in room heating (but likely not noticeable) playing at higher volumes because some of that electrical energy will be converted to mechanical motion at the speaker drivers rather than 100% of the electrical energy dissipated as heat at idle.
Steve
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Heat is only an real issue if you close the doors and for prolonged listening. My room also heats up because my BAT preamp uses 8 tubes. Don't worry about the heat unless you don't have AC during the summer. Enjoy the amp! I would love to have a 30.5 but my speakers require more power.
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I didn't see the class A requirement when I suggested the Primare. Sorry.
Has no one suggested Monarchy Audio? The SM-70 pro amp. You'd want two of them to run as mono blocks but they give you fully balanced as well as class A.
Nothing against Pass Labs amps, other than their price. :oops:
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Thank you all, as always! :)
The difference in idle power consumption .5 vs .8 certainly explains why .8 is such a big heater. Steve, is it possible to estimate how .5 will effect my room temperature? Just give me an idea, please, if possible… :)
@I.Greyhound Fan noted “I would love to have a 30.5 but my speakers require more power.” Are you referring to Magnepan Magneplanar 1.6? Could you please let me know what their averaged sensitivity is? It must be pretty low, if you need X.250, I would guess… :scratch:
“Nothing against Pass Labs amps, other than their price. ” - cannot agree with you more, @timind! :)
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Yes, I have the Magnepan 1.6's. The 30.5 amp will drive them just fine, but on certain music, I will loose some of the dynamics. The maggies like current and power. Having high current and headroom makes a difference.
Here is a discussion from another forum about how much power do you need-
"Very interesting. I just used an amplifier gain calculator to see how much power I need for 10 and 20db headroom at an spl of 80db at 12 feet listening area from the speakers. For my Magnepans with a sensitivity of 86db I need 33 watts for 10db headroom and 336 watts for 20db headroom. I am really appreciating the fact that my Pass amp is 500wpc and can give instantaneous peaks of over 3 times that.
The link for the spread sheet is below
https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/
Here is food for thought. Using the same calculator as above in my previous post. If I increase the spl to 85db then I need 106 watts for 10db headroom, 336 watts for 15db and 1,063 watts for 20db. And I do most of my listening between 75 and 90 db.
You can see why cheap speakers like the Elac B5's that have a sensitivity of 85db really sound better with high powered, high quality amps. Andrew Jones recommend at least 100wpc to get the most out of them. They are budget speakers at $220pr but need a not so budget amp to make them sing. When the Elacs debuted at the Newport audio show a few years ago, higher power Bel Canto amps where used and the speakers blew people away."
Here is a nice video discussing power and headroom-
https://youtu.be/itKqSWH07_Y
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The difference in idle power consumption .5 vs .8 certainly explains why .8 is such a big heater. Steve, is it possible to estimate how .5 will effect my room temperature? Just give me an idea, please, if possible… :)
The heat that the Pass Labs XA30.5 would produce at idle would be equivalent to much higher power Class AB amplifiers. For example, looking at a few Bryston Class AB amplifier examples:
Amplifier W/ch @ 8Ω W/ch @ 4Ω Watts @ Idle
-----------------------------------------------------------
Bryston 2.5B3 135W 180W 40W
Bryston 4B3 300W 500W 70W
Bryston 14B3 600W 900W 170W
For these Class AB amplifiers, they will produce more heat when driven with a signal, but because much of music consists of peaks, some that may only last milliseconds (rather than continuous RMS power), it's kind of difficult to calculate and predict how much additional heat would be produced at a particular volume and type of program material.
But for your Class A XA30.5, you can pretty much count on it consuming ~ 200W continuously, varying only slightly between idle and max loudness level. Each watt dissipated as heat produces approximately 3.41 BTU/hr, so 200W would produce ~ 680 BTU/hr.
I'm sure one could calculate the rise in room temperature given the room volume, ambient air temperature, relative humidity and R-Factors, but I would have to look up those formulas or calculators! ;)
Steve
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The 200W at idle value is correct, but note that the standby current draw for the XA30.5 is only about 15W. (Per a 2014 email I have from Pass Labs.)
Note that 30W is the nominal rating for class A operation, but it is not the maximum power of the amp. See the measurements section (http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa305-power-amplifier-measurements) of the Stereophile review for more info. (They estimate 153W max.)
The "D-" notation likely indicates a Pass demo unit. You could always email Pass and ask for any service history.
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The 200W at idle value is correct, but note that the standby current draw for the XA30.5 is only about 15W.
Of course that's only when one remembers to put the amp in the low-power "Standby" mode in between listening sessions. Otherwise during normal "On" operation, whether a source is playing or not, low or high volume, it will have close to the 200W power consumption.
That's just the price of Class A admission, like tube amps, but generally without the maintenance, adjustment or parts replacement.
Steve
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Yeah. It depends A LOT on room size. In a smaller space, one might notice the XA30.5's warmth a little bit. When I had it, I don't remember the exact measurements of my room (I've moved since then), but I definitely wouldn't consider the room to be large. I didn't have high ceilings or anything like that either. If it raised the ambient room temperature, it didn't do so any more than maybe a 2nd person in the room would (due to body heat). The XA30.5 was never more than warm to the touch, not hot. It sat on an amp stand, so it had plenty of breathing room. The XA30.8 I also owned (and used in the same room) was another story. It is much larger and heavier than the XA30.5 and biased more deeply into class A. It also produced MUCH more heat. I could definitely feel heat radiating from it much moreso than the XA30.5 when standing within a foot of it. I worked from home so I listened to my system all day. Over the course of the day, the XA30.8 definitely contributed to a higher ambient room temperature. The XA30.5 produced negligible heat in comparison. If you don't listen all day and/or don't have a very small listening room, heat shouldn't be a problem......unless you live in the desert with no air conditioning. :lol:
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Of course that's only when one remembers to put the amp in the low-power "Standby" mode in between listening sessions. Otherwise during normal "On" operation, whether a source is playing or not, low or high volume, it will have close to the 200W power consumption.
Thus the reason I use the 12V trigger inputs on mine, driven from my pre-amp. One click of the remote and the entire system fires up or shuts down. Very handy! :)
(XA30.5 trigger draw is about 7 mA.)
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Of course that's only when one remembers to put the amp in the low-power "Standby" mode in between listening sessions. Otherwise during normal "On" operation, whether a source is playing or not, low or high volume, it will have close to the 200W power consumption.
That's just the price of Class A admission, like tube amps, but generally without the maintenance, adjustment or parts replacement.
Steve
The standby switch is on the front of the amp. The main power switch is on the back. As such, the standby switch serves basically as the on/off switch. Unless you're going on vacation, you'd use the standby switch all the time.......unless you're one who prefers to leave their system powered up ALL day and night. I don't see the point in that, because most electronics (except maybe some sensitive digital gear) these days will reach thermal stability in like 30 minutes to an hour max.
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.......unless you're one who prefers to leave their system powered up ALL day and night. I don't see the point in that, because most electronics (except maybe some sensitive digital gear) these days will reach thermal stability in like 30 minutes to an hour max.
I think 24X7 amplifier power-on is pure silliness and wastefulness. Pass put in the low-power standby circuit (unlike some amplifier's standby circuits which only serve to keep trigger and remote control circuits active) to provide some output device biasing and keep sound capability at 100% for the purist.
But even if I turn the whole thing on and off with a trigger (like brj), I don't mind operating at 95% sound quality for the 30 minute thermal stabilization period! ;)
Steve
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I think 24X7 amplifier power-on is pure silliness and wastefulness. Pass put in the low-power standby circuit (unlike some amplifier's standby circuits which only serve to keep trigger and remote control circuits active) to provide some output device biasing and keep sound capability at 100% for the purist.
But even if I turn the whole thing on and off with a trigger (like brj), I don't mind operating at 95% sound quality for the 30 minute thermal stabilization period! ;)
Steve
Couldn't agree with you more. :thumb:
Off subject, but the only gear I've had trouble with were a couple of DAC's warming up from a complete power down. They needed several hours, maybe even a full day. It had something to do with their clocks or other highly sensitive components needing a lot of time to thermally stabilize (because the parts are so small and barely produced heat). How this affected the sound was that the DACs would have trouble handling jitter (even with just CD quality rips) and I'd get intermittent pops and clicks. It was super distracting. But hey, the more you know..... :wink:
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Just to be clear... the triggers on Pass amps take the amps in and out of standby in an identical fashion to the standby switch on the front of the amp. The main power switch on the back of the amp has to be flipped to "on" for either the standby switch or the 12V trigger to function. (The 12V trigger input is a standard +/- pair of speaker binding posts.)
And yes, I also leave my amps in standby until such time as I actually sit down to listen.
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Thank you very much! :)
@I.Greyhound Fan noted: “Having high current and headroom makes a difference.” I understand you are referring to Amplifier headroom here? :?
Could you please help me to find what the value of this parameter for XA30.5 is: to use the SPL Calculator “Amplifier headroom” parameter needs to be entered? For example, McIntosh MC452 has headroom of 1.8dB only. :scratch:
About current delivery: XA30.5 has Maximum Output Current of 20 Ampere. Is this enough for my Monitor Audio RS6 speakers? :scratch:
On heat dissipation. @srb estimated it at 680 BTU/hr. Under this condition BTU Calculator gives an estimate of 20 degrees Celsius. :)
In my mind, this correlates with what was observed by @RDavidson: “If it raised the ambient room temperature, it didn't do so any more than maybe a 2nd person in the room would (due to body heat). The XA30.5 was never more than warm to the touch, not hot. … The XA30.5 produced negligible heat in comparison.” :)
Would you recommend using external forced air cooling for XA30.5 (small desk fan, e.g.)? :scratch:
@brj, could you please explain what device I need to implement your approach of “… I use the 12V trigger inputs on mine, driven from my pre-amp.” My Primare PRE30 has an RCA-type socket providing 5V output for remote link. Yes, it’s a silly one, but this demonstrates you my level of experience… :oops:
P.S. BTU Calculator can be found here:
http://www.calculator.net/btu-calculator.html?roomwidth=1410&roomwidthunit=feet&roomlength=14&roomlengthunit=feet&ceilingheight=10&ceilingheightunit=feet&insulation=normal&temperature=20&temperatureunit=c&calctype=heat&x=30&y=9
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My Primare PRE30 has an RCA-type socket providing 5V output for remote link.
The 5VDC trigger output on the PRE30 is actually a phone jack that accepts a mini 1/8"/3.5mm phone plug. The trigger input on the XA30.5 will work over a range of 5VDC - 12VDC.
You can just use a 3.5mm mono phone plug to 3.5mm mono phone plug cable and cut off one end and strip the wires to connect to the XA30.5 trigger binding post connections or attach low-cost spade terminals or banana plugs if you don't want to use bare wire.
Steve
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Thank you very much! :)
@I.Greyhound Fan noted: “Having high current and headroom makes a difference.” I understand you are referring to Amplifier headroom here? :?
Could you please help me to find what the value of this parameter for XA30.5 is: to use the SPL Calculator “Amplifier headroom” parameter needs to be entered? For example, McIntosh MC452 has headroom of 1.8dB only. :scratch:
About current delivery: XA30.5 has Maximum Output Current of 20 Ampere. Is this enough for my Monitor Audio RS6 speakers? :scratch:
On heat dissipation. @srb estimated it at 680 BTU/hr. Under this condition BTU Calculator gives an estimate of 20 degrees Celsius. :)
In my mind, this correlates with what was observed by @RDavidson: “If it raised the ambient room temperature, it didn't do so any more than maybe a 2nd person in the room would (due to body heat). The XA30.5 was never more than warm to the touch, not hot. … The XA30.5 produced negligible heat in comparison.” :)
Would you recommend using external forced air cooling for XA30.5 (small desk fan, e.g.)? :scratch:
@brj, could you please explain what device I need to implement your approach of “… I use the 12V trigger inputs on mine, driven from my pre-amp.” My Primare PRE30 has an RCA-type socket providing 5V output for remote link. Yes, it’s a silly one, but this demonstrates you my level of experience… :oops:
P.S. BTU Calculator can be found here:
http://www.calculator.net/btu-calculator.html?roomwidth=1410&roomwidthunit=feet&roomlength=14&roomlengthunit=feet&ceilingheight=10&ceilingheightunit=feet&insulation=normal&temperature=20&temperatureunit=c&calctype=heat&x=30&y=9
Dude. Trust me. I've owned both. The XA30.5 has far more power than the RS6's could dream of using without reaching ridiculous amounts of distortion (driver breakup). On top of the fact that you have plenty of power and the speakers are easy to drive, you don't have a big room to fill. That's one of the most overlooked factors when analyzing specs : Real world application. You'll never get the XA30.5 to even break a sweat without completely destroying your ears first.
No. It doesn't need forced air cooling. Just don't put it in an enclosed cabinet and it'll be fine. That's what all that casework is for. It's a big heatsink. Go look around on the internet for pics and make note of how often you see someone using a fan with the amp.
You're really overthinking this stuff man. The XA30.5 is pretty much a state of the art amp (even though it isn't the newest), designed by one of the most talented and experienced amp designers in the world. Nelson knows what he is doing and puts a lot of consideration into his work....which is why Pass Labs has such a great track record. It also explains at least part of the reason why customer service is so great. If they only have to repair an amp every blue moon, then it's no big deal to them to bend over backwards to help folks out when needed.
I know it's a big purchase, but calm your mind by reading the reviews. Also understand that if for whatever reason you don't like it, it should be easy to sell. Heck, I've considered buying one again when I've seen them used....which seems to be a rarer and rarer occurrence. :thumb:
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Thank you very much! :)
@I.Greyhound Fan noted: “Having high current and headroom makes a difference.” I understand you are referring to Amplifier headroom here? :?
Could you please help me to find what the value of this parameter for XA30.5 is: to use the SPL Calculator “Amplifier headroom” parameter needs to be entered? For example, McIntosh MC452 has headroom of 1.8dB only. :scratch:
About current delivery: XA30.5 has Maximum Output Current of 20 Ampere. Is this enough for my Monitor Audio RS6 speakers? :scratch:
On heat dissipation. @srb estimated it at 680 BTU/hr. Under this condition BTU Calculator gives an estimate of 20 degrees Celsius. :)
In my mind, this correlates with what was observed by @RDavidson: “If it raised the ambient room temperature, it didn't do so any more than maybe a 2nd person in the room would (due to body heat). The XA30.5 was never more than warm to the touch, not hot. … The XA30.5 produced negligible heat in comparison.” :)
Would you recommend using external forced air cooling for XA30.5 (small desk fan, e.g.)? :scratch:
@brj, could you please explain what device I need to implement your approach of “… I use the 12V trigger inputs on mine, driven from my pre-amp.” My Primare PRE30 has an RCA-type socket providing 5V output for remote link. Yes, it’s a silly one, but this demonstrates you my level of experience… :oops:
P.S. BTU Calculator can be found here:
http://www.calculator.net/btu-calculator.html?roomwidth=1410&roomwidthunit=feet&roomlength=14&roomlengthunit=feet&ceilingheight=10&ceilingheightunit=feet&insulation=normal&temperature=20&temperatureunit=c&calctype=heat&x=30&y=9
First off, don't get too caught up in spec's and numbers. That Pass amp will have plenty of current and power to play those Monitor Audio speakers with a Sensitivity of 91db plenty loud to ear bleeding levels. A trait of a good amp is if it can double its power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms which the Pass can do. 20 amps is high current. My X250 is rated at 20 amps, my Parasound A21 is rated at 60 peak amps but it can't double its power from 8 to 4 ohms like my Pass and it pales in comparison to the Pass. ( A21- 250wpc at 8 ohms and 400 at 4 ohms, Pass 250wpc at 8 ohms and 500 at 4 ohms. I can tell you that the Pass plays louder and is much more dynamic than the A21.)
I did some checking and Stereophile did a review of the 30.5 and measured 6dB of headroom before any distortion. That is plenty for an easy to drive speaker like the RS6's. They loved the amp. You will love 30 wpc of Class A power, 60 wpc at 4 ohms and 6db of headroom of distortion free power.
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/pass_labs_xa305_power_amplifier/index.html#ysA0xtjkZJ4Rwv1H.97
Get the amp, don't worry about specs, heat and current, be happy and enjoy.
Larry
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...My “cave” is only 14x14x9! Should I be concerned? Mind you, I seldom, if ever listen at concert levels…
Those are pretty modest requirements and your speakers easy to drive. Get a used Bryston 2B-LP Pro (newer version with detachable power cord) and enjoy the sound, local service in Peterboro Ontario, low power consumption at idle, great resale value and the remainder of a 20-year warranty all for what will likely be $600-700. Sometime try to find an alternative to that square room.
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Thank you all, as always! :)
@srb noted “The trigger input on the XA30.5 will work over a range of 5VDC - 12VDC.” It is very important for me to have practical confirmation on the subject as one of the articles, “Trouble shooting for dummies”, on Pass Labs website suggests “The supplied voltage for the trigger is to be 12 volts direct current.” Thank you @srb! :)
@RDavidson: “I know it's a big purchase, but calm your mind by reading the reviews.” :)
@I.Greyhound Fan: “You will love 30 wpc of Class A power, 60 wpc at 4 ohms and 6db of headroom of distortion free power… Get the amp, don't worry about specs, heat and current, be happy and enjoy.” :)
This is what I have been doing, and all the reviewers just confirmed what you guys have been telling me all the time – it is an exceptional amp! :)
The hunt begins! :)
Last but not least… What would you consider to be a fair price nowadays for XA30.5 in excellent condition, please? :scratch:
P. S. @noway: I have had a chance to audition the Bryston 3B³ stereo amplifier, and, quite frankly, found it to be only a lateral move from my Acurus… :wink:
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I figure about $3000 plus or minus $200 would be a fair price depending upon age and condition.
FYI, this Mark Levinson No 334 amp is a good buy-
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-levinson-no-334-125-w-pc-stereo-amplifier-demo-2017-04-25-amplifiers-10507-bedford-hills-ny
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/142/index.html#rEYtCMexlwtUGDPf.97
https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/amp/15397/
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@srb noted “The trigger input on the XA30.5 will work over a range of 5VDC - 12VDC.” It is very important for me to have practical confirmation on the subject as one of the articles, “Trouble shooting for dummies”, on Pass Labs website suggests “The supplied voltage for the trigger is to be 12 volts direct current.” Thank you @srb! :)
I did not verify that from my own experience but it was taken from page 6 of the XA30.5 Owner's Manual (https://passlabs.com/sites/default/files/XA30.5_om.pdf)
"On the rear panel you will also find a pair of 5 way binding posts for external turn-on control. Applying 5 to 12 volts DC at this connection will override the front panel stand-by switch and turn the amplifier on."
Steve
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The only thing I'd caution about looking at Mark Levinson is that they seem to burn through power supply capacitors rather quickly....ie less than 10 years of use, and maybe even closer to 5-7 years which is very odd for modern solid state, let alone vintage solid state. I don't know if this applies to certain models or years of production or what, but the same has been said of the baby ML line, Proceed. If you go with ML, be sure to do plenty of reading. In other words, "proceed" with caution. :thumb:
If you keep an eye out, you can get a very nice XA30.5 for around $2750...give or take maybe $150. That's pretty close to what Mark at Reno HiFi is selling them for too (on the higher side). If you go to Mark, rest assured you will get absolutely first rate customer service and will do what he can to make sure you're happy. He also has a very generous trial period as well as upgrade period (4 months).
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Thank you all, as always! :)
It is very reassuring to know the trigger will definitely work with my PRE30. Thank you @srb! :)
@I.Greyhound Fan: Excellent find! S/N 1245 (as far as I can see from the picture) suggests it was manufactured sometime around the year of 2000. A bit dated, shall we say? :(
@RDavidson: “… about looking at Mark Levinson is that they seem to burn through power supply capacitors rather quickly....ie less than 10 years of use, and maybe even closer to 5-7 years… ” :(
I think I will pass this ML amp. :(
I have just checked Reno HiFi, and found they have XA30.5 with the following description:
"Used, Excellent condition, about two years old, one year transferable factory warranty, all factory accessories, new factory double-boxing, Satisfaction Guaranteed. S/N 28934. $3295. " Would you consider this to be a fair price, please? :scratch:
Last but not least… What amp stand would you recommend, please? My 17” stand will not be able to hold this little “monster”… :scratch:
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Thank you all, as always! :)
It is very reassuring to know the trigger will definitely work with my PRE30. Thank you @srb! :)
@I.Greyhound Fan: Excellent find! S/N 1245 (as far as I can see from the picture) suggests it was manufactured sometime around the year of 2000. A bit dated, shall we say? :(
@RDavidson: “… about looking at Mark Levinson is that they seem to burn through power supply capacitors rather quickly....ie less than 10 years of use, and maybe even closer to 5-7 years… ” :(
I think I will pass this ML amp. :(
I have just checked Reno HiFi, and found they have XA30.5 with the following description:
"Used, Excellent condition, about two years old, one year transferable factory warranty, all factory accessories, new factory double-boxing, Satisfaction Guaranteed. S/N 28934. $3295. " Would you consider this to be a fair price, please? :scratch:
Last but not least… What amp stand would you recommend, please? My 17” stand will not be able to hold this little “monster”… :scratch:
Yes, this is a fair price. Mark may be able to negotiate a little bit with you. Keep in mind his prices are retail. He has overhead etc. to pay for. You'll always get the lowest price on the used market, BUT if paying a little more for customer service and peace of mind are worthwhile to you, then go for it. In the grand scheme, his price is really not that much higher than the used market. When Mark says that an amp is "excellent" it is basically mint. Something I always try and factor into my purchases is my intent : Is it more out of curiosity (try then trade/sell), or is my intent a long-term investment? If the latter, then I don't necessarily hunt for the lowest price. I look for the best, safest, most reliable option that I know I can happily live with. Keep in mind Mark's very generous trial option as well as trade-in option.
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Last but not least… What amp stand would you recommend, please? My 17” stand will not be able to hold this little “monster”… :scratch:
The Sanus EFAB would do the job and is rated for 125 lbs ($80 at Audio Advisor).
For just a little more money, the VTI 404 is better looking, rated for 200 lbs., and comes in a variety of color combinations (black or silver frame, posts and caps and black, cherry or oak color shelf), available at www.standsandmounts.com (http://www.standsandmounts.com/ampstands.aspx) for $111.
From there you can go nuts with more exotic metals, 2" - 4" hardwood slabs, etc., for ~ $350 and up or you could probably DIY a wood slab (butcher block?) and footers for half of that or less, keeping in mind the footprint of the XA30.5 is 19"W X 19.2" D.
Steve
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Another nice option is a 3" thick Michigan Maple Block. This is what I use. You can find these on Audiogon now and again. You can order custom sizes too. Put some Herbie's Tenderfeet underneath and you have a very solid and beautiful stand that will last you a lifetime....and then some.
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Last but not least… What would you consider to be a fair price nowadays for XA30.5 in excellent condition, please? :scratch:
A handy reference, though I don't get the sense that it's info is especially complete:
http://kruipen.com/pass-labs-xa-30.5.html
(Note that it's not good about differentiating variations on a product name, such as including a space ala "XA 30.5" vs. "XA30.5", etc., so you might have to try a few variations and mentally merge the results.)
As for an amp stand, you might want to mention the floor surface. When I had mine on carpet, I was using furniture sliders for a while (frugal-man's approximation of Herbie's giant fat gliders (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm)), but moved to the extra-firm version of Herbie's Big Tall Tenderfeet (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/compfeet.htm) on top of a maple block when I put the amps in the (fully sealed and conditioned) crawl space below my listening room.
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Another amp to consider if you want to buy new is this Vincent Audio
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331MK
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/vincent_sp331_e.html
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Another amp to consider if you want to buy new is this Vincent Audio [SP331MK]
It seems to me that older models used soldered-in tubes, but I see this model has socketed tubes. (I know they're small signal tubes that likely wouldn't need replacement, but they are tubes and it's certainly possible some could require replacement due to noise or failure).
Ample capacitance (80K uF/channel) and 10W in Class A. It's not balanced though, is that still a requirement?
Steve
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It seems to me that older models used soldered-in tubes, but I see this model has socketed tubes. (I know they're small signal tubes that likely wouldn't need replacement, but they are tubes and it's certainly possible some could require replacement due to noise or failure).
Ample capacitance (80K uF/channel) and 10W in Class A. It's not balanced though, is that still a requirement?
Steve
Steve, some of their models do use soldered in tubes. I did forget that he want's balanced. But the Vincent is a great amp. They make nice gear. They have a higher end line that is not for sale in the U.S. unfortunately.
http://www.vincentshop.co.uk/
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Thank you very much, as always! :)
What an excellent idea from @RDavidson to use 3" thick Michigan Maple Block (I wonder if I will be able to find something like that home, in Canada...) and add the extra-firm version of Herbie's Big Tall Tenderfeet to it (thank you @brj)! :)
@srb: Did you mean by "footprint of the XA30.5 is 19"W X 19.2" D" the distances between its feet?
@I.Greyhound Fan: I would prefer to stay with SS balanced design. :)
What questions would you recommend me to ask Mark regarding XA30.5, please? I have no experience buying online, especially from the States... :scratch:
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@srb: Did you mean by "footprint of the XA30.5 is 19"W X 19.2" D" the distances between its feet?
No, just the chassis dimensions. It would be nice if someone could chime in with the outside dimensions of the feet. I had a component whose feet overhung the shelf by 1/4" - it still worked fine, but I would rather that it didn't.
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Specs and dimensions are available online on the Pass site. They even have a basic dimensional drawing available for download, which is really nice. I recommend getting a maple block that is about an inch larger than the amp in length and width. The added size ensures you won't have issues placing the amp on top. The larger maple block also serves as a "bumper" in case someone gets overzealous with the vacuum cleaner. Better to hit the maple block than the amp.
Just call Mark and talk to him. It's very simple. There's no "code of conduct" for buying an amp in The States. Tell him what you're looking for and why. I think he'll agree it is a great choice and you'll be thrilled. He's very friendly and easy to talk to. Trust me. I'm a picky customer and he has always gone out of his way to work with me. Because of that (and the great products he sells), I have gone back to him several times without hesitation.
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I never believed tubes can be superior to transistors in Hi-Fi realm because they are "prehistoric", "archaic", etc. You name it... :oops:
A friend learned I am on the market for a quality power amp, and was kind enough to bring his PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium stereo power amplifier over. I must confess this amp totally annihilated my Acurus A250: I have never heard my Monitor Audio RS6 giving such punchy, tight, well-articulated bass. Piano and vocals did really come to life as well. I was just moved into another level of realism with this amp. :)
Am I imagining things or what? I am positively shocked... :scratch:
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The OP is looking for a balanced amp (ie. dual differential). However, I've run my RS6's with a couple of tube amps myself. One of them is essentially the equivalent of the Prima Luna you speak of. It is the Cayin A50T. It is made by the same company and has basically the same circuit, except for the adaptive auto bias. It is indeed a nice amp. I enjoyed the combo VERY much. The midrange was beautiful. Bass was OK. Highs were OK. I'm sure those aspects can be improved with better tubes. I also tried a Conrad Johnson MV-60. It is much more detailed and punchy than the Cayin and overall a better amp with better resolution. I've owned many SS amps too : Belles, McCormack, Bryston (ST series) to name just a few of the good ones. But later came the First Watt M2 and my expectations for what solid state could do were completely blown out of the water. And the M2 isn't even one of Nelson's best / favorite's. I was hooked from there and have tried several Pass Labs and First Watt amps since then. I'm 100% certain there are others just as good in different ways as Pass (both tube and SS), but for my money, I'm quite happy with Nelson's gifts. Pass is an easy recommendation, and meets the OP's requirements. :thumb:
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SS, if you liked the sound of your friends Primaluna, then why don't you buy one? Although I think that the Pass will give you what you are looking for and then some.
If you really want to give tubes a try, you may want to look at the AVA Ultravalve Vacuum tube amp. Van Alstine has lowered the price to $1599. You could buy 2 and use them as mono blocks. I have heard this amp and it sounds great. It has great reviews. It performs way above its price point. And Frank has a 30 day money back guaranty.
http://www.tonepublications.com/review/ava-ultravalve-vacuum-tube-amplifier/
http://www.avahifi.com/products/power-amplifiers/tube-amplifiers/ultravalve-amplifier
I would also consider the Vincent hybrid amp that I mentioned if you have your heart set on tubes. Audio Advisor has a 30 day money back offer as well.
Other options are to go with a SS amp and a tube preamp. That is the route that I went with my Pass amp and my BAT VK51se preamp with 8 tubes.
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Thank you very kindly, dear friends! :)
As @RDavidson noted, "Bass was OK" - not exactly what I am looking for in my next amp... I love bass! And, definitely: "Pass is an easy recommendation, and meets the OP's requirements." :thumb:
An interesting observation from @I.Greyhound Fan: "Other options are to go with a SS amp and a tube preamp." What a great idea! :thumb:
What balanced preamp would you recommend me to pair XA30.5 with, please? In another thread @I.Greyhound Fan noted "My BAT preamp sounds much better with my Pass amp then when I used a SS Pass preamp with the amp." Very intriguing! :scratch:
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Thank you very much everybody for all your most appreciated and really helpful info! :)
(Im)patiently waiting for my XA30.5 delivery! :)
Forgot to ask you a couple of questions... :oops:
Will I have any challenges using my Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable terminated in Banana plugs? :scratch:
In another thread @I.Greyhound Fan was kind enough to recommend Belden 8402 cable for balanced interconnects. So this problem is solved. :)
Would you recommend me to change my speaker cable, please? :scratch:
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Pass amps typically don't use Banana connections. It is bare wire or spades at the amp end. You could always cut off the banana plugs on the amp end.
Otherwise, bluejeans cable makes some nice wire. I use their 10g bare wire and terminated it myself with their connectors. I prefer higher gauge wire like 10 or 12 gauge with high current amps and inefficient speakers. Your AQ is 15g and should be fine.
If you decide to get some cable from BJ's, and you go with spades on the amp end, make sure you buy the Flat Spades, not the angled. Only Flat Spades will fit as the wing nuts on the binding posts get in the way. That is my one complaint about Pass amps. I think that Nelson Pass prefers bare end speaker wire.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm
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Are you thinking of the 30.8 with its new binding posts, perhaps? I used to use Straley speaker cables with angled spades (http://www.realitycables.com/images/speaker_cable_3.JPG), and it worked fine - though it was slightly awkward to hand tighten the posts given how stiff the cables were and the close spacing of the binding posts. No "wing nuts" on the 30.5 posts...
(I really need to sell some of my Straleys. I'm still using one set in a second system, but have 2 additional pairs that deserve a more productive home. Gotta find some rainy weekend to clean out the gear closet...)
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Pass amps typically don't use Banana connections. It is bare wire or spades at the amp end. You could always cut off the banana plugs on the amp end.
The XAxx.5 amplifiers use standard 5-way binding posts which includes the use of banana plugs. Just pop out the plastic center protective cap.
Audioquest usually uses BFA style plugs which is my preference. Some like the locking type with expanding split center pin, but both of these in my opinion are preferable to standard banana plugs.
Steve
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Thanks for the correction Steve.
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The XAxx.5 amplifiers use standard 5-way binding posts which includes the use of banana plugs. Just pop out the plastic center protective cap.
Audioquest usually uses BFA style plugs which is my preference. Some like the locking type with expanding split center pin, but both of these in my opinion are preferable to standard banana plugs.
Steve
The plastic center plug can be tricky to remove because they also have a metal (brass?) pin holding them (seemingly permanently) in place. This is for Euro safety standards. I've used a tiny screwdriver to push the metal pin out. The pin is maybe a millimeter in diameter. After this is done, then the plastic center plug can be easily removed. I don't think the .8 series has this type of plug/pin situation, if I recall correctly.
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The Pass .8 series amplifiers also have 5-way binding posts from the Furutech Torque Guard series. The posts have a spring torsion ratcheting mechanism to provide consistent pressure against spade connectors without over-tightening, but they also accept banana plugs.
There does not appear to be any safety protection caps for the banana plug opening.
Steve
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As always, thank you all very kindly for your most appreciated help! :)
@I.Greyhound Fan mentioned "I prefer higher gauge wire like 10 or 12 gauge with high current amps and inefficient speakers. Your AQ is 15g and should be fine." :)
Should Monitor Audio RS6 speakers be considered inefficient? :scratch:
Could somebody please give me an idea of the difference between my 10-foot pair of AudioQuest Type 4 Speaker cables each cable using two 17-gauge and two 20-gauge conductors, which is equivalent to two 15AWG wires, and a two-conductor cable like Belden 5T00UP (2 x 10 AWG) from Blue Jeans Cable working with XA30.5? :scratch:
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Your speakers are very efficient. Your cables are fine. I prefer heavier gauge wire for high current amps and inefficient speakers like my maggies. My Pass manual recommends heavy gauge wire as well.
Stop worrying about things and enjoy the amp, then tinker. It really is not complicated. You are going to love the sound.
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+1 I.Greyhoundfan.
SoundSound, I hate to say it, but you're borderline OCD, man. Seriously. I think we've answered ALL your questions one way or another with great information. If you've done research on your own (as I think you have), you should be able to fill-in a lot of the blanks. You need to give your mind a break as well as these threads. Get your amp. Set it up. Listen to it and go from there.
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Thank you, my dear friends! :)
I feel like I know you guys for ages... :)
Yes, you are right, @RDavidson, I am "borderline OCD"... What can I say? :oops:
It is the first truly High-End amp I am expecting at my doorstep on Thursday: nervous, worried a bit too how it is going to survive the trip, etc. Again, thank you very kindly for your support, and understanding! :)
RE trigger cable to turn XA30.5 On/Off Standby using my Primare PRE30 output for remote link. Just to make sure I understand it correctly: I can use a two-wire cable (something very simple, almost like a lamp wire), at the preamp I only need a mono 3.5mm plug and at the amp I will be able to use regular 1/4" spades. Please confirm if this is correct. :?
This is exactly what I was looking for at the local shops, and found nobody in my neck of the woods has it! Could you please suggest me an online shop or DIY guy where I can order such cable from? Maybe even somebody here on AudioCircle? :scratch:
Please help! :)
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Just to make sure I understand it correctly: I can use a two-wire cable (something very simple, almost like a lamp wire), at the preamp I only need a mono 3.5mm plug and at the amp I will be able to use regular 1/4" spades. Please confirm if this is correct. :?
Could you please suggest me an online shop or DIY guy where I can order such cable from?
It doesn't have to be anything fancy - it's not an audio path, just needs to be able to conduct minimal low mA relay current. Something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/12-Ft-24-Gauge-Speaker-Cable-Plug/dp/B000XG5JS4/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1495553673&sr=1-1&keywords=12-Ft.+24-Gauge+Speaker+Cable+with+1%2F8%22+Plug
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162716)
Steve
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When you get the amp, before playing music, give it a couple of minutes to fully charge the capacitors. Make sure the standby switch is off when you plug it in. Do all your connections first before plugging it in. You will find that it sounds better after about 30 minutes of play time. It is subtle but noticeable.
Let us know how you like the amp. Enjoy!
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SoundSound
If you are still considering a balance tube preamp to go with the Pass amp take a look here of the Trading Post.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149871.0
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Thank you very much guys! :)
Having a brain freeze... :oops:
@I.Greyhound Fan: Did I get it correctly? :scratch:
1. Make all connections
1. Standby switch is OFF
2. Main power switch is OFF
3. Plug amp into the wall
4. Main power switch is ON
5. Standby switch is ON
6. Wait for 2 minutes
7. Play music (finally!)
What is the sequence for powering the amp down? :scratch:
@srb: Ordered! :)
@JackD: Frankly, I am not sure if I should go with Tubes or Solid State preamp in case of XA30.5... But the price for Modwright 36.5 preamplifier is very tempting! :)
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My vote is always going to be tube preamp with SS amps. Another great option in that realm though hard to find used is the PS Audio BHK Preamp. Also a lot more new. Also at that price for the Modwright if not you thing turn it back over. I am currently running the Modwright LS-100 with the PS Audio BHK amp.
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ALWAYS turn your amp on last, and ALWAYS turn it off first. I once made the mistake of turning off my direct coupled tube preamp off before I turned my amp off. Fried my woofers. Good thing the drivers were relatively cheap and easy to replace. This was a long time ago and several systems ago...long prior to my "education" on AudioCircle. Live and learn. :thumb:
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My vote is always going to be tube preamp with SS amps. Another great option in that realm though hard to find used is the PS Audio BHK Preamp. Also a lot more new. Also at that price for the Modwright if not you thing turn it back over. I am currently running the Modwright LS-100 with the PS Audio BHK amp.
With an amp as pure and colorful as the XA30.5, I don't think a tube preamp is a necessity moreso than a preamp that is transparent. I've never heard the Modwright, but know it is excellent gear.
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The Modwright is a good preamp. I looked into buying one when I bought my BAT.
SS, no special procedure when turning off the Pass. Just turn off the amp first, then your DAC if you use one and preamp last.
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Dear Audiophiles! :)
I am looking for a power amplifier with balanced circuit topology to replace Acurus in my modest Hi-Fi setup:
Mac mini (USB3 output) -> Singxer SU-1 ->
Yggdrasil DAC (AES/EBU XLR input) ->
Primare PRE30 preamplifier (AES/EBU XLR input) ->
Acurus A250 power amplifier (RCA input) ->
Monitor Audio RS-6
Any info/advice is very much appreciated. Please chime in! :)
P.S. I am considering Lindell AMPX power amplifier, but not sure if it is a true balanced/differential design…
The term balanced here needs to be clarified (i don't get it)
1 - balanced inputs
2 - fully symmetrical amp topology
3 - bridged topology
4 - other
thanks
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GG, the OP wants a balanced (dual differential) amp. I think we've covered that, and something tells me you know this too. We also know you don't like Class A amps due to power consumption. So......let's keep the thread moving forward versus going off on an unnecessary tangent.
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The term balanced here needs to be clarified (i don't get it)
OMG. You QUOTED SoundSound's original post where he said he wanted an amplifier with true balanced differential circuit topology. No clarification is needed.
Then in his reply #79 he let us know that he ordered the Pass XA30.5 and expected delivery this week.
I'm having a hard time understanding what your motives could possibly be. :scratch:
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Hmmmm....let me guess a motive : To thwart the OP's plan to buy a class A amp (and a great one at that), perhaps? ugh :duh:
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Hmmmm....let me guess a motive : To thwart the OP's plan to buy a class A amp (and a great one at that), perhaps? ugh :duh:
no no,misunderstanding,i just wanted to educate you to what a fully balanced amp involves,take a look at the schematic bellow
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162798)
it's a pass schematics, from what i have seen, pass incorporates balanced input in most of his amps
,this to some people is true balanced too believe it or not,i have been told so
,so you can see the misunderstanding,anyway i was going to educate you on more benefits of xlr,but
lets not derail your thread again,thank you and cheers.. 8)
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One doesn't need to know how the engine in a Ferrari works in order to appreciate driving it. There are plenty of technical threads here on AC for those who wish to be educated on such things. Feel free to start one. This isn't the place.
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@RDavidson: "ALWAYS turn your amp on last, and ALWAYS turn it off first." :)
Not sure how this works in case preamp and amp connected with the trigger cable I was bugging you guys about... In my understanding, when I turn my PRE30 to OPERATE from STANDBY it simultaneously turns the amp to OPERATE from STANDBY, and when I turn my PRE30 to STANDBY from OPERATE it simultaneously turns the amp to STANDBY from OPERATE. :scratch:
What am I missing here? Should this remote link be employed at all? :oops:
Do I understand correctly, main power switch on the back panel of XA30.5 should ALWAYS be ON? Could somebody please estimate the power consumption of XA30.5 while in STANDBY mode? :scratch:
As I mentioned earlier, am having a brain freeze… Sorry… :oops:
What solid state preamp with balanced circuit topology would you recommend me to consider, please? Preferably, below 3K used. :scratch:
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Could somebody please estimate the power consumption of XA30.5 while in STANDBY mode? :scratch:
Per the XA30.5 Owner's Manual (https://passlabs.com/sites/default/files/XA30.5_om.pdf), "When not actually intending to play music the amplifier should be left in standby mode, where it draws only a few watts of bias on the output stage."
Pass doesn't give a numerical standby power consumption spec, but most people take "few" to mean 2 or 3. While there is no exact definition for "few" (more than 1, but not many), I generally expect it to mean not exceeding 5.
Steve
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Thank you very kindly Steve! :)
Anybody on the "trigger" confusion, please? :oops:
Sitting on the needles: should be delivered today...
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I'll weigh in on the trigger topic. While RDavidson gives good advice about amplifier power sequencing, it also depends on the equipment. Some components have built in muting delay and they also differ in turn-on and turn-off transients and power supply charging and discharge.
While it's possible that some scenarios could damage a driver, I probably would personally give the trigger a try. If turn-on and turn-off noises are subtle, I would use the trigger. If they are not subtle, then I would revert to manual power sequencing and ditch the trigger.
It obviously works in many scenarios or Nelson Pass wouldn't have provided the trigger connection.
Steve
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I don't know if the 30.5 amp is like my X250 but I suspect it is. It takes about 10 seconds for the Capacitors to discharge the stored power after I turn off my Pass amp. Once my son accidentally turned off my amp when music was still playing and the music continued to come through for about 9-10 seconds.
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Per the XA30.5 Owner's Manual (https://passlabs.com/sites/default/files/XA30.5_om.pdf), "When not actually intending to play music the amplifier should be left in standby mode, where it draws only a few watts of bias on the output stage."
Pass doesn't give a numerical standby power consumption spec, but most people take "few" to mean 2 or 3. While there is no exact definition for "few" (more than 1, but not many), I generally expect it to mean not exceeding 5.
See my earlier post in the thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149931.msg1605883#msg1605883
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See my earlier post in the thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149931.msg1605883#msg1605883 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149931.msg1605883#msg1605883)
I'm not saying that's excessive standby power consumption necessarily, but if it is 15W standby, it is poor product copy in that by no one's definition is 15W a "few" watts and Pass should just publish the numerical spec.
Steve
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I'll weigh in on the trigger topic. While RDavidson gives good advice about amplifier power sequencing, it also depends on the equipment. Some components have built in muting delay and they also differ in turn-on and turn-off transients and power supply charging and discharge.
While it's possible that some scenarios could damage a driver, I probably would personally give the trigger a try. If turn-on and turn-off noises are subtle, I would use the trigger. If they are not subtle, then I would revert to manual power sequencing and ditch the trigger.
It obviously works in many scenarios or Nelson Pass wouldn't have provided the trigger connection.
Steve
Understood regarding on/off sequence. But if you go by my very simple method it is essentially fail safe. Like you said, not all gear has a muting relay and that's where the danger can be. So if you just make a habit of amp on last and off first, then there's much less to worry about. :D Yeah....not sure how that'd work with a trigger relay. Just have to be sure you understand how your equipment works to ensure no mishaps. Another option is a surge protector with programmable relays....in which case the amp on/off sequence still applies.
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Thank you very much, dear friends! :)
For now I will just "manually" follow what was kindly suggested by @RDavidson: "ALWAYS turn your amp ON last, and ALWAYS turn it OFF first." :)
The beast has arrived, and now am waiting for a good neighbour of mine, a strong young gentleman, to come back home from his business trip and help me to unpack and set it up into my rack. :)
Any final suggestions, please? :scratch:
Would you consider Pass Labs XP-10 to be the best solid state fully balanced preamp (operates in pure Class A!) under 3K used to work in tandem with XA30.5, please? :scratch:
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Thank you very much, dear friends! :)
For now I will just "manually" follow what was kindly suggested by @RDavidson: "ALWAYS turn your amp ON last, and ALWAYS turn it OFF first." :)
The beast has arrived, and now am waiting for a good neighbour of mine, a strong young gentleman, to come back home from his business trip and help me to unpack and set it up into my rack. :)
Any final suggestions, please? :scratch:
Would you consider Pass Labs XP-10 to be the best solid state fully balanced preamp (operates in pure Class A!) under 3K used to work in tandem with XA30.5, please? :scratch:
I can't say that the XP-10 is the best SS preamp but it is a Pass preamp and you have a Pass amp. There will be synergy and it is a safe choice. Certainly other preamps can sound better but it is trial and error. But other factors come into play such as your speakers and music source such as you DAC, CDP or TT. I prefer a tube preamp and SS amp but you never know how different manufactures will sound together. The Pass XP-10 is an excellent preamp and well regarded. I have a friend that uses one and he loves it. It sounds best with XLR as did my Pass X-1 preamp. You can't go wrong with it. Another good SS preamp is a Parasound JC2.
Here is a review of the XP-10
http://www.dagogo.com/pass-labs-xp-10-preamplifier-review
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/preamplifier/pass-labs-xp-10-stereo-preamplifier/
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The XA30.5 has very high input sensitivity, so you really shouldn't need a preamp with a lot of voltage gain. In fact, you might not want any gain.
The Pass XP10 is a very nice preamp. Really hard to go wrong with an all Pass setup.
I've owned a few really good preamps, including a rare Bent Audio AVC, but I suggest looking at the Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE. EXTREMELY good preamp at a reasonable price. It is a passive preamp with a buffered output. It only applies gain if you crank the volume WAY up. I owned one for several years. These rarely show up used. Go to 6 Moons and read the review for the original unit. There's also a newish review for the fully upgraded unit. The original, "basic" unit is excellent as-is. You may only feel the need to upgrade it if the bug bites. But it would probably make more sense to upgrade other things before upgrading it. Your system would need to be REALLY well sorted first. Go read about it. I'm sure others will chime in.
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So how do you like the Pass amp?
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Audio gd Master 3. I've had mine for almost 3 happy years no problem. Also it's around $1500.
http://audio-gd.com/Master/Master-32015/Master-32015EN.htm.
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Dear audiophiles, my dear friends! :D
Thank you, thank you very much for all your most appreciated help! :)
First and foremost, my sincere apologies for not getting back to you with the words of gratitude for all your time and efforts educating yours truly in the field of High-End Sound. Please believe me, an unthankful pig I am not: my “motor” was giving me grief lately and I have just come back home on Friday… :oops:
What can I say: everything you told me, everything I read about this truly amazing amplifier is true. I keep listening to my favorite compositions (vocal, organ, piano, orchestral, chamber, symphonic, jazz, pop, rock…) discovering nuances I have never heard before, and, mind you, many of those compositions I know by heart... Something really wonderful has happened to my speakers: it’s like instead of my entry level Hi-Fi Monitor Audio RS6 I am enjoying High-End Wilson Audio Sasha. The images became even more holographic with clearly defined instruments positioning, and all of this is built upon the foundation of rich, velvet, excellently articulated BASS… :D
As usual, a couple of silly questions from yours truly… :oops:
What is the purpose of Pass Labs XA30.5 meter, please? During my listening sessions the needle is always around 12 o’clock… What does this mean? :scratch:
For quite some time I have not had a chance to look at the back of my components, and have just “discovered” there are a few unused XLR and RCA inputs on my Primare PRE30 preamplifier. Would you recommend me to employ Cardas Protective Caps (please se at http://www.cardas.com/protective_caps.php - in my understanding, effectively shorting out the inputs), plugs from Neutrik (please see at http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/sealing-accessories/ndf - effectively providing just protection from dust) or do nothing in this regard? :scratch:
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What is the purpose of Pass Labs XA30.5 meter, please? During my listening sessions the needle is always around 12 o’clock… What does this mean? :scratch:
The meter is indicating bias current to the output devices, and because it is a Class A amplifier that will be a constant most of the time. If you listen at loud volumes with bass content you may see the meter move a bit as you momentarily drive it beyond Class A into Class AB.
Steve
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Thank you very kindly Steve! :D
The needle hardly moves at all: it is glued at about 5 to twelve o'clock position.
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I'm not saying that's excessive standby power consumption necessarily, but if it is 15W standby, it is poor product copy in that by no one's definition is 15W a "few" watts and Pass should just publish the numerical spec.
Steve
I own the xa30.5. I used to run a Pass XP-10 and I tried a few tube pres, but now I use a W4S STP-SE and it is sounds pretty darn good.
PS: and per Kent English at Pass support regarding standby
Stand=by is less than 0.5W. Approx 2000hr for 1 kW/hr draw
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Thank you very kindly @mav52! :)
Could you please help me to understand the differences between the "stock", Stage 1 Upgrade, and Stage 2 Upgrade? :scratch: Which variant do you prefer? :scratch:
Would you recommend using a table fan (e.g. something like http://www.matthewsfanco.com/index.php?page=cinni) to cool XA30.5 down? Not sure if this even necessary... :scratch:
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SoundSound
When the STP-SE was introduced nine years ago it was done to a "price point" with parts available at that time. The two upgrade stages give you the option to move up in internal parts to far more expensive variants if you desire. I have owned the stock unit for going on four years and it is an "award winning" preamp as is. You can always upgrade it at a later date if you wish. You might want to consider a used unit to see if it's to your liking and then if you feel the need send it in for the upgrade. Just my opinion.
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Thank you very kindly @mav52! :)
Could you please help me to understand the differences between the "stock", Stage 1 Upgrade, and Stage 2 Upgrade? :scratch: Which variant do you prefer? :scratch:
Would you recommend using a table fan (e.g. something like http://www.matthewsfanco.com/index.php?page=cinni) to cool XA30.5 down? Not sure if this even necessary... :scratch:
No. A fan isn't necessary if you don't put the amp in an enclosed cabinet. The entire case of the amp is essentially a big heatsink. That's part of the reason the amp is so large. If Pass felt the amp needed a fan, they would've built one into the unit.
Start with a basic STP-SE. It is really really good. Even the basic unit uses excellent parts. That's why the upgrades are so expensive. To better the parts that are in the basic unit, they had to go way up ladder to get an appreciable improvement that was worth the time and labor effort to install them. Go read about it and come back with questions after you've done your research. If you want to start a preamp thread, do so. This thread is titled Balanced Power Amplifier. :scratch:
And if you start a new thread PLEASE just start a single one, instead of starting two and asking almost all the same questions in each (some questions multiple times). I think you already asked about the need for a fan or another form of external cooling. Several here already answered that.
For the love of AudioCircle, please stop the craziness. As you can tell, we don't mind helping, but you're walking a thin line between needing help and needing your hand held. Please do your research versus relying on us to build your system for you. This is your journey to experience, not ours.
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Agree with RD, do not put the Pass in a closed cabinet. If you have no choice I say modify the cabinet and put some major vents in the cabinet and even some quite cabinet fans at the rear to draw the heat out and up. But I never had an issue with the xa30 except when it's 90 outside and the dew point is at 78 and humidity is around 80 then is a little uncomfortable but that's what the AC is for.
I always wanted to try the stage 2 upgrade for the W4S STP-SE but the cost threw me Off. Maybe one day if my unit ever gives me trouble but right now it's very neutral and soild.
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Thank you very much for all your most appreciated help! :)