AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: Folsom on 19 Mar 2018, 03:13 am
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Incase you don't watch M&S like me, I really enjoyed this picture.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/--utl0hbvsus/Wq681qr3fPI/AAAAAAACo7k/XcUISwl8s1IyWmE5uPoX2FAogsJio1gBQCLcBGAs/s1600/46C6CEC1-E0FB-43C0-8CC9-BD2A4955F09D.jpeg)
Wow.
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Looks familiar....Apollos?
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Yes. (http://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/03/daedalus-audio-apollo-11-speakers.html#more)
You don't see many x-overs from anyone willing to use so many paralleled caps.
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It's kind of like speaker porn, but secret speaker porn.
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Yes. (http://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/03/daedalus-audio-apollo-11-speakers.html#more)
You don't see many x-overs from anyone willing to use so many paralleled caps.
What's the purpose of this cap configuration with all those caps in parallel?
This looks completely different than my 3-way Super Vs or any crossover I've ever seen before.
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Lower ESR, a lot lower with that many. Plus they can only make film caps so big before they'd be like the size of a basketball... so you may have to use several.
Only Lou could tell us how audibly different they are compared to fewer, but I'm sure they are different.
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:o Thanks for the pic Folsom. :thumb:
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Lower ESR, a lot lower with that many. Plus they can only make film caps so big before they'd be like the size of a basketball... so you may have to use several.
Only Lou could tell us how audibly different they are compared to fewer, but I'm sure they are different.
Spot on Folsom!
few do it this way because of the extreme expense and size but taking this approach provides a transparent crossover so that you can get the openness and transparency of a single driver system with the linearity and full bandwidth of a three way system.
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Apollo-11 Eye Candy here is another picture of the XO's
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177710) :thumb:
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This is epic! Another reason Daedalus speakers sound so coherent.
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Someone just emailed me this question:
"I found attached picture of Apollo crossover. Usually in hi-end gear manufacturers are trying to use as less components as possible. Regular crossover has 5-7 components.
The Apollo's crossover has 50-60 components and huge amount of capacitors.
Do you think it improves the sound?
Crossovers of Poseidon and Ulysses looks much smaller (considering the cover)."
An in depth reply would take a book but here is what I said :
this is a pretty involved subject but the short line is that in a multi driver system to do it right you need a very sophisticated crossover. Two way systems try to use as simple a crossover as possible, but even those would be improved by using multiple caps of much higher quality. We could make this same crossover a fraction of the size /cost but it would use inferior electrolytic caps etc that you typically find. There are a host of other reasons but this is not the place. bottom line is that single driver systems have no crossover but limited bandwidth and uneven response, two way systems have simple crossovers but again many compromises sonically (especially in larger systems) Three and four way systems require a sophisticated network and most companies use electrolytic caps for the large values and buffer them with film caps to make the sound acceptable. We only use film caps and use them in groups so that they are the most transparent. This is an incredibly expensive path to take and usually you will only find crossovers like these in speakers in the six figure range.
btw the Ulysses and Poseidon crossovers are exactly the same in size as the Apollo11, it is like building a ship in a bottle to install them.
I hope this helps to clarify?
thanks,
lou
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Someone just emailed me this question:
"I found attached picture of Apollo crossover. Usually in hi-end gear manufacturers are trying to use as less components as possible. Regular crossover has 5-7 components.
The Apollo's crossover has 50-60 components and huge amount of capacitors.
Do you think it improves the sound?
Crossovers of Poseidon and Ulysses looks much smaller (considering the cover)."
An in depth reply would take a book but here is what I said :
this is a pretty involved subject but the short line is that in a multi driver system to do it right you need a very sophisticated crossover. Two way systems try to use as simple a crossover as possible, but even those would be improved by using multiple caps of much higher quality. We could make this same crossover a fraction of the size /cost but it would use inferior electrolytic caps etc that you typically find. There are a host of other reasons but this is not the place. bottom line is that single driver systems have no crossover but limited bandwidth and uneven response, two way systems have simple crossovers but again many compromises sonically (especially in larger systems) Three and four way systems require a sophisticated network and most companies use electrolytic caps for the large values and buffer them with film caps to make the sound acceptable. We only use film caps and use them in groups so that they are the most transparent. This is an incredibly expensive path to take and usually you will only find crossovers like these in speakers in the six figure range.
btw the Ulysses and Poseidon crossovers are exactly the same in size as the Apollo11, it is like building a ship in a bottle to install them.
I hope this helps to clarify?
thanks,
lou
Lou,
when I visited the Daedalus Factory , in Ferndale last month I saw the Amount & Quality of work that goes into each one of those speakers ! the high quality of Parts, that are used by you, and the amount of time you spend voicing these units
thank you for sharing with us.
Good luck at Axpona 2018 < if I am in Chicago during those days I may stop by
Asghar
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btw the Ulysses and Poseidon crossovers are exactly the same in size as the Apollo11, it is like building a ship in a bottle to install them.
thanks,
lou
Have you ever considered an external crossover box?
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Have you ever considered an external crossover box?
That's the first thing I thought when I saw that pic.
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You could have 60 capacitors in a simple crossover. Almost every single capacitor used in this is in parrallel with others. You could effectively consider every pile of capacitors to be 1 capacitor. At that point the crossover would fit in your hands if the single capacitors where not large (but they would be). That crossover may be as electrically simple as this one. (https://system.na3.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=866&c=650256&h=2a9adebc84cc49168077) Its possible to use a thousand capacitors in a single order crossover, if you needed 1uf but only used 0.001uf caps in parrallel.
My point being the person that emailed doesnt know how complicated or not these really are, and is making assumptions that come from being a victim of marketing. Audiophiles are too use to assuming simple is better solely because of exposure to bad designs that were compicated, and exposure to a few simple but good designs. If audiophiles really held up marketing rules they wouldnt use crossovers because "coils and capacitors are bad".
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Have you ever considered an external crossover box?
You're not the first to ask that question, and what you see here IS my response. For all intent and purpose it is an external box but without the compromise of a very complicated umbilical that is likely to impact quality.
thanks,
lou