[kgturner]

So I've decided to give vinyl another shot. I "tried" it out several years ago buying a used Rega P3 and Exact cartridge, using the phono input on my Denon receiver. I really didn't bother setting up the turntable all too well, so I guess you can say I never really gave it a fair shot.

I recently purchased a new VPI Scoutmaster/JMW9 Signature which will be arriving on Monday hopefully. I bought a Cambridge Audio 640P phono preamp, a Benz Micro MC20E2-L cartridge, and a Hunt anti-static brush to give the vinyl a once over before dropping the neelde. I have about 20+ albums that I've been purchasing over the past few months in anticipation of trying vinyl over again.

So, does anybody have any tips, tricks, or advice for this vinyl noob while I'm trying to tweak and set up everything for optimal performance/experience?

Kevin T

[TheChairGuy]

Go thru the 100's of pages here at The Vinyl Circle...paying particular attention to the stickies.

Ask questions when you get stuck (as we all do and have)

Vinyl is worth the effort.  I think you can be a music enthusiast/lover, but not an audiophile unless you listen or at least acknowledge vinyl's superiority musically) over CD/redbook.

The divide isn't so clearcut with the higher res formats...but CD/Redbook is mostly pleasant background music.

John

[WGH]

Michael Fremer's DVD, 21st Century Vinyl, has a video demonstration of Michael setting up a Scout. The information on the DVD would enable you to confidently setup your turntable and tweak it's settings to the max.

Wayne

[orthobiz]

Michael Fremer's DVD, 21st Century Vinyl, has a video demonstration of Michael setting up a Scout. The information on the DVD would enable you to confidently setup your turntable and tweak it's settings to the max.

Wayne

+1

Also, garage sales. I hit the motherlode today. Ask even if you don't see the records outside...basements can be good sources for vinyl.

Paul

[Mike B.]

You are off to a good start. I went to one of the local used vinyl shops yesterday. Bought three nice albums for $13 and change. I think the first thing you will notice is how much better the high frequencies are presented. And you get cool covers

[Scott F.]

Vinyl is worth the effort. 

I agree wholeheartedly...especially when it is done right.   

I think you can be a music enthusiast/lover, but not an audiophile unless you listen or at least acknowledge vinyl's superiority musically) over CD/redbook.

The divide isn't so clearcut with the higher res formats...but CD/Redbook is mostly pleasant background music.

OK John...I know ya, I love ya but I've made it my new mission in life to get you to stop saying that.

Here's the deal, and I'm serious as a heart attack about this one, climb on a plane and come to St Louis for a weekend. Plane fare is all of $350. I'll pick you up from the airport, pay for your hotel here in Pacific and also pick up your food and drink. In fact, I'll treat you to some of the best Italian food this side of the Atlantic down on the Hill (our Italian community).

While you are here, I will personally guarantee that you never look at Redbook in the same light again. I'm not talking just audiophile or remastered CDs that I'll play for you, I'm talking literally anything. When it comes to really well recorded CDs, I've got some stuff I can play that will simply melt your mind....no shit. And every bit of it is in its non-oversampled, Redbook glory.

Then once I've got your attention, I'll spin some vinyl and really start to f*ck with your head. Once I get you doing vinyl dance then I play a few select records then switch you back to the CD version of that same album then watch as you back pedal trying to figure out why the CD sounds better than the vinyl. This won't be rotten vinyl mastering at work either.

Be prepared though. This will cost you buttloads of money in the long run...and I do mean buttloads. When you get back to your system, you won't be happy with it.

This isn't a challenge. This isn't a fight. This is a friendly invite because you need to understand that Redbook is a wonderful medium when properly implemented in the right system. Oh, and you'll get to experience first hand what is meant by the words "SET magic".


John, the sweet spot awaits......

[royphil345]

You might want to rethink the phono stage... That Benz should be loaded at >500 ohms and the Cambridge won't do that. Most phono stages with fixed loading for moving coil are fixed at 100 - 150 ohms. Really, I wouldn't go into moving coil at all without having a phono stage having a decent amount of "tweak" settings... and it doesn't hurt to have a few capacitance choices for moving magnet either... Loading can make a big difference in the flatness of frequency response accross a cartridge's entire frequency range. Focus, rhythm and timing can suffer if not properly set.

The Cambridge is an excellent starter or MM phono stage. The table and cart you chose are a step up from that class IMO though and I don't think you'd be able to get the most out of them with the Cambridge. I'd be looking at least at a Jolida JD-9A or Musical Surroundings Phonomena... You might even benefit by spending a little more... particularly if there might be a cartridge upgrade down the road.

Only advice I'd have to offer besides that... Remember that setup is everything. Level the table... get your cartridge alignment and azimuth right, I've found a simple 2-point protractor always works and some easier to use protractors don't seem to work properly with some tables for some reason... start at the recommended tracking force for the cart... set anti-skate to match... tweaking both by ear a bit (and a bit can make all the difference) after that is about the only way I've found to achieve "perfection".  Same with VTA if you can adjust that... loading and capacitance... You'll get the hang of it and I think you'll find the sound of vinyl super-rewarding when you do.

Good luck!!!

[kgturner]

All the components mentioned have been purchased and are en route so rethinking the phono at this point can't be done. I never intended for the Cambridge to be my final stop in regard to phono stages, but more a starting point in my vinyl experimentation. The Cambridge will have to suffice for now. Hopefully it won't be too horrendous of a choice to get me started.

Kevin T

[analognut]

Hey Scott F-

You stated in your last paragraph:
This isn't a challenge. This isn't a fight. This is a friendly invite because you need to understand that Redbook is a wonderful medium when properly implemented in the right system. Oh, and you'll get to experience first hand what is meant by the words "SET magic"..

If what you say is true, then most people are unable to "properly implement in the right system", including myself!

I recently began making CDs from my LPs for my 2 siblings by recording at 88/24 directly from my preamp into a 32-bit digital editor using my hi-dollar Waves software. This is something I've been playing with for many years and I've gotten pretty good at it. They like Classic Rock. The sound of my CDs has so totally blown them away that they are now literally buying used LPs by the dozen and sending them to me to make CDs for them this way. The sound, for them (and myself as well) is vastly superior to the sound of a store-bought CD.

As always, in the spirit of friendly debate, my question for you is "With the average CDP that Joe Blow might own, why does the CD made from the LP have sound that would typically rate a 10/10, while in the same player a store-bought CD of that album would only rate (in my head anyway) around 3/10 to 4/10? This would include ALL of the CDs I own except for those which have been purchased in the last few years. IMO CD sound has improved a lot just recently, but it's still very flawed because dynamics are ruined as a result of using extensive limiting & compression during the mastering process. (I would suggest Spyro Gyra, Jeff Lorber, Bob James, etc, as examples of new CDs I own that suffer from this affliction).

I use a Sota Star vacuum TT, SME V arm, and have DL-103R and AT-OC9ML/II cartridges. 

[royphil345]

I don't get why we're supposed to take for granted his vinyl rig is perfectly matched, tweaked, etc... and about as good as it gets...  but it's OK for him to take for granted our digital rigs suck. Sounds kind of arrogant to me...

It's all about what people prefer in their own widely varying systems anyway... your milage may vary... and that may not be concrete proof of anything outside of your own listening room.

[Carlman]

So someone puts together a really nice system and invites a fellow audiophile to his house to hear a specific comparison.. And you disect his comments and call him arrogant? (or whatever arrogent is)

Glad you invite folks to come hear your system, Scott.  Not everyone's willing to do that and I realize how important it is every day.

-C

[mountaineagle]

I'm not sure where this thread is going!

Kevin has bought an excellent turntable...is Scott F, or anyone else for that matter, suggesting that any redbook player can sound better?

If they are, I for one am interested, as whilst I too am returning to vinyl for the very reasons expounded by TheChairGuy if I can find a DAC for my Rega Apollo or a stand alone cd player that can get anywhere near a decent turntable at least I might then want to listen to my cds (and anything else I buy on cd that I cant in future get on vinyl) which at the moment I dont and dont bang on about my system as I have listened to cd players costing thousands and the same 2 dimensionality seems to be a flaw throughout.

Greg   

[royphil345]

So someone puts together a really nice system and invites a fellow audiophile to his house to hear a specific comparison.. And you disect his comments and call him arrogant? (or whatever arrogent is)

Glad you invite folks to come hear your system, Scott.  Not everyone's willing to do that and I realize how important it is every day.

-C

His invitation wasn't out of kindness... He was saying "this is the way it is and that's that" and the invitation was 100% about PROVING SOMETHING he's really in no position to prove. The post doesn't have to be "disected" to figure that out. It's the WHOLE point. Maybe if your reading comprehension was a little better... The difference between HIS particular digital and vinyl rigs in HIS system means about squat as far as which medium is better in absolute terms. Sorry... it is arrogant to think otherwise. Particuarly when tweaking a vinyl rig is nothing short of an art form and we have to believe his set up is as good as it gets for the post to have any merit at all.

[kgturner]

Please try to stay on topic, guys. There are enough pissing contest threads about vinyl vs. digital.

Kevin T

[royphil345]

Please try to stay on topic, guys. There are enough pissing contest threads about vinyl vs. digital.

Kevin T

Says who?

Don't you think it's kind of arrogant for you to be "the decider" on that subject?... lol

I'm messing with you

It probably would be more productive for someone to tell you how to bring the resistance load of your Cambridge 640P up over 500 ohms and have a few values to experiment with. I've heard you can do it using Y adapters and RCA plugs with different values of resistors soldered across the terminals. I don't quite get how the math would work since the additional resistor would be added in parallel... series would be easy. I would think you could only reduce the load that way. But, I've read otherwise, so maybe I'm wrong. You can simply add more cable to play with capacitance...

[kgturner]

Well you're just a peach at dinner parties I bet.

Kevin T

[Scott F.]

Analognut

Hey Scott F-

If what you say is true, then most people are unable to "properly implement in the right system", including myself!

Well, as I've stated on many occasions, not every format works in every system. If you have a very resolving system, there is a good chance that an NOS DAC will sound the best in your system. If you have a fairly relaxed sounding system, there is a distinct possibility that either an upsampled DAC or SACD will sound best in your system.

This has everything to do with the balance of your system and has nothing to do with the format (NOS vs OS). This is why I said "properly implemented in the right system".

Absolute statements are simply wrong.

As always, in the spirit of friendly debate, my question for you is "With the average CDP that Joe Blow might own, why does the CD made from the LP have sound that would typically rate a 10/10, while in the same player a store-bought CD of that album would only rate (in my head anyway) around 3/10 to 4/10? This would include ALL of the CDs I own except for those which have been purchased in the last few years. IMO CD sound has improved a lot just recently, but it's still very flawed because dynamics are ruined as a result of using extensive limiting & compression during the mastering process. (I would suggest Spyro Gyra, Jeff Lorber, Bob James, etc, as examples of new CDs I own that suffer from this affliction).

Interesting. I can definitely see why people would prefer the sound of vinyl recorded at a high rez format over a store bought CD...in some cases. I've got a number of CD's, old CD's (as in 90's masterings) that sound as good as the vinyl and in some cases better. I've gone so far as to buy 4,5,6 copies of the same vinyl trying to get better sound than the CD and haven't been able to, even with white label promos. 

Here again, this comes back to absolutes. There are none. Don't get me wrong, I love vinyl. I've got 3-4k pieces. I've also got 1-1.5k CD's. I enjoy both formats. I do give the upper hand to vinyl in most cases but it doesn't hold true all the time.

Digital just like vinyl takes time, tweaking, experimentation and in most cases just plain swapping out for a different piece of gear until you find that perfect system balance. This usually involves lots of money (unless your family owns an audio store). It sucks but sometimes it is what it is.

[royphil345]

Well you're just a peach at dinner parties I bet.

Kevin T

I'm generally pretty easy-going. But, anyone who starts a pissing contest with me... or tries to tell me what I can and can't reply to on a forum they don't run... will tend to be surprised at the size of my bladder.

[Scott F.]

His invitation wasn't out of kindness...

..and you are telling me what I meant when I was the one that typed it 
....okaaaay

He was saying "this is the way it is and that's that" and the invitation was 100% about PROVING SOMETHING he's really in no position to prove. The post doesn't have to be "disected" to figure that out. It's the WHOLE point. Maybe if your reading comprehension was a little better... The difference between HIS particular analog and vinyl rigs in HIS system means about squat as far as which medium is better in absolute terms. Sorry... it is arrogant to think otherwise.

Wow dude, you're so off base its not funny....and no, I don't need to get into some sparring match with the likes of you to justify what I typed (an meant), TYVM. John knows me well enough to understand the offer is genuine and non-threatening.

[analognut]

Per kgturner's request I'm going to attempt to get this thread back on the topic!

A tweak which I use and love is one I hear wayner constantly promoting. I picked it up from him.

Use a blank disc to set anti-skating, or make one from acrylic. For me this method is waaaay cool, and is so easy to implement. Much better & easier than trying to adjust a/s by trying to listen to a track on a test record. It's also extremely accurate, and works exceptionally well with a/s mechanisms that utilize a spring-loaded dial. I start by dropping the needle in the area of the disc that would correspond to the middle of a typical LP side, then adjust for zero drift in or out. Then I drop needle in the area corresponding to the end of a side, and also at the area of the beginning of a side, and make fine adjustments until I get little or no drift in these latter 2 areas.

Using this method I believe many audiophools will discover their anti-skating adjustment does not correspond to the same setting for tracking force at all! Springs age and the tension changes, thus the need for this tweak.