[rogerlbray]

OK, room basics.

20' x 20' room with standard 8 foot ceilings.
3 Windows approximately 2' x 5' each
Walls are standard sheetrock.

Room is carpeted with a medium length soft nap carpet.
Soft drapes fully cover all windows.
Large 12' x 10' deep shag rug directly before speakers.
Huge (can seat 7) soft sectional at opposite end of room from speakers.

Klipsch RP-8000f towers 8 ft. apart on front wall pulled out 20" from the wall.

I do not currently detect any echo or resonance when listening but wondered based on my room description whether there would be any need for additional room treatment or if the above seems adequate.

Thanks in advance.

[toocool4]

First thing I would say try is, pull them further away from the front wall and have a listen to see what you think. Try getting them 3 feet to 6 feet away from the front wall if you can. Just experiment with distance from walls.

[richidoo]

Sounds like you're doing well with what you have. Square rooms are always a little harder because you get two 20' standing waves and their harmonics for the price of one!  But the sectional and the curtains will help. The rug and carpet probably the most valuable component. 

20" sounds about right for placement of speakers that size. Experiment with this distance to fine tune the compromise between too close to wall will make too much bass, while too far from wall will allow midbass smear due to front wall wave interference. Push the speakers closer to hear what too much bass sounds like, and pull them out 4 feet to hear what midbass smear sounds like, then find the compromise in the middle.

6' distance from side walls is excellent. 8 foot separation is adequate if you are sitting 8-10 feet away from speaker plane. If you are sitting on the couch 15 feet away then consider moving the couch closer to speakers. It would be great to have the listening position away from the back wall. Something around 1/3 - 2/5 of room length (7-8') out from the back wall. Then you can widen the speakers so their separation is about 90% of the distance from the speaker plane to your head. Adjust the width to be wide as possible while preserving the image solidity. Your preferences in speaker width may change over time once you start playing with it. The center of the square room is the worst place acoustically so don't sit there.

You might could use some additional low bass support from bigger speakers or subwoofers since the room is so large and the speakers have relatively small woofer area. Integrating subs with ported main speakers requires good amount of expertise, but can work well. Using multiple subs instead of one can help even out the modes and improve the bass FR.

Damping the 1st reflection points on the walls can sound good, especially the floor and ceiling. Your floor is already well damped, so the ceiling could use damping. I like to use amplitude diffraction because it's thin and provides additional wide bandwidth damping to live room. GIK makes such products, but the original and best imo is the 'BAD panel' from RPG. But a simple FG panel on the ceiling will serve to damp the reflection above 100Hz. Four two by four panels together to make 4x8 would be ideal. Don't leave any reflective spaces between.

If your speakers are 4-6 feet away from side wall you may not hear significant benefit from spot damping the sidewall reflections. Diffusion is much better on side walls, imo. But you might not need anything. If couch must stay on back wall and you move speakers farther apart closer to sidewalls, then diffusing that side wall reflection may help.

Damping the front wall is tricky business. I prefer either using a large area (whole wall or at least 4x8') of binary amplitude diffusion or just leave it bare with no treatment. What is critically important and not mentioned enough is making sure that the distance between the two speakers and the wall is equal, especially at tweeter height. While the distance from tweeter to ear is important for centering the stereo image, the time alignment of the front wall reflected treble energy is even more important to me. I can adjust the balance on my preamp, but the reflected treble energy determines the excitement and "alive" feeling of the system. Even 1/8" misalignment can make a huge difference because treble wavelengths are very short and the distance error is doubled. Measure with a tape from the rear corner of the speaker to the front wall at the height of the tweeter. Sometimes adjusting the speaker feet is necessary and worth the effort.

[rogerlbray]

Wow. Excellent response and very detailed with several good suggestions. Thank you for taking the time to impart this level of information in your response.

[drummermitchell]

Here’s something for Free
Go to Homepot,Home hardware pick up say 4 bags R30(as your ceiling is 8 ft.).
Stack them on top of each other (2 in each corner stacked)in the front corners (Do NOT REMOVE THE PLASTIC Covering.
That actually acts a membrane which is very good as reflects the highs.
Better yet if you hear a Huge improvement with the four Stacked in-front(where your main speakers are),
Get 4 more and stack them in the back corners and let everyone know what a HUGE IMPROVEMENT it is.
What is free if you Love the improvement and do DIY Panels or buy commercial panels you can take them back to the store where you bought them WIN WIN.
True does not coverer the main speaker first reflections which is a Huge improvement.
If you want to try that first reflections,then you will have to buy perhaps a bag Roxull 4-6” thick with the plastic removed.
Yers ago used 244 panels at first reflections,nice improvement,
Then I had some 244s that I put there and wtf a lot more bottom end and just as clear on the top end but added oomph on the bottom end.
Buy the free insulation and try it.
You will be Shocked.

[JakeJ]

How's your soundstage?  Are you getting good front to back depth?  Is the soundstage wide, as in instruments sound like they are coming from outside the area covered between the speakers?

If not you might try a speaker arrangement on the diagonal in the room.

Example:

[JLM]

Do you have any complaints?  The first step to solving a problem involves defining it.  Have you had other audiophiles in to give a serious evaluation of the room (easy to become accustomed to the sound of a room). 

In your square room I'd be more concerned about those bass resonances richidoo mentioned.  In-room bass peaks/dips are inherent, especially in square rooms, and can often be +/- 30 dB!  These peaks/dips are so prevalent that we are conditioned to "hear through them".  If you read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" (3rd edition) you'll find his recommendation to use 4 subwoofers either in the corners or midway along each wall (Toole is a highly regarded acoustician).  Check out AudioKinesis for a 4 subwoofer system called a swarm. 

Another option is the use of DSP (Digital Signal Processing), but Earl Geddes (another respected acoustician) only recommends physical solutions for physical issues.  I tried a couple DSP's.  My small audio club and I were undecided if it made an improvement in my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room where I have ten GIK 2ft x 4ft 244 panels (six full rangers at first reflection points and four bass traps straddling the front corners) and three subwoofers.

Note that diffusors are limited by their depths and the laws of physics (length of sound waves), the deeper the lower.  Typical commercial ones are only effective down to 1100 Hz (7 1/2 inches deep).  Shallower ones would be limited to even higher frequencies. 

Relatively cheap diffusers: randomly filled bookcases.  I use three tall ones on side walls.  Nothing scientific but should be able to go lower than commercially available ones and are adjustable.  The cheap scientific option is going the DIY route and building 18 inch by 18 inch panels using sheets of plywood and painted 2 inch by 2 inch wooden blocks of quadratic varying lengths (0 inches, 1 7/8 inches, 3 3/4 inches, 5 5/8 inches, and 7 1/2 inches).  Warning they weigh 23 pounds each, so mount securely. 

[rogerlbray]

I looked at my room with a more critical eye after some of the posts here. Had to look up reflection points and do a little measuring, LOL.

By happy circumstance (no planning) the sidewall reflection points happen to coincide with the drapes that are floor to ceiling so I think I'm good there.

Also, I wanted to ask about the ceiling. House was built in 1974 so the ceiling is HEAVILY popcorned. I wondered what effect that might have as far as ceiling reflection? Since there is not an actually flat surface as a result of all the popcorn does that diffuse the reflection? I know that even when listening specifically for it, I am not noticing any from above.

As far as the sectional be moved, the wife would not be ok with that. I did fail to mention that during my critical listening sessions, I have a cushioned stool that I place about 4 feet in front of the sectional so it places me about 7 feet off the back wall, or 10 feet from the front of the speakers (given their depth and how far out from the wall they are).

As far as the back wall and insulation stacks (as mentioned by drummermitchell) I might be able to try that but I failed in my original post to give more information about my back wall. While not ideal as I realize I have a large entertainment center with albums, equipment etc. placed between the speakers and a 70" TV as well. Also to the outside of each speaker is a 6' tall wine refrigerator (yes the front of the speakers is pulled out beyond the refigerators) I do have blankets behind the wine refrigerators to dampen noise from the compressors when they come on, so the noise from them is very low and cannot be heard at all when there is music or TV on. I don't believe there is a lot of reflection coming from the back wall from anything except bass, which to my limited understanding, is non-directional for the most part anyway.

The other thing I failed to mention is that I do have a 400w powered sub off to one side. Crossover is set to 40hz since the speakers handle down to the low 30's. I noticed immediately that when I added the sub it cleaned up and tightened the bass from the speakers, I assume because they are no longer trying to deal with frequencies that roll off for them.

And yes JakeJ, as far as soundstage, I am definitely hearing instruments from outside the area of the speakers to the point that I am sometimes looking over to the sides like "What the hell? How am I hearing that from over there?" Front to back depth is there but I don't think it's exceptional. Not much I can do about that in this room since my wife would absolutely have a conniption fit if I tried to move the entire setup around to enhance that aspect, LOL.

Again, thank you all for your ideas and input for this neophyte. I appreciate you taking the time to read and analyze and provide thoughtful input. This beats the HELL out of trying to gain my information from Google searches.

[rogerlbray]

and No, I have not had another audiophile come look at my room. I don't personally know any in fact. I am making this journey on my own, other than you fine people here being nice enough to answer my questions.

[youngho]

I looked at my room with a more critical eye after some of the posts here. Had to look up reflection points and do a little measuring, LOL.

Wait until you discover REW

Also, I wanted to ask about the ceiling. House was built in 1974 so the ceiling is HEAVILY popcorned. I wondered what effect that might have as far as ceiling reflection? Since there is not an actually flat surface as a result of all the popcorn does that diffuse the reflection? I know that even when listening specifically for it, I am not noticing any from above.

Diffusion/scattering would only occur at frequencies higher than you can hear

[rogerlbray]

OK, what's REW?

And if scattering diffusion would only occur at frequencies higher than I can hear, that means that I would hear an audible benefit to more specific treatment for the ceiling?

Sorry for the questions, but I am seriously new to all this and trying to learn as fast as I can without wasting money on things that might provide little or no benefit.

LOL, wife is already a bit frustrated with the amount of time I have recently been spending listening and measuring and making adjustments so I want to maximize benefit/time and money spent ratio.

Again, thanks to everyone for your patience.

[youngho]

OK, what's REW?

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Basically, it's free but surprisingly sophisticated measuring software. Just need a microphone to start.

And if scattering diffusion would only occur at frequencies higher than I can hear, that means that I would hear an audible benefit to more specific treatment for the ceiling?

That's hard to answer, since a lot depends on the rest of your room. Probably yes, but it may not be "worth" the hassle in terms of screwing anchors into the ceiling and the resulting cosmetic.

I am seriously new to all this and trying to learn as fast as I can without wasting money on things that might provide little or no benefit...so I want to maximize benefit/time and money spent ratio.

Maybe it would be helpful to know what you've already perused, also identifying your own preferences and goals.

I assume you've already looked at these: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0

This gives some basics about typical approaches to control rooms (mixing rooms for professionals), but much is still relevant to domestic listening rooms: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/
And then next level: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/sos-guide-control-room-design#para7
On the other hand, Northward (https://www.northwardacoustics.com/) is a very well-known studio designer, so it's interesting to see his comments regarding his home system here: https://gearspace.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/1333291-stereo-recordings-room-acoustics.html

Besides Toole's book "Sound Reproduction" (I'm not sure I would describe him as an acoustician but rather a researcher into domestic loudspeaker performance and listener preference, i.e. the practical side of psychoacoustics), here are links to some possibly helpful additional information: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/refining-a-listener-and-loudspeaker-model-based-on-readings-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/#post-987093. There are a few mistakes in the initial post, which are mentioned later in the discussion.

[JLM]

Roger:

Can you find a dedicated room to listen in?  With wife issues, noisy wine refrigerator, and having to sit on a stool the room it seems quite compromised.  An ideal room would be non-square, not small, well insulated, and dedicated to audio.  My basement room fits that: 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios); well insulated (including door and ductwork with no windows); and dedicated (audio in the front, office in the back). 

[rogerlbray]

No. I will not be able to have a dedicated listening room.  Doing the best I can with what I have available. I'll read through the information referenced and start playing with REW over the next few days. Looks like a learning curve with it.

[JLM]

Roger, have you considered headphones?  You'd give up imaging but gain a lot.

[youngho]

No. I will not be able to have a dedicated listening room.  Doing the best I can with what I have available. I'll read through the information referenced and start playing with REW over the next few days. Looks like a learning curve with it.

Oh yes. I've only scratched the surface of REW, myself. This is a good place to start: https://www.dropbox.com/s/51jpnxet3bvew2k/REW%20101%20HTS%20Current%20Version.pdf?dl=0

[rogerlbray]

As you indicated imaging would be missing with the headphones, but for me I would miss the physical impact of music more. Yes the detail from headphones is unbeatable but I like to feel music through my body as well