Considering a new turntable

2gumby2 · « **on:** 16 Oct 2011, 02:19 pm »

I've got room in one of my 2-channel systems for another turntable. I've always owned Technics direct drive turntables in the past, but I'm considering giving belt drive a try out of curiosity. I was leaning toward a SOTA Comet, but came across the Rega P5 on sale at NeedleDoctor. Around the same price range is the new Rega RP3 as well. Would the new RP3 RB303 tonearm be any better than the RB700 on the P5? Anyone know if the performance of the RP3 surpasses the P5? From what I've read, it seems both of the Regas really need the additional TT-PSU to get the most out of them and that adds $375 to the cost. I'm open to suggestions/recommendations.

doug s. · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Oct 2011, 04:47 pm »

Quote from: 2gumby2 on 16 Oct 2011, 02:19 pm

I've got room in one of my 2-channel systems for another turntable. I've always owned Technics direct drive turntables in the past, but I'm considering giving belt drive a try out of curiosity. I was leaning toward a SOTA Comet, but came across the Rega P5 on sale at NeedleDoctor. Around the same price range is the new Rega RP3 as well. Would the new RP3 RB303 tonearm be any better than the RB700 on the P5? Anyone know if the performance of the RP3 surpasses the P5? From what I've read, it seems both of the Regas really need the additional TT-PSU to get the most out of them and that adds $375 to the cost. I'm open to suggestions/recommendations.

wintage empire will be better than anything you have mentioned, imo. especially if you upgrade the tonearm. the unsuspended decks would be my first choice, if you have proper isolation; they're much easier to set up w/aftermarket arms. and, except for the rare 498 model, the unsuspended empire decks have a slightly superior platter.

doug s.

tomytoons · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Oct 2011, 05:06 pm »

First of all, you have to like the sound of a Rega. The Rega is lively, involving and more. Choose a Phono Pre carefully for your cartridges. It's been a long time since I used a MM cartridge, but there are good ones out there.

I have had 2 P3's in the past and I have a souped up P5 now. Never had a speed problem. No direct comparisons, but the P5 with the TTPS out of the box, stock, is plug and play, very very good with proper cartridge setup. I was a bit surprised how good it was with simple setup.

I got the P5 used at a very good price which makes any upgrades easier to consider over time $$. I got lucky and got all the GT stuff used except the Sub-platter. These pieces do show up used, and mostly sold separate from the table.

I use the Dyna 10X5 and switch between that an a Denon DL103R, both with 2>2mm spacers that make the arm at a perfect height.
I use a "KWillis" protractor ($50) specifically for the RB700 arm. Quick and very easy "Baerwald" alignment. You can hear the difference.
The P5 just killed the Basis 1400 I had, RB300, Incognito wired, Benz Glider, Basis Clamp. I was playing less and less vinyl all the time I had it for 4 years.

The P5 improves further by the following upgrade path. I imagine the P3--? will too. Some say do not do these upgrades because it take away the basic Rega sound. I do not agree.

TTPS, there are others besides Rega's
Groovetracer Reference version Sub-platter
Double white belt/pulley (like P7) excellent upgrade!!
GT Counterweight
GT Acrylic platter, with a TT Weights 7oz screw clamp
I could live fine with the stock glass /felt platter too
I did not re-wire the RB700, I have always rewired an RB300 with Incognito kit. I do not feel right now the RB700 requires re-wiring.

Between the TTPS, sub-platter upgrade, and double belt/pulley you have very nice speed stability and that Rega involvement is improved further.

As they say YMMV and only you can make these decisions. This is just my take. There a re a lot of tables to choose from in all price categories.
I hope this helps a bit.

eclein · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Oct 2011, 05:51 pm »

tomytoons- you gotta let me pick your brain sometime about turntables!! After I get my NEW shiny as Schitt DAC in the house I will work on refining my newish vinyl rig my man Dean set me up with.....first-and not meaning to steal the thread-I need a good cheap ($100ish) phono pre. I have been looking at the Regas from time to time but I didn't know you could hear that much difference in tables. I'll follow this thread to see what I can learn from some pros....thanks for letting me but in...LOL oops..

2gumby2 · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 12:01 am »

Tomytoons - What is meant when the Rega turntables are described as "lively"? Can you describe in a little more detail about what each of your upgrades did for your P5?

tomytoons · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 01:57 am »

A whole lot has been written here about the upgrades>
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewforum.php?f=32

Lively is exciting, toe tappin', can't sit still good. Just about the same as involving in CeeDee listening. It depends on the quality of recordings too. There are lots of bummers out there in vinyl. Music good, shiity recordings.

Ed, I would look/ listen to a Vista Audio Phono Pre. It is supposed to be very close to or surpass my beloved Jasmine LP2.0 MKII phono, depending whom thou are talking to. Boris from Vista is a great guy too. The Vista is less $$$$$$$$, It is not adjustable.

neobop · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 01:27 pm »

Hey 2Gumby, what Technics tables did you have?
neo

doug s. · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 06:37 am »

the rega's mentioned are wery nice decks, no doubt. but, why pay more & get less?

ymmv,

doug s.

AudioSoul · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 12:03 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 18 Oct 2011, 06:37 am

the rega's mentioned are wery nice decks, no doubt. but, why pay more & get less?

ymmv,

doug s.

Explain yourself sir! It's so easy to spout off a few words and then leave. That arent very helpful at all. Explain what you mean please.......

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 02:11 pm »

Buck for buck, used tables are better buys these days.

2gumby2 · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 02:25 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 17 Oct 2011, 01:27 pm

Hey 2Gumby, what Technics tables did you have?
neo

I've got a KAB modified SL-1200Mk2 and another stock SL-1200Mk2. A guy I know that's into DJ work wants to buy them, but I haven't decided to sell yet. They are really great turntables. I've just got some curiosity about the belt drives I read about.

tomytoons · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 03:25 pm »

I would keep the KAB, I was thinking about getting one before the P5 and before they were discontinued. Prices for that table stock now are running at $1000 new. No way I would pay that much for a stock 1200.
Used is good that is the only way I would have put so much into the upgrades on the P5. Most of the upgrades were purchased used at good prices. But again, stock out of the box a P5 sounds very good. I was somewhat shocked how good it was with the 10X5 and at the time using a Nova Phono Pre.
I answered in length because you specifically asked a bout Regas.

"Wintage Empire" is a matter of opinion, fine, if you can find one priced right and in near mint condition. I have seen some pretty oxidized up, looks also matters to me.

There are just a whole lot out there now for choice. Tough decisions.

doug s. · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 07:03 pm »

Quote from: AudioSoul on 18 Oct 2011, 12:03 pm

Explain yourself sir! It's so easy to spout off a few words and then leave. That arent very helpful at all. Explain what you mean please.......

the empires are simply killer performers. and they can be easily tweaked, especially the non-suspended iterations. (check out atma-sphere, to see what they do w/the basic empire, for big bucks. and check out the new vpi classic, which is yust basically a new take on the empire.)

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#Atma-208

http://www.vpiindustries.com/static.php?page=Tables

i had an unsuspended empire w/an aftermarket arm, and it was so close to my upgraded oracle... it yust gets everything right. you want audiophile approved language?

ok - pace, timing, timbre, low noise floor...

and, they're also beautiful, imo.

http://cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html

doug s.

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 09:16 pm »

Or, you could get an Empire 598 MKIII and keep the tonearm:

Wayner

neobop · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Oct 2011, 10:32 pm »

I was just curious about what you're thinking of giving up. If most of the money for the new table is coming from the sale of the 1200s, then you have a tough decision. I agree with Tommy, you ought to keep the KAB. If the stock one is in good shape you can get good $ for it.

Whatever the finances are, maybe a used table is a good idea.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Empire-598-II-Troubadour-Turntable-Exceptional-Condition-Works-Great-/280756414258?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e62e732

Taking a quick look on Audiogon I saw a new Thorens 309 in Black for $1350. I haven't heard it, but I've read that it's nice. Also new P5 for $999. I'd sell both 1200s for this:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1324158248&/Goldmund-studietto

Good luck whatever you decide.
neo

2gumby2 · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Oct 2011, 12:00 am »

I'm not too interested in getting an older turntable and then having to tweak or refurbish. That is why I've been focusing on new TTs. And I've read the Regas are easy to set up, especially when used with a Rega cartridge. I'll probably sell the stock 1200 to help fund a new table. I really like the looks of the Rega RP3 and wonder how close it would be to the P5. Anyone with experience with SOTA?
I've been doing some reading on the Well Tempered Lab Simplex and it looks very appealing. The U.S. distributor should have some in soon, but it falls outside my budget at this point. If I go with Well Tempered, I'll have to save up another $1K or so.

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Oct 2011, 06:16 am »

Quote from: 2gumby2 on 19 Oct 2011, 12:00 am

I'm not too interested in getting an older turntable and then having to tweak or refurbish. That is why I've been focusing on new TTs. And I've read the Regas are easy to set up, especially when used with a Rega cartridge. I'll probably sell the stock 1200 to help fund a new table. I really like the looks of the Rega RP3 and wonder how close it would be to the P5. Anyone with experience with SOTA?
I've been doing some reading on the Well Tempered Lab Simplex and it looks very appealing. The U.S. distributor should have some in soon, but it falls outside my budget at this point. If I go with Well Tempered, I'll have to save up another $1K or so.

you don't have to tweak an empire to get it to sound great. it's yust that you can get it to sound even better if you want to...

doug s.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Oct 2011, 04:34 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 18 Oct 2011, 09:16 pm

Or, you could get an Empire 598 MKIII and keep the tonearm:

Wayner

What a beauty!

Minn Mark · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Oct 2011, 06:49 pm »

I have a 1993 SOTA Comet with the LMT arm and currently using a Ortofon 2M Red. I also have a VPI Classic I with a Sumiko Blackbird. Both are going into AVA electronics. Depending on your budget, I think either a new Comet or a Classic would be great choices. I think both will hold thier value, and sure seem rugged and reliable in my hands. The AVA Insight phono stage in their preamps is KILLER (IMHO YMMV).

Also I have a newer Pro-ject Debut III (Ortofon cart) and a vintage Technics SL-D3 (Shure V15). Nice decks, but they don't compare to the SOTA or VPI.

Mark

neobop · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Oct 2011, 11:19 pm »

Gumby,
Are you at all familiar with the sound of any of these tables? Maybe a friend has one or a dealer demo? The reason I ask is that you're used to speed stability of the 1200. Some people need this to enjoy a record and others don't seem as sensitive to this. I prefer direct drive for this reason, although I have a Sota Sapphire. The Sota does some things better than my DDs. This would include weight and solidity of an orchestra. The depth and foundation makes it more real and authoritative in that respect. But I can't live with the pitch issue. The DD have accuracy in that department that most belts don't. I don't listen to much orchestral music anyway.

People seem to differ dramatically about this. If you're not used to hearing any of these tables, maybe it would be good if you could check it out. I know you want something new or not vintage, but is there any way you could do a little research with your ears?
neo