[Curly Woods]

Well, I've been spinning LPs for 45 years and have had many tables. Perhaps the solid surface a granite base provides, exposes the poor quality of some of the sprung tables that you have used. Because they are sprung, they have a resonance frequency.

I will continue to use my granite bass and recommend that to anyone with a table.

Wayner

Well I have been playing LP's for over 40 years, I was just saying that I was exposed to the finest turntables available for over 20+ years of that.  I did not want to start a fight Wayner, but I have the experiences with many different of the finest quality turntables ever produced and they each had their own characteristics and sounds.  Some lost their magic if they did not like the platform on which they were placed.  I never found a "one fits all" approach to work in all cases effectively.  If you have that is great.  I am just sharing what I have learned in my experiences.  I think that is the greatness of forums like this.  People should try different things and see for themselves what works best for their particular turntables.

[jsaliga]

Very interesting topic.  I suppose this all makes me a heathen because my 60lb plus SOTA Star Sapphire sits atop a Salamander Archetype rack and I have no complaints about how my table sounds.  If I did then I would do something about it.



I don't dispute the science at all or that a massive stand is superior.  But I will question whether one is necessary.  There can be no denying that audiophiles have acquired a habit of portraying very minor differences and small scale phenomena as huge.  This over-exaggeration has become built in to the discourse over the years.  Someone once told me that if I could not put a massive turntable stand on a concrete floor that I should not even be wasting my time with vinyl.  Horsehockey!  Another person at a meet I was chatting with about audio thought he would offer an unsolicited critique of my system and suggested that if I did x, y, and z that my rig would sound better.  I replied "Better than what?" 

I agree that a stable platform is important for a turntable...but I also think there are many ways to achieve the desired stability.  While what I have done with my rig might not be good enough for someone else...it is good enough for me and I am the only person that it needs to satisfy.  So I will disagree a little bit with Wayner insofar as it is a matter of preference and more specifically it is a matter of how far people are willing to go to get the sound that they want.

--Jerome

[macrojack]

Well said, Jerome.

The chemist can conclude scientifically exactly how much salt you should add to your soup and some people will faithfully follow that advice to the point of buying a scale that measures micrograms. Others will simply introduce enough salt to please their taste. Both emerge happy and well nourished. Which one used the correct approach?

[zybar]

Well said, Jerome.

The chemist can conclude scientifically exactly how much salt you should add to your soup and some people will faithfully follow that advice to the point of buying a scale that measures micrograms. Others will simply introduce enough salt to please their taste. Both emerge happy and well nourished. Which one used the correct approach?

The one whose approach doesn't lead to high blood pressure!!   

As always, there is no definitive answer and this is not a black and white issue.

These threads would go so much better if people didn't approach it as if their opinion was right and others were wrong.

George

[TheChairGuy]

This topic is denigrating into a piss-all.

Please all make efforts to elevate the topic to 'friendly banter' level once again.

Wayner - you're acting like an a-hole engineer (again!) instead of helpful/friendly associate (which I KNOW you can be). All of these guy's responses to you have been relatively respectful of your differing opinion - but, you have not responded equally.

So, cut the haughty attitude out now as it serves no purpose here. 

Thank you,

John / Facilitator

[toobluvr]

While I don't agree with his dogmatic scientific approach, and his somewhat black and white confrontational style, I think I kindof understand what Wayner is saying....kindof.

Logically and intuitively it just seems that the less vibration in the stand, the better because there will then be less vibration transmitted to the table.  On its surface, it seems this should always be the case and should hold true for any table, sprung or unsprung.

It makes no sense whatsoever to me that introducing vibration / noise into a table can actually make it sound better.  Isn't this what is happening when choosing a light table / stand for a sprung table over something like concrete or granite or butcher block?

Unless of course, the table expects to see these vibrations and is somehow designed and built to receive them, and then deal with them.   In the absence of said vibrations (say, d/t a granite platform),  maybe this construction somehow actually harms the table's performance.  Is this possible?

This is the only explanation that allows me to get my head around this concept that somehow a light and vibration-prone table can actually be good for a table, as opposed to a more sturdy and rgid one.   

Having said all this, I also realize that logic and reason often have no place  in audio-land.   I have experienced many things that don't make any sense, so I have just learned to trust my ears, and try not to speak and think in absolutes.

Just thinking aloud here.....completely unscientific musings from a layman's point of view.   

[macrojack]

Well, here's a theory. I have no engineering training but my imagination is fertile and my mind restless. Here goes:

Is it possible that, just as a tweeter cannot reproduce low frequencies, our lightweight stand cannot either? Maybe the wimpy stand works because it cannot pass low frequencies due to its lack of mass.

I'm not prepared to defend this concept because I have no idea about its validity. Just musing......

P.S. I bought my first L.P. in 1957 which makes it likelier that my guess is correct.

[Curly Woods]

Well, here's a theory. I have no engineering training but my imagination is fertile and my mind restless. Here goes:

Is it possible that, just as a tweeter cannot reproduce low frequencies, our lightweight stand cannot either? Maybe the wimpy stand works because it cannot pass low frequencies due to its lack of mass.

I'm not prepared to defend this concept because I have no idea about its validity. Just musing......

P.S. I bought my first L.P. in 1957 which makes it likelier that my guess is correct.

You are exactly right in my view.  The lightweight, but rigid stand will not allow low frequencies to affect it like a heavy stand might.  It is like a mechanical diode.   It will reject low frequency information where as a larger heavier object will load in the lowest frequencies due to its mass.  I have heard the differences in practice many times as part of a demonstration in the stores that I have worked in.  We did not dictate what the customer should hear, we simply allowed them to make their own minds up as to which worked better for a given turntable.  It is really easy to demonstrate 

[toobluvr]

How do low frequencies not effect a light weight stand?

It "rejects" them?
What does this mean?   

Does it mean a light weight stand somehow does not vibrate from LF?  If so...why is that, and why is something that has greater mass more prone to vibrations from LF.   Doesn't make sense.

I surely am confused.

[Curly Woods]

How do low frequencies not effect a light weight stand?

It "rejects" them?
What does this mean?   

Does it mean a light weight stand somehow does not vibrate from LF?  If so...why is that, and why is something that has greater mass more prone to vibrations from LF.   Doesn't make sense.

I surely am confused.

Makes perfect sense.  The lightweight object has higher resonant frequency due to its construction.  It does not resonate at a low frequency like a heavier object will.  Physics at its finest.

[toobluvr]

How do low frequencies not effect a light weight stand?

It "rejects" them?
What does this mean?   

Does it mean a light weight stand somehow does not vibrate from LF?  If so...why is that, and why is something that has greater mass more prone to vibrations from LF.   Doesn't make sense.

I surely am confused.

Makes perfect sense.  The lightweight object has higher resonant frequency due to its construction.  It does not resonate at a low frequency like a heavier object will.  Physics at its finest.

I bombed physics!
Hence, my confusion is the only thing that makes perfect sense!

 

[jsaliga]

The pragmatist in me keeps suggesting that this is not as big a problem as what it might appear to be at first glance.

Here's a quick test.  Put a record on that has good bass response.  Place a couple of fingers gently on the frame of your turntable with the record playing.  I have a pretty massive table and on a record like Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures I can most certainly feel the thump of Peter Hook's bass lines on the frame of my deck.  My SOTA is a suspended spring loaded turntable so I don't know how much of that energy is reaching the platter -- perhaps some but not all.  However, I used to own a Rega P7 mounted on the same stand.  The Rega has no damping and I did the same experiment back then and could still feel the bass thumping on the frame of the deck.  I can tell you that the Rega was a nice sounding turntable and I was not unhappy with it.  I bought the SOTA because, well because an opportunity came a long to buy one at a great price so I jumped at the chance.

If someone were to ask me "Would you rather not feel that bass thump on the frame of your table when records are playing?"....I would probably answer "Sure, who wouldn't."  If someone were say to me that my turntable would sound a lot better if I did something about it, then I would ask "Better than what?"    I am happy with the sound of my deck the way it is, so I don't perceive that I have a problem in need of a solution.  Records sound fantastic on my turntable, and that is what it's all about as far as I am concerned.

--Jerome

[Curly Woods]

The pragmatist in me keeps suggesting that this is not as big a problem as what it might appear to be at first glance.

Here's a quick test.  Put a record on that has good bass response.  Place a couple of fingers gently on the frame of your turntable with the record playing.  I have a pretty massive table and on a record like Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures I can most certainly feel the thump of Peter Hook's bass lines on the frame of my deck.  My SOTA is a suspended spring loaded turntable so I don't know how much of that energy is reaching the platter -- perhaps some but not all.  However, I used to own a Rega P7 mounted on the same stand.  The Rega has no damping and I did the same experiment back then and could still feel the bass thumping on the frame of the deck.  I can tell you that the Rega was a nice sounding turntable and I was not unhappy with it.  I bought the SOTA because, well because I an opportunity came a long to buy one at a great price so I jumped at the chance.

If someone were to ask me "Would you rather not feel that bass thump on the frame of your table when records are playing?"....I would probably answer "Sure, who wouldn't."  If someone were say to me that my turntable would sound a lot better if I did, then I would ask "Better than what?"    I am happy with the sound of my deck the way it is, so I don't perceive that I have a problem in need of a solution.  Records sound fantastic on my turntable, and that is what it's all about as far as I am concerned.

--Jerome

Amen.  If it sounds good it must be good  aa

[rcag_ils]

I agree that a stable platform is important for a turntable...but I also think there are many ways to achieve the desired stability

Well said......

I do understand what Mr. Wood's saying.......metal tends to transmitter, and wood tends to absorb and dissipate energy. In reality, there's no way that one can isolate a turntable 100% from outside interference, so just filter it out with light and rigid stand if the table is light. If the table itself is dense and heavy, it makes no sense to put it on a light weight stand, it would wobble.

[Curly Woods]

I agree that a stable platform is important for a turntable...but I also think there are many ways to achieve the desired stability

Well said......

I do understand what Mr. Wood's saying.......metal tends to transmitter, and wood tends to absorb and dissipate energy. In reality, there's no way that one can isolate a turntable 100% from outside interference, so just filter it out with light and rigid stand if the table is light. If the table itself is dense and heavy, it makes no sense to put it on a light weight stand, it would wobble.

Again you are correct.  Lightweight does not have to mean wobbly though.  My son is a mechanical engineer and as final graduation project, his team had to come up with a method to mount a building top mounted horizontal wind mill.  The teams first concern was transmission of low frequencies back into the building.  A lightweight but strong frame was designed with a Palmer suspension.  Worked extremely well!  It does not matter the application, good mechanical engineering can always work to your favor if you let it 

[Wayner]

I'm sorry if I came off a little bull-headed on this topic, but you have to understand that I get emails all the time from people wanting my opinion on turntables, cartridges, preamps, power amps, DACs and all kinds of other stuff. I shoot from the hip and try to tell it like it is. People are buying stuff on my recommendations and I feel a responsibility to them, at least to be as honest and as forthright as possible on any given topic.

That said, perhaps we can back up a little on this topic and try to think the product thru without opinions or innuendos. We know that the turntable stand has several enemies. The first is airborn soundwaves, the second is mechanically induced vibrations from the first, like structural elements in the room vibrating at resonate frequencies, and then there is the turntable itself, making it's own noise from motor and other (perhaps) rubbing vibrations. If we have a strong, ridged but light weight stand on a wobbly wooden floor, the table is going to skip. Alas, the memories of my mom and dad's 100 year old house, or worse, my first rental until that was a trailer house. Certainly, the rigid, but light weight stand will fail. To combat this, I invented (to myself), wall and ceiling mounted stands. They worked very well in preventing mechanical movements from making my record skip. But they were not really practical.

If we look at wavelengths in general, we know that the lowest wavelengths have the most power. Anyone in an earthquake area can attest to this. Now those wave lengths are hundreds of feet long and carry enormous power. Power that can crush a building. Our stereo's are not that powerful, but can be self destructive in the same way, concerning the turntable. The louder we play the system, the more wave energy enters the room, vibrating the air, the walls, the floor and even the turntable and record. Now to add to the complications, there may be materials within the room that are of a specific length to match certain low frequency wavelengths, and thus also have a resonance frequency that can produce harmonics. So we have all of this going on, the table is making it's own noise, the earth itself has a vibration and oh, my God, what is we to do?

Suppose we are sitting at the kitchen table and on top of the table we have a piece of paper and a steel bearing, like 3/8" in diameter. If we were to blow on the bearing, it probably won't move. If we blow on the paper, it will will move. If we now hit the table with our fist, the stupid piece of paper just sat their and the bearing jumped into the air. This proves in a small way that lesser mass responds to air (and airborn vibrations, while real mass responds to wave lenght transmission thru other objects. I remember reading as a kid of a speaker company that had developed a new woofer, that vibrated the speaker enclosure apart, because the mechanial strength of the enclosure was no match for the woofer.

Now to the point I'm trying to make. Airborn vibrations need to really aggravate something else in the room mechanically (because the wave length is sooo long) to make other things vibrate. You really need to have something that matches the wavelength, mechanically or it won't vibrate. Case in point is a tuning fork. It vibrates at a tone (frequency) because of it's lenght (and other mechanincal factors). With a heavy mass base, the airborn wavelenght can't offend the mass, because it doesn't have enough power and the power diminishes as the frequency goes up. And perhaps if we had a loud clap of thunder, we could perhaps witness a slight movement of the massive base, only because the rest of the house shook as well. The mass of the bass works the other way as well, draining away the noise from the table's motor as an example. John, Thechairguy has packed his JVC turntable with platiclay, which adds mass to the machine, reducing internal vibrations. He also uses a very think (and massive) butcher block to kill mechanical, room born vibrations. Plasticlay goes thud when you tap it. It turns mechanical wave lengths into heat. My granite base goes thud when you tap it, it turns mechanical energy into heat. The light weight, but rigid base stops may stop airborn vibrations, but is susceptible to mechanical movement and vibrations because it has no mass to absorb and deflect the energy.

This is why I can't recommend to anyone anything other then a mass loaded stand for their turntable.

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

There's an aritcle at the vinylengines library written by Joe Grado on the subject of turntable platform, not stand, however.

Basically, he recommended three or four springs sandwiched between two wooden blocks, the springs will dissipate any airborne, and mechanical energy into heat. It seemed like high mass was not his objective, I'll have to read it again.

Again, it is not a turntable stand, it's more like a platform sitting on the stand. I've been wanting to build something like this, but have a hard time finding the appropriate springs.

[toobluvr]

Aural Thrills Turntable Isolation Box:



Maybe this can take the place of the springs?

http://www.audio-ideas.com/backiss/winter-2004/rega-tweaks-3.html

[jrtrent]

The quote below is from Linn's setup manual.  It offers no data or controlled studies to satisfy inquiring minds, but simply offers Linn's rationale for using a light, rigid platform.  It supports Mr. Woods's earlier comment about a light support filtering out low frequency trash.  As the comments are specific to the LP12's suspended design, it does not rule out the possibility that other forms of support (e.g., high mass, spring or bladder suspensions in the isolation base, etc.) might not prove useful with other turntable designs.  I tend to trust the manufacturers/designers for recommendations for their own products.  Linn and Rega specifically state their preference for light-weight support.  When I inquired of Stanalog about an appropriate support for my WTRP, I was told it would benefit from the same kind of light and rigid support I had used with my LP12.  VPI's turntable stand is more massive and they recommend filling the leg columns with sand or zing shot.  Different designs, different solutions.

"Folk wisdom once was that a turntable should be placed
on a very massive support. The misconception is that
massive objects, because of their inertia, will best isolate
a turntable from airborne vibration from the loudspeakers.

However, although these heavy objects may move by
very small amounts, they move at very low frequencies
which will bypass the suspension of a turntable. The
turntable then responds to external, low frequency noise
such as vibration from traffic or central heating furnaces.

A lighter support tends to move at much higher frequen-
cies that can be managed by the turntable suspension,
and so do not effect the performance of the turntable.

Standard isolation bases with additional suspensions
should also be avoided. The additional suspension can
interact in an uncontrolled way with the suspension of the
turntable creating a very unstable position. For the same
reason any shaky or unstable surfaces should be avoided.
The ideal turntable support would be rigid and light-
weight. Suitable tables include some light coffee tables."

[rcag_ils]

Good info, jrtrent, but here's the link that kind of contradicts it....

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5195