AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Headphone Mania => Topic started by: FullRangeMan on 3 Mar 2016, 02:43 pm

Title: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 3 Mar 2016, 02:43 pm
As I had predicted recently in another topic the outrageous price of the new Orpheus will greater inflate the price of the headphone marker as well as speakers market.

HifiMan was a fast reaction and afew days ago I received a newsletter informing his new future release a cost-no-objet phones named Shangri-La.

Not that Iam interested, but what should be the Price?
As the HE1000 price is $3000 the Shangri-la may cost $5K I suspect. Much more price-value than the Orpheus.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: hibuckhobby on 3 Mar 2016, 03:32 pm
IMO the two have very little to do with one another.  HifiMan has been working on the electrostat
for 5 years.  I do agree however, that "cost no object" efforts have very little to do with price/performance
ratio.
Hibuck...
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 3 Mar 2016, 10:04 pm
Really, the headphone market is just playing catchup on the speaker world. How many people actually buy the 5-6 digit toys? With very few exceptions, those serve more as statement pieces to inflate the company ego/perception.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 4 Mar 2016, 12:59 am
They're trying to see what the market will bear. That's all. Aside from reinforcing the image of audiophiles as kooks who will pay ridiculous amounts of money to listen to some music, no real harm done.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 4 Mar 2016, 05:31 am
I used to have monoblocks for my headphones. I hopped the train to Kooksville a long time ago  :lol:
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 5 Mar 2016, 01:56 am
We've all visited there at the very least
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 5 Mar 2016, 02:05 am
As I had predicted recently in another topic the outrageous price of the new Orpheus will greater inflate the price of the headphone marker as well as speakers market.

HifiMan was a fast reaction and afew days ago I received a newsletter informing his new future release a cost-no-objet phones named Shangri-La.

Not that Iam interested, but what should be the Price?
As the HE1000 price is $3000 the Shangri-la may cost $5K I suspect. Much more price-value than the Orpheus.

Sennheiser went out of their way to make the Orpheus as expensive as it could. It went beyond "price no object"- to price IS the object, I mean, motorized tubes and controls that emerge from the chassis at power-on... Who the f*** needs that. I'm into "form follows function". If anything, silly-ass sh** like that reduces the reliability (somewhere inside that thing, there are lots of flexing wires, or more likely, ribbon cables)  that lead to pots and tube sockets. Uhh, no thanks. How about some teardown pics, Sennheiser?  Unless I win the lottery, then all bets are off  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 5 Mar 2016, 01:26 pm
How about some teardown pics, Sennheiser? 
I think this amp use PCB not hard wire.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 5 Mar 2016, 04:02 pm
In case you haven't read the details of this system, the tubes and the controls are recessed into the chassis when the system is turned off and extend from the chassis, driven by motors, as the system is turned on. Since both the tubes and the controls are in the signal path, there have to be moving connections in the signal path somewhere, even if they are connected to some kind of mechanical support structure rather than directly to tube sockets and/or control solder pins. Ribbon cables, such are are used in, say, printers,would seem to be the logical way to accomplish this. Not having seen the insides, I'm only speculating as to the implementation. This is complexity for appearance's sake rather than of any engineering reason is my point. I'm not against Senn building an expensive system, but I have never had a very high regard for conspicuous consumption that serves no real purpose.

There is a depiction of this  on this page (http://www.sennheiser-reshapingexcellence.com/en). The marketing 'angle' is kind of comical if you ask me (they refer to the amp/storage unit as the "Monument".)

If you want good, rationally priced headphones, get them now, because the middle ground is receding and only cheap crap and grossly overpriced 'bling' (the Orpheus being the prime example) seem to be moving forward.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 5 Mar 2016, 05:02 pm
In case you haven't read the details of this system, the tubes and the controls are recessed into the chassis when the system is turned off and extend from the chassis, driven by motors, as the system is turned on. Since both the tubes and the controls are in the signal path, there have to be moving connections in the signal path somewhere, even if they are connected to some kind of mechanical support structure rather than directly to tube sockets and/or control solder pins. Ribbon cables, such are are used in, say, printers,would seem to be the logical way to accomplish this. Not having seen the insides, I'm only speculating as to the implementation. This is complexity for appearance's sake rather than of any engineering reason is my point. I'm not against Senn building an expensive system, but I have never had a very high regard for conspicuous consumption that serves no real purpose.

There is a depiction of this  on this page (http://www.sennheiser-reshapingexcellence.com/en). The marketing 'angle' is kind of comical if you ask me (they refer to the amp/storage unit as the "Monument".)

If you want good, rationally priced headphones, get them now, because the middle ground is receding and only cheap crap and grossly overpriced 'bling' (the Orpheus being the prime example) seem to be moving forward.
Seems as a good german company Sennheiser want red carpet and flags to self-affirmation, hence the new Orpheus.

I receive the factory newletter so I have see all about Orpheus.
I think the only safe way to implement these moving parts are w/PCB, Sennheiser would not be so stupid to use moving wiring in all of those valves sockets;
Just my 2 cents speculation.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Letitroll98 on 5 Mar 2016, 08:55 pm
I dunno DB, there seems to still be a plethora of mid priced phones and amps out there, new stuff like Audioquest's new Nighthawk is an example.  And great midrange phones are still being produced, Hifiman HE 400I, Grado RS2, Beyerdynamic T90 are but a few that happen to be ones I've purchased recently.  I really think it's the golden age of headphones now.  So many fine products at all prices that it's often hard to choose just one.  I think it's this interest across the board that drives the appearance of these "ultra" hi end phones, not the end of the world as we know it.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 6 Mar 2016, 11:34 pm
If it is the 'end of the world', it aint because of headphones... Not primarily, anyways :lol: Just that right here, I have seen 'phones like the650 and HE560 referred to as 'mid-fi'....That's the attitude sometimes... Really? You can still put together a really good headphone system for under $1K if you choose carefully. Example: Senn HD650/AKG K712/Hifiman 560/Audeze EL8 with O2 or Schiit Magni with ODAC or Schiit Modi.Total cost $750-900 new (less used).

Yes, theres lots of 'mid-range' headphones... Many of them are yesterday's 'high end' models, until mfr's discovered that 'the market will bear' more. When Senn comes out with a 'mid-priced' planar, I'll feel better about the 'mid-ranges'. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want the 'price no object' range to duck up a disproportionate share of the development effort. The law of diminishing returns is very operative in audio.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: neobop on 7 Mar 2016, 11:04 am
Edit: Like, they can make the diaphragms thinner, but there's a limit to thinness with current materials where you can accelerate a given volume of air fast enough to be convincing, and tonally correct.

Dale,
Seems logical, but I don't buy into it.  Nothing exotic about an electrostatic diaphragm.  Beryllium dust is toxic, but it's still used in tweeters - similar size diaphragm, even smaller.  If you're talking about the problems of air volume and miniturization, I don't think that computes either.  The proof is in Stax speed and resolution.  Imaging is a separate issue IMO, and short of electronic recreation the results of angling, boxes, etc. are user specific.

I think you're right about making it smoother.  Audiofools want their reality both convincing, accurate and palatable - no easy task because it requires manipulation.  Manipulation violates the prime directive - mess less, less is more.  This might seem Orwellian, but it's just straightwire and gain, the shortest distance.
Regards,
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: JohnR on 7 Mar 2016, 11:12 am
We want it to sound the way we want, but we want that sound to be created the way that someone told us it was supposed to be created.

I am so glad I am not in the audiophile retail business.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 7 Mar 2016, 01:36 pm
The Orpheus prob is $55K price too hi, a simpler version would cost $20 or $30K, this not affordable at all, even $10 is all above the Audezes and HiFiMan.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 8 Mar 2016, 03:06 pm
Just received a HifiMan newletter informing a sale:
HE500 $349 Factory Refurbished
HE400 $149 Factory Refurbished
HE300 $99   Factory Refurbished
HE400i $299 Open Box Return
HE560 $899 New & other models
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: milford3 on 8 Mar 2016, 04:17 pm
Just received a HifiMan newletter informing a sale:
HE500 $349 Factory Refurbished
HE400 $149 Factory Refurbished
HE300 $99   Factory Refurbished
HE400i $299 Open Box Return
HE560 $899 New & other models


HE400 for $149 Factory refurbished is a steal.

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: steve in jersey on 8 Mar 2016, 07:34 pm
If they can come up with real breakthroughs instead of just making the $10000 or $20000 headphone smoother, more extended, clearer etc. -- so when you put it on and listen you hear a distinctly better soundstage and image (without artificial DSPs), because most or all of the things that ring or resonate have been eliminated - or whatever works, then that might justify the higher price tiers.

Edit: Like, they can make the diaphragms thinner, but there's a limit to thinness with current materials where you can accelerate a given volume of air fast enough to be convincing, and tonally correct.
Yeah Dale, that's the wish of most of us who are continually looking for the ideal headphone that will push all
of the right buttons & whistles for us for whatever type of music it is we choose to listen to. The problem is there isn't any real "standard"that can be used to make all the various genres of music we listen to equally enjoyable on the same "playing field" level. Headphones have to work slightly better for some types of music than others, simply due to the fact that recording techniques & the infinite variety of musical instrumentation can be vastly different from genre to genre !

Once someone starts talking about how this or that hp really excells at reproducing 1 type of music better than
others  the maker is back to the drawing board to strengthen the sound characteristics that don't enhance other types of music. Whether or not hp makers will admit to it they end up making hps that are "Jacks of all Trades" but "Masters of None" TOTL , Reference (according to the makers) Level headphones, that may or may not have had their sound "dumbed down" at some point of their existence.

I have a "TOTL , Reference level "can", but it's only that for the selectively narrow genres of music I care to listen to. He,he,he it certainly wasn't anywhere near to being this until "I" decided to "dumb down" the design features that kept it from be able to reproduce all the fine nuanced sound my playback system & recordings of choice are consistently giving me. In retrospect , I could probably have gotten to this point a lot easier with a "lesser" headphone with less "necessary surgery" on my part to them .

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 8 Mar 2016, 08:22 pm
Dale do you think the new Orpheus use DSP?
Its a closed box.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: steve in jersey on 8 Mar 2016, 10:02 pm
If you go to the Senn Orpheus info page they talk about the headphone amp (that I believe is included with the hps as part of the Orpheus "System" they talk about this electrostatic hp amp using 8 ES9018 DACs in it .

So not only will you be able to listen to Digital PCM input into it ,but DSD as well. Being an Eltrostactic Amp I would imagine you could listen to other ELS headphones through this amp also (Hey, if you're affluent enough to buy an Orpheus, you might already have some Stax lying around also) (Someone should ask Senn if they can get a 30 day free trial on these, He,he,he )
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 8 Mar 2016, 10:08 pm
Wow I have no interest in this hp that did not even know it, it may be a upsampler.
Its really bad news along w/the price.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: charmerci on 8 Mar 2016, 10:44 pm
Just received a HifiMan newletter informing a sale:
HE500 $349 Factory Refurbished
HE400 $149 Factory Refurbished
HE300 $99   Factory Refurbished
HE400i $299 Open Box Return



All out. Too late now.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 8 Mar 2016, 10:54 pm

All out. Too late now.
If interest there is my HE400 for $250 +ship with:
-Original manual and box
-Original Canare 3M cable
-Silver 1.5M cable from HeadDirect
-original leather pads
-velour pads(installed)
-90 hours use
-no blemishes, grade 10/10
-no Paypal fee offer
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 10 Mar 2016, 08:19 am
The flagship headphones have certainly jumped up in pricing by several orders of magnitude. A decade ago the top dogs (not counting Stax) were the Sennheiser HD580/600, Beyerdynamic DT880, and AKG K601 (or was it the 501? I forget). Grado sort of sat on the side in their odd little pocket niche carved out from name recognition, sort of like Bose.

Nowadays, the old school trio are considered mid-fi as new headphones have literally added a zero onto their pricetags. I haven't heard all of the new toys, but I've gone through quite a few of them.

Beyer's offerings have not particularly improved in my opinion from the 880. The tesla drivers certainly seem capable, but they seriously need to put someone in charge of quality control and driver matching or all that tech is wasted.

AKG just keeps rehashing the same design with minor tweaks here and there (we're just gonna pretend the K812 doesn't exist). To their credit though, they're the only company that hasn't gone loony with price hikes. As far as "flagship" status here, I honestly think the K612 is the best of the bunch.

Sennheiser has done well with the HD800 and in my opinion is the only one of the original trio that has produced a worthy "flagship" successor. Innerfidelity has released a very interesting article on the new HD800S that's worth a read.

The planar revolution gained huge momentum within the modding community, but new flagships each year push into ridiculousness. Audeze's LCD-2 is a fine headphone, but the 3 and X/XC do not justify the price bump (I haven't heard the 4, but I have my doubts). Hifiman hit their peak with the HE-6, and the newest 400s and 560 strike a decent trade of resolution for significantly higher sensitivity, but the HE-1000 and HE-X are expensive bling pieces that are a step down in sound quality. The Abyss is... ok I'll admit sonically the Abyss is fantastic. Too bad it fits like a medieval torture device; I'm not paying $4k for that.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 10 Mar 2016, 02:00 pm
I was thinking more or less the same thing. Especially in regard to the Beyer T1- I've heard them and liked them, but the form factor is essentially the same as the other Beyers but it costs five times what you can find the 880's in your example for. Are the Tesla drivers that much more expensive? Or is the pricing because Beyer sees Senn getting it for their flagship (which was a radical redesign and quite expensive to manufacture due to the materials used)?

As I've said before, diminishing returns definitely come into play. Because I have to be careful with my audio dollar, I try to figure out where a particular thing sits on the value curve. It's not just cost- there's some really expensive utter crap out there in all categories, and some low priced gems. Among the latter I would classify the Apple In-Ear headphones which are two way balanced armature designs and waaaay outperform their price point (at least if you replace the stock silicone gel tips with Comply foam tips). They have little to no audiophile "cred" (possibly because their el cheapo earbuds are so bad) but these are a great value, the kind the headphone market can use more of. I'm continually impressed with how well they hold their own vs my more expensive IEMs.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Mar 2016, 02:59 pm
If they do, it certainly wouldn't be an obvious electronic tuned circuit like Bose incorporates into their QC-25 (but does not use in their SoundTrue around-ear model).  Whatever Sennheiser does is probably not even in that tube amp, so whatever they do I have no idea.  Stax has been producing ES headphones for years that are very neutral, and I presume Sennheiser would be using the same kind of technology.
Thanks Dale.
About the new HD800S, is a old technology in a new cloth.
How they manage to sold it is beyond my comprehension.
The current situation is this>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZPj9F0y18
Looks funny but its not.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: steve in jersey on 10 Mar 2016, 04:50 pm
I can't agree that I need 2 or more headphones for the *many* genres of music I listen to.  A headphone that's properly tuned, by manufacture and then by astute user EQ, should play everything at quality ranging from excellent to "pretty good", and if not, the recording was not made to be a high fidelity recording.

You might have missed the point I was getting at , as no one really needs more than 1 headphone to cover everything you listen to !

I was talking more along the lines of why headphone manufacturers are continually trying to make TOTL headphones they insist upon calling "Reference Level" . The implication here is that this level is equally this level for all musical genres the headphones are used for. When I hear the word "Reference" I take it pretty literally .

There are any number of headphones that "cover" all music genres very well. In the process of accomplishing this standard of "very well", some musical genres will be reproduced at an elavated level simply because different music has different requirements to be at the pinnacle of the best they can be reproduced. The laws of physics dictate this has to be the reality of sound reproduction.

I'm just saying take the word "Reference level" with a grain of salt. I have a minuscule interest in about 85% of all available genres of music (& if it's a non Acoustical instrument based genre, my interest is probably in the "Hehehe...Listen to What ?" column. I just think it would be convient to have a totally un compromised , use specific headphone. I think I have interest in "other" headphones simply because of all the redesign work I did to my headphones getting rid of the things that have no reason to be present for my "music of choice"
listening time.

It's not a matter of "Needing" anything . (Unless we're talking about having the headphone sound that I only need  the best possible sound for my specific playback choices; which are not Democratic by any means)

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 10 Mar 2016, 10:04 pm
At least with Sennheiser's HD800, you can tell there was some engineering that went into it. The earcups, pads, even the mesh material are all very specifically designed. The 800S has an interesting doohickey that tamps down a certain resonance peak, and another change that brings up 2nd order harmonic distortion in the bass.

Looking at Beyer... yeah the Tesla driver is (potentially) nice, but everything else is almost a drop-in replacement. Their driver variance and matching is iffy at best, and mismatched drivers/frequency response warps perception of sound far more than people realize. The early DT1350's were a prime example of this as early measurements from differing sites showed significant changes from batch to batch.

As for everybody cranking prices, well this is simply a matter of the headphone world finally catching up to the hifi world. Very very few people buy the ultrabucks gear, but hey there's some prestige to buying a $1k toy from a company that makes $100k statement bling.

Years ago you'd never consider spending a grand on headphones, but nowadays thanks mostly to Beats which has made it fashionably cool for kids to drop $300 on plastic necklaces, the adults need to spend 10x more to make their own statement about being better than the teens.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 11 Mar 2016, 01:44 am
Thanks Dale.
About the new HD800S, is a old technology in a new cloth.
How they manage to sold it is beyond my comprehension.
The current situation is this>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZPj9F0y18
Looks funny but its not.
Read innerfidelity's review. There are apparently some significant differences "under the hood", mentioned briefly above by Armaegis.

Regarding "signature", IMO not every difference can be "EQ'd" out. If you EQ'd an HD800 and an LCD2 (to make just one possible comparison) to measure the same on a FR plot, they'd still sound different. They might sound more "alike", but not "the same." Transient response, driver resonances etc etc etc all come into play.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Mar 2016, 04:29 pm
There is a new HifiMan: Edition S price $250
http://www.hifiman.com/articles/detail/401?preview=true
Its not a round can but rectangular.
(http://wx13.wadax.ne.jp/~e-earphone-jp/cp-bin/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IMG_0390-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Mar 2016, 04:35 pm
Today I receive the second HifiMan newsletter mentioning the new top of the Line Shangri-La, no price info, just a photo and its follow the looking from brother HE1000, w/the wood trim around the can.

In this video at 12:30 there is more info and lots closeup images:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcuCKRxtadM&feature=youtu.be
Its a prototype model, news are not good:
It came along w/his own huge tube amp which use four expensive 300B tubes and unfortunately have a 5 pins non standard balanced cable.
This is result from the Orpheus dementia.
Some Shangri-La and his amp images:
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1538489/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
(http://www.avsforum.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/HIFIMAN-Shangri-La-2-600x400.jpg)
(http://cdn.innerfidelity.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/CES2016_Day3_Photo_Main.jpg?itok=sNmgcBK_)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 18 Mar 2016, 08:30 pm
There is a new HifiMan: Edition S price $250
http://www.hifiman.com/articles/detail/401?preview=true
Its not a round can but rectangular.
(http://wx13.wadax.ne.jp/~e-earphone-jp/cp-bin/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IMG_0390-1.jpg)

That might be the fugliest headphone I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 18 Mar 2016, 08:36 pm
Accidental duplicate; sorry
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 23 Apr 2016, 10:28 pm
Some me too late comers to HP boat are NAD and PSB.
http://nadelectronics.com/products/headphones/

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/headphones/M4U-2-Headphones

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 24 Apr 2016, 05:58 pm
The NAD HP50 is an excellent can, but just doesn't do it for me comfort-wise as it puts a pressure spot right at the top of my head. I would choose the Sennheiser Momentum over it which is *slightly* lesser in sound but for me far more comfortable.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 25 Apr 2016, 12:02 am
My philosophy has always been that if a can isn't comfortable, I don't really care how it sounds.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Guy 13 on 25 Apr 2016, 12:58 am
I've tried eight different makes-models of headphones
and only the Sennheiser HD-600-650
where comfortable to wear for many hours.
Sooooo.... The comfort is the most important.
Even if the HD-800 where better sounding,
I did not found them comfortable at all.

Guy 13
 
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Nordkapp on 25 Apr 2016, 02:35 am
Beyerdynamic fit nicely. Most comfortable I've owned. I won't mention the bad ones. Sennheisers fit well too.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: wje on 25 Apr 2016, 12:21 pm
Just received a HifiMan newletter informing a sale:
HE500 $349 Factory Refurbished
HE400 $149 Factory Refurbished
HE300 $99   Factory Refurbished
HE400i $299 Open Box Return
HE560 $899 New & other models

I ordered the HE-560 cups and headband from Hifiman for $80 (U.S.$) to include international shipping.  I transplanted my HE-500 driver elements into the new cups and have taken advantage of the newer and more comfortable headband.  Others have done the mod with just the headband and the existing HE-500 cups.  Still a great pair of headphones at around $450, including the mods.  One should also order the $10 ear pad rings which are a newer and thinner version for the new 560, 400s, 400i, etc. series.  These rings prevent the ear pads from spinning, which is a hassle if it's the Focus pads.

I'm quite happy with the results of my modified HE-500 headphones.  I don't see myself getting too high into the pricier market for cans at this point in the game because I'm really happy with the sound.  I'd rather spend the money on speakers and other audio gear.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: wje on 25 Apr 2016, 12:23 pm
The NAD HP50 is an excellent can, but just doesn't do it for me comfort-wise as it puts a pressure spot right at the top of my head. I would choose the Sennheiser Momentum over it which is *slightly* lesser in sound but for me far more comfortable.

Initially, I opted for the Momentum 1 over-ear headphones, but the ear pads were a bit small.  The Momentum 2 has slightly larger ear pads and after buying a pair of those, I'm content with owning them as a pair of headphones I use at work.  It's great to be able to shut out all of the sounds around me and focus on work with some great music playing.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 25 Apr 2016, 04:57 pm
One should also order the $10 ear pad rings which are a newer and thinner version for the new 560, 400s, 400i, etc. series.  These rings prevent the ear pads from spinning, which is a hassle if it's the Focus pads.
Thanks for inform, Hifiman is really a friendly company,
These ear pads rings are round?
They will fit the round old model velour pads and the HE400 can?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: wje on 25 Apr 2016, 08:22 pm
Thanks for inform, Hifiman is really a friendly company,
These ear pads rings are round?
They will fit the round old model velour pads and the HE400 can?

Yes, the ear pad rings are round.  They are listed on their retail site for $10.00.  They will accept the older pad mounts since they also have 4 tabs.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 25 Apr 2016, 08:24 pm
Yes, the ear pad rings are round.  They are listed on their retail site for $10.00.  They will accept the older pad mounts since they also have 4 tabs.
Nice thanks :D
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 11 Aug 2016, 10:37 pm
Just receive a newsletter on a new HE1000V2,
price is the same, seems no drive changes:
1) New polyester pads
2) 420g, 60g lighter
3) headband w/more holes to bigger heads
4) pads are bigger and more angled
5) slim ears cups
6) cable w/3 wires, 2+ & 1- wire
7) avaliable in September.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2WilM6ljUg
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 12 Aug 2016, 12:33 am
Aside from being way too expensive for me, the HE-1000 looks like a Battlestar Galactica prop. But to each his own.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Sep 2016, 01:15 pm
Always interesting have a broad panorama from top HP avaliable on the market, these are top 10 for 2015:
https://www.cnet.com/news/the-audiophiliacs-top-10-full-size-headphones-for-2015/
1) Abyss AS-1266  $5,495
2) AKG K812  $1,500 (I surprised)
3) Audeze LCD4  $3,995
4) AudioQuest Night Hawk  $599
5) Beyerdynamic T1 2ºgen  $1,099
6) Enigm Acouctics Dharma D1000  $1,195
7) HifiMan HE1000  $2,999 (I surprised, I was expecting more from this hp)
8 ) King Sound KS-H3  $1,250
9) Mr.Speakers Ether  $1,500
10) Sony MDR-Z7  $700
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 17 Sep 2016, 03:33 pm
1) I'd give a grudging nod to the Abyss, but that sucker clamps like a medieval torture device and (lack of) comfort trumps the sound quality.
2) K812?? seriously??? The K612pro is secretly the best headphone in their entire lineup.
3) I'm gonna pay 4 times the price of the LCD2 for higher failure rates and marginal increase in sound quality? no thanks
4) It's... it's ok actually, though I'd argue it's not much better than the Sennheiser HD600/650
5) If the 2nd gen is anything like the 1st, wow no.
6) haven't heard it, no comment
7) I reviewed the HE-X which is the baby brother. It's nice, but more of a sidestep from the 560 which is a fraction of the price.
8 ) haven't heard it, no comment
9) It's ok, but I'd personally prefer an Oppo PM-2 at half the price
10) haven't heard it, though I've generally liked previous closed cans from Sony
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Sep 2016, 04:03 pm
Thanks Armaegis for your comments, much appreciated.
I noted there is none Sennheiser model in this short list.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 25 Sep 2016, 02:17 pm
HifiMan HE560 is out of the line.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Letitroll98 on 25 Sep 2016, 03:55 pm
And I don't see the 400i either.  Weird, if you go in through their home page they don't appear, but if you go in from a Google search there are pages for both products.  Is there an official pronouncement from Hifiman that the two are discontinued?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 25 Sep 2016, 04:06 pm
I think there is no official announcements for discontinued models, only to new models arrived, but i can be wrong.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: brooklyn on 25 Sep 2016, 04:17 pm
If you go to the HiFiMan web site and hit products, there’s a button that say’s more reference to
the right of the reference products. The box will open and you will see the rest of the product line..
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 25 Sep 2016, 05:02 pm
If you go to the HiFiMan web site and hit products, there’s a button that say’s more reference to
the right of the reference products. The box will open and you will see the rest of the product line..
Seems they are there:
http://www.hifiman.com/products/class/1
Inclusive an new model Edition X-V2 at astonishing expensive $1299 but even so much cheaper than the regular EdtionX $1799.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 25 Sep 2016, 09:51 pm
The NightHawk is nothing like the HD650.  Check out the many first impressions of the NightHawk - not "soft" or "warm" as much as "dull".

I never said that it was. Not sure what you're picking at.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 26 Sep 2016, 05:42 am
Ah, I can see where the confusion arises. I was writing in a not-quite-double-negative tone, which should have been interpreted as "it's ok... but not better than the HD600 which are cheaper"
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: smk on 26 Sep 2016, 01:45 pm
That's the problem many reviews have. The authors have a tendency to write in their own language which us mere mortals have to interpret without a guide. What dries me nuts are all the descriptive terms available.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 26 Sep 2016, 06:10 pm
That's the problem many reviews have. The authors have a tendency to write in their own language which us mere mortals have to interpret without a guide. What dries me nuts are all the descriptive terms available.

The very nature of reviews is one person describing their experiences within the framework of their subjective sensory inputs, transforming that into flimsy words that only mimic the surface of their experience, and leaving that up to the interpretation of someone else who has entirely different senses and reference points and possibly even language.

Frankly, it's a miracle that we can understand each other at all   8)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 28 Sep 2016, 08:13 pm
Fair enough Dale, though my entire paragraph was written fairly tongue-in-cheek (clearly my usage of the single emoji was not sufficient in this case).

I'm fairly active in the headphone world on other sites and have done my fair share of reviews and comparisons (perhaps second only to you for prolificness here at AC), so I understand where you're coming from regarding reference points etc.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 6 Oct 2016, 10:59 pm
Audeze is providing bank finance and ''free'' shipping to its HPs:
LCD-4
We offer a 30 day trial on all direct headphone sale (dealer sales not applicable). Free US shipping includes Hawaii and Alaska.

Buy now with monthly payments starting from $352/month. Select Affirm at checkout.
$3,995.00
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 7 Oct 2016, 03:09 pm
I'll get right on that...

Headphones are a want, not a need. If you have to take out a loan to buy them, maybe they're too expensive for you? $350+ a month for headphones... wow. Hey, free shipping, though...
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 7 Oct 2016, 03:27 pm
I'll get right on that...

Headphones are a want, not a need. If you have to take out a loan to buy them, maybe they're too expensive for you? $350+ a month for headphones... wow.
This is what I have been saying for long time, HPs prices are artificially inflated by the manufacturers due the high profit margins.

An excellent woofer as the DeltaLiteII 2515 with a huge Neodymium magnet coast $135 each:
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=DeltaliteII_2515
But this HP model above w/a tiny neodymium magnet costs $4000.
There is something wrong in the headphones market.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 7 Oct 2016, 04:04 pm
Well, magnets are only part of the story. The miniaturization required of headphone drivers can also be expensive to execute due to the extremely fine manufacturing tolerances involved, but I just don't see a realistic justification for any headphone to cost $4000. I mean, c'mon, is this thing that much more costly to build than an LCD-2 or -3?  The most expensive headphones I've ever listened to were the Stax SR009 (~$5200 excluding an amp). They sounded great but unless a powerball intervention is in my future, they are going to remain just a nice experience at an audio show for me. But there's obviously some sort of market there.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: milford3 on 7 Oct 2016, 07:24 pm
Well, magnets are only part of the story. The miniaturization required of headphone drivers can also be expensive to execute due to the extremely fine manufacturing tolerances involved, but I just don't see a realistic justification for any headphone to cost $4000. I mean, c'mon, is this thing that much more costly to build than an LCD-2 or -3?  The most expensive headphones I've ever listened to were the Stax SR009 (~$5200 excluding an amp). They sounded great but unless a powerball intervention is in my future, they are going to remain just a nice experience at an audio show for me. But there's obviously some sort of market there.


+1.  Any headphone over 2K is out for me.  My Audeze LCD'2's to this day make my head spin.  I do believe many headphone companies might want to rethink their market.  4K for the Audeze 4? Not me.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 7 Oct 2016, 08:12 pm
It's really more like the headphone market playing catchup with the ultra-hifi market. The more ridiculous you make your "statement" products, the higher the price for your trickle down items which will seem like real bargains.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 7 Oct 2016, 11:58 pm
Every time I read about another $4K headphone, my Sennheiser HD650's and Shure SE535's sound even better to me. Occasional mild EQ makes the Senn "veil" disappear... the Shures don't need anything for me. But like I said, if I win the Powerball, I'm gonna hit Headroom with an order they'll frame and hang on the wall...  :lol:
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 8 Oct 2016, 03:51 am
If I had the money to sling around, I would pick up a Moon Neo 430HA (or maybe monoblock Benchmark AHB2) and a Schiit Yggdrasil. I've already got the Hifiman HE-6 and I don't see that being dethroned except maybe by the SR-009 (I've previously owned the 007).
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 13 Oct 2016, 07:13 pm
There is a upgrade program from HE1000 to HE1000V2,
link not complete in the Hifiman site.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 13 Oct 2016, 07:17 pm
More some press release from the top of the line Shangri-La and his companion 300B amp:
http://www.hifiman.com/shangri-la/index.html
OBS.: I surprised it even more ugly than the HE1000 imo.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 18 Oct 2016, 01:13 pm
HIFIMAN HE1000 Upgrade Program to HE1000V2
Availability: In stock
Our Price: $650.00

Its what the new $3000 HE1000V2 drivers(pair) cost?;
interesting, very interesting...
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Mar 2017, 02:09 pm
Another expensive hp HifiMan Edition 6, you guess $6000:
http://audio-head.com/the-hifiman-re-2000-and-edition-6-ces-2017/
(http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/d-av/403/40313/EDITION6-1_thumb.jpg)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 16 Mar 2017, 03:29 pm
Another Deep End audio product I won't ever buy
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 16 Mar 2017, 05:27 pm
Another expensive hp HifiMan Edition 6, you guess $6000:
http://audio-head.com/the-hifiman-re-2000-and-edition-6-ces-2017/
(http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/d-av/403/40313/EDITION6-1_thumb.jpg)

I know most of you guys probably don't read head-fi, but there was a huge backlash there on the announcement, particularly in regards to the price. But that's not the interesting part of the story. Fang Bian (owner of Hifiman) fell for the trolls and started fighting back and attacking the trolls in the thread. It was a gloriously clusterschmucker of failed PR. The whole thing ended with basically Fang pulling the Chinese equivalent of Godwin's Law.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Mar 2017, 09:26 pm
As I had predicted in a old thread about the Orpheus 55K, now will appear various hp with high prices due the price of the Orpheus.
The guilty is Sennheiser, obviously other hp manufacturers are loving this situation, maybe the AKG K1000 will resurrect from the ashes soon with $10,000 ticket.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Mar 2017, 09:34 pm
I know most of you guys probably don't read head-fi, but there was a huge backlash there on the announcement, particularly in regards to the price. But that's not the interesting part of the story. Fang Bian (owner of Hifiman) fell for the trolls and started fighting back and attacking the trolls in the thread. It was a gloriously clusterschmucker of failed PR. The whole thing ended with basically Fang pulling the Chinese equivalent of Godwin's Law.
Incredible, seems they are a small company.
I dont know anyone that read these hp forums the threads are too long, the best PR there is is low price and good custumer service.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 17 Mar 2017, 07:33 am
I realize the price is high, but being their flagship electrostatic, is it completely outrageous, or "just too high?"
A couple points...
1) I was commenting more on Fang's extremely poor reaction to the backlash and his engagement with the trolls. Someone should have ripped the keyboard away from him; those who were reading the thread before moderators swooped in saw the side of a man who got called out for pricing his items specifically to be the "most expensive" for bragging rights, and his childish attempts to cover it up
2) the build quality of their flagship headphones is pitiful for the price... I would sooner get an Oppo planar and have something that at least feels professional and secure
3) the Edition6 is not the electrostatic, you're thinking the Jade-II or Shangri-La or whatever they're calling it now


As I had predicted in a old thread about the Orpheus 55K, now will appear various hp with high prices due the price of the Orpheus.
The guilty is Sennheiser, obviously other hp manufacturers are loving this situation, maybe the AKG K1000 will resurrect from the ashes soon with $10,000 ticket.

As I mentioned earlier, the headphone market is really just playing catch up with the crazy pricing of the ultra high end hi-fi market. Plus all these "statement" pieces should not really be considered for the general public. They are mostly for PR purposes and bragging rights.

You might also want to consider a difference in culture. In the "nouveau riche" Chinese culture, there is a *significant* emphasis on looking and acting rich. Part of that is literally spending money on the most expensive toys and clothes and all that glitters. People wander around shopping malls acting pretentious and carrying empty bags, but these bags are from the elite stores to make it look like they are affluent enough to shop there (and people will pay big bucks for the bags alone). In this arena, Fang has chosen to create a glitzy piece of jewelry that happens to make music. That's not to discredit any of the R&D and everything that went into them, and reportedly they do sound good, but inside sources say he priced it to literally be higher than the Utopia because he desperately wants to have the title of most expensive headphone on the market. Sadly, this fact alone is going to push sales to the nouveau riche in China.

Also, there is in fact a successor to the K1000 coming out...
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 19 Mar 2017, 03:08 pm
In a surprising move Dr.Fang renamed the Edition 6 name to SUSVARA whatever it mean.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 19 Mar 2017, 04:22 pm
Perhaps in an attempt to distance it from the fallout of the earlier announcement and start over as it were.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 20 Mar 2017, 05:28 pm
He desperately needs to hire a native English speaker who can handle the PR on this side of the ocean.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: spectralman on 29 Jun 2017, 04:35 am
He desperately needs to hire a native English speaker who can handle the PR on this side of the ocean.
+1 on this.  I saw a lot of the skirmish over on Head-Fi.  It was pretty ugly and darn funny too.  Fang wants to become one of the nouveau Chinese riche very badly, if he isn't already.

On another issue, I bought a pr. of HEX V2's used on Head-Fi.  They were my first pr. of ortho's and most likely my last.  I didn't care for 'em at all.  They were detailed and somewhat layered, but lacked any sort of dynamics and bass was non-exsistent.  I don't know if this was because they were open-backed or ortho's tbh.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: grsimmon on 29 Jun 2017, 05:36 am
I know this is slightly off-topic,  but I thought I'd share this:

I've owned a number of "then current" flagship headphones (from Beyerdynamic, Senn, Ultrasone Ed.8, etc.)  for home use,  and finally said the heck with it.   I found what I was looking for in the Oppo PM-3,   picked it up used for $250.   In my opinion,  very comfortable,  good isolation, and very neutral/even sound.   I never would have guessed a headphone this affordable would be this good, and I'm not chasing flagships anymore.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 30 Jun 2017, 05:40 pm
That makes you the manufacturers' worst nightmare,. They need you to become vaguely dissatisfied with what you've got every few years even if it works/sounds just fine. Same goes for every other component. I'm kind of in a similar place. I was getting the "itch"to replace my HD650's, my tastes having drifted in a different direction due (I think) to my increasing use of my Etymotics and SE535's. I'd been considering selling the HD650's but since Massdrop is killing the used market with the "HD6xx" drop which is down to $199. I'll just keep them if it means a next-to-nothing sale price, but I do have an interest in a more neutral around-ear at a non-flagship price.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 30 Jun 2017, 05:48 pm
Fang has chosen to create a glitzy piece of jewelry that happens to make music. That's not to discredit any of the R&D and everything that went into them, and reportedly they do sound good, but inside sources say he priced it to literally be higher than the Utopia because he desperately wants to have the title of most expensive headphone on the market.
I guess he decided to exclude the ultimate 'blingphone', the Sennheiser Orpheus, from his radar.

Good points about the state of the industry. After Sennheiser proved that people would consider paying $1500 for a headphone, there has been a mad rush to discover just where the line is. Focal could probably sell the Utopia for the same price and still make money.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 30 Jun 2017, 05:50 pm
In a surprising move Dr.Fang renamed the Edition 6 name to SUSVARA whatever it mean.
Maybe it's Chinese for COVFEFE?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 1 Jul 2017, 03:41 am
On a more serious (and on-topic) note, if I were spending that kind of coin on cans, I'd go Stax SR-009 long before Hifiman, primarily for the build-quality issues Armaegis mentioned.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 1 Jul 2017, 06:10 am
Funny thing - when the customers understand marketing better than the manufacturer, the manufacturer needs to consult with some new marketing people.
Ain't that the truth!
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 1 Jul 2017, 01:55 pm
A couple points...
1) I was commenting more on Fang's extremely poor reaction to the backlash and his engagement with the trolls.
Got a link? Sounds amusing.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 1 Jul 2017, 03:22 pm
Got a link? Sounds amusing.


The thread was heavily moderated/pruned after it went off the rails. Here are some screencaps, though some pruning had already started by then...

http://imgur.com/serEDX7
http://imgur.com/Aw18slq
http://imgur.com/PWsRJd6
http://imgur.com/gmWGIZ9
http://imgur.com/SFQ2rnv
 
The final page on the official thread ends with him comparing people's attitudes with that of the Chinese cultural revolution... which is basically the Chinese equivalent of comparing to Hitler/Nazis. It was shut down shortly after that.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 1 Jul 2017, 09:27 pm
At the HifiMan V2 upgrade program on see that the V2 drivers cost is very low.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: George Jackson on 14 Jul 2017, 03:43 am
Really, the headphone market is just playing catchup on the speaker world. How many people actually buy the 5-6 digit toys? With very few exceptions, those serve more as statement pieces to inflate the company ego/perception.
'
 Can't agree with you more. more and more people tend to listen to music on mobile devices
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 14 Jul 2017, 05:44 pm
'
 Can't agree with you more. more and more people tend to listen to music on mobile devices
They use ear buds, hi-fi HPs arent mobile, the amp usually is a heavy tube amp.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 15 Jul 2017, 12:07 am
They use ear buds, hi-fi HPs arent mobile, the amp usually is a heavy tube amp.

Are you saying that ear buds can't be hi-fi? To be sure, most are not, but most fullsize headphones aren't great either, and the best IEM's can sound pretty damn good. When I listen to Tidal HiFi or lossless files on my phone through my Audioquest Dragonfly and Etymotics or SE535's, the sound is quite respectable. I'm also puzzled by the apparent assertion that headphone amps are "usually" heavy tube units; there are plenty of SS amps out there, both desktop and portable.

Far from being non-competitive, the headphone market is probably the single most competitive segment of the audio market. As usual, the really good things are a small portion of the overall market (even at 'high-end' price points), but there are literally hundreds of options out there, and a good selection even after one separates the wheat from the chaff. Granted, a lot of manufacturers (I'm looking at you, HiFiMan) seem a lot more interested in pushing the boundaries of what they can get people to pay than there are trying to bring hi end performance to more moderately priced products, but that's how high end works.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: charmerci on 15 Jul 2017, 12:17 am
How true.  If there were more attention on better sound, and more competition in the better headphones and amps, the prices could be much lower.


It's kind of hard to get to the end so they might not all be headphones but amazon shows over 50 thousand results for headphones!  :o


There should be something for everyone!  :lol:
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Jul 2017, 12:22 am
Are you saying that ear buds can't be hi-fi? To be sure, most are not, but most fullsize headphones aren't great either, and the best IEM's can sound pretty damn good. When I listen to Tidal HiFi or lossless files on my phone through my Audioquest Dragonfly and Etymotics or SE535's, the sound is quite respectable. I'm also puzzled by the apparent assertion that headphone amps are "usually" heavy tube units; there are plenty of SS amps out there, both desktop and portable.

Far from being non-competitive, the headphone market is probably the single most competitive segment of the audio market. As usual, the really good things are a small portion of the overall market (even at 'high-end' price points), but there are literally hundreds of options out there, and a good selection even after one separates the wheat from the chaff. Granted, a lot of manufacturers (I'm looking at you, HiFiMan) seem a lot more interested in pushing the boundaries of what they can get people to pay than there are trying to bring hi end performance to more moderately priced products, but that's how high end works.

I certainly agree with all of this. I consider my Etymotic ER4Ss to be an important and dependable reference. I first heard gross tonal aberations on my Beyer
1350s by cross checking with my ER4Ss at one of my choral recording sessions. The BeyerDynamics sounded great until I tried the Etymotics, then whoops!
I can hear significant details on these that escape even very good speakers. For one example, 20 years ago, spured on by rave reviews, I bought a copy of an orchestral recording made by Peter McGrath with the best quality microphones, cables and mic preamps. I was sufficiently impressed by the sound of the violins (easily the best reproduction I had ever heard) to pursue the dealership of the microphones (Schoeps) for western Canada. A while later, I listened to the recording again only to be disappointed in that the violins sounded not so special anymore. I was listening through a pair of Harbeth HLP3s, a respectable set of near field monitors. Then I remembered I had been listening through my Etymotics, but had not thought of them as particularly superior to my Harbeths, but I hadn't done a careful comparison. When listening to the recording again through the Etymotics, all the magic returned.

Apparently Dan D'Agostino used to use Etymotic ER4s IEMs to check on the sound of his new amplifier designs.

Also, all this is audible through ordinary headphone amps, too. The only good headphone amp I have is the Headroom Supreme, vintage 1996 or so, and I don't take that to recording sessions (but it was what I heard the Peter McGrath recording through).

Earbuds certainly can be considered hi-fi!
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 16 Jul 2017, 01:03 am
95% of them are crap, but the same can be said for speakers, albums, movies, TV shows, restaurants etc etc etc. The really good ones will light you up though!

Never heard any of the ER4 series but I'd like to, especially the new version. My Shure SE535's beat my Etymotic hf's in some ways (more detailed, 'faster' sounding, more punchiness at the low end), but drift towards the 'warmer' side and don't have the scrupulous neutrality of the Etys. Even though there is a 3:1 price ratio difference, I listen to both, depending on the recording and/or my mood..
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Jul 2017, 02:09 am
Interestingly, the closest an over-the-ear 'phone has come to the ER4S, in my experience is the long-discontinued AKG K 240DF, the 600Ω version, not the current one, the K240 MkII (which doesn't deserve to use the same model designation).
They are demanding of an amp, being 600Ω, but can be fairly easily found still and are usually in good shape because the construction is really durable. My son bought a pair on my recommendation and had good results changing the ear pads and using the FiiO E12 Mont Blanc amplifier.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 16 Jul 2017, 12:58 pm
Harman bought AKG; then Samsung bought Harman- and moved all production to China for low labor costs. I guess 'all' would include the 240. So it is disingenuous when Massdrop claims '67% off' on the K7xx (vs the K712 Anniv) while conveniently ignoring the fact that the 712 was made in Austria and the 7xx in China. May be a non sequitur but this thread is 'Headphone Market News'...

Russell, have you heard the updated ER4 (either version)?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Jul 2017, 09:37 pm
Harman bought AKG; then Samsung bought Harman- and moved all production to China for low labor costs. I guess 'all' would include the 240. So it is disingenuous when Massdrop claims '67% off' on the K7xx (vs the K712 Anniv) while conveniently ignoring the fact that the 712 was made in Austria and the 7xx in China. May be a non sequitur but this thread is 'Headphone Market News'...

Russell, have you heard the updated ER4 (either version)?

Apparently AKGs are made now by a factory in China who also market their own brand—"iSK", the HD-9999 model of which is well liked, if you can tolerate the cosmetics:   https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/1030466-isk-pro-audio-low-end-heaven.html
I bought a pair and can understand why they are popular, but I had to obscure the garish gold logo on the headband with black felt pen.

I have not heard the newer ER4SR and XR but I would guess I would like them a lot, based on what Etymotic says about them. I just couldn't justify buying them even at the reduced price for current owners when my current pair are working so well and have probably another ten years in them. I think I would go for the SR, based on two comments; one on the subtley reduced distortion in the SR and the other that the SR has a tad more bass than the original ER4S.
Etymotic themselves, if you read very carefully between the lines, seem to say that the SR is the more accurate and the XR is their attempt at trying to please the 'more bass' crowd. They are a serious, research based company, apparently engineer-driven and that gives me confidence in them.

Here's a thorough review:  https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/25-years-making-good-thing-better-etymotic-er4sr-and-er4xr
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 16 Jul 2017, 11:01 pm
I've gotta say, what is being said about the new Audeze iSine 20 (and 10) has me intrigued, too, given that the iSine10 sells for a mere $50 more.

For example:
https://www.head-fi.org/f/showcase/audeze-isine-20.22038/reviews
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 17 Jul 2017, 03:30 am
Had a really interesting visitor in my store today. As he was getting his card out, I saw a Sennheiser business card in his wallet. Turned out to be Sennheiser's Director of Global Sales. Wish I could say I got some hot intel on Sennheiser's product plans- but I didn't. We did, however, discuss the HD800 versions, the 650, and my wish for Sennheiser to give Audeze and Hifiman some competition in the rationally priced planar space, i.e. to filter down some of the technology from the Orpheus blingphone. (I specifically said "If Audeze can put a nice sounding planar on the market for ~$700 (the EL-8), then I know Sennheiser can put something out in the $1K-2K range." I had the impression that Sennheiser was lukewarm on jumping wholeheartedly into the planar space; he kind of implied that the 800 series filled this niche, but on the other hand, he may have just been playing his cards close to his chest.

It was an interesting conversation for a headphone nerd to say the least.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 17 Jul 2017, 04:29 am
Oh to have been a fly on that wall...
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 17 Jul 2017, 06:14 am
(I specifically said "If Audeze can put a nice sounding planar on the market for ~$700 (the EL-8), then I know Sennheiser can put something out in the $1K-2K range."

Fascinating. What an great chance encounter.

I would have thought that Sennheiser with all its resources and technical experience should be able to match the efforts of a small independant like Audeze at 2/3 the price, not double. On the other hand, frankly, I wonder if they could improve or even match what some others are doing, even if they wanted to.

I haven't heard the current top of the line Sennheisers so can't comment on those, but I did borrow a pair of HD-650s 13 years ago to take to Armenia as a convenience backup to my Etymotic ER4Ss while recording an orchestral concert, convenience in that they would be faster to put on/take off than IEMs. I was monitoring what I was doing off the mixing board with the Etymotics. When I tried the 650s on to see how they compared, expecting them to be similar—possibly better, based on price and reputation—I was shocked at what I heard. The Etymotics sounded (and always have at other recording sessions) almost identical to the acoustic sound I heard when taking them off; the Sennheisers were not even in the ballpark. I really was puzzled; you could say shocked. It sounded like I was listening through three layers of blanket.

I never used them again on that trip, but when I returned home I made a point of tracking down another 650 and a 600 to make sure that the pair I heard were not defective and an aberration. Apparently they weren't.

This was the beginning of my realization of the sometimes profound difference between what has become considered desirable in 'high end' home hi-fi and the better professional gear.

Sorry Sennheiser fans, but this is a carefully considered recounting of my experience and I write this in an effort to stimulate the re-thinking of some long-held assumptions. Headphones, like loudspeakers, are the biggest variables in the replay chain.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 17 Jul 2017, 12:37 pm
Fascinating. What an great chance encounter.

I would have thought that Sennheiser with all its resources and technical experience should be able to match the efforts of a small independant like Audeze at 2/3 the price, not double. On the other hand, frankly, I wonder if they could improve or even match what some others are doing, even if they wanted to.

I haven't heard the current top of the line Sennheisers so can't comment on those, but I did borrow a pair of HD-650s 13 years ago to take to Armenia as a convenience backup to my Etymotic ER4Ss while recording an orchestral concert, convenience in that they would be faster to put on/take off than IEMs. I was monitoring what I was doing off the mixing board with the Etymotics. When I tried the 650s on to see how they compared, expecting them to be similar—possibly better, based on price and reputation—I was shocked at what I heard. The Etymotics sounded (and always have at other recording sessions) almost identical to the acoustic sound I heard when taking them off; the Sennheisers were not even in the ballpark. I really was puzzled; you could say shocked. It sounded like I was listening through three layers of blanket.

I never used them again on that trip, but when I returned home I made a point of tracking down another 650 and a 600 to make sure that the pair I heard were not defective and an aberration. Apparently they weren't.

This was the beginning of my realization of the sometimes profound difference between what has become considered desirable in 'high end' home hi-fi and the better professional gear.

Sorry Sennheiser fans, but this is a carefully considered recounting of my experience and I write this in an effort to stimulate the re-thinking of some long-held assumptions. Headphones, like loudspeakers, are the biggest variables in the replay chain.

I have both Etymotics and HD650s and the voicings are indeed different. (And my Shure SE535's are somewhere in between...)

It seems to me that there are two general approaches to voicing transducers: Make it as neutral/flat as possible and let the chips fall where they may; and 2) Voice in the context of expected source material. Ety took the first approach, Senn the 2nd IMJ. I find that quite a bit of digitally-mastered source material is mixed 'hot', and I think the 650 is voiced to take that into account.
Sometimes I add some boost to the highs with my 650's and sometimes I taper off the highs just a smidge with my Ety's. It's all about what makes that particular recording sound most believable to my ears. I'm not the purist I once was.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 17 Jul 2017, 03:09 pm
Sennheiser HD650's also require some decent amping behind them. At the very least, you need something with a low output impedance so you don't get wonky FR variations due to the HD650's massive impedance spike in the midbass.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 18 Dec 2017, 11:16 am
Link: Innerfidelity underwhelmed by new Sennheiser HD660S (https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-660-s-over-ear-open-headphones)

So maybe it doesn't matter that the drivers are not retrofittable to the 600/650. Haven't heard the 660S myself so can't comment on the sound (there wasn't one at Capital Audiofest) but Tyll is pretty reliable and backs up his reasoning with data so if you've read his stuff, you have an idea of how your tastes in general relate to his.
I can tell you that the Beyerdynamic Amiron is a strong contender at a $100 uptick. Writing a review, bit by bit (Holiday season in retail).
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 18 Dec 2017, 11:24 am
Sennheiser HD650's also require some decent amping behind them. At the very least, you need something with a low output impedance so you don't get wonky FR variations due to the HD650's massive impedance spike in the midbass.

Often wondered why most Senns do that. I don't see it elsewhere. But for a high-impedance design like the 650 should it matter as much as if it was, say, a 50 ohm phone? BTW 660S (which is half the impedance) has a big peak too according to Innerfi's measurements.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 18 Dec 2017, 05:41 pm
Often wondered why most Senns do that. I don't see it elsewhere. But for a high-impedance design like the 650 should it matter as much as if it was, say, a 50 ohm phone? BTW 660S (which is half the impedance) has a big peak too according to Innerfi's measurements.
Usually speakers manufacturers made it to get hi SPL.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 18 Dec 2017, 05:53 pm
Link: Innerfidelity underwhelmed by new Sennheiser HD660S (https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-660-s-over-ear-open-headphones)

So maybe it doesn't matter that the drivers are not retrofittable to the 600/650. Haven't heard the 660S myself so can't comment on the sound (there wasn't one at Capital Audiofest) but Tyll is pretty reliable and backs up his reasoning with data so if you've read his stuff, you have an idea of how your tastes in general relate to his.
I can tell you that the Beyerdynamic Amiron is a strong contender at a $100 uptick. Writing a review, bit by bit (Holiday season in retail).

Dig the measurements: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-660-s-over-ear-open-headphones-measurements

I find Tyll's ability to review rather refreshing actually. More honest.

I'm happy my MassDrop HD6XX's arrived the other day. I wanted a daily driver headphone to take with me on vacations while hanging out in hotels, etc... I'm far from a headphone enthusiast though!

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 18 Dec 2017, 06:01 pm
Hope you have something with some juice to drive them, the 600 series are a tough load, You'll get sound out of portable devices but not dynamics. Dragonfly Red out of a computer or phone would be a good choice.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 18 Dec 2017, 06:37 pm
Hope you have something with some juice to drive them, the 600 series are a tough load, You'll get sound out of portable devices but not dynamics. Dragonfly Red out of a computer or phone would be a good choice.

That indeed is the plan.

I can also use the XLR outputs (with custom adapter) from my TAPX.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 3 Jan 2018, 12:32 am
There is a new model at HifiMan site called Sundara at $499, its show a all new headband and can strap, on the photos its not beautiful:
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/sundara.html
(http://store.hifiman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/0/800421a0297.jpg)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: JohnR on 8 Jan 2018, 02:04 pm
There is a new model at HifiMan site called Sundara at $499, its show a all new headband and can strap, on the photos its not beautiful:
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/sundara.html

Now showing as out of stock!  :scratch:

Anyway I'm not finding much online about these yet except for some initial press at RMAF last year. Big contrast to the new LCD-2 (classic). I'm wondering if everybody is a bit gunshy of Hifiman after they started selling the HE-560 at half retail. Like, this week Sundara is 499, next week 299... ?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: JohnR on 8 Jan 2018, 02:05 pm
Now showing as out of stock!  :scratch:

Still for sale on their eBay store though :scratch: :scratch:
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 9 Jan 2018, 06:10 am
Etymotic is introducing the ER3 IEM, which apparently replaces the hf series. Like the top of the line ER4, it comes in both 'SR' (Actually 'SE' for this model, but the concept is the same- a 'dead neutral' presentation) and 'XR' voicings, and has a metal body and (nice1) replaceable cable. Here's Ety's press release:
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2018/01/08/1284882/0/en/Etymotic-Brings-High-Fidelity-at-an-Affordable-Price-To-CES-2018.html
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: JohnR on 10 Jan 2018, 06:36 am
Interesting. Half the price of the ER4s. Wonder how they differ sound-wise?

Seem to have been shipping for a few weeks, some user reviews already on amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Etymotic-ER3XR-Extended-Response-Earphones/dp/B076652HPH

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 11 Jan 2018, 04:35 am
There is a new model at HifiMan site called Sundara at $499, its show a all new headband and can strap, on the photos its not beautiful:
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/sundara.html
(http://store.hifiman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/0/800421a0297.jpg)

I think it looks good! To each his own though.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 11 Jan 2018, 03:16 pm
I must say that 'styling' isn't the top consideration for me, as long as it's reasonably tastefully designed, unlike the AKG N90Q:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174307)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 11 Jan 2018, 06:52 pm
I think it looks good! To each his own though.
The paint is mate black!
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 15 Jan 2018, 07:42 pm
Now HERE's some news.... Sennheiser showed a closed-back version of the HD800 (the HD820) at CES.

Here's the link from Innerfidelity's show report. (https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/ces-2018sennheiser-hd-820-over-ear-sealed-headphones)

Quote from the report: "Unfortunately, Axel Grell, Audiophile Portfolio Manager, was not in the booth, but I assume this $2399 headphone is targeted at the high-end audiophile and audio professional market.." Yeah, sounds like a pretty safe assumption... Aside from the exercise in conspicuous consumption that is the Orpheus, this would seem to be their new flagship.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 15 Jan 2018, 07:56 pm
Hooefully it won't peel off!
That's the only way it could get any uglier.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: restrav on 13 Feb 2018, 11:10 pm
The closed back version of the monolith 1060'just became available.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=120&cp_id=12001&cs_id=1082707&p_id=29513&seq=1&format=2

Some people have called them the budget audeze LCD xc.I have never heard the audeze so I wouldn't know.just reporting
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 19 May 2018, 06:42 am
Good news Massdrop is bringing the Sennheiser HD820:
Sealed back?
https://www.massdrop.com/talk/7709/sennheiser-hd-820-headphones
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 28 May 2018, 03:31 am
Now there are three 800 models: HD800, HD800S, HD820 :scratch:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180574)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 28 May 2018, 08:40 pm
Yes, it's a sealed back. It's also $2400. Don't know what the Massdrop price might be but I don't really care unless the discount is 85-90%  :lol:. I posted here about the 820 back in January when it was announced. Here's the link to the Innerfidelity show report. (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141347.msg1658819#msg1658819)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: mr_bill on 28 May 2018, 09:24 pm
How much discount are Massdrops usually?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 28 May 2018, 11:50 pm
+1 good question.

I see an HifiMan at inexpensive value, but Sennheiser HD800 is a greatly overpriced  product.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 29 May 2018, 02:24 am
The metal structural parts of the HD800 (earcups for instance) are machined stainless steel, an extremely hard material that is difficult and time-consuming (and therefore expensive) to work with. The fact that it is handmade in Germany as opposed to some third world country with poverty wages doesn't exactly drive the cost down either. That said, I don't know what exactly accounts for the $800+ price hike over the HD800.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 29 May 2018, 02:40 am
The metal structural parts of the HD800 (earcups for instance) are machined stainless steel, an extremely hard material that is difficult and time-consuming (and therefore expensive) to work with. The fact that it is handmade in Germany as opposed to some third world country with poverty wages doesn't exactly drive the cost down either. That said, I don't know what exactly accounts for the $800+ price hike over the HD800.

The enclosure might have taken allot of R and D and thus $800. I think they will have a street price of $1500 in a few years.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 29 May 2018, 02:44 am
+1 good question.

I see an HifiMan at inexpensive value, but Sennheiser HD800 is a greatly overpriced  product.

With the right amp the hd800 is a bargain. With the wrong amp it is greatly overpriced. The most amp dependent dynamic headphone I have ever tried by a country mile. Classic headroom amps and modern day ECP amps will get the job done. Everything else not so much.

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 29 May 2018, 02:48 am
I though the parts were cast aluminum, steel are expensive and heavy.
Alumimum is so cheap they made soda cans with it.
The HD800 max retail was MSRP $1,399.95 at the release date eons ago, not $1500.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 29 May 2018, 03:06 am
(and Stereophile reviewed them in 2009 and said $1500; Innerfidelity in 2012 at $1500. I definitely remember seeing it at (and hearing) $1500 at the time because everybody had 'sticker shock' at the time. Now, $1500 is considered 'mid-priced' to some (sigh...)

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/brilliant-sennheiser-hd-800
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 29 May 2018, 06:15 am
Yep allot of $4-5k headphones out now have made $1500 allot more acceptable. I'm also pretty sure the hd800 was price locked by sennheiser for a few years. I have tried 5 of these $4-5k headphones and found the hd800 to have a better build quality, better comfort and with the right amplifier better sonics.

A $1500 hd800 with a $5k Apex Teton amp really is not all that crazy to me when looking at its higher priced competition. A $1k wheatfield ha-2 (classic headroom) or ECP torpedo III will get you one of the best bargains out there in audio right now. Really truly hifi for less than $2k if you don't mind your hd800 used.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 29 May 2018, 11:13 am
Fortunately it's not necessary to spend thousands to get satisfying headphone sound if you are only interested in impressing your ears, not your friends. A Schiit Magni or O2 for instance, paired with a Beyer Amiron, HD6xx. AKG 7xx, or some of the more rationally priced Hifiman or Sennheiser models, will get you to where you'd have to spend a LOT more money to get really better sound (and as usual, high price is not a guarantee of high performance). As always, if you've got money to burn, this hobby will accommodate you.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 29 May 2018, 11:53 am
Massdrop is showing now this $1400 value, I already see the 1400 era.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: timind on 29 May 2018, 12:04 pm
Fortunately it's not necessary to spend thousands to get satisfying headphone sound if you are only interested in impressing your ears, not your friends. A Schiit Magni or O2 for instance, paired with a Beyer Amiron, HD6xx. AKG 7xx, or some of the more rationally priced Hifiman or Sennheiser models, will get you to where you'd have to spend a LOT more money to get really better sound (and as usual, high price is not a guarantee of high performance). As always, if you've got money to burn, this hobby will accommodate you.

Excellent post. And as the headphone experience is so personal, you may not enjoy the sound from the ultra-expensive models. They may sound grand on first listen, but give them time and the luster wears off.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 29 May 2018, 12:35 pm
Thanks timind. It's the ol' 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. IMJ what you are paying for with much high-priced gear is frequently 'bling' more so than performance. I don't have a 'bling' budget so I have Amirons not HD800's. I've heard both, and when I'm sitting listening to my Beyers, I'm not thinking, "Sh**, I wish I had HD800's", Im thinking, "Wow, this music sounds great." As Frank van Alstine said in his old newsletter, "There are many more sideways steps taken on the road to audio bliss than forward steps." (Paraphrasing.)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 29 May 2018, 01:10 pm
In the 1960s I dont had a headphone so I used take the mobile victrola 6'' speakers and put it in my ears and the soundstage and general SQ was amazing, so I aware the phones speaker size are the most important factor to a HP, so the HD800 2 inches speaker size are not enough let alone the competidors.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 29 May 2018, 09:36 pm

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180680)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 30 May 2018, 05:14 am
In the 1960s I dont had a headphone so I used take the mobile victrola 6'' speakers and put it in my ears and the soundstage and general SQ was amazing, so I aware the phones speaker size are the most important factor to a HP, so the HD800 2 inches speaker size are not enough let alone the competidors.

The 2 inches is just fine. The drivers are setting much closer to your ears. The hd800's soundstage is its biggest attribute compared to its competitors. Maybe akg k-1000, maybe stax sigma other than those 2 headphones not much else competes with the hd800 soundstage.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 30 May 2018, 05:28 am
Fortunately it's not necessary to spend thousands to get satisfying headphone sound if you are only interested in impressing your ears, not your friends. A Schiit Magni or O2 for instance, paired with a Beyer Amiron, HD6xx. AKG 7xx, or some of the more rationally priced Hifiman or Sennheiser models, will get you to where you'd have to spend a LOT more money to get really better sound (and as usual, high price is not a guarantee of high performance). As always, if you've got money to burn, this hobby will accommodate you.

I don't consider $400 to $2k a giant leap. I also think a well driven hd800 makes the headphones you mentioned sound like toys. A good bang for the buck but only a glimpse of hifi not actual hifi.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 30 May 2018, 05:45 am
The 2 inches is just fine. The drivers are setting much closer to your ears. The hd800's soundstage is its biggest attribute compared to its competitors. Maybe akg k-1000, maybe stax sigma other than those 2 headphones not much else competes with the hd800 soundstage.
Not fine at this price. If you have two 6'' FR drivers laying around you could made a DIY headphones to know how good it is.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 30 May 2018, 01:56 pm
I don't consider $400 to $2k a giant leap.

I do.

Quote
I also think a well driven hd800 makes the headphones you mentioned sound like toys. A good bang for the buck but only a glimpse of hifi not actual hifi.

"Not actual hifi"? OK. Two of the models I mentioned were Stereophile author references at one time or another, and the HD650 was in production for close to 15 years. As good as the HD800? Probably not, but "not [even] actual hifi"? Jeez.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 2 Jun 2018, 05:57 pm
I do.

"Not actual hifi"? OK. Two of the models I mentioned were Stereophile author references at one time or another, and the HD650 was in production for close to 15 years. As good as the HD800? Probably not, but "not [even] actual hifi"? Jeez.

That is fine if you think it is a giant leap. Don't go for it. But that does not automatically mean the hd800 is an overpriced headphone.

Stereophile is funny. They are way more into speakers. The fact that Tyll from headroom and Doug from ECP build amps for the hd800 speaks way more volumes than anything stereophile has to say.

I don't know why you feel the need to bring up how long the hd650 has been in production. The Sony mdr-v6 has been in production twice as long.

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 2 Jun 2018, 06:01 pm
Not fine at this price. If you have two 6'' FR drivers laying around you could made a DIY headphones to know how good it is.

I would never put drivers that large that close to my ears. I think the chance of someone hurting their hearing is very good and I think your posts should be taken down at the risk of someone actually trying that and permanently ruining their hearing.

If you want to DIY your own headphones and give impressions that is one thing. To suggest that people put 6 inch drivers less than 1 inch away from their ear is just plain dangerous, careless and shame on you.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: timind on 2 Jun 2018, 06:47 pm
I would never put drivers that large that close to my ears. I think the chance of someone hurting their hearing is very good and I think your posts should be taken down at the risk of someone actually trying that and permanently ruining their hearing.

If you want to DIY your own headphones and give impressions that is one thing. To suggest that people put 6 inch drivers less than 1 inch away from their ear is just plain dangerous, careless and shame on you.

His post should be taken down? Ridiculous is the most polite way I can put it. Have you never laid on the floor with your ears between your speakers and jammed? Back in the 70s Born To Run was killer in that way. Taken down?  :roll:

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: timind on 2 Jun 2018, 06:54 pm
Thanks timind. It's the ol' 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. IMJ what you are paying for with much high-priced gear is frequently 'bling' more so than performance. I don't have a 'bling' budget so I have Amirons not HD800's. I've heard both, and when I'm sitting listening to my Beyers, I'm not thinking, "Sh**, I wish I had HD800's", Im thinking, "Wow, this music sounds great." As Frank van Alstine said in his old newsletter, "There are many more sideways steps taken on the road to audio bliss than forward steps." (Paraphrasing.)

It's all in the ear of the listener.

I don't consider $400 to $2k a giant leap. I also think a well driven hd800 makes the headphones you mentioned sound like toys. A good bang for the buck but only a glimpse of hifi not actual hifi.

To your ear that may be, but I have done serious listening to the HD800 with quality amp and I much prefer the HD650. If you put a new set of each on a table and told me they were mine to keep with the stipulation I had to listen to whichever I chose for a year, I'd pick up the 650s.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 2 Jun 2018, 07:36 pm
reboot
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 2 Jun 2018, 07:50 pm
That is fine if you think it is a giant leap. Don't go for it. But that does not automatically mean the hd800 is an overpriced headphone.

I didn't say that it was.

All I'm saying is that $2K is a lot more money than $400.

Quote
I don't know why you feel the need to bring up how long the hd650 has been in production. The Sony mdr-v6 has been in production twice as long.

I don't know why you feel the need to say the HD650 "isn't real Hi-Fi". Is it as good as HD800? No, of course not... Is that the starting point for "real hi-fi"? Anything less is 'mid-fi' I guess? The 650 has done pretty well for something that isn't 'real hi-fi'. Perspective. And Happy Birthday Sony MDR-V6.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 3 Jun 2018, 03:46 pm
His post should be taken down? Ridiculous is the most polite way I can put it. Have you never laid on the floor with your ears between your speakers and jammed? Back in the 70s Born To Run was killer in that way. Taken down?  :roll:

Did you have the speakers less than 1 inch from your ears? No you did not. Yes what he is suggesting is dangerous.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 3 Jun 2018, 03:54 pm
I didn't say that it was.

All I'm saying is that $2K is a lot more money than $400.

I don't know why you feel the need to say the HD650 "isn't real Hi-Fi". Is it as good as HD800? No, of course not... Is that the starting point for "real hi-fi"? Anything less is 'mid-fi' I guess? The 650 has done pretty well for something that isn't 'real hi-fi'. Perspective. And Happy Birthday Sony MDR-V6.

Well the next jump from what I mentioned at $2k is the sr-009s + DIY T2 or Utopia + DAVE. Price tag $14k or 28k for both. That is really what it will take to have something that will operate on a higher level. IMO. that is a leap. $400 to $2k not so much.

I know plenty of enthusiasts that will say the hd800 combo I mentioned just a glimpse of hifi. Does not really bother me.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 3 Jun 2018, 04:07 pm
It's all in the ear of the listener.

To your ear that may be, but I have done serious listening to the HD800 with quality amp and I much prefer the HD650. If you put a new set of each on a table and told me they were mine to keep with the stipulation I had to listen to whichever I chose for a year, I'd pick up the 650s.

If you like the 650 sonically that is fine. The hd800 can sound like doodoo even out of high quality amps. The schiit mojo and Beta 22 are both great amps but sound like an ice pick (very bright) with the hd800. You really need the 2 amps I mentioned.

Comfort and build quality no. That for sure goes to the hd800 no question. Way better materials on the hd800 all the way around and probably the most comfortable headphone out there regardless of cost.

The hd650 has the clamp of death. If you got a used hd650 consider yourself very lucky as far as comfort goes. I can say for me it took at least 500 hours before the clamp loosened up for me. Before that I could only wear the hd650 15 to 20 min. tops. The hd800 3hours easy right out of the box.

A new hd650 is $500 a used hd800 is only $750.

The hd650 is a very uncomfortable headphone till the super tight clamp goes away
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 3 Jun 2018, 05:51 pm
Through observation I have noticed that most people don't extend the earpieces far enough out of the headband and this raises the clamping pressure dramatically. The headband should just barely touch the top of the head; if you feel pressure there, it's on too tight and you need to extend the headband a click or two. If this is done, the clamping pressure is perfectly reasonable, though never as comfortable as the 800 or the Beyer Amirons I sold my 650's for (which also sound much better). Materials-wise the hd*00 cleans the 650's clock for sure.

The Amirons are actually the most comfortable full-size cans I've ever had on, even better (for me) than the 800, but the 800 is no slouch and wins somewhat on sound for ~2.5x the price.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: jibzilla on 6 Jun 2018, 01:34 am
I liked the akg "Annies" better than the hd800 as far as comfort goes. That is about it though.

If you like a darker sounding headphone than the hd800, like the hd650, I really like the Koss ESP950 and Stax sr-404le. The rest of the lambda's stink sound wise and the build quality of the Koss is not the greatest but they really make it clear to me why I can't quite put the hd600 and 650 into the "true hifi" category and that is grain.

Some people do not hear the grain. For me it is obvious. Still the 600/650 are a very good bang for the buck and a better bang for the buck than hd800.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 7 Jun 2018, 12:29 pm
New HifiMan planar at $999 25 ohms seems into the Edition X  range.
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/ananda.html
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: Armaegis on 12 Jun 2018, 03:56 am
I though the parts were cast aluminum, steel are expensive and heavy.
Alumimum is so cheap they made soda cans with it.
An older post, but aluminum for the most part is more expensive than steel.
You make soda cans from aluminum because it doesn't rust. 
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 12 Jun 2018, 04:35 am
It's not just the raw materials... Stainless steel is a much harder material than aluminum and therefore much more expensive to do machining on. The stainless steel versions of the Apple Watch are almost twice as expensive as the aluminum versions for the exact same reason.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 12 Jun 2018, 11:55 am
I though the HD800 hardware was alu, there is any info on it?
Any HD800 owner would inform it?
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 12 Jun 2018, 02:31 pm
https://www.stereophile.com/headphones/sennheiser_hd800_headphones/index.html
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Jul 2018, 01:50 am
Well this HPs will delivery the biggest soundstage:
https://icacreation.co.uk/3m-headphones-making/
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: JohnR on 12 Jul 2018, 05:02 am
New HifiMan planar at $999 25 ohms seems into the Edition X  range.
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/ananda.html

Those look pretty interesting, I wonder what the local price is going to be...
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 13 Jul 2018, 04:05 am
I surprised with HifiMan they release many HPs at an impressive pace, one after the other.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 21 Jul 2018, 05:53 am
This Ananda is not a thing I can use in my cd player(no volume control) it is too sensitive at 103dB and 25 ohms, price is out of my range too ((
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 26 Jul 2018, 04:47 pm
Yet another new release on HifiMan top line named Shangri-la Jr. with a dedicated tube amp at 8K usd set:
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/shangri-la-jr-electrostatic-headphone-and-amplifier.html
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 7 Aug 2018, 01:01 am
Some HifiMan models are dancing:
HE560 was exceeded by Sundara at $499.
Edition X now $899 was obsoleted by Anara released at $999.
Top of the line Shangri-la also was surpassed by Shangri-La Jr. at less price(only $8000 w/tube amp) and have a wide freq range 7Hz-120kHz.

OBS.: Jr. without the tube amp is priced $4000.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 1 Oct 2018, 03:26 am
Just received a newsletter with a crop of 5 releases from HifiMan:
The original Jade was a electrostactic Orpheus clone Dr.Fang made some units before HifiMan was founded in a company named HE Audio, looks promising.
Jade II
Arya (looks a cheaper Jade II or a regular Hifiman orthodinamic)
HE5SE
HE6SE
HE1000SE
https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he1000se.html

https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he6se-579.html
(https://i.imgur.com/PEWisYZ.png)
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 21 Oct 2018, 10:26 pm
Is Sennheiser's closed-Back HD820 fatally flawed?

Harman's Sean Olive tested it and published the results, which do look bizarre:

https://www.facebook.com/sean.olive/posts/10217811678665114
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 21 Oct 2018, 10:33 pm
Its a great collector item as the inexpensive also dinamic 50mm driver HifiMan HE350, to listen beauty music there is various planars at Audeze and HifiMan.
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: dB Cooper on 21 Oct 2018, 10:36 pm
AAAAaaand..... Longtime electrostatic speaker maker Janszen is getting into the headphone business with a self-biasing headphone they claim can be driven from portable devices. Since an electrostatic driver is essentially a sound-emitting capacitor, we'll see, but nevertheless....

The introduction target date would support a debut at Capital Audiofest, where Janszen- a speaker maker- has a booth, not a room.

Expected price ~$1500, not all that stratospheric in today's high-end headphone market.

Here is a link to Janszen's page with CAD renderings of the design. (http://www.janszenaudio.com/headphones)

Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: TF1216 on 21 Oct 2018, 11:22 pm
Check out this guy   :popcorn:

https://alclair.com/monitorshop/electro-electrostatic/
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 22 Oct 2018, 06:50 pm
Check out this guy   :popcorn:

https://alclair.com/monitorshop/electro-electrostatic/
This small bud have the same price as the new full size HifiMan Jade-II electrostatic headphone.
Jade-II $1500 ($2499 with solid-state amp)
Arya $1599
HE6SE $1800
HE5SE $699
Title: Re: Headphone Market News
Post by: FullRangeMan on 27 Dec 2018, 10:01 am
Just now see the newsletter from HifiMan, looks the bargain of the year the new JadeII electrostatic large headphone just $1399, with SolidState amp $2499.
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/jade-ii-electrostatic-headphone-601.html?scr=newsletter20181225
Other option is the Sennheiser Orpheus at $55,000.00 Gulp!