New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 50367 times.

Wayner

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #20 on: 7 Jan 2011, 08:46 pm »
John, Sony had a series of TTs that had plinths made of non-resonant, heavy material. The 2 I have, the Ps-X5 and Ps-X7 are of those designs. They both weigh about 25 pounds each and have no hollow sections.

Other then the ones you mentioned, I know of no others.

Wayner

Cheeseboy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #21 on: 7 Jan 2011, 10:26 pm »
Look to the QL5, QL8 and QL10 for the solid base.  I believe the QL50 as well but no tonearm.  The bases were veneered HDF.  I can't remember whether the QLA7 had a solid base or not. 

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #22 on: 7 Jan 2011, 10:49 pm »
Any photos? (of the naked underside?.... pants down so to speak...)

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #23 on: 7 Jan 2011, 11:30 pm »
ok ok I surrender....

What forms / brands / types of putty/clay are appropriate?

What should I look for?

Do different ones sound better/worse are some easier to work with?

Is plasticine the same as plasticlay? I have seen caulk mentioned?

(the putty/clay may give me an alternative way of supporting the cables gently too...)

thanks

David

TheChairGuy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #24 on: 8 Jan 2011, 04:34 am »
ok ok I surrender....

What forms / brands / types of putty/clay are appropriate?

What should I look for?

Do different ones sound better/worse are some easier to work with?

Is plasticine the same as plasticlay? I have seen caulk mentioned?

(the putty/clay may give me an alternative way of supporting the cables gently too...)

thanks

David

You want non-hardening modeling clay (that is, it stays soft in all temperatures...but is softest the warmer it is...tho it NEVER is runny unless it's 40 degrees hotter than Phoenix in July in your room :))

Choose whatever color you like - doesn't matter as it's inside you won't see it.  The lighter colors have less invasive coloring agent I've found...so less hard to scrub off your handle after your finished with it.  The color residue is different by brand I've found.

I've tried about 3-4 brands now and the original Plasticlay seems to be easiest to mold...but it could be entirely subjective on that point.

This is the cheapest I've found for original Plasticlay: http://www.allartsupplies.com/item.php?articleId=120

Even shipped to California from Massachusetts, buying 6-10 bricks (lbs) is cheaper than buying anything local I've found.

Here's a few shots of the clay after applied inside the venerable JVC QL-A2 (the first shot is of the inside bottom cover as you posed a question earlier on keeping the vent holes clear:








I've used rope caulk, too (Dennis and Mortite brands predominate in the hardware stores) and it works well....but it's really punishing to your skin.  The modeling clay works as well and is much gentler on your skin.

Don't get all bonkers trying to find the best sounding clay.  All modeling clay is more or less the same and what it's essentially doing is damping the plastic and wood bits to a lower frequency - which tends to improve sonic matters a lot.  You're not killing resonances, your simply moving them to a lower frequency by damping the plinth.  The bass response is staggeringly better when using plasticlay and on direct drive decks it sounds like you've implanted a CD player inside as the sometimes wimpy bass from cheaper turntables gets rock solid and sensational.

You'll be glad you done did  8) Report back with the all-too-common 'wow' report afterwards  :wink:

John

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #25 on: 8 Jan 2011, 05:56 am »
Just a thought - the Plasticlay/Plasticine is effectively an elastomer...

If I put enough in for it to press and slightly pressurise against the bottom plywood panel, I assume that this would create a very basic form of constrained layer damping.... (as well as damping the bottom panel at the same time).

Is this what you guys have been doing?

Or do you just put a layer on the bottom of the top panel of the plinth?
If it is just a layer - how thick does it need to be?
How many kg's/pounds of the stuff is needed?

thanks

David

TheChairGuy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #26 on: 8 Jan 2011, 06:00 am »
David,

You're overthinking it...and talking yourself out of it. If I can and have done, surely it takes no advance skill  :icon_lol:

Start in the corners and work your courage up.  Most hollow bodied Japanese decks take anywhere from 5-8lbs I've found.

Enjoy the process and enjoy the end result even more  :thumb:

John

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #27 on: 8 Jan 2011, 06:15 am »
How often does an adult get to play with plasticine...... :D

thanks

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #28 on: 8 Jan 2011, 02:41 pm »
Came across this... a scientific study of vibrational dynamic behaviour of plasticine....  http://www.springerlink.com/content/e8l771274017875v/

Apparently it is very effective ( has linear viscoelastic properties) for frequencies  between 100 and 3000 Hz....

So at lower and higher frequencies it is simply Mass....

The part of the article that was accessible without subscribing shows it being measured in a constrained layer setup (between two sheets of aluminium).

Bye for now

David

TheChairGuy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #29 on: 8 Jan 2011, 05:39 pm »
How often does an adult get to play with plasticine...... :D

thanks

I think I've clayed 8 tables in my life now...so more than you would think if you're struck with the disease and have a finite budget  :wink:

It's good because its heavy and when you toss it - it won't bounce back (it absorbs without reflecting).  That's the mostly unscientific basis for it and why :)

It's remarkably effective - now get to it and stop thinking so much! You can thank all of us for pushing you AFTER you've heard its positive effects.

John

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #30 on: 10 Jan 2011, 03:16 pm »
2kg of original plasticine will be heading my way tomorrow....

I need to choose the colours....

Apparently reds and blues are 0.04g/cubic cm denser than the other colours (1.71g/cm3 vs 1.75g/cm3)

Hmm might get some blue for damping inside my other TT's platter (has been planned for a while...), some red for the QL-Y5F's platter, and some lighter colours for the inside....

What colour coding sounds best..... (Red cars go faster... so will I need to adjust the red putty adjusted platter speed...?)

bye for now

David

Wayner

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #31 on: 10 Jan 2011, 04:22 pm »
Do NOT put any plasticlay on the platter. You will not get it balanced and will cause problems.

Wayner

TheChairGuy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #32 on: 10 Jan 2011, 07:21 pm »
2kg of original plasticine will be heading my way tomorrow....

I need to choose the colours....

Apparently reds and blues are 0.04g/cubic cm denser than the other colours (1.71g/cm3 vs 1.75g/cm3)

Hmm might get some blue for damping inside my other TT's platter (has been planned for a while...), some red for the QL-Y5F's platter, and some lighter colours for the inside....

What colour coding sounds best..... (Red cars go faster... so will I need to adjust the red putty adjusted platter speed...?)

bye for now

David

David,

I suspect your outside of US as you are citing metrics....so excuse the earlier link to a source in the US.

2Kg is a good start, but you should've bought 3kg to make sure you had enough.  The QL-Y5F has a pretty tall plinth to fill if memory serves me right.  It'll probably take ~6-8lbs to completely fill it.

Ditto to Wayner above....do not add clay to the platter underside.  The JVC platters on these better tables is pretty dense/heavy and the additional of clay will throw the very delicate balance out of whack.

For platter undersides, the heaviest product I might recommend would be viscoelastic, spray on damping product.  They can be found at a lot of Auto Parts places here (applied to the underbody for sound proofing and deadening).

Something like this: http://www.autobodyprep.com/product/08881

The spray is so thin and light that you're not apt to kill the delicate balance of the platter to bad at all (I have used on some very light platters to good effect....but the JVC QL-Y5F probably does not need any help)

Just make sure you use a platter mat that both damps the platter ring adequately and is a good interface with your records.  The original rubber one is good at damping, but is generally a poor interface with the record.  Like many, I have found the right fit for both needs in a turntable mat from Herbie's Audiolab Labs (a manufacturer of silicone audio accessories with a circle here on AudioCircle)

Cheers, John

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #33 on: 10 Jan 2011, 10:06 pm »
Thanks for the warnings...

I'll leave the platters alone.

I calculated what it would take to fill the plinths volume..... around 7kg

But the circuit board is substantial - and I can't put any there.... so I figured I probably would not be able to fill more than 1/3rd of the volume.

Best price I could find here for Plasticine was around $4 per 500g (close to a lb)... the link your provided was half the price - but even if they are willing to ship to Australia, the shipping will add to the cost and then there would be the two week wait.

Some of the prices I've seen are truly ridiculous, one company was selling "professional" modelling clay at $80 per kg... 10 times the price!!!

I actually haven't ordered it yet, it takes 24hrs to get an account active on this vendors website - so I can order some more if needed...

bye for now

David
I'll upload some photo's of the inside of the plinth later today so you guys can see what I am talking about.

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #34 on: 11 Jan 2011, 06:31 am »
I thought I would post the images of the inside of the Y5F....

First an overview of the interior


The main circuit board and the motor



The tonearm circuit board & base, as well as external connection/solder points
Note the aluminium shield which is folded back here - this shows it the way it was received - once I have finalised the external cabling I will (Gently!) fold the shield back over the solder points...




Power Transformer, Motor and power incoming solder points



outgoing audio solder points and shield



Close up of motor and exposed under platter moulding with edge of transformer




Note what I believe to be a ventilation hole in the plastic moulding, which lets the rising hot air exit via the platter well.

So whatever I do it has to allow air to move from the circuit board(s) and transformer through to that hole.... as well as air coming in through the holes drilled in the particleboard cover that screws over all this...

In terms of areas to "Plasticene" (does that work as verb?!)...
With reference to the first photo (overview of the whole interior)
1) Top right hand side - in front of the onearm, between plinth and circuit board - fill up the space between top of plinth and particleboard base (allowing base to compress the plasticene slightly) -  proportions roughly 6cm by 18.5cm by 4cm or 444cubic cm (by coincidence a very symmetric figure!) - 0.777 Kg

2) Space between circuit board, solder point, and tonearm - tight up to aluminium shield (estimate 14cm by 7.4cm by 4cm = 414cub cm = 0.725kg)

3) Space between Transformer, circuit board and Plinth wall (bottom left corner and center area)
4) other sides, plinth walls, odd areas

In all cases I am hoping to take the plasticene right up to the baseplate, and in the Central area between circuit board and solder points I may also embed a toilet roll core full of plasticine vertically (ie provide horizontal spread restraint - the toilet roll, to provide better vertical constrained layer damping between the particleboard and the top of the plint.

Given that I am trying to effectively fill the base with plasticene - how much room/space do I need to give the circuit board? Especially the PSU circuit heatsink?

Can I (should I?) plasticine the Motor base plate?
What about the transformer... transformers do tend to move with the frequency of the power supply (50Hz in my case) - or do I avoid it altogether and stick with the MDF/Plinth areas?

Comments / Input?

I ended up ordering 2.5kg of plasticene - of various colours so if there are left overs I can hand it to kids.... 

The two major areas will take around 1.5kg, I figured an additional 1kg would be enough for the rest....

bye for now

David

TheChairGuy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #35 on: 11 Jan 2011, 05:00 pm »

Comments / Input?

I ended up ordering 2.5kg of plasticene - of various colours so if there are left overs I can hand it to kids.... 

The two major areas will take around 1.5kg, I figured an additional 1kg would be enough for the rest....

bye for now

David

Start packing the clay in the corners and work your courage inward towards the boards and moving parts without impeding them.

2.5kg = 5.5lbs...still light.  3 or even 3.5kg would've likely been spot-on.

Even so, not sure if you'd hear the difference between completely filling it with 3.5kg and mostly filling it with 2.5kg.  You'll be pleased, either way....but do note that special attention needs to be paid to the feet on these JVC's, as wel.

Filling the mdf bodied models (like your QL-Y5F) won't completely eradicate it's feedback ills.  Despite looking rather plain, the plastic bodied ones respond more completely to the application of the clay inside - ie, they don't have feedback issues after that while the mdf bodied ones still do.

Seems a lot of stuff is pricey in Oz.  The new Costco opened in Melbourne/Docklands was the highest grossing opening week in the chains history (about 580 locations in 6 countries over 30 years) - probably 'cause Aussies tired of getting ripped off by homegrown retailers there.

John

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #36 on: 11 Jan 2011, 10:38 pm »
Nah less competition down here...

I checked cossco's prices- some things are reasonable, but lots of things are selling at normal prices.... they are making a killing.

My estimate of 2.5kg was based on estimating the volume area of the two larges areas that I can fill, mutliplying using the known density of plasticene (1.75g/cm3) - it added up to 1.7kg -  I added a bit less than another kg for the rest.

In any case I can always order more!

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #37 on: 15 Jan 2011, 02:06 am »
I thought I would document the process....

so here it is:

First I thought about the roll of plasticine / plasti-clay....

1) It adds mass (mass loading) - converts HF vibration to lower Frequencies (which are more easily damped by various mechanisms)
2) It is an elastomer - it squishes, and converts vibration to heat
3) Elastomers work most efficiently in vibration to heat conversion when constrained (Hence Constrained Layer Damping - CLD)
4) There are two primary vibrating surfaces - top and bottom of plinth - various reports on the JVC's have used damping on both surfaces (brass weights on the top, sitting the plinth on damping rubber/cork/etc... on the bottom)
5) By providing a link between the two surfaces, and doing so using a CLD under a little pressure (compress the spring...) both surfaces could be damped
6) No way of filling the plinth with plasticine as there are circuit boards that require space and ventilation - and plasticine by its nature will under pressure mold itself and change shape until all compression is effectively gone.

So I needed a way to constrain the plasticine, while filling the space between top and bottom of plinth with it......
My high tech solution involved..... Toilet roll cores



I cut them so they were between 1-2 mm shorter than the space from top to bottom (the additional space will be filled with plasticine.

Then I filled each core with Yellow (why yellow... it was the first colour out of the pack...)



I also used the cores to get a mound of plasticine into places where manual spreading would have made it difficult (close to boards, etc...)
And I positioned them in the open spaces furthest from the supporting plinth walls - ie where a spring between top and bottom plinth will provide the most damping effect. (A better long term solution might be a bunch of actual springs located where the rolls are currently, and kept inside tubes [toilet rolls?] which are immobilised used modelling clay.... )



Then I started building up the modelling clay from the plinth edges working in, and using it to immobilise the rolls....

The modelling clay was built up to be about 1mm higher than the edge of the plinth - to provide some compression when the base is put back in.


I was uncomfortable having loose modelling clay right next to the motor - where when compressed it might push into the works.... felt a lot safer with the clay constrained in the rolls:


A number of people are welcome to come out and say "I told you so"....

I ran short of modelling clay - not by much, and I don't think what I've done is inadequate, but I could have used another 500g or maybe even another Kg.






I also soldered in some captive leads (BlueJeans LC-1 low capacitance) - and measured the resulting C at around 100pf (yay finally!)

I used more modelling clay around the cables to provide support so load on the solder joints gets minimised.





On closing the plinth I had to push down quite firmly, and screw things down tightly.

The end result has the bottom fibreboard bulging a little - this shot shows the way the base was being pushed up after I screwed down the other side... this was then forcibly pushed down and screwed down. (tried to take photos showing the slight bulging but it just wasn't visible in the shots)



I also picked up several Ikea Lack tables for my new turntable rack, and have been reorganising the listening room....

Things are not done yet, as I am missing several sets of spikes - for between the Lack Tables (stacked on top of each other) and for under the TT... - I also have a collection of sorbothane hemispheres and pucks of various sizes...

So I cannot yet report on the end result...

I'm picking the spikes up on Monday so things should be up and running either Monday or Tuesday,

bye for now

David














TheChairGuy

Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #38 on: 15 Jan 2011, 04:28 am »
A mad vinyl scientist after my own heart :wink:

Looking good, but fruity, under there :lol:

Give us the rest of the story as it progresses, please, David :thumb:

John

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: New JVC QL-Y5F.... advice on setup, mods etc...
« Reply #39 on: 15 Jan 2011, 05:15 am »
I sort of had this idea that left over plasticine could be handed to kids.... (and it would be nice for them to have a range of colours...)

This may well happen when I eventually decide to add the additional Kg or so....