[Gzerro]

I have been working to perfect the setup of my VPI Scout. It is sounding very good, but I can't seem to get rid of an occasional problem with sibilence. I have just been back into vinyl for about a year, so am still mostly a noob on these things.

It occurs consistently on certain recoreds, most frequently with female vocals. It isn't just sibilence, but what sounds like a tracking error I think? It is a loud blat and only out of the right speaker, never the left. I only have a few records where this happens, for example Billie Holiday Body & Soul on a couple of tracks (re-issue from Speakers Corner).

My suspician is an anti-skate issue, but the VPI has no adjustment. Playing with the wire does no good. I have run the test tracks on the HI-FI news test album and get just the slightest distortion in the right channel on the 2nd of the 4 tracks. Also on the 3 tracks spread across side two there is some minor distortion in the right channel on the first and last tracks.

My other setup:
Table is level.
I have tried both a MINT protractor and the VPI protractor for cartridge alignment - same results with either method.
For tracking I run around 2.2g to 2.3g on my VPI Zephyr (max of recommended is 2.2) using a digital scale, verified with the Shure balance scale.
I use a Fozgometer for Azimuth which ends up with a setting that is very close to what I could get with the mirror method of setting visually.
For VTA I have experimented with a pretty wide range of settings on Tonearm height, but no effect on the sibilence.

So my quesiton is what to do? Is this just "normal" with some records? I am pretty happy with my results otherwise.

Any suggestions or insights would be appreciated.

Tom

[neobop]

Seems like you've identified the most likely suspect.  Assuming you've done everything right, the only other things that come to mind would be a mounting screw a little loose, or a chipped or cracked diamond.   

The only thing I can think of to try, is reducing VTF to the minimum recommended and twisting the wires as much as you can.  This will reduce skating force and increase anti skating.
neo

[Gzerro]

Seems like you've identified the most likely suspect.  Assuming you've done everything right, the only other things that come to mind would be a mounting screw a little loose, or a chipped or cracked diamond.   

The only thing I can think of to try, is reducing VTF to the minimum recommended and twisting the wires as much as you can.  This will reduce skating force and increase anti skating.
neo

Thank you for the recommendation and reducing VTF. Since VPI recommends max VTF it was one parameter I never tried extensively. After quite a bit more tweaking with setup I was successful... in moving the sibilance distortion to the center of the soundstage or to both left and right speakers.

I googled around some more and found several threads about this issue and JMW-9 tonearms with a variety of different catridges, all unresolved for the most part. One poster on Audiogon went so far as to send his arm/cartridge to VPI for setup assistance and was still unable to solve the issue, although with a different cartridge.

At this point I think it is just a limitation of the JMW-9 arm, or possibly just bad pressings or groove damage on the records I am having problems with. No amount of setup tweaking seems to make any difference.

If anyone has any other ideas I would appreciate the input.

[neobop]

Tom,
What about the loud blat in the right channel, did that go away?    Odd phenomenon.  Since the right channel is the outer groove wall, hopefully it cleared up with centering.  Maybe it's just a couple of bad pressings.  Are they new? 

What is the new VTF?   
neo

[Gzerro]

Tom,
What about the loud blat in the right channel, did that go away?    Odd phenomenon.  Since the right channel is the outer groove wall, hopefully it cleared up with centering.  Maybe it's just a couple of bad pressings.  Are they new? 

What is the new VTF?   
neo

My current VTF is 1.8. With an extra twist on the cable and 1.8 VTF I am able to get through the anti-skate tests on the test record without distortion. I have tried everything from 1.8 to 2.3 VTF and the sibilance issue doesn't seem to be effected.

Maybe "blat" isn't quite right - on certain "t" "s" or "sh" vocals there will be a louder sound that is disembodied from the rest of the music. It isn't super common, but on certain records it will happen quite often. When it doesn't happen it is very noticable and takes me out of the music completely.

It happens mostly with female vocals - Billie Holiday, Joni Mitchell, Nina Simone, Caitlen Rose. It has happened on a few new pressings from Speakers Corner, Rhino and ATO on the first play, as well as on various older pressings. It usually is just a few instances over the whole record, and mostly on one or two tracks, but a couple of records it is more frequent.

I am really happy with my system other than this issue.

[robbiesurp]

I've got this same issue with a VPI Classic and a Benz Micro Ref S. Certain vocals get that disembodied sibilance from the right channel only. It's subtle, but definitely distracting when it happens. It pulls the vocal from center. I've tried all of the things you have and haven't been able to get rid of it either.

The sibilance never occurs with any other source or any instruments, only on vocals. I thought it might be the acoustics in my living room, but I can't make it happen with digital sources. I've swapped speakers and cables but the problem stays only on the right side. I'm also happy with the sound other than this issue.

[rollo]

I had a similar issue when using the Linn Arkiv cart. Drove me nuts.  I despise exaggerated sibilance with a passion. The Linn TT has little adj. capabilities. It appeared that the cart. excelled at providing high frequency info and adjusting the toe in of the speakers eliminated the issue. GONE.
   VTA is key to making sibilance on vocals sound natural instead of spitty, hyped or sizzle. For some time I thought there was no hope until Scot Markwell suggested toe in adj.
    Give it a try.


charles

[neobop]

The 10.5 has anti-skate and Gzerro seemed to fix that aspect, so where should we look?

What about fluid damping of the pivot, how does that work? 

The connection between the arm tube and its socket is now the most likely cause.  Does that mechanical connection have a means of tightening?
It's difficult to make a connection such as that 100% rigid.  I haven't messed around with one of these, so I'm at a disadvantage.  Maybe I'll take a look at my local (almost) dealer.

I don't know how speaker toe-in relates if other high quality record players or sources don't exhibit the problem.  Worth a try I guess.
neo

[Gzerro]

What about fluid damping of the pivot, how does that work? 

The connection between the arm tube and its socket is now the most likely cause.  Does that mechanical connection have a means of tightening?
It's difficult to make a connection such as that 100% rigid.  I haven't messed around with one of these, so I'm at a disadvantage.  Maybe I'll take a look at my local (almost) dealer.

I don't know how speaker toe-in relates if other high quality record players or sources don't exhibit the problem.  Worth a try I guess.
neo

Thank you for the suggestions.

The JMW-9T arm doesn't have any fluid damping mechanism or any other way to stabilize the pivot point. I am wondering if it could be a problem with resonance either in the catridge or arm?

Tonight I am thinking to try adding some additional mass at the headshell with the heavier Soundsmith thumbscrews instead of the aluminum ones I am using now. Do you think that could have any effect?

I will also try the Toe-in theory (I am skeptical but nothing to lose for testing it out).

This weekend I am hoping to have time to download Audacity and get a needledrop. That would eliminate any issues with the room or other electronics.

[Gzerro]

Thank you for the suggestions.

Tonight I am thinking to try adding some additional mass at the headshell with the heavier Soundsmith thumbscrews instead of the aluminum ones I am using now. Do you think that could have any effect?

I will also try the Toe-in theory (I am skeptical but nothing to lose for testing it out).

Just posting a follow up:

1) Adding mass (4g+) by using the brass Soundsmith thumbscrews instead of aluminum perhaps made a small improvement at best, but no significant change to the sibilance problem. It did change the overall tone quite a bit, not sure if I like it or not yet, but that is a topic for another time.

2) Various degrees of Toe-in from mild to extreme made no difference.

3) Tried the MM input on my Parasound P7 pre instead of the JC3 phono stage with no change, just ruling out more  possibilities.

[Wayner]

I have given this problem quite a bit of thought. So far, I think it's actually like 3 problems in one. The first is the lack of correct anti-skating. The stylus is riding the rail on the inner groove and slightly "stone skipping" on the outer groove. Unfortunately, the upper tenor/soprano area also seems to be a resonance frequency harmonic of the arm/cart combo, but that is maybe a guess. The third problem may be from azimuth "roll". But for this to happen, I have to ask if it seems to occur at a warped area of the record?

One of the problems with uni-pivots is the rolling of the azimuth while in play. The cartridge will bob back and forth (to the record terrain) and loose firm contact with the record groove, and since the anti-skate is lacking, that groove is the outer groove (right channel).

Soundsmith does have a cartridge that is made for the uni-pivoted VPI arm. Unfortunately it's about $1K.

Wayner

[Gzerro]

I have given this problem quite a bit of thought. So far, I think it's actually like 3 problems in one. The first is the lack of correct anti-skating. The stylus is riding the rail on the inner groove and slightly "stone skipping" on the outer groove. Unfortunately, the upper tenor/soprano area also seems to be a resonance frequency harmonic of the arm/cart combo, but that is maybe a guess. The third problem may be from azimuth "roll". But for this to happen, I have to ask if it seems to occur at a warped area of the record?

One of the problems with uni-pivots is the rolling of the azimuth while in play. The cartridge will bob back and forth (to the record terrain) and loose firm contact with the record groove, and since the anti-skate is lacking, that groove is the outer groove (right channel).

Soundsmith does have a cartridge that is made for the uni-pivoted VPI arm. Unfortunately it's about $1K.

Wayner

My anti-skate is slightly on the low side but not way off. I can get through the basic Anti-skate tests without distortion on the HiFI News record side 2 (3 tests across the record side). The "torture tests" on side one I begin to get distortion on the right side first as opposed to both channels together.

On the Azimuth "roll" most of the effected records aren't warped. It is slightly worse on the inner groves which get really flat with the VPI clamp.

The $1k Soundsmith Catridge is actually what I have (VPI Zephyr). I replaced the Grado Sonata that came with my table (used) partly because of this sibilance issue. I didn't know its history and thought it may just be a worn stylus. The Grado did the same thing, although it was actually not quite as bad as the Soundsmith. The Zephyr sounds much better than the Grado otherwise (to me, ymmv etc.).

At this point I am thinking to try an inexpensive MM cart that is known to be a great tracker just to see if that solves it.

[Wayner]

The AT440MLa would be a nice tracker.

BTW, I think that all records are warped to some degree. Some are just more obvious then others.

I might also inquire what alignment your cart is in?

Wayner

[Gzerro]

The AT440MLa would be a nice tracker.

BTW, I think that all records are warped to some degree. Some are just more obvious then others.

I might also inquire what alignment your cart is in?

Wayner

I have tried both standard Baerwald using the Mint LP protractor as well as whatever alignment the VPI protractor provides. When comparing the VPI protractor alignment results in a mm or two less overhang than the Mint.

On thing I should mention is the cantilever on the Zephyr is a degree or two from being exactly centered. I was assured this is within spec by the guys at Music Direct, but it still leaves me wondering if it is contributing to the problem. To get proper Azimuth, the catridge needs to tilt a bit (lower on the left when looking from the front).

Here is a photo.

[robbiesurp]

Hi Gzerro,

When I compare the alignment on my VPI Classic, the cart is forward in the headshell by 1-2mm with The VPI jig compared to the Mint Tractor. Are your results opposite of this?

Here is a pic of my cart aligned with the Mint Tractor showing the difference on the VPI Jig:



I've gone back and forth between the two alignments numerous times and I prefer the Mint.

[Wayner]

I myself favor the Lofgren B. I like it better because it puts the stylus out farther and of the big 3 (Baerwald, Lofgren B and Stevenson) has the lowest overall tracking distortion. I run the Lofgren B on my Technics SL1200MKII with my Grado Gold1 Longhorn and there are no artifacts at all in the area between the inner null point and the clean out groove.

This could be a solution to your problem. The one question I now have is where the test tracks on your HIFI test record were located? If it's between the null points, but you are having tracking issues after the inner null point, the location of the test tracks may not be in the right place to point to inner null point issues.

Because the record is a "spiral groove" and has a constant speed, the music becomes more and more compressed as the stylus goes thru it's travels to get to the end. Lots of music is (IMO) incorrectly sequenced, with many records having the most demanding passages at the end of the the record, where it is in the worst compression mode. What that means is simply that there is less space to put the same amount of groove data as opposed to a location at the beginning of the record.

That said, I think that the longest alingment (from pivot to stylus) alignment may help this problem out as the stylus is not getting "pinched" as much as with the shorted (pivot to stylus) alignments. Definitely, azimuth, VTA, and alignment (distance plus offset angle) are all critical to proper end of record playing.

An easy aid to proper azimuth check is to simply use a flat mirror and set the stylus on it. When viewing the cartridge and the image at the same time, the angle error between the 2 doubles (comparatively) and is a good aid to determine proper positioning during playback.



Wayner

[Gzerro]

Hi Gzerro,

When I compare the alignment on my VPI Classic, the cart is forward in the headshell by 1-2mm with The VPI jig compared to the Mint Tractor. Are your results opposite of this?

I've gone back and forth between the two alignments numerous times and I prefer the Mint.

My results with the JMW-9 arm are opposite. Using the Mint results in the stylus dropping a couple mm in front of the VPI alignment point.

Of course the two arms are different lengths, so maybe VPI is using a different geometry for the two arms? Not sure what to think on this, I have never looked at the geometry involved.

The sibilance issue remains the same regardless of the two geometries.

[Sonny]

My results with the JMW-9 arm are opposite. Using the Mint results in the stylus dropping a couple mm in front of the VPI alignment point.

Of course the two arms are different lengths, so maybe VPI is using a different geometry for the two arms? Not sure what to think on this, I have never looked at the geometry involved.

The sibilance issue remains the same regardless of the two geometries.

I concur as well.  using the VPI Jig, on a number of arms, JMW 9, 10, 10.5, they are all a mm or two longer in terms of effective length over your traditional Bearwald or Lofgren alignments.

[Gzerro]

I concur as well.  using the VPI Jig, on a number of arms, JMW 9, 10, 10.5, they are all a mm or two longer in terms of effective length over your traditional Bearwald or Lofgren alignments.

Hoping this is just my fading memory these days as I am not at my table. I will double-check tonight.

[Gzerro]

I myself favor the Lofgren B. I like it better because it puts the stylus out farther and of the big 3 (Baerwald, Lofgren B and Stevenson) has the lowest overall tracking distortion. I run the Lofgren B on my Technics SL1200MKII with my Grado Gold1 Longhorn and there are no artifacts at all in the area between the inner null point and the clean out groove.

This could be a solution to your problem. The one question I now have is where the test tracks on your HIFI test record were located? If it's between the null points, but you are having tracking issues after the inner null point, the location of the test tracks may not be in the right place to point to inner null point issues.

Because the record is a "spiral groove" and has a constant speed, the music becomes more and more compressed as the stylus goes thru it's travels to get to the end. Lots of music is (IMO) incorrectly sequenced, with many records having the most demanding passages at the end of the the record, where it is in the worst compression mode. What that means is simply that there is less space to put the same amount of groove data as opposed to a location at the beginning of the record.

That said, I think that the longest alingment (from pivot to stylus) alignment may help this problem out as the stylus is not getting "pinched" as much as with the shorted (pivot to stylus) alignments. Definitely, azimuth, VTA, and alignment (distance plus offset angle) are all critical to proper end of record playing.

An easy aid to proper azimuth check is to simply use a flat mirror and set the stylus on it. When viewing the cartridge and the image at the same time, the angle error between the 2 doubles (comparatively) and is a good aid to determine proper positioning during playback.



Wayner

Thank you for all of your thoughtful feedback. Along with the above issue with the protractor I will go over my setup again to see if I can achieve any improvement.

On the HI FI News test record there are three tracks at the beginning, middle and end of the record on side 2 that I am able to pass. On Side 1 there are 4 tracks all at the end of the record. I am able to track the first 2 cleanly. I don't believe it is expected that the 3 and 4th tracks can be played without distortion.