[virtue]

Hey guys,

I wanted to take a moment to introduce Rick Kernen @ Vanatoo.

They have a great little powered speaker that sounds wonderful, especially for the size.

http://www.vanatoo.com/

I'll let Rick post pictures and tell you more.

Seth

[rkernen]

Thanks Seth.  Vanatoo introduced our first powered speaker product, the Transparent One, about a year ago.  The things that sets the Transparent One apart from other powered speakers is that in addition to the analog inputs we have three digital inputs; optical, coax, and USB all capable of receiving 96K/24 bit files.  In addition these bookshelf speakers will play down to a true 48 Hz which is lower than any other speaker their size on the market today.  We are able to accomplish this using our ClearBass Technology which consists of a patented XBL woofer, passive radiator, and an on-board DSP.  I'll post more if there is interest but you can check us out at www.vanatoo.com.

[JohnR]

Hi Rick, interesting and flexible looking little speaker! You've thought of everything. The auto subwoofer out is a very neat idea.

[virtue]

Rick,

Can you encourage your customers to post some pictures of your speaker in situ and also some listening impressions?

We live in a world of enormous wine glasses so maybe it's not clear to folks just how tiny these are

Seth

[wisnon]

How is the bass tech here different from what PeachTree uses in their DeepBlue Bluetooth speaker?
That 6.5inch woofer is made to play down to a true 40hz, they claim.

[JLM]

Very interested in a powered/active speaker for 2nd system use.  I see powered/active speakers as the savior of audio (to bring sound reproduction with a high degree of fidelity back into the mainstream).  The form factor (minimize space, complexity, number of boxes) and design (flexibility for connections and hopefully how it performs in various setups) can provide a viable avenue for good sound to find a place in modern lifes (with smaller budgets and fewer/smaller living spaces).

I like the website, very informative without special effects that would slow it down or make it 'glitchy'.  Cliche and now so old school, but you could image them next to a CD to demonstrate scale (I found an image with a iPhone, but it was on it's side).

The Vanatoo One does hit lots of my buttons.  I'm a firm believer in bass being foundational and value listenability (non-fatiguing sound) to razor sharp highs.  I do wish it was fully active (one channel of amplification per driver with low level crossover) but at this price...

Does the DSP increase how low the frequency response goes with volume (lower F3 at lower spls)?  My 2nd system is 99% for background listening but the space is very large (total connected space in our open 1st floor with dining, kitchen, mud, entry, and upstairs loft off the living room with high ceilings is about 10,000 cu. ft.).  BTW I've seen similarly priced active/DSP speakers that vendor information states that they do this 'trick' down to 30 Hz. So anyway, I'm looking for speakers that can 'fill' this large space.

Again, very promising product.  Thanks Seth for the introduction to AC.

[wisnon]

Hi JLM,

I have been speaking about these speakers since January! See here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111225.msg1183873#msg1183873

Ever since they got a great review at Mojos. The only comparative speaker that seems to be in tits class/price range is Peachtree's deep blue and that is a single box arrangement.

Both seem to be bass champs for the size/price.

[rkernen]

Rick,

Can you encourage your customers to post some pictures of your speaker in situ and also some listening impressions?

We live in a world of enormous wine glasses so maybe it's not clear to folks just how tiny these are

Seth

The speakers measure only 10”h x 6.5 “w x 8.1” d.  They weigh about 12 lbs each.  We made every effort to keep the enclosures as small as possible while still providing great bass.

Here are a couple of pictures from customers that were posted on reddit.com…






There are also a number of reviews from customers on Amazon…
http://www.amazon.com/Vanatoo-Transparent-Powered-Speakers-Black/product-reviews/B0080K2KUK/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
http://www.amazon.com/Vanatoo-Transparent-One-Powered-Speakers/product-reviews/B00819R1MC/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

As well as reviews from a number of online reviewers which you can link to via our website…
http://www.vanatoo.com/reviews/
and more reviews are on the way.

-Rick

[v2guy2]

I’m Gary Gesellchen, the other main Vanatoo guy besides Rick.  I think I can give at least partial answers to some of the questions that have been asked already.  But first, let me say I’m very impressed by the level of discussion on AudioCircle.  The thoughtful comments and informed views are a welcome relief!

I can only partially answer wisnon’s question as to how we differ in the bass department from the Peachtree Deepblue.  The Deepblue has received a lot of positive press and apparently sounds very good.  It is supposed to have unexpected bass for its size and cost.  I have unfortunately not yet heard one, or had the chance to really “peak under the hood!”  I guess I better go listen…..

What I can tell from the Peachtree literature is that the system sure seems to use a sealed cabinet with their 6.5 inch woofer.  Sealed boxes require a lot of woofer excursion to produce low frequencies and/or high SPL’s.  This is the fundamental reason you see so many small ported boxes; they reduce the required woofer excursion.  This is the main reason the Vanatoo Transparent One uses a passive radiator.  It allows us to get the tuning necessary to reproduce realistic and musical bass (even a port can’t do it!), while keeping the woofer requirements within the realm of doable.  A woofer that can handle the large excursions  of a sealed box while reproducing 40Hz and maintaining good “linearity” over its stroke is kind of expensive and is not generally found in $399 products.  Maybe Peachtree is different?  I can’t say……  I can say that the Transparent One uses precisely controlled DSP equalization to match the woofer, passive radiator, and box such that each is contributing optimally to the mix of low frequency extension and  SPL generation.  I’m sure Peachtree does something similar, minus the passive radiator for controlling the woofer cone excursion.

Elsewhere in Peachtree’s literature they mention “Volume Equalization”, which sure sounds a lot like a loudness control (maybe Yamaha’s version?).  They also mention that they achieve high SPL’s by using digital compression in the DSP.  There is more than one way to do this job, but the digital compressors that Vanatoo has tested all left fairly significant sound artifacts.  We choose not to go this route (the option is built-in to our amp, so we could have done it for free!).  Again, Peachtree may have found a better path.  None of the design choices I can tell Peachtree pursued are in any way bad choices, and I’m pretty sure the unit has earned the praise it has been receiving.  Those guys know their stuff.  We did choose a little different path with the Transparent One, and we are very happy with the outcome of our choices! 

JLM asked a couple of good questions.  I think I can answer them 100%. The amplifier we use supports 4 channels, and the earlier prototypes of the Transparent One were bi-amped with digital DSP based crossovers!  The funny thing is that we did not go away from this design based on cost; the Transparent One is actually more expensive to build with a passive crossover (well, at least with a crossover that meets our standards!).  The two reasons we abandoned bi-amping was the requirement that it placed on the user to properly wire the woofer and tweeter on the passive unit (we could have avoided this by duplicating electronics and plugging both in, but that is more expensive)!, and it allowed the addition of a subwoofer out.  This might sound odd to AudioCircle members, but there are a lot of people out there for whom hooking-up a binding post is a challenge.  By abandoning the bi-amping, we were able to use the extra channels for the subwoofer out, which our users indicated was a more meaningful feature than the ability to claim bi-amping.  Bi-amping is great, and you’ll probably see it from us in the future.  But a good passive crossover still works really well.

JLM also asked if our DSP changes with both frequency and loudness level, extending the f3 at low volumes.  This is a more sophisticated version of the compression mentioned above, and can be very effective.  We do not use this on the Transparent One, opting instead to live with its natural limits.

I hope this is informative.  I need to get out to see a Deepblue!

  Gary

[JLM]

Thanks for the input Gary, the positive comments, and of course welcome to AC!

Other (more expensive) active designs (bi-amped as the term you used) get around the separate woofer/tweeter hookups with double cables and special connectors, but that then involves customizing the length to the application, having more cable than needed, or worse yet not having long enough cable.  But the concept is neither difficult or particularly expensive (especially compared to your more expensive passive crossover).  I have high-end single driver speakers in my main rig (active by default), have heard very impressive 2-way active designs, and so really believe in active designs.

Too bad you haven't included bass boost at lower spls.  That is exactly what I need in my 2nd system application (big room, low spls) to help with WAF and avoid adding a sub (I'm also a believer in bass being foundational to true audiophile sound reproduction).

The DeepBlue has impressive specifications/reviews, but I'm not interested one box designs as the two cabinet solution allows for placement on either side of a computer/TV screen.


wisnon,

Saw your post when it went up (I'd already suggested an active 2-way in that thread).  And I've been pushing audiophiles to "wake up" to the numerous advantages of active (even powered to a lesser extent IMO) design, but most still want to extend the 'hunt' by trying to match/swap amps to speakers and have more 'trophies' to show off.  In shopping for active/powered speakers care must be used if looking into studio monitors (nearly all are designed primarily to reveal the warts, not to be entertaining) and in my experience end up being very boring/unimpressive. 

But the value of active/powered speakers that I see is to get audio out of the closet (audio man cave) and with an open mind take on the lifestyle issue (where frankly most audiophiles struggle to find a happy balance between good sound and family values).  Amphion (passive designs only) does a great job of this (they've designed compact speakers designed to sound good in studio, desktop, or almost anywhere in the home).

[wisnon]

Thanks Gary. Very good explanation.

Deepblue is really for a slightly different market...more the Sonos type crowd.

Vanatoo is more for the 2nd system, computer setup.

JLM, the high end audio market leader in Switzerland is ROWEN and they have several lines of Active speakers (bi, tri and quad active systems with SS Preamps driving them).They sound excellent, especially with the LMT tweeter. Not cheap though...

[JLM]

Thanks for the heads up wisnon.  Several high-end active options exist that are intended for home use.  Just from Great Britain alone I can think of Meridian, Naim, Linn, PMC, and ATC on the expensive end of the scale.  But expensive for the sake of itself (like 1 inch thick milled faceplates) has never impressed me, just a never ending rationalization for spending money and deluding yourself into thinking each step will somehow be better.  Plus expensive implies complexity, ego trips, and frankly should be easy to improve upon the sound as you spend more.


My excitement over powered/active speakers is based on the huge sonic advantages, enhanced value, and improved family acceptance factors:

-Improved dynamics
-Flat frequency response
-Extended bass response
-More sophisticated crossover (active)
-Built-in amps matched by the speaker developer to the drivers
-Possible built-in DAC, DSP, pre-amp functions
-Short speaker cable runs
-Lower overall cost
-Lends to use with computer/hand held based sources/control
-Smaller form for given bass response
-Fewer cabinets
-Fewer wires/switches

Disadvantages mainly revolve around audiophile idiosyncrasies:

-Loss of the 'hunt' (anthropologic need)
-Can't break down the system into separate components for customization/updating
-Some technologies (like tubes) don't lend themselves to the concept
-Harder to showcase
-Harder to DIY
-Many installations require access to two separate wall receptacles or using a power cord/strip

For audiophiles, something like the AVi 9RSS ($2200/pair) contains woofer/tweeter (ScanSpeak Revelator), pre-amp with analog/digital inputs, 75/250 watt power amps, 24/192 DAC, removable grill, and remote; or soon to be introduced Quad 9AS ($1300/pair scaled down a bit but similarly equipped) both seem/look as dull as dishwater but they each represent a complete, fully audiophile competent system intended for home use.  Seems to me that the 'old guard' feel threatened by new approaches (and rightly so if they aren't able to adapt).  65 million years ago the biggest, most successful creatures couldn't adapt to change either.  Of course overall sales of audio would drop (less cost, less 'need' to fiddle/tweak/swap), but that's the lesson (painful for some, advantageous for others) that history teaches regarding change.

[v2guy2]

JLM,

We DO have bass boost built into the system.  It is more-or-less a "6th order" design per the original papers by Thiele and Small.  The combination of the specifically tailored bass boost and the passive radiator (and a very good woofer!) are what allow us to play flat down to 49Hz in the small box.  This is the real anechoic -3dB point, not including any room gain effects, etc.

We don't have bass boost that varies with both frequency AND drive level.  This is used in some designs, but I think it is more often used as dynamic compression to keep the driver from hitting bottom on loud passages, rather than as a way of giving quiet listening more bass.  The combination of flat response to start with plus bass and treble controls results in you being able to tailor the sound to your room position and personal liking, which can include the level at which you normally listen!

  Gary Gesellchen

[JLM]

Gary,

Thanks again for your input.  Yes, I found the steep roll-off of bass response on your web page.

I do find your honest/high value approach to be most refreshing.   

It's always a hoot to be able to share with the product creators.