AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: Vinnie R. on 27 Jul 2005, 01:45 am
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All,
I have received numerous emails and/or PM's aout the new prototype Omega speakers that I now own, which use the Visaton B200 full-range driver.
I posted some pics here, and will be posting more info about them as soon as Louis sends it to me:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Omega_B200_Aperiodic.html
I have been doing some serious late-night listening and would like to share my initial impressions of these new speakers using a modded Clari-T and custom battery-modded Squeezebox 2's analog outputs (will be posting mods for it soon):
Let me begin by stating that these are the tightest, fastest sounding speaker that I've had the pleasure to listen to! I thought my Super 3's were lightning fast, but these take the cake. :o How can that be??? I would have never guessed that this 8" driver would have better transient attack and speed than the F127E, but in this aperiodic enclosure, it clearly does! The bass control is AMAZINGLY good, and there is NO boominess to speak of, and I have these placed only about 1-foot from the rear wall....no problems at all! Take Patricia Barber's "You and the Night and the Music" (track 3) from Modern Cool. There is a bass solo in the middle of that song that is very demanding on speaker and amplifier control. This speaker has this bass solo licked down perfectly! BTW, I'm using a test CD and am getting a solid in-room bass response down to 50-55Hz, and it rolls off slowly after that. I don't have measuring equipment on hand to give the details...
Next, dymanics are startling and stunning! These speakers seem to be meant for percussion instruments, which I quickly found out by playing the Bozzio, Levin, and Steven's "Black Light Syndrome" CD (Track # 3) that Lonewolf_NY was so kind to give to me at the NY Audiorave (thanks, Chris!). Wow! You need to hear it to believe it! Very, very nice! :P
The top-end is actually more extended and open sounding than the Super 3's as well, which again, is a big surprise with this 8" driver (well, I knew it was better because I tried these in an open baffle before I gave them to Louis). There is plenty of detail and sparkle up top, and it just makes me ponder how Visaton pulled it off in their design...
The one area where I believe the Super 3s have an advantage over these speakers is with female vocals. They sound a little more natural to me on the Super 3's, but I really need to listen more and allow for proper break-in (I only have around 60 hours on these drivers, and I remember my F127Es sounded substantially better after 200 hours of use), and I need to play around with postioning as well. These are just my initial impressions...
These speakers play a lot louder than the Super 3's, and the 6-watts from the Clari-T is more than enough here! All of the key strenghts of the Clari-T (and Lotus) come shining through with these speakers! I believe Louis said these speakers are around 95 or 96dB..
I've been asked how these new speakers compare to the open-baffle configuration. Well, there is certainly improved bass response (stronger, deeper, more punch). The OB config gave me a more diffuse sound that was very 3-D. These aperiodic enclosures create a more focused sound with better imaging, but doesn't have that spooky 3-D "magic-thang" going on that the open-baffles delivered. Keep in mind that no other box or horn speakers I've heard were able to do it like that either.
Build quality first-rate, as you would expect from Louis. He told me that he's using the R-compound and other special goodies in that enclosure, and as you can see from the photos, there are two aperiodic vents on the back instead of tuned ports. A pair of Lotus-style Cardas binding posts are also installed. I forgot to take pics with the grills on, which are the magnet grills (black) and look great. Between having the ability to place these close to the rear wall, and the stout but elegant looks, these speakers seem to have the WAF (I tested this out on my wife, and she liked their appearance *MUCH* better than the clear acrylic open baffles, which I caught hell for btw.. :argue: :bawl: )
Let me close this initial post by thanking BOTH Dmason (for finding these beautifully engineered B200 drivers and turning me onto purchasing them), and Louis for doing all the aperiodic enclosure simulations, experimenting, and finishing the job so damn well! :thumb: You guys both make this a ton of fun!
Again, more detailed info will be posted (See the link above) soon...
Thanks,
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COOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o
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The Visaton site offers an intriguing model called the NoBox. It incorporates a 15" high eff. bass driver as a supplement for the OB design. Sells as a kit for $483 USD each side for two drivers, crossover and binding posts. Look here and click on "details" for an enthusiastic review:
http://www.visaton.de/english/uebersicht/6_89_u.html
I really like the notion of dipolar bass although I have heard it only from planars and electrostatics, and don't see why the clarity and articulation I heard wouldn't also be present with cone speakers, given suitable amplifier damping factor.
Russell
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Wow Vinnie, you and Louis are rocking! This is quite an impressive array of combined offerings you guys are cooking up.
Louis, is it a requirement of the aperiodic design that the vents be in the rear, or would front-firing vents work ok also? I know Vinnie said that he has them a foot from the wall, but I've got a home theater installation that is even tigher than that. The TS-1s work brilliantly in that situation with their front ports.
On that subject, would either of you care to compare and contrast the 8" Visiton to the 8" Fostex, and of course your new 8" hemp? Vinnie, your comment about the stunning dynamics of the Visaton has be intrigued, since that is such an important charaterstic for movies - as long as I don't have to give up my sweet sounding midrange for music!
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I posted some pics here, and will be posting more info about them as soon as Louis sends it to me:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Omega_B200_Aperiodic.html
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I just added some updates :smoke:
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I know Vinnie said that he has them a foot from the wall, but I've got a home theater installation that is even tigher than that. The TS-1s work brilliantly in that situation with their front ports.
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Hi Bwanagreg,
I'm pretty certain that you can put these very close to the rear walls if you need to. These are not tuned bass ports, so you won't get the issues associated with placing rear ported speakers too close to the wall.
However, let's wait for Louis to confirm this for us...
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Those things are freakin' beautiful. What is an aperiodic cabinet? I'm already planning my next purchase, and these are Definitely in the running. Is there a hemp version of these planned? I'll bet with the big T/S capabilities of these drivers they could CRANK if called upon.
Very cool.
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Russell - great link to the NoBox.
It appears the xover drops the sensitivity to 90db though.
Some of the other designs are pretty interesting, too.
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Refers to a type of bass-cabinet loading. An aperiodic enclosure type usually features a very restrictive, (damped), port. The purpose of this restrictive port is not to extend bass response, but lower the Q of the system and reduce the impedance peak at resonance. Most restrictive ports are heavily stuffed with fiberglass, dacron or foam.
Aperiodic Enclosure - an otherwise sealed enclosure design, but with a vent that is stuffed with damping material, which flattens out the impedance curve of the design. The area of this resistive vent should be about 10 sq. in. per cubic ft. of enclosure volume. This design might take some experimentation with the vent stuffing, testing the impedance curve several times with different amounts of damping material until the
flattest impedance curve is found. The aperiodic resistive vent damps the driver in much the same way as fully stuffing a sealed enclosure with damping material (100% fill).
Essentially a poorly sealed box, an aperiodic box vents the inside of the box to the outside air via an "acoustic resistor". All other comments about sealed boxes generally apply. The purpose of an aperiodic design is to allow a smaller enclosure than would normally be possible. If you put a driver into a sealed box that's too small, it will exhibit high Q, causing a peak in its lower response and a high impedance peak. By letting the box leak air, both the response and impedance peaks are tamed. Aperiodic boxes should not be confused with ported boxes (discussed below). The essential difference is that a that the port in a ported box acts as a Helmholz resonator tuned to a specific frequency in order to enhance and extend the low frequency response. Aperiodic vent designs exhibit no such characteristic resonance and functions solely as an acoustic resistance. As with any other low frequency system, the smaller size is achieved at the cost of a somewhat higher F3 and a steeper 18 dB/octave roll off than a sealed system.
Fantasy shootout- Omega B200 vs. Zu Tone
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Thanks for the info. And, those two are at the top of the list! Actually, they ARE the list.
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Those things are freakin' beautiful. What is an aperiodic cabinet? I'm already planning my next purchase, and these are Definitely in the running. Is there a hemp version of these planned? I'll bet with the big T/S capabilities of these drivers they could CRANK if called upon.
Very cool.
Hi Miklorsmith,
Yes, Louis is using the same enclosure for his HempTone speakers, but it will be rear ported (using the big flared "power port"), not aperiodic vented like shown in the pics. The B200s are NOT to be used in a ported box, but they are great for sealed boxes, and open baffles.
I believe the reason why Louis decided on the aperiodic box was to make it act like a much larger box to the B200, which is required to get a much flatter response in the bass...down to the low 50's Hz. Konut explains the theory very well in the post above (thanks Konut!). Louis also is doing a whole bunch of tweaky things inside the box, along with tweaks to the B200 driver itself.
Louis also is also coming out with a floor stander for the HempTones, and who knows, may make the same floor stander enclosure aperiodic style for the B200! :wink:
Regarding the Visaton NoBox, now your dealing with a Xover and more complexity, less efficiency, etc. I would think that if one wants more bass, the Omega B200 Aperiodic would be easier to mate with a fast subwoofer, as it is not ported and has a more gentile bass rolloff. I am not looking for a sub and I am very satisfied with the bass I'm getting, but I know there are bass nuts out there...you know who you are! :lol: :mrgreen:
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"could CRANK if called upon..."
Mike,
The B200 is no shrinking violet. It is a power speaker, and can very easily sink 40-50 watts and can get incredibly LOUD by my standards, and not compress at all. A couple of these could make for a deadly short-throw, hi rez PA system, let there be no doubt.... I hooked them up to my Hafler 9505, 250wpc, which has been used for years as a backline amp in a key-rig, and they just slammed, I really liked them. If anything, I would say they excel when driven abit.
The dynamic capabilities, speed of the thing with the higher current, higher output Vino mojo Teac for example, has to be heard to be appreciated. Anyone yearning for the other-worldly sonic of the B200 who don't have the inclination or space for OB should belly up for these babies embedded in the Good Wood, from Father O'Mega. I like.
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"could CRANK if called upon..."
Mike,
I hooked them up to my Hafler 9505, 250wpc, which has been used for years as a backline amp in a key-rig, and they just slammed, I really liked them. If anything, I would say they excel when driven abit.
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THATS what I'm talkin about!!
VinnieR-The aperiodic info was lifted from BoxModel 1.0 for Windows. Just in the right place at the right time.
miklorsmith- if you happen to get both units in the same room I'd make the drive from Spokane to get a listen, if its ok with you. My 2 prime candidates as well.
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Hi Everybody,
Many thanks to Vinnie and Dmason big time for the genesis of the new speaker. Thanks again Vinnie for posting your impressions.
This driver is an amazing a unbelievable find from Dan. The B200 and the HempTone drivers have that amazing tone and bring single drivers to the next level. Both impress me in so many ways.
konut has the explanation down on the aperiodic load and when I got Vinnies drivers it was the first thing I thought about. The box itself is 1.25 cubic feet and adding the aperiodic vents add more box volume and lowers the overall Qtc. I didn't want to have any electronic component in the path at all. I'm also sharing the cabinets with the hemps and this really helps reduce costs a lot.
Hi Greg,
Many thanks and getting together on the new stuff has been great. Dan's input really got it rolling.
The vents work better on the back wall and I have played with this loading a lot when I was making subs years ago. The rear wall placement is not a problem at all compared to reavented BR speakers. They are so fast as well and no worries about added room gain.
For HT these will rock and can handle a lot of power the speed and resolution is great for HT soundtracks.
The Hemps and the B200 are very similar. The Hemps in the vented box will go lower and room placement is more important. The both have great tone and the top end is amazing. Very extended and no need for tweeters at all. The Fostex is a bit different and the difference other than the top end extension is the midrange clari t and transparency.
Hi Russell,
Lots of cool stuff on the site and they really think outside of the box. I have Maggies and the dipole sound is amazing in very many ways. I have to build the Darkstar for my room and ditch the Maggies.
Hi miklorsmith,
Really happy you like the look of the speakers. The teak is really nice too.
Konut had is down on the aperiodic loading. The Hemp compact is in the same cabinet, but witha 3" precision port on the rear. They go lower and have big punch to them. The balance is a little different, but very fast and transparent. The hemp cone has so much to do with this. Vocals have a bit more weight and you need at least 3 feet from the back wall when broken in.
Hi Brad,
Really great stuff and ideas on the visiton site. The added electronics do lower the SPL.
Hi Dan,
You are so right about these in everyway. They can crank it out no worries at all. I can only imagine a dual driver 1.5 way with these. In a separate boxes like a modular system. Would fill any room. Soon I'll get up to Tommy's and try them out on big power. I did use the Lotus to exclusively with them from the beginning and the Teac would get them to rip.
Most of all many thanks for starting it all.
I'm all for a shootout and it would be very interesting. One thing about price I can say right now is much lower than the Zu speakers.
Thanks again,
Louis
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An in-house shootout? Let the best speaker win and send back the other?? Intriguing. I'd have to get the blessings of the makers before embarking on such a thing and it definitely won't happen for a couple months. My revenue stream isn't there Quite yet.
Having the Druids already, I have the utmost respect for the Zu boys. Being a repeat Vinnie customer and knowing the tremendous work Louis does and the rabid following makes the other option very interesting as well. I still have passing interest in the Decware Radials too. I've got a contact in Seattle that has Druids and RL-3's and likes them both. He likes the Druids quite a bit better, but they're more expensive and room-dominating. Decware's return policy for speakers SUCKS, so you better like them if you get them.
I just haven't been able to get over there with summertime in full swing. I've got a few buddies with new soundtoys that I just haven't gotten around to scoping for the same reason. Durnblasted sunshine! :D
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Hi Everybody,
I'm all for a shootout and it would be very interesting. One thing about price I can say right now is much lower than the Zu speakers.
Thanks again,
Louis.
If the price is right, I might just have to bring the the Omega B200s to Seattle! Who do I have to sweettalk to to get the first production pair? Please PM me. :mrgreen:
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I've got a few amps and some tasty gear. Two different systems and rooms too. This could be really fun! Um, honey, um, you're going to need to take the kids away for a few days. . .
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Mike,
I have been thinking about a trip to Seattle/Victoria, and to see MttBsh, who also wants to come over to hear the Druids. Hmmm... could be fun. Very interesting opp. to tear and compare. Especially in the fall, when the air clears off and the ...Northern Lights come out. So to speak.
"the meek shall inherit nothing." -- Frank Zappa
"the rest of us shall escape into outer space." DM
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On that subject, would either of you care to compare and contrast the 8" Visiton to the 8" Fostex, and of course your new 8" hemp? Vinnie, your comment about the stunning dynamics of the Visaton has be intrigued, since that is such an important charaterstic for movies - as long as I don't have to give up my sweet sounding midrange for music!
Hi Bwanagreg,
Sorry, I forgot to answer your question above:
In my honest opinion, the Omega B200 Aperiodic is in a whole other league compared to the Grande 8's, which use the 8" Fostex. The B200 is tighter and faster in the bass department, the top end is much more extended, and the midrange transparency is clearly superior.
The Grande 8's probably have more bass SLAM, but not with the same accuracy and control as the B200s.
Regards,
Vinnie
PS: I'll post more impressions by the end of the week...
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I am getting Zu Druids tomorrow (Jul 28) and therefore I could do a shootout with them, my current Omega Grande 8R and the new Omega B200s. How about sending me a pair Louis???
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Yes thanks for the previously posted info.With the combination of Louis' audio expertise and cabinetry skills we are in for a big treat.
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Thanks for the responses everyone. This is some exciitng S***!
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As the owner of a set of the Visatons, I am patiently (well, that is probably a stretch... :lol: ) waiting to hear about cabinet costs.
Looking forward to some ears on this design, and if the price is right, perhaps even my own!
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Mark
Yes, I'm waiting for info on the cabinets too. Will we be able to buy them separately from the drivers, because we already have the drivers!
From Vinnie's site it looks like they are modding the drivers so we may be out of luck.
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Hats off to Vinnie and Louis for giving the customers what they want faster than anyone would imagine was possible.
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Tyee - we will have to wait and see how the design comes to market, if people like us will simply be able to buy cabinets, and do the driver install on our own - I do see some reference to driver mods, but no details.
I would understand if that is not something that these guys want to publish...
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Yes, I'm waiting for info on the cabinets too. Will we be able to buy them separately from the drivers, because we already have the drivers!
From Vinnie's site it looks like they are modding the drivers so we may be out of luck....
All,
I did bring this to the attention to Louis, and he seemed willing to reduce the total price of the finished speakers if one sends their B200s to him so he can tweak them and install them in his custom aperiodic cabinet.
He is in the process of figuring out the pricing info, and I promise to post this as soon as it becomes available...
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Sounds like a KICK A** deal sounds like a contender !!!
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Hi all,
Thanks Vinnie and I would be happy to mod the drivers and take care of cabinets for anyone who has the drivers already. I wouldn't think of charging anything to mod the drivers.
The speakers are Factory direct and I have some figuring to do. Looks like there will be 2 prices and only in regard to finish. Standard finishes will be the laminates (Red & Black Parisian Maple, Blue Artic). The ebony and Teak will be $150 more due to the material being so expensive. The Rmods are standard as well.
I promise to have prices posted very soon and I will post on Vinnies site as well.
Many thanks,
Louis
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Hi miklorsmith,
This is a great idea and could be a lot of fun.
I can't wait for the Denver show everything will be there. In the meantime something might work out. I also look forward to meeting the ZU guys too. I hear a lot of great things about them.
Hi Konut,
Maybe the comparison will happen faster.
Hi Seminarian,
The Grande 8R comparison would be very interesting and anything could happen.
Many thanks,
Louis
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All,
My Omega B200s have been breaking in (I use a 10Hz tone and let it run on repeat all night...really moving them drivers :P ), and the sound just keeps getting better. Bass is hitting even harder and the vocals are really sounding open and pure.
I plan to spend more time listening over the weekend and I'll update my findings on this thread.
Cheers!
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All,
Pricing info is now available:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Omega_B200_Aperiodic.html
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WOW!! Let's see, where's that credit card :?:
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Very nice. Now you can get 8.5 octaves out of the B200 in a reasonably sized box without EQ.
Pricing seems in line with other Omega offerings and very competitive with other companies. Louis is a very pleasant chap and the quality of his work is beyond reproach. With stands you'd be looking at about $1400 for 8.5 octaves of organic greased lightning at 95 dB/w/m and 6 ohms.
For around $2000 you could add a Clari-T with Auricap and Black Gate upgrades for a very killer system, just add your favorite source.
BTW Vinnie just annouced mods for the SqueezeBox 2. Now the very killer system is complete for under $3000 plus PC!!
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WOW!! Let's see, where's that credit card :?:
:idea:
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Vinnie R. :
I plan to spend more time listening over the weekend and I'll update my findings on this thread.
[/list:u]Thanks Vinnie ! Since you have heard the new "Hemp" speaker , do you think you can compare the two(Hemp vs B200), and relate what differences you hear ? Thanks !!! :) [/list:u]
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I spoke a little with Loius over the phone re; hemps vs B200s and one thing he did mention i believe that with the hemps room placement is a more critical issue.Maybe he can comment more on this.
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I for one am very curious about the aperiodic v. the hemps both sonically, placement and cost wise....
of course any new offering by loius is fun to watch.....
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Vinnie R. :I plan to spend more time listening over the weekend and I'll update my findings on this thread.
[/list:u]Thanks Vinnie ! Since you have heard the new "Hemp" speaker , do you think you can compare the two(Hemp vs B200), and relate what differences you hear ? Thanks !!! :) [/list:u]
Hi Chris,
It is hard to give a good apples-to-apples comparison on the B200s vs. HempTones because I have not heard the HempTones in my listening room. However, I was able to hear them both in the Omega Room (for a limited listening session), so I'll comment on that:
1) Both speakers are in the same sized enclsoure, but the enclosure type is different (sealed aperiod vs. bass reflex). The HempTone is a little bit more efficient.
2) The B200s are tighter, faster (the tightest, fastest box speaker I've heard to date!) and easier to place in a room, while the HempTones have more bass output and slam factor, but need more care in placing them because they are rear-ported.
3) Both have excellent treble extension. The Hemptone uses an Omega custom modified whizzer, while the B200 uses no whizzer at all.
4) The HempTones seemed to have a little more richness to the midrange, but also had a lot more break-in on the driver.
Again, I really need to hear the broken-in HempTones in my house to get a better comparsion to my now well broken in B200s. Louis will make the trip up one of these days. Now that I have become familiar with my B200s in my listening room, it will be easier to detect the differences between the two speakers once I hear HempTones over here. Both are fantastic sounding speakers, and IMO, the creme of the crop of Omegas! :singing:
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Thanks Vinnie !!! I was impressed with the "Hemp's" at Hogg's/Jim's Rave...sounded very good in the small room, and even better in the larger room :hyper: . So that is why I asked about how the two compare.
Happy listening !!![/list:u]
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Thanks Vinnie.... :P
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Hi Vinnie,
Many thanks for posting about the Hemp vs. the B200. You’re right on with the sound and I can add that the HempTone speaker just rips with guitar and a bit more dynamic. The B200 are timing champs and more articulate. Almost like a Dr Jekyl MR. Hyde thing going on. For smaller rooms the B200 might have an edge.
Both are amazing and the best so far.
Hi JLM,
Costs on all the new speakers are a priority and I try my best to keep them as low as I can. Since I started, it's amazing how much costs on material have risen. Having the B200 as Factory direct with the Lotus makes it pretty easier for me to keep the prices low.
Hi Chris,
When I get the drivers in I would be happy to arrange something so you can hear the B200. This will be a lot of fun.
Talk to you soon,
Louis
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:idea: Vents can be easily sealed, and ports can be easily stuffed shut. Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder about an Omega cabinet with ports AND vents and T nuts on the rebate for interchangeably mounting BOTH hemptone and B200 drivers, a sort of JumbOmega speaker. :lol: ..... :o This could work, it would seem.
"Give the people what they want." --P.T. Barnum
Next, ToneTubby is now offering inexpensive hemp re-cones for JBL 2226 and EV15 bass speakers. They say the difference is night and day.
Now imagine a HempTone 15 inch 2226 JBL in an Omega alignment, something like a very small high efficiency horn/bandpass design, and the mains being fed a pure, jitter-free signal from the Mad mod SB2, into a ClariT, and being able to swap these drivers in less than two minutes :idea:
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eeee....these new models make me and my alinco's feel so errr insignificant...
wonder how those fostex guys feel
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wonder how those fostex guys feel
... like my whizzer is getting smaller all the time ... :oops:
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A couple of questions about the visaton driver. I have been interested in if for awhile but was told it has a large peak in the midrange. Just wondering what Louis has done to rectify this. Also is it suitable for 3.5 watts or does it like more power to get going?
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Skiite
Seen the plots, read the cautions ALL of which were written by those who never heard the driver, been through five pairs with another pair on the way: what the experts comment on does not bear out in practice. On OB, they are incredibly balanced, the best musical balance of ANY driver I have yet heard, heard plenty, owned plenty, and have been studying them through good ol' purchase n use, for the last two years. I have spent thousands looking into wide range drivers, and the B200 are without compare, thus far.
Sounds like they work pretty well in an aperiodic alignment based on what I have read. Louis would not have released the finished speaker otherwise, and Louis is not into corrective surgery, understanding that it defeats the purpose of, and quality gained by direct coupling, crossoverless systems.
Run direct, the driver has never needed any signal surgery in my experience, having recently completed commissions for five full range open baffle systems with the B200 as mains for friends, and they are mad about their new speaker systems . Hopefully this will serve to extinguish your needless concerns here. They are great. Get some!!
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Dmason
Appreciate your response and you have gone a lone way to allay my fears. What size open baffle did you use for them? I'm not sure I have a large enough room for an open baffle but am intrigued by them. That's one reason I'm so interested by Louis's aperiodic design.
thanks skite30
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Skite - I am running a pair of these on 44x36 baffles, hinged in 2 places, so that they fold. I know that some have reported great results on baffles as small as 12 inches wide, if attached to a wall on one side, and subs employed.
This thread might be of great use to you, if you are considering a set of the b200's... lots of folks exchanged ideas there, and I have posted pics of the two different baffles I have tried.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19253
I am working (planning actually) on a 3rd variant, for use in my new home, but I too have looked long and hard at that aperiodic cabinet recently unveiled.
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Dmason
Thanks for the link, I had missed that one. Looks like hours of enjoyable reading.
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It will be a long read, but will cover a lot of ground, and addresses many of the issues that people seeking to use the b200 in OB may encounter.
It is a great archive for folks interested in this driver, for a DIY alternative to the design listed here.
Having heard this OB design in my own room, I am really interested in how the aperiodic cabinet sounds, but at the moment am on the fence.
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Mark if they are ready ill certainly bring them down later this month...for our audition....from what louis said they should be ready by next week :D
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That would be an awesome day, if we could put the Visaton OB and Aperiodics in the same room, a Clari-T, the little JVC I have been using, and my main rig of the Nak/Monarchy/Mensa/Hagerman Clarinet/Bolder Teac all in the same room, and see what happens!
Hope those cabinets travel well from the States, and arrive in time!
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That would be an awesome day, if we could put the Visaton OB and Aperiodics in the same room, a Clari-T, the little JVC I have been using, and my main rig of the Nak/Monarchy/Mensa/Hagerman Clarinet/Bolder Teac all in the same room, and see what happens!
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Hi Mark,
I hope powerbench will get the Omega B200s in time. Powered by his custom Clari-T, you'll get a big ol' taste of speed, resolution, dynamics, and all that good stuff! :wink:
I'd also love to hear your impressions of them powered by your new JVC all-in-one...
Regards,
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Hope it works out ...Im sure Louis will do what we can,if not that day soon after :mrgreen:
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I wonder whether perhaps someone here might have a less dismissive answer than DMason's, to the question about the frequency response (and, for that matter, sensitivity). Louis?
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Speaker Specifications:from the website...
Sensitivity: 95dB
Impedance: 6-ohms
Driver: 8” full range Visaton B200, with custom modified backwaves and basket tweaks
Freq response: 52Hz – 18K
Power requirement : as little as 2 watts
Cross-over : None
Warranty 10 year parts and labor for workmanship and defects
Weight : 35 pounds each
there are driver specs on the Visaton site but I am sure your asking about the in-cabinet room measurements...correct...??
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I wonder whether perhaps someone here might have a less dismissive answer than DMason's, to the question about the frequency response (and, for that matter, sensitivity). Louis?
At first I was somewhat perturbed at this statement about the FR question, as I thought Dmason gave a pretty detailed response. Usually I ignore statements like this as I find that responding with an arguementative bent results in a circle of diminishing returns. But it got me thinking about the human perception and what MIGHT be going on here.
It has been my experience that different materials result in different perception of distinct presentations of the various frequency bands. For example, there are opinions about the sound of different materials used in the construction woofer cones. Kevlar, carbon fiber, paper, hemp polyglass, and metal all have their various strenghts and weaknesses based on the mass to stiffness ratios and their ability to suppress and control out of band resonances. Some of these perceptions can be confirmed and quantified with impulse response and distortion measurements. Of course shape of the cone, basket materials, and design, and a myriad of other varibles enter into the equation. It is also the case with tweeters as I'm sure you've all heard differences in the presentations of domes, inverted domes, horns, compression drivers, and the different materials used in their construction such as aluminum, titanium, magnesium, silk, and even paper.
With the B200, as reveled in the monster Darkstar thread on page 7 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19253&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=darkstar&start=60 , the material used in the cone is hemp fiber. The dust cap also appears to be hemp as well. I suspect the unique properties of this material are what give this driver its percieved smoothness and eveness of presentation as noted by almost everyone that has heard it, be it open baffle or aperiodic loading. You may not be aware of the magical properties of hemp. :mrgreen: If you don't already have one, I suggest you aquire a Mach II Tympano-cochleometer( I LOVE that) to confirm it for yourself!
The stated sensitivity of the Omega B200 Aperiodic is 95db as noted on the Redwine Audio page devoted to this speaker. Looking forward to Louis response as well.
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Well personally I dont get too excited what goes on here re;opinions etc...there is often a 'variation' between conotation and denotation in posts ( what people write and actually mean ,and then there is your own interpetation of posts).
I can appreciate the question,the specs and all the goobly gook which gets tossed around in audiophilia .
I like to trust my ears,see if I really enjoy the speakers not just the specs. ...there are alot of products and sellers out there ,the funny thing is I trust Vinnie and Louis with their own perceptions,dialogue and skill....so if I was going to invest in something longterm and take a gamble on :o it will be the guy who I know isnt going to screw me over for a few bucks.
Louis and Vinnie are really cool nice guys. FYI I could probably construct my own cabinets etc ,but what i am buying here with Louis is decades of his own experience. Louis goes to the big shows,has made hundreds of speakers and listens to his customers.
He is a virtual ' one man show' and obviously good enough to pay the bills. I admire that .Alot of shops get to big too fast and eventually fold because of it.To me he has the formula of success.If not he has no lunch money.
I can venture in spending dozens of hours and try to copy something similair to his designs but I doubt I would be able to imitate what Louis can do, even in a rough box.I have worked constuction and am very knowledgable with tools. Speakers to me are not just a matter of box building but of synergy and art.There are alot of components that need critical placement,dampening and modification.If something is a little off or not perfect I know the end result would be missing.
I am not criticizing you DYI guys out there. I am all for saving a few bucks with a hobby but I well aware of my own abilities. So its all a matter of personal choice. I am also not one to jump on the 'Newest product bandwagon' either. The thing with Louis is I 'know' he doesn't spit out his products without some thought. :idea:
To me thats what important :| trusting those you can trust....not just how flat the frequency curve is.....
I am happy with the Mini me but i may sell ithem ,if not they will be hooked to my pc for a futre endeavor .Since the B200s cost roughly 10x as much as the Minime's I am looking forward too much more. :D
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Well, the math and science vs human experience versions of how things work or sound, is a long, storied, and muddy trail. Lots of folks on both sides of that equation.
For me, I looked at the FR plots, and expressed some concern. When I first assembled the OB b200's I was using them with my Hagerman pre, and Bolder modded Teac. Unbroken in, the system was really bright, and quite reflective of the FR plots. Over the last 2-3 months, this has changed remarkably - driver break in? Not sure, don't care.
Using the JVC EX A1 with the b200's, the sound is rich and full, with only +1 on the bass through the unit, no loudness button or anything. I would estimate bass down to 80-90Hz this way, which makes sense given the OB implementation that I am using.
So, I find that the FR plots are not accurate for a broken in driver.
Scientifically I don't have a clue, but subjectively, these are doing it for me. I look forward to hearing the Aperiodic implementation when powerbench visits, and we can do a direct A/B in my room.
I would say that experimentation is the key here, and some will be held back by the FR plots. Others will push past that, and find out what the fuss is about, or not. I fall into the second camp over here...
So be it.
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We shall soon see...looking forward to the visit :D
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We shall soon see...looking forward to the visit :D
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We shall soon see...looking forward to the visit :D
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We shall soon see...looking forward to the visit :D
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Did you stutter on the mouse click to 'submit' ? :o
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oops sorry to all the viewers out there :oops:
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just teasing, PB
Can't wait for someone to receive their Omega B200's.....interested in how they do with the Clari-T and also with tubes...... :D
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One thing that I am familiar with in such one-driver, crossoverless designs, is that they are sometimes unable to handle very complex music, like orchestral jazz and progressive rock pieces.
I was also told, however, that these new drivers were a response to those claims. Can anybody fill me in on the detail/resolution/complexity of these speakers in comparison to their older models?
And... are these for preview at the factory in Norwalk, CT? If so, I'll certainly make the drive up :D
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Aman,
there will always be a compromise with any design. When I see these comments about single drivers not handling complex music ..it cracks me up. :lol:
It's more about how loud you listen with them. If you listen to music above 90 or 95db.... single drivers won't excel in this area. What they do have is speed like nothing I've heard besides ribbons and electrostats. At sane levels the FR will glide through complex music. So much info seems to get loss in complex crossovers. This is very easy to hear once your ears become tuned to their sound. Of course this is my experience and humble opinion.
For me listening at 95 dB is a good way to cut this hobby short .Since your hearing will be terrible after a couple of years. I'm glad the previous owner of my speakers was a rocker...because I feel like I got a terrific deal on true world class speakers in the sound department. :wink:
We pick our poison and live with it. You must decide which poison works best for you.
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One thing that I am familiar with in such one-driver, crossoverless designs, is that they are sometimes unable to handle very complex music, like orchestral jazz and progressive rock pieces.
I listen to a LOT of prog on the now inadequate :roll: Fostex 8" and can't imagine where this impression came from. Anyone who's heard my system is amazed by the detail and ability to resolve complex prog-like stuff. I agree though that if you want to listen at crazy loud volumes (not "merely" loud) you'll have this problem. The best way to extend the volume range of any smaller speaker is to add an electronic crossover and subwoofer if you think you need to (I tried it but pulled it out except for movies).
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I like the B200 EXACTLY because of its ability to dissect individual instrumentation; this also is the forte of Tripath amps. The two are like a hand-in-glove operation, virtually unparalleled in my opinion. The warm timbre of the T amps, with the TONE TONE TONE of hemp, or "manila" based cone material is pretty much where I stop in this quest.
I second the motion to refer this notion to the Department of Sweeping Generalizations. That one seems right in there with the "avoid the B200 because of its rising frequency response," crowd.
And speaking of complex material, orchestral, or prog rock you say? Try Tchaikovsky's 5th, or Yes' newly remastered 'Awaken,' to see about the ability of wide range drivers of this calibre, and their ability to portray accurately, what is actually going on in a complex recording. It doesn't get any more complicated than some of this stuff.
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You guys have easily convinced me now :D
Do you guys think that Louis has a demo pair ready for trying out at his factory?
Thanks guys. This entire community has been very helpful.
-Andrew
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Unbroken in, the system was really bright, and quite reflective of the FR plots. Over the last 2-3 months, this has changed remarkably - driver break in? Not sure, don't care.
...
So, I find that the FR plots are not accurate for a broken in driver.
Thanks Mark, that's an interesting observation. I've been interested in the drivers since long before they showed up here, but I was disappointed that the published curves show the sensitivity too low to mate with the woofer I was planning to use them with. I've had bad experiences with drivers with similar plots in the past, once bitten etc..
I won't bother responding to Dmason's sweeping generalization.
Cheers
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Hi Dan,
That’s the idea of the speakers. I really like versatility and your right about vents being stuffed and the 2 drivers are only slightly different in Diameter. The Hemps are a tiny bit smaller. Retrofitting is easy with a router. Just cut a chamfer and the B200 will fit.
Also a 1.5 way system can easily be done with adding another compact cabinet under the main cabinet. Instant floorstanding 1.5 way. This could be added at anytime too.
Big speaker projects are eating away at me. I can really see me building them in the future. HempTones and Tone Tubbies are made side by side at the factory. Not to difficult to make 12” or 15”s.
Hi Kbuzz and Bwanagreg,
Fostex drivers are really good too and started the whole thing with Fostex. I’ve learned so much in using them that much of what goes into the Fostex speakers are incorporated in the new speakers.
Hi skite30,
I have tried the both new speakers with my tube gear as well as the Lotus and my Bottlehead 2A3s run them with no worry. I also got the approval of Don Garber in regards to the B200 and the 6-ohm load.
The drivers have been tweaked to reduce peaks in the mids. With what I have done the balance is very good.
Hi Dmason,
You hit this topic head on and I agree 1000%. Hearing is believing and I heard and I’m hooked. I also heard and bought many drivers and some that where $2000 a pair that no way and no how has the Tone or balance of the Hemps or the B200s. I would never, ever release a speaker I didn’t 100% believe in. Specs and graphs aren’t the whole picture here.
Also, if I can’t voice a speaker system mechanically to my liking, I wont build it.
Makes no sense to get really caught up in manufacturers plots. Most are fudged beyond belief anyway. Pretty soon Voice coil is going to release the real specs on many drivers.
Hi mcgsxr,
Thanks for the links and skite, it’s really worth it.
Hi Powerbench,
Once I get your drivers they are good to go. It would be great if Mark can listen to yours.
Hi Mark,
I will get them out next week for sure and with the Clari t it’s an amazing combo.
Hi JohnR,
I measured my completed speakers in my room (52Hz) and Vinnie’s (45Hz). The balance is excellent and about SPL. The Hemptones are 96dB and the B200 are very close to this in my room.
It’s really hard to post more about the issue from what I’ve read from Powerbench, Konut and Mark. They have done a great job in regards to this issue. I can only stress that you have to hear the drivers to understand what they can do.
Hi Aman,
These 2 new drivers are definitely a response to your question. They can handle complex material and Rock is not a problem. Vinnie knows what I listen too over here at the shop and when the new B200s come in, it would be my pleasure for you to stop by.
Hi Bwanagreg and GHM,
I really don’t know why this came about either. Right from the beginning I always played complex stuff. At the N.Y. Rave, The HempTones where right there with the much larger Tannoy Turnberry with complex music.
Hi Andrew,
Give me a call and we’ll set it up.
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"Big speaker projects are really eating away at me..."
Maybe I should plan a holiday in Connecticut, where we could take a few days and just build some of these ideas, like a B200 Theater Series, with nice 15" JBL on bottom, or BMS Coaxial point source BIG box stuff, and really take Vinnie's sound out on the road. I only heard the ClariT on the cone part of these things and MAN :o did I like it. JumbOmega Speakers
Tweak: John Harrison has promised me 2 JBL 2226 for Hemp cone retrofit. Imagine a design incorporating those, with the HempTones?
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Vinnie,
I'd bet a NoBox style with a hemp 15" and an active EQ like the Behringer would be pretty sweet. Vertical bi-amping with a couple of Clari Ts would be logical. You'd get back your 96dB efficiency, too,vs the 90dB for the NoBox. Very simple and cheap to manufacture - you could even ship it in two boxes with the "enclosure" flat packed in one of them.
Russell
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The B200 I have found to be surprisingly easy to integrate with bass augmentation. People have been known to shy away from a driver with Q=.7, but it makes it a very versatile driver for various loads unavailable to lower Q drivers. With the Q=.45 of the HempTone, really, any load is now in Louis' crosshairs.
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Hi Dan,
Now that sounds like a plan and I'm all over that.
I've got everything here to make Hempmonsters. I've got a rack of 38mm mdf and 13-ply birch. Big box jumbomega with happy hemps. Sounds kick ass to me. Vinnie amp powered big boxes on the road would be a lot of fun.
Let me know about the JBL hemp retrofit. This would be a natural fit with the 8" hemps or B200s
For now I may try out 2 of the EV 18" subs with B200s. Teac on the bass and Clari t/Lotus on the full rangers
Talk to you soon,
Louis
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Sorry, my last post was meant to be addressed to Louis O, not Vinnie, and I was referring to the B200s with the hemp 15".
Russell
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Hi Dan,
The B200s are very versatile because of this. I can easily take the floorstander prototype Hemp cabinet and make a sealed box speaker. It's great for OBs. I could have had any Q I wanted for the hemps and the .45 works best for me for this particular driver. Sealed, vented it all works.
Talk to you soon,
Louis
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Hi Russell,
No worries at all.
Your idea is very good and would have the right synergy. Shipping the OB is pretty easy and a box with an open side to mate up with the OB would complete the design. The bottom box can be attached with screws once I predrilled with the Kreg jig and act as the support for the OB.
Thanks again,
Louis
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Hi Louis:
I have met you in the NYC Audio Rave in CT, at Hogg's. The idea of making an OB with the B200s as well as a companion sealed sub box to augument the bass is more than intriguing! The box cosmetics would need not to be too great if you hide it behind the OB itself. What is intriguing about this possible design is the hope of getting some tangible low frequencies from a fullrange set up.
I have heard several fullrange versions of the Fostex's, sealed or hornloaded and although many of them do extremely well in the HF and the midrange, I was sorely disappointed along with other people at the lack of "heft" in the low end.
Strangely enough, most of the Fostex versions did go down to around low 40s and even to mid 30s, but could not compete with BR 2 way minimonitors that were rated to around 50hz. I do not know why of this discrepancy in perceived heft or low end.
The only FR single driver that was able to quench my thirst to LF was a pair of F200As in a rather large, almost 100lbs cabinets that were made by Bob Brines called FTA-2000s.
The OB with the augumented BR low frequency box has great, I mean great potential, if it is able to produce heft in the lows.
PS: Doesn't this design sound very similar to the Dick Olsher speaker, as well as that German outfit that sells a similar set for around 2.5K?
Great potential here....as long as the price is not prohibitive. Care nary around looks, more about the sound.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Many thanks fort your post and it was great meeting you at Jim’s.
The whole idea of an Ob with the B200 and a sealed box for bass would be a great way to go. Looks like it would be very similar to the Soundlabs in looks. The box would support the baffle as well. There are a variety of ways to build it.
Fostex speakers can go down pretty well, but the heft you talk about has a lot to do with the drivers throw and also how you place them in the room. The F200a is a driver that can produce more bass at the expense of SPL and has more throw than most other Fostex drivers.
The Hemp and the B200 are rare in the fact that they do go low with authority. It’s really surprising. The bass is one thing, but overall they are amazing in what they can do.
The speaker by Dick Olsher and Bastanis is similar in concept. Adding the B200 on top instead of Lowther is a major plus.
Thanks again,
Louis