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Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Charles Calkins on 14 Mar 2006, 11:22 pm

Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 14 Mar 2006, 11:22 pm
Got mine yesterday.
 Hey Guys!!!
 Run don't walk to Danny's and put your order in for one as soon as possible.
 This thing is an absolute killer!!!! Never and I mean never have I heard such great music playback in my house as I'm hearing now. I've got it hooked up to an SB3 and as I've said before the SB3 is by itself a great system. With the addition of the DAC 60 with S.C. mods it's almost out of this world.
 Two things I've noticed so far. Besides all the instruments and vocalists sounding much better I hear a deeper and fuller bass. I also hear a much wider sound field.
 Before I bought my D-200 amps I had a pair of NAD 218THX amps in mono. Nothing out there could reproduce the bass like the NAD's. I gave some of that up when I switched to the D-200's. Now that big deep bass is back because of the DAC 60.
 I just finished listening to Brian Culbertsons "It's on tonight" He and the other main guys are dead center. But I'm amazed at how the other backround instruments are reproduced like to the far outside of the speakers.
 One more time. This DAC with S.C. mods is a KILLER!!!

 Cheers
    Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: DeadFish on 14 Mar 2006, 11:30 pm
Man, Charlie, it isn't even broken in yet! :mrgreen:  

Glad to hear you are liking it.

Keep us updated!!

Regards,
DeadFish
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 14 Mar 2006, 11:49 pm
Deadfish:

 Are you telling me it's going to get better?
Hard to imagine it getting better than the way it sounds now.
 The bottom line is it's a jaw dropper!!!!

 Cheers
 Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: arthurs on 14 Mar 2006, 11:51 pm
It is an awesome DAC with the upgrades....Charlie I think I might prefer it with the DIP between the transport and the DAC 60 per previous posts....soundstage seems larger, and seems to look depper and more detailed into the music somehow...need a few mnore days with it in, then I'll pull it out and verify....
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 15 Mar 2006, 12:22 am
Arthurs:
 Keep us up to date on the results. I can't imagine it getting any better than what I'm hearing now. But Hey!! Audioadvisor needs my bucks! Gota keep them happy!

                     Cheers
                     Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 15 Mar 2006, 12:25 am
You guys are making the wait even more unbearable.... :D

I can't wait to hear this in my system...

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 15 Mar 2006, 12:36 am
spacedghost:

 It took four weeks from the day I ordered it until I got mine.

 Cheers
 Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: MarkM on 15 Mar 2006, 12:55 am
Quote from: Charles Calkins
Deadfish:

 Are you telling me it's going to get better?
Hard to imagine it getting better than the way it sounds now.
 The bottom line is it's a jaw dropper!!!!

 Cheers
 Charlie


Charlie,

Yup :!:

Stock, it is an awesome deal.  Throw in the mods and I believe it contends with some of the best DACs, especially when you factor in price to performance, which is most important imo.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 15 Mar 2006, 02:07 am
Congrats on your new DAC-60 Charles!

My stock unit with late 50s square getter halo Bugle Boys is in a completely different league as well. Just imagine your modded unit with some nice vintage Amperexes!
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Loftprojection on 15 Mar 2006, 02:25 pm
Charles, could I ask what was your source before the DAC60?  You say you use a SB so I assume what you are saying is the DAC60 is a great improvement versus your SB direct in analog?  But did you compare the SB/DAC60 combination to any CD player?  

You seem pretty happy, it's always so rewarding when you buy a piece of equipment and the result is better than what you had before.  Unfortunately for us (not for the manufacturers!), it's a never ending cycle, there is always something better and more expensive!  haha

Cheers.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 15 Mar 2006, 03:34 pm
Loftprojection:
 I compared the SB3 to my APLhifi sacd 1000 fully modded with Crystal DAC's and built in volume control. Top of the line back then. This was done by Alex(Genius)Pecheyev in mid 2004. When I compared them I couldn't tell hardly any difference in playback. If anything I thought the SB3 had a teeny bit better high end. I can't hook the DAC up to the SACD 1000 because Alex says it won't work as a transport. Something about DSD and ABC's and XYZ's. A lot of mumbo jumbo tech stuff I don't understand. But all I can say if the SB3 and the SACD 1000 were very close then now the SB3 plus the DAC are far superior.

                   Cheers
                   Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: dcbingaman on 16 Mar 2006, 04:13 am
Just received a DAC 60 from Johnny Chan at Diyclub.biz.  Concur with all the above comments, this thing is very well-built, quiet, and sounds great already, can't wait until it breaks in.  The stock output coupling caps LOOK just like Wima FKP polypropylenes, which are really not bad caps, (certainly no worse than Solens.)  If you want to improve on these, I would go to Reliable Multicaps, (either PPFX or PPMFX series), which have been personally designed by Richard Marsh, (the same guy that wrote the film capacitor article in Audio.)  Also, the Black Gates are expensive as hell because they are out of production.  If you find them, buy them for their low ESR, but film-bypassed Nichicon's are as good for a lot less $.  You can find all this stuff at Micheal Percy's website, www.percyaudio.com.  He also has a good stock of RAM Labs and Amperex NOS 6DJ8 / 6922 twin triodes.  BTW, Johnny Chan sells some drop-dead gorgeous casework for low cost ($ 37.50 for a standard preamp case) - same quality as the DAC-60 casework.  Good luck, Modkateers !!
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Mar 2006, 02:40 pm
Quote
The stock output coupling caps LOOK just like Wima FKP polypropylenes, which are really not bad caps, (certainly no worse than Solens.) If you want to improve on these, I would go to Reliable Multicaps, (either PPFX or PPMFX series),


I'd go Sonicaps by-passed with a Sonicap Platinum.  :mrgreen:  This is what is being used in the upgrade from Sonic Craft.

Quote
Also, the Black Gates are expensive as hell because they are out of production. If you find them, buy them for their low ESR


Actually they are not out of production. You just have to buy a lot of them at a time to get any of them. Sonic Craft has plenty of them in stock.

http://www.soniccraft.com/products/capacitors.htm

I think that you'll find that Sonic Craft offers some of the same caps as Michael Percy but has a better price on them.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 17 Mar 2006, 12:26 am
I've just ordered a bunch of caps from Sonic Craft. As suggested by Danny in  an earlier thread, I am going for the Gen I 3.3 uF SoniCap bypassed with a 0.1 uF Gen II. I hope it's not too shabby compared to the Platinum bypass :-)

I also ordered several SoniCaps and Black Gates to recap my SX-1980's line level preamp stage. This circuit is all discrete bipolar SEPP Class A. The higher grade caps should take it to the next level.

Can't wait to get them and heat up the soldering iron!!

Best,
crooner
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 17 Mar 2006, 11:49 pm
arthurs:
  Waiting,Waiting,Waiting,Waiting for your review of the DIP with the DAC.

               Cheers
                Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: arthurs on 18 Mar 2006, 02:47 am
Charlie, here's my "review"  I'm not sure after a week of listening with it in and removing it that I can tell a significant difference with the DIP.  So, that being the case, I'm not going to keep it.  My initial thoughts were it was expanding the soundstage, and improving detail, but I think that was placebo.  After a few consecutive days of alternating I reached a stalemate on it sonically and can't honestly say it's doing anything for me.....I'm sure that couldn't be less help, sorry.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 18 Mar 2006, 03:05 am
arthurs:
  Thank you arthurs you just saved me at least $350.00. I won't bother getting one now. Do I owe you anythng? Like $$$$$$$ for the info.

                          Cheers
                         Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: arthurs on 18 Mar 2006, 04:53 am
LOL, you're a good egg Charlie....enjoy your new DAC :thumb:
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: tigzstudio on 18 Mar 2006, 05:16 am
what is the DIP??>  are you saying you dont like the DIP or the dac itself????
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: chadh on 18 Mar 2006, 06:19 am
The DIP is a "digital interface processor" (I think that's right), manufactured by Monarchy.  It's a jitter reducer to be placed between the transport and dac.

Since the DIP is designed to reduce the jitter introduced by your transport, I would have imagined that its effectiveness in a given system was determined by the characteristics of the transport, not the DAC.  For example, I used to use one when my transport was a Rotel multi disc player, and it passed the digital signal on the a modified DIO.  In this situation, the DIP had a significant effect.  And I suspect it would have continued to have a significant effect if I had been using a completely different DAC.  But if my transport had produced lower jitter levels, the DIP would have provided less impact.

If arthurs found that the DIP had little or no effect, then this should be a reflection of low jitter coming from the transport.  For somebody else, using a different transport, the effects of using the DIP prior to the same DAC might be significantly greater.

Having said that, I would guess that the SB3 is a pretty low jitter-producing transport.  So it would seem unlikely that Charles would get much from using a DIP.

Chad
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: arthurs on 18 Mar 2006, 06:24 am
LOVE the DAC60 with the mods....I think you nailed it chad, my transport is a CEC TL51X, reported to be almost jitter free, and I guess this experiment would reinforce that...
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: studley on 18 Mar 2006, 10:57 am
Quote from: Charles Calkins
Loftprojection:
 I compared the SB3 to my APLhifi sacd 1000 fully modded with Crystal DAC's and built in volume control. Top of the line back then. This was done by Alex(Genius)Pecheyev in mid 2004. When I compared them I couldn't tell hardly any difference in playback. If anything I thought the SB3 had a teeny bit better high end. I can't hook the DAC up to the SACD 1000 because Alex says it won't work as a transport. Something about DSD and ABC's and XYZ's. A lot of mumbo jumbo tech stuff I don't underst ...


Charles
Is your SB3 stock or modded?

I can't decide whether to go the SB3 + DAC 60 route or wait for the USB input version of the DAC 60, for which there is no ETA (any news Danny?).
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: nickspicks on 18 Mar 2006, 12:23 pm
I to just got a DAC60 from DIYbiz and am amazed how good it sounds right out of the box w/o any break in time.  even still, it SMOKED the stock analog output of my Toshiba SD9200.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 18 Mar 2006, 03:06 pm
studley:

 My SB3 is stock. I'm using a wireless router system and it works great.


                        Cheers
                        Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 18 Mar 2006, 04:31 pm
chadh:

  Is there some easy way to test a systen for too much jitter?

                 Cheers
                 Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: chadh on 19 Mar 2006, 04:27 am
Is there some way to test a system for too much jitter?  Hmmm...I guess you could get your hands on a DIP and see if it made an improvement in your system.  If not, then I guess your system doesn't have much jitter!

Sorry - I'm just not very savvy on these issues.  However, if I were you, using the digital out from an SB3, I wouldn't bother with a DIP (or any other anti-jitter device).  As there is no mechanical movement in the SB3, it seems like the single largest source of jitter from your transport is already eliminated.  Furthermore, if you do a little googling, I bet you can find analysis of the SB2/3 and the amount of jitter it produces.  I'm pretty sure I've read references to this, and the jitter level is pretty small.

[Just for completeness - antijitter devices don't necessarily lower jitter anyway.   Due to their electronic nature, they can actually be a source of jitter.  If I recall correctly, the DIP measured pretty well on the additional jitter dimension (relative to severeal other affordable anti-jitter devices).  But if jitter is almost non-existant from your transport, something like a DIP still seems more likley to be detrimental than beneficial.]

I have a DIP 24/96 that needs to go back to Monarchy for repairs.  Once it's fixed, I could always send it your way for a quick test.  It's destined for audiogon once it's operational anyway.  Let me know if you're interested.

Chad
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: nickspicks on 19 Mar 2006, 12:38 pm
as cool as the DIP boxes are, if you REALLY want to see if you have jitter problems, get your hands on an Apogee BIG BEN.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 19 Mar 2006, 01:36 pm
Geeeezzzeeee!!!!!
 I heard about this site through a good buddy of mine a couple of years ago. I had no idea there was so much audio gear out there. Monarchy DIP,Apogee Big Ben. Didn't know they exsisted. Computer audio! What a shock!!! If this keeps up with all the trick gadgets out there a live concert might be heard in our home audio system.

                            Cheers
                            Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: nickspicks on 19 Mar 2006, 01:59 pm
I do that every day.


for example, if you dont mind wasting a CD and know how to handle a .FLAC file download and burn this track.
I recorded it last month.  on my system, the room is re-created just about perfectly.
got BASS ?
hope so!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=26679.msg236992#236992
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 21 Mar 2006, 06:36 pm
Boy this thread sure has been quite.... :o  

Everyone must be spending more time listening..... :D


Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 21 Mar 2006, 06:45 pm
Shaun:
  Yes I do spend a lot of time listening to My SB3 set up. When are you getting yours?

                              Cheers
                                Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 21 Mar 2006, 06:51 pm
Sooooon.......  

Out for Mods as we speak....:)


Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 21 Mar 2006, 06:58 pm
After having my DAC-60 with Sonic Craft mods for a week now I seriously doubt if I'll have the SB3 modded. It just can't get better than now. Of course I have been known to be wrong.

                                  Cheers
                                Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 21 Mar 2006, 06:59 pm
Funny I said the same thing after having my current setup for a week or two....  Now 4 months later here I am..


Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 21 Mar 2006, 07:05 pm
You've got a DAC-60 with Sonic Craft mods?
 Now you're getting the SB3 modded?
 If you are I can hardly wait to hear the results!!

                Cheers
               Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 21 Mar 2006, 07:09 pm
Quote from: Charles Calkins
You've got a DAC-60 with Sonic Craft mods?
 Now you're getting the SB3 modded?
 If you are I can hardly wait to hear the results!!

                Cheers
               Charlie


No sorry there must be a bit of confusion...  I am getting the DAC60 Mod, I do not have an SB3.  I am using an Onix CD player that will become my transport.

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 21 Mar 2006, 07:12 pm
Darn!!! I thought you would have the ultimate SB3 system.


                                    Cheers
                                   Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 21 Mar 2006, 07:24 pm
Hmmm maybe....  

If I pack enough CD's in the living room, the wife might start screaming.  Then I come in with the perfect solution to clean the area up and consoliate..hmmmmm

You might be onto something..

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Wayne1 on 21 Mar 2006, 07:35 pm
I recently heard from a gentleman who lives just west of Denver in the foothills. He should be getting a Sonicraft modded DAC 60 in a week or two. He has said he is willing to come down to the flatlands with his DAC to take a listen to the SB.

If the timing works out, we may be able to compare stock SB3 to modded SB2 digital out to DAC60. We can also compare various power supplies and how the DAC60 and SB compares to a highly modded SB2 analog output.

If there is anyone interested in listening to this comparison, drop me a line and I will let you know where and when this will happen, as soon as I know.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: mgalusha on 21 Mar 2006, 07:44 pm
Quote from: Wayne1
If there is anyone interested in listening to this comparison, drop me a line and I will let you know where and when this will happen, as soon as I know.


You know I'm interested. Always want to meet new folks and hear new systems. :-)
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Turk on 21 Mar 2006, 08:24 pm
Ditto
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: rajacat on 21 Mar 2006, 11:19 pm
[


I will very interested in the outcome of this shootout. I'm trying for the most cost effective improvement to the output of my SB3 besides the power supplies. Specifically, the stock SB analogue output vs stock SB + external DAC. The waiting list for SB mods is very long and I am impatient. The price for a good  external DAC is dropping and they are readily available so so this might be the way to go for a quick improvement of SQ.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Wayne1 on 22 Mar 2006, 01:52 am
If you demand a quick "upgrade", without regard to "The Best" sound you can get, than an external DAC would sound "better" than a stock SB3. A linear power supply sounds better, to me, than the stock switcher.

I have compared a modded SB2 analog out to a highly modded ART DI/O. I preferred the modded SB.

As to if a modded SB sounds better than a stock SB with the DAC 60, well you will just have to wait a couple more weeks.  :lol:
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: rajacat on 22 Mar 2006, 02:58 am
Quote from: Wayne1
If you demand a quick "upgrade", without regard to "The Best" sound you can get, than an external DAC would sound "better" than a stock SB3. A linear power supply sounds better, to me, than the stock switcher.

I have compared a modded SB2 analog out to a highly modded ART DI/O. I preferred the modded SB.

As to if a modded SB sounds better than a stock SB with the DAC 60, well you will just have to wait a couple more weeks.  :lol:


There will always some tweak or expensive mod that will be offered to achieve  "THE BEST" sound but I think that most people can't afford the best, so they are looking for some happy medium. I agree that the power supply is important and I am taking that into consideration in how I allocate my limited funds. Of course, if you really want " the best" perhaps you should be looking at the $25,000+ speakers and amps recommended by The Stereophile Magazine. :roll:
Title: Are the Sonic Craft mods available?
Post by: erlebo on 22 Mar 2006, 04:49 am
In an earlier thread, Danny wrote:

"I just confirmed with Sonic Craft and they are offering the mod kit for the DAC-72 and DAC-60 for $190. That is for all the parts."

When I try to order from Sonic Craft, the answer I get is:

"That project was stillborn some time ago.  We have never offered kits
for those units.  Further, there are new mods in the planning stage."

What's going on Danny? All I need is a parts list so I can place an order.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 22 Mar 2006, 08:44 am
I believe the DAC60 is in a whole different category compared to an ART DI/O....

I am getting superb results with my stock SB3, linear power supply and DAC-60 (upgraded coupling caps, 1960s Bugle Boy 6DJ8s). Totally sinergistic, a match made in heaven!!!
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Mar 2006, 04:19 pm
Quote
"That project was stillborn some time ago. We have never offered kits for those units. Further, there are new mods in the planning stage."

What's going on Danny? All I need is a parts list so I can place an order.


At first there was the idea of offering an upgrade "kit". A bag of parts...

The parts were going to be $190. and the labor to install them all was $100.

It was then realized that there would be a significant amount of time required to draw up instructions, handle support, and the liabilities of helping first timers tear into a piece of electronics.

Jeff, at Sonic Craft, just didn't have the time to do this. In the amount of time that it would take to create good instructions and an upgrade manual he could mod out half a dozen or more units.

So the "kit" idea was dropped and the basic upgrade was offered for $290.

We do have in the works some other upgrade levels. There are a handful of DAC-60's being used as a test bed for new mods. Careful listening sessions will determine the results and assess the value of the mods.

We are going to see how far we can take one with a $190. mod. This includes labor. There are a handful of less expensive tricks to try and see how much can be done for this price point.

Next we are going to try and take the standard mod a step further without getting too carried away with cost. We are going to set a limit of $390. for all the mods and see how far we can take it.

Lastly we are working on a Super DAC version. For this version we offer the DAC fully modded with cost not being much of a factor. This will include replacing all the caps in the signal path to Black Gates or others, by-passing with high quality caps, Sonicaps, Sonicap Platinums, etc. Then shield the power supply with ESR. Rewire the board with continuos caste Copper wire. Replace the inputs and outputs with WBT Nextgen's, Possibly use a new Bybee slipstream filter on the data input. Dampen the chassis with damping material, etc. Then there are a couple of secrete upgrades.  :mrgreen:  Everything it needs it gets.

I think we can do all this and still offer the completed unit for under $1,490.  

This will take a couple of months so don't ask to order one just yet.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Loftprojection on 23 Mar 2006, 02:12 am
Quote from: Danny
Lastly we are working on a Super DAC version.


Don't forget that ideally this super DAC could have balanced out and a USB input that bypasses the windows mixer.

Now, THAT, with all the BlackGates, Sonicaps and other gyzmos could earn the name

Super DAC   :D
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Images on 25 Mar 2006, 11:44 am
As of this date, is there any problem with ordering the Dac 60?  On Danny's website it reads "All units are air mailed straight from the factory and takes 7 to 10 business days."  Now, assuming the supplier is DiyClub .biz in Honk Kong, (a big assumption, perhaps) the case is out of stock and no orders are being taken.  They state:  "Due to the large demand and the supply of the case is behind schedule, the DAC-60 is temporately not receiving new orders until further notice."  Sooooo, assuming I want to order a stcck Dac 60 from Danny, is there a supply problem?  For that matter, is there a supply problem if I want to order the Dac 60 with the SC mods?
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Mar 2006, 11:00 pm
Quote
As of this date, is there any problem with ordering the Dac 60?


Yep, there is going to be a problem for some people.

I have become a favored customer and was notified by the factory of the up and coming shortage of cases.

I have procured 20 units with an Aluminum top cover and will be having these sent here to me for me to have in stock.

The Aluminum top cover will add $20. to the retail price of each unit. These units will be made available in stock form and fully modded.

These should last me for about 3 weeks (maybe) and until they are once again available.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 25 Mar 2006, 11:49 pm
Sure glad I've got mine.

                     Cheers
                     Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 26 Mar 2006, 01:09 am
Oh sure.... Rub it in... :D

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 26 Mar 2006, 01:31 am
He who hesitates if often LOST!!!

      Cheers
     Charlie

 P.S.
 Going to the RMAF in October?
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 26 Mar 2006, 04:41 am
LOL
Wondering a bit, not quite lost...

I plan to be there... You?

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 26 Mar 2006, 05:06 am
See you there!

                       Cheers
                       Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: dcbingaman on 27 Mar 2006, 05:12 am
OK, guys, I finally got some time to spend with the DAC 60, (no mod.s yet...)  Anyway I compared the DAC60 to the analog output of my Sony SCD-C555ES SACD carousel (which was also used as the transport), my Pioneer Elite DV-38a Super Legato Link CD/DVD-V/DVD-A player, and my VPI HW-19 Mk. III / Hot-Rod Rega / Clearaudio rig.  OK I cheated - I used both the CD and LP versions of Dave Grusin's "Discovered Again"  (One of the best jazz recordings ever made).  First observation - it likes to be warmed up.  Second, it smoked both the Sony and Pioneer players, but still couldn't touch the analog rig.  The Pioneer was subjectively "mellower", but lost a lot of detail.  The Sony was just as detailed but had NO depth.   The DAC 60 has tons of depth and images very, very well, implying decent phase integrity from the reconstruction filters to the outputs.  My guess is the simple 6922-based analog circuit has a lot to do with this.  Quite frankly, I was surprised at just how good this thing sounds.  I have to tell you, though, that the Sony in SACD mode still kicks the shit out of ANY CD playback system I've ever heard....you can't re-create what's NOT on the disc, no matter how good your DAC is.  I for one hope that the boutique labels continue to support SACD and Sony wakes up and realizes what a great medium it has created.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: MarkM on 28 Mar 2006, 08:42 pm
Interesting comparison to SACD.  My take is the DAC-60 modded allows me to forget about the hi-rez format.  SACD selection is so limited, pale's in comparison to redbook choices.  I really wanted to buy into SACD, even spent a few bucks on a good decent player.  DSD done proper is good stuff but....

Upgrade the output caps, power supply caps, (both 110uf, 58uf and 2uf), install a few FRED bridges and you might not find the urge to listen to your SACDs.   I also added Black Gate .10uf NX-HQ bypasses on the signal chain caps, smooths things out and this thing kicks.  Not bad for $225 in parts. :wink:  Stock, the DAC is a bargain.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 29 Mar 2006, 07:35 am
After reading dcbingaman's post I decided to do some informal AB comparisons between my Denon DVD-2910 playing SACDs and my SB3 with my slightly modded (Sonicaps coupling caps) DAC-60.

I played material that I have in both 44.1 kHz and SACD, as well as the CD layer from the hybrid discs ripped to my SB3.

I found the sonic signature of both SACD and 44.1 kHz very similiar in many cases. There were instances in which the hybrid layer sounded markedly worse. I assume this was done on purpose to demonstrate the superiority of SACD. Very deceiving and questionable practice IMO.

The widest dynamic range recording I have is not a SACD or even a recent CD release. It's Flim & the BB's  "Big Notes" a very early CD (1984) manufactured in Japan for the DMP label.

The last track on this recording "Born To Love You" is a showstopper. It starts with very very soft solo piano rendition by Billy Barber, it then starts gradually building up with the various instruments, flute, sax and with an explosive climax that will knock your socks off! It ends again with the soft delicate piano by Barber.

Tom Jung probably engineered this to demostrate the capabilities of the [then new] digital medium and it's superiority in dynamics over analog.

Had this be recorded with an analog machine, tape hiss and saturation would have been inevitable, no doubt!
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 29 Mar 2006, 07:39 am
Another revelation is how good "needle drop" CD-Rs made from my treasured LPs sound via the DAC-60. Except for a very slight roll off in the highs, they are identical to the source. Easily fools you for the real thing.

Peter, Paul & Mary's first LP sounds so real it's spooky!

I guess this goes to show that the poor sound of some CDs (including the early ones) was due to poor mastering practices rather than the medium itself.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: SSassen on 29 Mar 2006, 07:45 am
/exits from lurking mode

Quote
was due to poor mastering practices rather than the medium itself.


Obviously that's a given; if the source material is not up to spec then the reproduction by your equipment won't be either, regardless of the pricetag attached to your equipment. The real challenge however is to pick out the real gems among the millions of mediocre or plain dull sounding recordings.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 29 Mar 2006, 07:53 am
Absolutely!

I've also found that as you upgrade to better speakers, the more revealing your system becomes. Excellent recordings will be impressively reproduced and some that you thought were ok, will expose their warts. The crappy ones will be even more obvious!

I have a few early CDs from CBS/Sony, including catalog 35DP-1 the very first released (Billy Joel's 52nd street), and with perhaps one or two exceptions, they all sound quite bad. And it's a pity given the Japanese fanatical attention to detail. I have several jazz CBS/Sony releases in LP from the same period and they are so much better!

Early CDs remastering's poor sound has been associated with less than ideal second generation master tapes or tapes equalized for LP release. However, I believe the early Sony Analog-To-Digital converters were much to blame for the crappy sound.

The early CDs are nearly all mastered using "emphasis" BTW. Perhaps an acknowledgement that linearity of both ADC and DACs in 1982 was far from the state-of-the-art!

Quote from: SSassen
/exits from lurking mode

Quote
was due to poor mastering practices rather than the medium itself.


Obviously that's a given; if the source material is not up to spec then the reproduction by your equipment won't be either, regardless of the pricetag attached to your equipment. The real challenge however is to pick out the real gems among the millions of mediocre or plain dull sounding recordings.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: SSassen on 29 Mar 2006, 08:14 am
It is both a blessing and a curse really; CD's you used to enjoy on less revealing equipment might have their obvious recording flaws exposed on better equipment and ruin the experience for you. On the other hand even very well recorded CD's all sound similar on mediocre equipment.

What's more troubling (at least to me) is the fact that all major labels use dynamic compression on most popular music (the top 100 kind) and often use a bathtub curve to boost the high and lows. Obviously this is done to make their CD's sound good to the iPod generation. When listened to on proper equipment this is just awful however.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: dcbingaman on 30 Mar 2006, 03:58 am
Crooner, ANYTHING Tom Jung touches sounds amazing, IMHO.  My guess is he figured out how to get the most that the CD medium could provide in that recording you've got.  You should hear his SACD's on DMP.  The Gaudemus multi-channel choral recording is just downright spooky.  Tom, Doug Sax and Keith Johnson are in a league of their own when it comes to getting good sound onto a record, (I'm showing my age again), er disc !!
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Jon L on 30 Mar 2006, 06:15 am
Quote from: SSassen
It is both a blessing and a curse really; CD's you used to enjoy on less revealing equipment might have their obvious recording flaws exposed on better equipment and ruin the experience for you. On the other hand even very well recorded CD's all sound similar on mediocre equipment.


Off topic, but is that a Focal 7K2 midrange driver in your Avatar?  Love'em in mine..

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;user=1086
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 31 Mar 2006, 10:10 pm
Quote from: Charles Calkins
Sure glad I've got mine.

                     Cheers
                     Charlie



Whoo hoooo :dance:

Just in time for the weekend (Boy my wife is going to love this...)...

Hmmm what to listen to first....:)

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 31 Mar 2006, 10:57 pm
I think I'm getting better performance out of my DAC 60 with a Monster cable powerline 200 power cord that I had laying around in my cable collection junk box. Maybe the dac 60 is just getting broken in but I seem to hear a difference when I use the Monster 200 rather than the stock power cord.

                             Cheers
                            Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: crooner on 1 Apr 2006, 03:27 am
Awesome! keep us posted on your findings!

Quote from: spacedghost
Quote from: Charles Calkins
Sure glad I've got mine.

                     Cheers
                     Charlie



Whoo hoooo :dance:

Just in time for the weekend (Boy my wife is going to love this...)...

Hmmm what to listen to first....:)

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 1 Apr 2006, 03:55 am
First of all I would like to say how well this thing appears to be built, heavy little bugger.  I'm not sure I had mentioned this in my previous posts but I ordered the black face model.  This works out well with my current components (silver probably would have worked to, but not with the wife. :roll: ).

Ok out of the box it sounded pretty good, not exactly what I was expecting but ok.  Well give this DAC some time to warm up and it starts to shine (which I should have known, but with all that wait I want it NOW).  I only have about 6 hours on it, but the soundstage is much wider.  I have really noticed the depth of the stage.  Instruments and voices are not necessarily clearer, but they are more separated ( I believe this is imaging?).  

I can't wait for this thing to really break in, I have all kinds of CD's I want to through at it.

Ok now for the dumb question... :oops:   Should the clock rate (Hz) ever change?  If not why is it shown?  Ok not too much flaming....
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: F-100 on 1 Apr 2006, 04:59 am
SpacedGhost,
  Is your DAC stock or modded version?
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Danny Richie on 1 Apr 2006, 02:13 pm
The clocking rate will change depending on input. I have seen mine click over to 96 went it received a 96k input.

His is a modded unit and most of those caps will need about a hundred hours on them. The Sonic Platinum's in the output coupling cap location will take much longer though so it will go through a continuos improvement over quite a while.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 1 Apr 2006, 02:45 pm
If this thing is only going to get better, then my wife is going to shoot me for buying CD's to feed it.

Thanks again Danny for your responses and help.

Ok here comes the dumb one again... Are there any redbook CD's that are recorded at rate higher than the 44.1....kHz?   :?

Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Gordy on 1 Apr 2006, 03:51 pm
Hi Shaun,

Here's a brief definition of the redbook standards... http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci503642,00.html
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 1 Apr 2006, 04:47 pm
Gordy

Thanks for the link, I really appreciate the info.


Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: GHM on 2 Apr 2006, 11:52 pm
FWIW, I noticed this DAC 60 uses the same DAC chip find in the Wadia 861. The difference being the Wadia uses 2 per channel. That DAC should sound great!!
Title: Black DAC60 w/ Soniccraft mods is in the house
Post by: dallasstarsfan on 6 Apr 2006, 08:48 pm
Got mine 2 days ago.  The black faceplate looks great and the unit is quite hefty.  Build quality looks to be first rate like others have mentioned.  I put about 25 hours of burn-in via the Squeezebox 3 (gotta love the SB for that) and gave a short listen last night.


My initial impression is that this DAC sounds GREAT !  Wide soundstage and very very clear rendition of vocals and acoustic instruments.  

I want to give it the full 100 hour or so burn-in and then post more feedback (as well as comparison to other DACs that I have owned.

BTW, system is SB3 (with elpac linear psu) --> DAC60 via HDVX digital cable --> Emotiva DMC-1 pre/pro in source direct mode (via grover UR6 ICs) --> Emotiva amp --> Onix Ref 3 speakers.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 14 Apr 2006, 12:13 pm
Good Morning

Just wondering if the Coax and Optical were different signal paths, and if so would this require equal break in times?


Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: MarkM on 14 Apr 2006, 04:22 pm
Quote from: spacedghost
Good Morning

Just wondering if the Coax and Optical were different signal paths, and if so would this require equal break in times?


Shaun


I think the signal goes through a selection sw.  I'm guessing there would not be much of a difference in break in time.  There is a cap just before the cs8414 and then it goes to the clock & df1704.  I'm sure someone will correct me.

Do you notice any difference between the two?   I just got my SB setup and I prefer the sound of the digital out from my Sony player over the SB digital out to the DAC 60.  The SB may need some tweaking, but love the features.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: spacedghost on 14 Apr 2006, 05:45 pm
Not enough data to answer, must do more research..... :D   Actually last night I ran my dvd player through the optical so I could listen to concert DVD's through it.  Sounded good, pretty similar to what I remember right out to the box for CD's.  That's why the question came into my (4 beer) head...


Shaun
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Nick V on 19 Apr 2006, 09:08 pm
I went searching for DAC's recently at all the audio stores in my hometown and my favorite seems to  be the Musical Fidelity Trivista DAC 21 (for the price). I was looking at picking one up on audiogon but it's looking like it's going to cost me somewhere in the 1500+ range (especially if I want the Parts Connexion mods).

Basically just wondering how the DAC-60 fully modded out might stack up? What other DAC's/Players have you guys compared with the DAC-60 or have you guys basically been upgrading from DVD players and low budget cd players?

Right now I'm running a Denon DVD-3910 into a monolithic sound PA-1 preamp and a Rotel RB-1070 amp. Speakers are GR Diluceos. I'm looking to make a significant step up in playback quality.

Also just wondering if there's any word on the USB input upgrade?

P.S. The amp is also getting upgraded this summer, thinking Butler TDB 2250.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Charles Calkins on 19 Apr 2006, 09:33 pm
Nick V
  Can't remember what my first DAC was it's been a long time ago that I had it. My second DAC was one of those Musical Fidelity X can series. It was okay. Nothing to rave about. The third one I had a few years ago was the Bel Canto DAC 2. What a disappointment!!!. I mean bad!!
 The DAC-60 with Sonic Craft mods I have now is the best I've ever heard in my system. For the price you can't go wrong. No disappointments either!

 I've got the DAC hooked up to an SB3 squeeze box system. Don't know what the results would be hooked up to a CD player or transport.

                Cheers
              Charlie
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: studley on 20 Apr 2006, 07:47 am
Danny
any news on the USB input version?
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2006, 12:29 pm
Not yet.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: Images on 20 Apr 2006, 11:17 pm
The Sonic Caft modifications to the DAC 60 certainly are well receivewed, especially by many here at AC.  Also, the fact that the mod is promoted through GR Reasearch inspires my confidence.  I feel that if there were a problem down the road, I would be able to access dependable service to back up the product.  That being said, Sonic Craft is not the only source of modifications to the DAC 60.  "Pacific Valve & Electric Company" also offers a mod, but I've not as yet seen the rave responses to this as I have to the SC treatment.  The Pacific Valve mod runs $570 and can be found here, http://www.pacificvalve.us/LTDAC60M.html.  On their website they say, "We made a number of circuit changes and modifications. All of the circuit changes we made use premium parts. We replaced a majority of the capacitors with WIMA Black Box Metallized Polypropylene, Mcap Supreme Silver / Oil caps and Elna caps for audio. These together created the sound quality above. We also replaced the stock Electro Harmonix 6922 Tubes with Sovtek 6992 Tubes."  Sooooo, how does this compare to the SC deal... and how would we know?  I doubt that anyone has purchsed both and heard them side by side.  So do we do a parts count, or what?  I guess the real question is, "Is the Sonic Craft mod $200+ better than the mod offered by Pacific Valve?"  Of course, all opinions are welcome and, this being a thread about Danny's doings, I would expect that the SC modified version of the DAC 60 would been seen in the more favorable light.
Title: DAC 60 with Sonic Craft mods
Post by: dallasstarsfan on 21 Apr 2006, 01:05 am
Good find on the other source of a modified Dac 60.  Judging from the picture on the Pacific page, one of the immediate reason why their mod is cheaper is that the power supply caps (i think that is the correct name) is not replaced with a Black Gate.  I believe that one Black Gate cap that sonic craft uses goes for $140 or so.  How much does it improve the sound?  I can't answer that but I do know that the my DAC60 with SC mods sounds fantastic.