[neobop]

     Most of us, I think, would be interested in others' experiences in retipping a MC or substituting a different stylus on one with a replaceable stylus.  Is upgrading to an exotic cantilever/stylus always an improvement?  What happens on a specific cart when cantilever material or diamond shape is changed?

Opinions and experiences encouraged.

     The Genesis 1000 pictured at left, has a new OCLC (micro type) tip put on by Soundsmith to replace the original microridge.  This was glued onto the existing boron tube cantilever. Results were extremely good, the cart sounds much the same as when new. There seems to be a little excess glue compared to the original, but I can't hear any detrimental affects.  Tip mass is measured in milligrams and when I looked at the repair I expected to hear slower response, but it's still fast and clean.

What happened with your cart(s)?
neo

[Jeff V.]

I Have had 3 cartridges retipped by SoundSmith.  2 Denon DL-103R, & a Lyra (Forget the model).  In all three cases I felt all were improved.  For the most part they kept their "house sound" but usually were more detailed from top to bottom.  In most cases, if you choose either of the top two cantilevers, the replacement is higher quality than the original cantilever.  To be clear, the cartridges I had repaired  would not be considered replaceable stylus types as you mention in your post. YMMV.  I hope this helps.

Jeff

[MaxCast]

Why are cartridges retipped?  Wear, upgrade or other?

[roscoeiii]

I think in this thread we need to keep clear the difference between a retip and a rebuild. Rebuilds usually refer to the replacement of a cantilever (and maybe more). Retipping is just applying a new stylus on the end of the existing cantilever. Often SoundSmith's work that replaces a cantilever is inaccurately referred to as a retip. SoundSmith offers both services. Even his most expensive retips are usually more expensive than his retips.

Retipping is usually done for wear. Rebuilds can be a repair (in the case of a broken cantilvever) or an upgrade (from aluminum to ruby cantilever for example).

[neobop]

I Have had 3 cartridges retipped by SoundSmith.  2 Denon DL-103R, & a Lyra (Forget the model).  In all three cases I felt all were improved.  For the most part they kept their "house sound" but usually were more detailed from top to bottom.  In most cases, if you choose either of the top two cantilevers, the replacement is higher quality than the original cantilever.  To be clear, the cartridges I had repaired  would not be considered replaceable stylus types as you mention in your post. YMMV.  I hope this helps.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,
From your description, I assume the  2 - 103R were changed from aluminum to a ruby cantilever.  Soundsmith also offers a tapered aluminum w/nude elliptical (level 1).  The 103D original tip is described as special elliptical, and might be similar to the Soundsmith line contact.  Most user reports about changing this cantilever to ruby, and the 103 as well, tell of increased detail, especially on a 103 which has a spherical tip.   Another implication with a more rigid cantilever is more controlled excursions which could result in a leaner sound.  This aspect isn't always appreciated, especially by those who put a high value on "musicality" which is a big part of 103 appeal.  Most 103(R) reports that I've read, were similar to Jeff's, "For the most part they kept their "house sound"

AFAIK, most Lyra have a boron cantilever and microridge.  Any further details about this one? 
neo

[neobop]

Why are cartridges retipped?  Wear, upgrade or other?

It could be either.  Usually with MCs it's because the tip is worn out or the cantilever is broken.  Sometimes a cart can be upgraded with a different cantilever and/or tip. 

Roscoeiii is right of course.  Technically a retip is replacing just the diamond.  With Soundsmith that service costs $450 because the work is more exacting.  His level 2 is ruby cantilever/line contact - $250.  Level 3 is ruby/Optimum contact LC - $350.  Level 1, mentioned earlier is alum/elliptical - $150.   
neo

[roscoeiii]

I should also mention that there is a durability issue to consider as well. I have twice had ruby cantilevers break, once due to my own butterfingers and once due to me stupidly not removing my cart from the turntable when a roommate was throwing a party.

So I just swapped for a Dyna cart with a broken cantilever that originally had a ruby cantilever, and my plan for this cart would be to go with the aluminum cantilever for the sake of durability. That cart would be my back-up/party cart.

Or is this a silly idea that I should be talked out of?

Anyone here compared the Soundsmith aluminum vs ruby cantilever rebuilds?

 

[neobop]

So far we only talked about Soundsmith, but there's a relatively new, at least new to me, retip/rebuild service in Washington state.  Reports I've read indicate a high quality job and good user satisfaction. 

http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/

neo

[SteveRB]

How does a re-build affect the compliance of a cart...? Can a new cantilever on a Denon 103 make it more accommodating to lighter tone arms?

[roscoeiii]

So far we only talked about Soundsmith, but there's a relatively new, at least new to me, retip/rebuild service in Washington state.  Reports I've read indicate a high quality job and good user satisfaction. 

http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/

neo

Where have you seen these good reports? I am intrigued, but with something as delicate as a cart, I am extra wary about going with a less well-known entity. Even though the wait is likely much shorter.

[roscoeiii]

How does a re-build affect the compliance of a cart...? Can a new cantilever on a Denon 103 make it more accommodating to lighter tone arms?

Great question SteveRB.

I have usually heard it said that it is adding mass to the Denon 103s is what will help it better match with lighter tonearms (metal bodies such as the Zu Denons have, or ones that can be purchased and carefully installed yourself).

[Ericus Rex]

Why are cartridges retipped?  Wear, upgrade or other?

In my case, it was to save lots of dough.  I bought a used ZYX Fuji that was missing it's diamond (boron cantilever was intact) for super cheap and had Soundsmith retip it.  For about $700 total, I got a $2,400 catridge with new diamond.

I did this with another fine cartridge, a Benz Ruby, but in that case, there was an issue with the coil itself.  So I sent that one to Benz and had a full rebuild done for about $900.  I paid around $1,300 total for that one (currently around $3k new methinks).

While I'm very happy with the work done by Soundsmith on the ZYX the bad thing is that I have no comparison of current diamond with original.  I'm willing to accept that blissful ignorance given how little I ended up paying for it.

[neobop]

I should also mention that there is a durability issue to consider as well. I have twice had ruby cantilevers break, once due to my own butterfingers and once due to me stupidly not removing my cart from the turntable when a roommate was throwing a party.

So I just swapped for a Dyna cart with a broken cantilever that originally had a ruby cantilever, and my plan for this cart would be to go with the aluminum cantilever for the sake of durability. That cart would be my back-up/party cart.

Or is this a silly idea that I should be talked out of?

Anyone here compared the Soundsmith aluminum vs ruby cantilever rebuilds?

All the exotic cantilevers are more brittle and delicate than aluminum.   Boron breaks rather easily and beryllium is slightly heavier than boron but is even more brittle.  Durability definitely isn't a selling point of exotics.  Ruby and sapphire are heavier and more durable, except when used as cantilevers.  A thin piece of ruby is normally translucent, you can see through it to some extent.  Soundsmith ruby cantilevers are so thin they're practically transparent. 

I think it would probably be a bad idea, sound-wise, to take something like a 23R or another cart with a longer cantilever, and put aluminum on there.  If it originally had ruby, it was voiced with that, and even though the 23R (if that's what is is) cantilever is only a couple of mm long, it could downgrade the potential.  I just think it might be a waste of an excellent cart, or not as good.  I'm not talking from experience here, I've never substituted alum for ruby.  Usually the consideration is the other way around; is it a good idea to substitute an exotic cantilever for aluminum.  I'd sooner buy a decent MM with an alum cantilever to use for parties.  I don't know how practical that is either, if the arm has a removable headshell etc, and if it was used only for parties, it would probably sound pretty bad until long after the party was over.   How about making the table off-limits for the party and playing Cd's?  They're good for that.
neo

[neobop]

How does a re-build affect the compliance of a cart...? Can a new cantilever on a Denon 103 make it more accommodating to lighter tone arms?

Normally a new cantilever can be made more or less compliant.  It might depend on the design, whether there's a suspension wire, the damping etc.

Call the retip/rebuild service and ask.  I really don't know the limitations in modifying a 103.  I had a 103d, but that came from the factory as a hi cu version.  In this case I'd recommend Soundsmith.  Peter is a Denon dealer and does extensive mods. 
neo

[roscoeiii]

Thanks neo.

Good food for thought.

Yep the Dyna is a 23R. Good guess.

[neobop]

Where have you seen these good reports? I am intrigued, but with something as delicate as a cart, I am extra wary about going with a less well-known entity. Even though the wait is likely much shorter.

I first heard about them from a poster, Timeltel, on Audiogon forum on the MM/MC thread, the one that's nearly 200 pages.  His report was positive.  They have an ad on US Audiomart.  That's where I got the link.  I haven't used the service, but I'm interested.  I think they have boron cantilevers, possible beryllium, and IMO ruby might not be the best choice in all cases. 

There's also a guy in Germany, Axel, who is well liked and has more choices.
http://www.schallplattennadeln.de/kontakt/
He speaks English so you can call.

VDH also has retip/rebuild service.  In the US you have to go through a dealer.  If no local dealer, a distributor.
neo

[BobRex]

Thanks neo.

Good food for thought.

Yep the Dyna is a 23R. Good guess.

No guess was necessary.  The 23R was the only Dynavector that ever had a ruby cantilever.  The R stood for Ruby.  Had you said the cartridege had a diamond cantilever, it would have had to be a 17D.

[neobop]

I just mentioned that ruby might not always be the best choice.   Check this out:





That's a Soundsmith level 2 stylus/cantilever.   The DL-304 has good detail and a natural sound.  It comes stock with a tapered cantilever and special elliptical.  It doesn't have the bottom end of the DL-S1, but sounds pretty good.  With the ruby/LC, resolution was unreal.  I don't think I've heard more detail in any cartridge.  The problem was, it was relentless.  SRA had to be perfect or it would would be unlistenable.  It also seemed like record imperfections were also worse.  In this case maybe it would have been better to stick with aluminum.
neo

[neobop]

No guess was necessary.  The 23R was the only Dynavector that ever had a ruby cantilever.  The R stood for Ruby.  Had you said the cartridege had a diamond cantilever, it would have had to be a 17D.

Actually, there was a Karat Ruby DV100R.  The 23R was the logical guess though.
neo

[neobop]

We left off with an example of a stylus/cantilever substitution that didn't work out IMO, but that's a judgement call and could have been evaluated differently.  I read a similar description on Agon about a different cart w/ruby upgrade and hyper-detail, and the person loved it. To be honest, I would have kept the 304 and used it with on-the-fly VTA, if it was a better match with my AHT phonopreamp. The 2 top Denon carts have very low output and relatively high inductance/resistance. This inductance interacts with cable/preamp load capacitance and can cause high frequency overload - oscillation or intermodulation distortion in some preamps with extended bandwidth. This is more common than you might think. I read another similar description of the DL-S1 in an evaluation, and a prominent poster on Asylum loads his DL-S1 at 30 ohms, the impedance of the cart. That results in effectively reducing the already extremely low output, in half.

In all fairness to Soundsmith, he does really nice work, is extremely knowledgeable and completely honest. I had a couple of long conversations with him and he'll go to great lengths to make sure you understand the considerations and are happy with the results.

I'm sure that many more people have good results in upgrading to an exotic stylus/cantilever, than those that have bad results. I've reached the conclusion that this depends on the specific cart and the specific change. Not all carts are created equal.  It's your examples of retip/rebuild experiences that will help all of us.
neo