[dlaloum]

I haven't had a chance to analyse the damping - although LuckyDog on VinylEngine has devised a cartridge/arm damping model which may allow me to work out exactly what the Q damping figures do.

In a nutshell, a higher Q Damping figure applies more damping a lower one less....

The better the match between arm and cartridge the less damping would be required.

Best results are normally achieved with the lowest possible damping that will control the arm resonance.

So you can use various test records (I used HFN test record) - which have a combination of a low frequency sweep along with one or more higher frequency tones.

When the arm resonates at a low frequency, you can hear it as a warble (inter modulation distortion) on the higher frequency tones.

With the Dial a Damping knob, you then gently turn up the damping until the warble disappears.

The warble will only appear at the resonant frequency and that sweeps by, so you will need to replay that track a number of times, to get the lowest damping that eliminates the audible warble - then add a touch for good measure.

There is no direct linear mathematical relationship between tracking force and damping (contrary to the instructions)

If the damping knob calibration has any real relationship to true Damping Q (a mathematical/physics concept - which I am trying to understand...) - then it has no relationship to VTF.

On the other hand lower compliance cartridges tend towards higher VTF, and also tend to push more energy into the arm, so they are likely to require a bit more damping - the trend matches the manual, but I doubt the detail specifics are quite so simple - and optimum results probably don't match that at all!

Ignore the manual and use a test record to adjust it.
After that - use your ears.

bye for now

David

[e.man]

Ignore the manual and use a test record to adjust it.
After that - use your ears.

bye for now

David

Thanks for the explanation.  I don't have a test record so it's "Ignore the manual and... - use your ears" here.

It takes a bit of listening when using music but it sounds like a high-end filter or fine tone control.  Listening to a Saxaphone with a lot of damping puts the sound right down in the U-bend,  with little damping i hear more reed.

[TheChairGuy]

e.man,

I don't remember what cartridge you are using - but the definitive recommendation for something really good for a little more than USD$100 is the Denon DL-110 (at $139 list)

However, as many here will attest, I love my Grado's the best and they sound scrumptious on direct drive decks, with built in arm damping.  I've found Grado's can sound over dramatic on belt drive decks, particularly suspended belt drive decks, and leave it little 'snap' to the music that makes it sound like music to me.

On DD decks, especially with damping they sound great.  Do a look-see around about the van Alstine Longhorn mod to improve it further.  Our own 'Wayner' of AudioCircle makes Grado Green1's and Gold1's into high performing Longhorned Grado's (the Longhorn really helps Grado's in tracking).  Further, Marc/BaMorin has access to NOS styli that improve upon the quite lousy Grado stock styli of today for excellent nude, shibata tips of yesteryear if you have extra funds to spare.

Going the pre-made Grado Longhorn route and NOS styli will set you back closer to $500 however.  But, the Denon DL-110 for $139 does a dang nice job for 1/4 less.

How about what's UNDER your JVC?  I've found what's under your deck is in almost all ways a better upgrade than a cartridge.  Once I found maple cutting blocks, at least 3" thick and wide and long enough to sit under my decks, I was smitten forever.

If you're using rubber bushes only between your deck and a shelf of some sort....buying a nice slab of maple cutting board for ~ $100 might make the most beneficial upgrade of all.

This is the one I have: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A-/110678127928?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c4ee3538

You really outta' stuff the clay inside, too, at this point. Using two cans of spray on rubber you have sufficiently damped the bottom board well now....the clay inside really gives some sturdiness, weight and authority to the sound of your deck.  Using 5 rubber bushes as you have, buying a 3" cutting block and having sprayed the bottom board 2x....I think you're well on your way to getting your JVC to perform at an optimal level now. 

Go the whole hog and plasticlay the innards.  You'll be glad you did at this point.

John

[e.man]

I don't remember what cartridge you are using - but the definitive recommendation for something really good for a little more than USD$100 is the Denon DL-110 (at $139 list)

'System' updated.
Currently running Stanton 680 w/ Jico Shibata. 
Also have Ortofon Concorde w/ Digitrac 300SE available.
The Jico Shibata is doing double time on both TTs so one of them is going to have to run the Ortofon just for convenience.
Was thinking about Denon carts but not so sure the $100 mark would be an improvement over what i have so might stick with these. 
It seems these JVC are good enough to use much more expensive, (does that = better ?) , carts.  How far could i go ?

How about what's UNDER your JVC?  I've found what's under your deck is in almost all ways a better upgrade than a cartridge.

oh yeah Chair, how right you are.
I have changed my furniture so my components are not stacked on top of each other.  They all have a solid base to them now.  This has really helped more than i expected..

Once I found maple cutting blocks, at least 3" thick and wide and long enough to sit under my decks, I was smitten forever.
If you're using rubber bushes only between your deck and a shelf of some sort....buying a nice slab of maple cutting board for ~ $100 might make the most beneficial upgrade of all.
This is the one I have: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A-/110678127928?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c4ee3538

Postage costs to Aussie would be a ship-load for that exact item but i'm sure there's similar here somewhere.
Do you put the block directly onto the existing shelf ?

You really outta' stuff the clay inside, too, at this point. ....the clay inside really gives some sturdiness, weight and authority to the sound of your deck.  Using 5 rubber bushes as you have, buying a 3" cutting block and having sprayed the bottom board 2x....I think you're well on your way to getting your JVC to perform at an optimal level now. 
Go the whole hog and plasticlay the innards.  You'll be glad you did at this point.

Basically i still have the stock feet on it (+ a 5th ).
Now it is more safely situated I could get to the 'clay' later.  IIRC in a previous post you said just the clay makes it worse.  So i would also have to buy Vibrapods and cones.  Is that right ?

[dlaloum]

Good choices....

Been wanting to try a 680 with Jico Shibata (havn't heard a 680 in many years - had one in the late 80's)

The Ortofon Concorde is good and bad in parts...

If you have the original "HiFi" early versions weighing in at 6g - they will not balance on the QL-Y5F without a lighter Counterweight.... first problem
Second problem - some of them have adjustable overhang and some don't - the light early HiFi models I had didn't have adjustable overhang, and their overhang was set for Technics SL - which is wrong for the JVC.... so I got rid of them to new homes around Aus.
If yours is one of the heavier versions with the adjustable overhang - these problems will not exist!

I fitted my Digitrac 300SE stylus to a 1/2" mount OMB cartridge - with the additional 2.5g weight removed... the cartridge is mounted using lightweight nylon screws to a ultra lightweight (sub 7g) headshell.

The combination required that I use a lighter weight CW to balance it - but resulted in better sound. (High compliance cartridge/stylus prefers lower mass arm....)

Don't forget to cut off the little tab on the stylus to allow it to mount properly on an OM engine!

I also checked the Digitrac 300SE under a microscope at 200x - it appears identical to the OM30 in every way.... (and it definitely sounds better than the OM20 I have).

This table when properly fettled should be good right up into the couple of grand range cartridges I would have thought.... After all in today's dollars this is a $3000-$5000 turntable.... (which opens up a whole other discussion I know!)

There are plenty of good solid native Aussie hardwoods you could use.... you could also try Panzerholz - used a lot for plinths - also known as Densified wood - a search for densified wood will yield a coupl of Aussie suppliers. Every wood has differing vibrational / damping properties so a bit of research might be required - also differing vibrational environment problems can be resolved by using differing damping solutions..... in other words this type of thing is very dependent on your setup, your floor, and what sort of vibrations affect your listening room.... A recommended website for damping material properties is: http://qualia.webs.com/
Cat's Squirrel who created it has been doing some in depth analysis and measurements of differing materials - focused on plinth making - but also applicable to shelves and other applications!

With regards to the "plasticlay" - Officeworks is one of the cheapest suppliers of Plasticine - so you can easily pick it up in most major areas around Aus. (don't know where you are...) - To fill the base will take around 3.5kg - and you might want a bit spare for tuning the arm and headshells with.
(I also think that it might be a good material to use inside cartridge bodies - just a thought...)

bye for now

David

[TheChairGuy]

e.man,

Sorry fella' - i didnt realize (or remember) that you are in Oz.

Yeah, a slab of maple works fantastically. It's a hardwood, but not the densest out there so its some other combo of factors that makes it special.  Grado uses Aussie Jarrah wood for all their upper end cartridges...maybe a slab of that might be worth a try as an alternate if maple is non-native there.

Yeah, a nice Stanton with JICO is likely to be as good as a Denon DL-110.  Moving coils all have lower inductance so motor noise will be less and treble extension will be much better as resonant peaks fall well outside of the audio bands so it'll sound different tho not necessarily better.  Best looking elsewhere for upgrades.

7 or so lbs of Plasticene should improve matters now that you've sprayed the flexy bottom board and have braced it with a 5th leg to stop waffling like a speaker cone during playback.  You can diddle with feet later...but i think you've done enough so that the plasticene won't make the feedback issue worse.

While you're in OfficeWorks - take a pic for me of my Magna Cart there. I still haven't visited Oz ever - but I think I'll have to as we sell Costco there and in the 4th quarter, Bunnings. 

Thanks to you Aussies I can buy more vinyl 

[e.man]

Been wanting to try a 680 with Jico Shibata (havn't heard a 680 in many years - had one in the late 80's)
The Ortofon Concorde is good and bad in parts...
If you have the original "HiFi" early versions weighing in at 6g - they will not balance on the QL-Y5F without a lighter Counterweight.... first problem
Second problem - some of them have adjustable overhang and some don't - the light early HiFi models I had didn't have adjustable overhang, and their overhang was set for Technics SL - which is wrong for the JVC.... so I got rid of them to new homes around Aus.
If yours is one of the heavier versions with the adjustable overhang - these problems will not exist!

This TT came with an Ortofon Concorde STD.  Equal to a stylus '10' i think.  No overhang adjustment.  I have just measured it with a ruler and where my instruction says overhang should be 48mm this is 52mm.  Might explain why i remember it sounding thin and scratchy.  Maybe it wasn't as well balanced as i thought either.
Looks like the Stanton/Shibata goes on this TT then.

I fitted my Digitrac 300SE stylus to a 1/2" mount OMB cartridge - with the additional 2.5g weight removed...
The combination required that I use a lighter weight CW to balance it - but resulted in better sound. (High compliance cartridge/stylus prefers lower mass arm....)

Is this arm considered mid-high mass and preferring a low compliance cart ?

Don't forget to cut off the little tab on the stylus to allow it to mount properly on an OM engine!

Yep, got that thanks.  But worth mentioning.

I also checked the Digitrac 300SE under a microscope at 200x - it appears identical to the OM30 in every way.... (and it definitely sounds better than the OM20 I have).

I've been presuming that but it's good to know for sure.  Now i can just write OM30. Sounded better than OM20 to me too.  Mine will go on the OM body on the other TT now the JVC has claimed the MI.

This table when properly fettled should be good right up into the couple of grand range cartridges I would have thought.... After all in today's dollars this is a $3000-$5000 turntable.... (which opens up a whole other discussion I know!)

  It's what ? ? ?!!!
I think they sell for $200. 
What are some other TTs it's the equivalent of ?

There are plenty of good solid native Aussie hardwoods you could use.... you could also try Panzerholz -

mmmm.......

- Officeworks is one of the cheapest suppliers of Plasticine - so you can easily pick it up in most major areas around Aus. (don't know where you are...)

I looked about on the net and that's what i found too.  Fruity .
As per profile i am near Bega.  Far South Coast NSW.  Nearest Officeworks is 200km away in Canberra.  I wonder how much $ 4KG is in postage.

thanks for more good info.

[dlaloum]

Ahh -  I ordered my first batch of plasticine from a wholesale kindergarden supplier.... I have to see whether I can find the website again - shipping was not that expensive. (worked out about officeworks later!)

The QL-Y5F sold for between $1000 and $1500 in the early to mid 80's.... so in today's $$$....

Yes these are GREAT Value!

The Arm is a mid mass arm... but with light headshells and lighter CW's you can lower that into the lower mid category and vice versa with heavy headshells and heavier CW's into the mid-heavy range... the damping makes it real versatile...

[TheChairGuy]

Wow - AU$1000 - $1500?

I don't know the comparative value of Aussie to US Dollars 30 years ago - but the QL-Y5F probably sold for US$500 here.

I'm fairly sure it's a bit older than u think, too...somewhere there is a timeline in the library at Vinyl Engine's JVC area that lists each model and when introduced.  The Y66F was 1985, but the Y5F may have been 1981 or 80.

John

[dlaloum]

We suffer from a lack of retail competition here - as a result audio/video gear has always cost about double what it costs in the US..... even now that we have reached (and slightly passed) parity with the the US$.

My other TT (Revox B795) was a competitor to the Y5F when it came out, and they were both in some period comparo's (might have been early rather than mid 80's.... but higher end gear takes a while to trickle through the retail chain so the Y5F may have been available later here than it was in Europe or the US).

The Revox was I believe US$1000-US$1500 in the US - here it was US$2500 (I used to sell it...)

The Internet has been a huge boon to Aussie audiophiles.... and even if it does cost us $300 to import a piece of gear, it is sometimes well worth it! Better from the Uk than the US though - they have the same powerline voltage setup...

yes so the usual rule of thumb for new gear has always been to double the full retail price as an estimate of local price - and then inflate appropriately to account for exchange rate - so 3x US street price is not at all unusual.

About 3 years back I bought a set of Gallo Ref3.2's - local price AU$6500 - US Price US$2500 - see what I mean?

[TheChairGuy]

yes so the usual rule of thumb for new gear has always been to double the full retail price as an estimate of local price - and then inflate appropriately to account for exchange rate - so 3x US street price is not at all unusual.

About 3 years back I bought a set of Gallo Ref3.2's - local price AU$6500 - US Price US$2500 - see what I mean?

Wow  - no wonder the lone Costco in Melbourne (Docklands) was the biggest opening in Costco's history. 

You guys surely have never seen a retailer that works on 12% margins before 

No entity is to big too fail..adaptation to new realities in the marketplace is good for consumers....many retailers should fail so that better will arise.

When Lowe's opens there and gives Bunnings a good run - you'll ALL benefit, again.

Here's to competition and lower prices for Aussies - you've been crapped on for entirely too long  

[dlaloum]

There was a recent article supporting retailers, it pointed out that average rents here are around 17% of gross as opposed to circa 7.5% in the US....

So there may some (limited) justification..... but yes a bit more competition will do a heap of good.

[dlaloum]

Hello again - the never ending saga of the QL-Y5F continues...

I could start another thread- but this way it is all in one place...

In the silences between tracks I have been noticing a tendency to hum... not blatant, but present.

I noticed it with the Grado and more over the last couple of days with the Pickering XLZ-7500-S (low output MM).

When I bought this TT, the vendor told me he thought it needed a re-wire.

I rewired the external wires, but did not touch the tonearm wires...

My question is:

What difference would rewiring the tonearm make?
Is it worth doing?
Has anyone actually rewired one of these servo arms?

More questions come to mind - but this is a good starting point

bye for now

David

[neobop]

My question is:

What difference would rewiring the tonearm make?
Is it worth doing?
Has anyone actually rewired one of these servo arms?

More questions come to mind - but this is a good starting point

Hi David,
It might make little or no difference. You're still getting sound. Are the wires any different than they were 30 years ago?

Do you have a service manual? That might help figure out the source of the hum. Other than that, the unshielded tonearm wires coming out of the base of the arm are the logical place to start for a quick fix. If you can shield those wires and connections you might be able to reduce the hum significantly, if not eliminate it.
neo

[dlaloum]

Hi Neo,

I will give some thought to shielding those wires...

I picked up another 1.5kg of plasticine, and at some point I need to open the beast up and add it in there... and look at shielding the wires at the same time.

The other thing I have is some ESR Paper.... but not really sure where it might do any good....

Thanks for the advice

David

[Wayner]

Grab the tonearm with the motor running and move it across the playing area of a record. See if the hum changes (louder, softer). This will help determine if the hum is coming from the table's stepdown transformer. Then turn the table off and do the same thing. Did the hum go away?

Also check that connectors are secure on the cartridge connector pins on the back of the cartridge. A slightly loose connector can cause this as well.

Wayner 

[dlaloum]

Thanks Wayner

Arm position - whether on or off makes no difference whatsoever

Measured the signal with a RTA - 50Hz power hum at -90db.... I guess I should not complain too much! - although the left channel is at -95db, and I figure if the left channel is there, so should the right....

But I am fussing about a relative non-issue.

The difference between the channels bugs me, as it implies I can improve the right channel and reduce the hum by a further 5db+

bye for now

David

[dlaloum]

While I am here in JVC Land,

does anyone use a peripheral ring clamp with their JVC?

The concept appeals to me - mass in the right place (outside edge of platter) keeping the record pressed down, cleaning up the sound, also putting more mass pressing down on the top of the plinth... seems like this would work well.

But there there is space for the ring - is there enough room - the platter is quite embedded in the motor molding....

anyone have any experience with some of these? (on a JVC QL-Y ?)

thanks

David

[TheChairGuy]

David, yes, it works well on every TT I've ever tried it on...including the DD"s from JVC.

I have a middleweight copper ring from TTWeights: http://www.ttweights.com/480_gram_alloy_outer_ring.html

They seem not to offer anything anymore in copper..as the price of that commodity has really gone up the past year +. 

A periphery ring is WAY more beneficial than any center ring I've tried.  I've tried a few center rings, heavyweight, homebrew, light, clamped, plastic, rubber/vinyl composition, etc., etc., and the effects have all been modest, at best. Maybe not non-existent, but I have to strain too much to hear a benefit, personally.

The effect of the periphery is much more noticeable....flattening out inherent wow-induced warps and maybe adding mass to the outside for better speed control. It's a standard part of vinyl playback now for me...a very pleasant enhancement it's been 

John

While I am here in JVC Land,

does anyone use a peripheral ring clamp with their JVC?

The concept appeals to me - mass in the right place (outside edge of platter) keeping the record pressed down, cleaning up the sound, also putting more mass pressing down on the top of the plinth... seems like this would work well.

But there there is space for the ring - is there enough room - the platter is quite embedded in the motor molding....

anyone have any experience with some of these? (on a JVC QL-Y ?)

thanks

David

[dlaloum]

Thanks John

so now I know that the TTweights rings fit on a JVC QL series TT...

the price still is a bit steep though - and I still have to cop shipping to Australia.

There is a chinese version at almost half the price... but hard to tell whether it will fit properly.

bye for now

David