AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: rcag_ils on 23 Oct 2009, 01:22 am
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Could anyone tell me what do they use for turntable stand?
I am in the market for a turntable stand, since no company's making any, they make equipment rack, with the top shelf for turntable, but that's not what I want, I want a stand alone turntable stand, I don't want a wall mount neither.
If nothing else, DIY would be my last resort.
Thanks
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You could use a heavy piece of furniture like the one in the pic of my playroom. I got that for $200. It is very stout and stands about waist high. Just right. The 2 drawers are handy, to say the least.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1786 :)
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You can always get a real butcher block table. This one is on Ebay with free shipping. Search butcher block table there and you get a bunch of new and antique ones.
(http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/pattynkids/boos6.jpg)
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If you don't mind the industrial look, you can do something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16341)
It is a machinist stand and 3" thick granite surface plate. Prices have gone up a bit, but I paid less than $200 for it from Grizzly.com, including shipping.
http://grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=granite%20surface%20plate
Super heavy, super rigid. Very functional but certainly not eye candy. Lots of folks say not to use granite d/t "ringing". I never heard it myself...my unsprung table sounded great on it!
I added a few MDF shelves to it, as you can see in these photos:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1589
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An antique sewing machine stand, with or without the cabinet, makes a nice stand if it fits your decor. I used one for a TV stand for awhile. I used the stand and made a nice oak top for it with beveled edges.
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I made my own. I used two massed loaded speaker stands (about 40lbs each), constructed a platform following the instruction from "Enjoythemusic.com and on placed it on top of the speaker stands and on top of that sat a maple block. Cheap and very very effective.
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Could anyone tell me what do they use for turntable stand?
I am in the market for a turntable stand, since no company's making any, they make equipment rack, with the top shelf for turntable, but that's not what I want, I want a stand alone turntable stand, I don't want a wall mount neither.
If nothing else, DIY would be my last resort.
Thanks
Billy Bags makes a nice one. Another to look for used is a Lead Balloon from Arricie. I use an Atlantis with an isolation device between the table and the turntable.. I may replace the top plate on the Atlantis this winter with a slab of granite this winter; plus a couple other tricks I thinking about.
gary
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If you don't mind the industrial look, you can do something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16341)
It is a machinist stand and 3" thick granite surface plate. Prices have gone up a bit, but I paid less than $200 for it from Grizzly.com, including shipping.
http://grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=granite%20surface%20plate
Super heavy, super rigid. Very functional but certainly not eye candy. Lots of folks say not to use granite d/t "ringing". I never heard it myself...my unsprung table sounded great on it!
I added a few MDF shelves to it, as you can see in these photos:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1589
that's a basic surface plate stand. You can buy them from Enco or Wholesale Tool.
gary
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I like that massive butcher block idea. I was actually contemplating that before I built these (individual seismic sink sand boxes make up each shelf)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=thumb;id=9031)
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Could anyone tell me what do they use for turntable stand?
I am in the market for a turntable stand, since no company's making any, they make equipment rack, with the top shelf for turntable, but that's not what I want, I want a stand alone turntable stand, I don't want a wall mount neither.
I hadn't realized that the kind of product you want no longer exists. I have a Sound Organisation dedicated turntable stand (no longer being made) with a Neuance isolation platform (also no longer being made) replacing the original shelf. Unlike the needs of some of the responders above, my turntable works best on something light and rigid rather than something really heavy, and the Sound Organisation/Neuance combination extracts the best sound from my turntable.
In my present living quarters, I don't have room to use it, so I've gone back to putting my turntable on the top "shelf" of a cheap bricks and boards arrangement from the hardware store, but with the turntable on an isolation platform made by Custom Woodwork and Design, Inc. (a very nice, light and rigid platform, but also no longer made; they were distributed by Audiophile Systems, Ltd., when they were the Linn importer, for LP12 users who had to make do with a massive equipment support arrangement).
If you find something, let us know.
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Which turntable are you setting on top of this stand may have a bearing on the support constuction. My main table is tri-suspended and rests on a wall shelf. In the works I have a solid mount table that will sit on record cabinet with K Works Pnufeet isolation. :thumb: You can see the wall shelf on my webpage.
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Butcher block sounds interesting, but would look goofy in the living room. Old sewing machine maybe a good option, but dissembling the guts would be challenging. The reason that I don't prefer wall mount is I like to move my equipment every once in awhile, wallmounting limits that option.
I may have to DIY, I wish I could find a old lead balloon somewhere.
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Here is an example of another idea. I refinish solid wood furnature for fun, I found this little hutch at a thrift shop for 7 dollars. and refinished it with a nice dark stain. Filled it with 60 pounds of sand. My turntable platform is also filled with 60 pounds of sand. In total it is very heavy and stable and looks good
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Butcher block sounds interesting, but would look goofy in the living room.....
I guess it's a matter of taste, but if refinished nicely, BB doesn't have to look "goofy". :lol:
My DIY BB rack is in my LR and most folks compliment me on it.
See my avatar to the left.
A closer look:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16244)
More photos in my gallery here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1465
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It appears that the vertical framing is made from 80/20 and that is great build stock for many DIY'rs looking for some well engineered, solid framing to make many types of cabinets, turntable stands and even software shelves (vinyl).
Wayner
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yep, 80-20.
Many commercial racks use the same stuff, or very similar.
See Steve Blinn, Adonna, and AC member Mhconley who recently started up his own rack design / build business:
http://www.audiorak.com/
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Here are two purpose built turntable stands, each with a different approach to how things should be done.
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=4060&customer_id=PAA2480105509788ZLUCRGJPHURVMUDL (http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=4060&customer_id=PAA2480105509788ZLUCRGJPHURVMUDL)
http://www.recordplayer.com/en/turntable/stand (http://www.recordplayer.com/en/turntable/stand)
What type of floor and type of player should determine how the stand is built. The stand can have a great affect on the sound of your stereo and I would suggest just trying different approaches with things easily available before building/buying.
Light and rigid is a good one to try compared to heavy and loose (by loose I mean that joints are like normal modern furniture where rigid would be nuts and bolts or tongue and grove)
Having box like construction is never a good idea as these volumes behave with a bit of a life of their own when excited by music.
Whatever sounds best to your ears though I would always use spikes to contact the floor through carpet. :D
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toobluvr, where did you buy the vertical frame like these? They look very nice.
browntrout, I guess I could nail together something like what's in the first link, but I'll pass the Simon York stuff, lack of cash.
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IKEA Lack side table with adjustable screw in points in the bottom of each table leg . It works great and does not get any cheaper.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40104270
NB
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http://8020.net/
Been thoroughly covered in other threads.
Rather than rehash it all here, you will find all you need (and more) in these threads:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63111.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56322.0
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IKEA Lack side table with adjustable screw in points in the bottom of each table leg . It works great and does not get any cheaper.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40104270
NB
I'm no expert, but when I was investigating it for myself, the consensus seems to be that the "correct" stand depends on the table.
In general....
Sprung tables tend to prefer rigid and light, like the Ikea....while non-sprung tables like rigidity and loads of mass.
Matter of fact, during my research I came across many recs for the Lack table as a cheap and very effective stand for sprung tables.
My table is non-sprung and sounded excellent on the granite surface plate (over 100 lbs!) that I used previously, and it sounds great now on my current butcher block stand.
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I hate to disagree with you on this one, but I will. What table doesn't like sitting on top of lots of immovable mass like a hunk of granite. I have several tables that are belt drive, sprung, unsprung, direct drive and they all love a base that doesn't induce vibration into the table. You just can't go wrong with a massive TT base, of course, IMHO.
Wayner 8)
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Disagree away Wayner!
:lol:
Like I say, it's not my opinion re: sprung tables, just what I came across in my readings.
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Should point out that my IKEA Lack table w/ points sets through wall to wall carpeting on a basement concrete slab. I have found this works very well with my Nottingham Interspace, which is a non-sprung fairly heavy mass TT which is belt driven. Your results may vary, I tried heavier mass options and preferred the cheap IKEA w/ a Neuance shelf between the TT and Lack.
NB
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The other opinion I kept coming across in my research is that granite rings and should not be used under a TT.
I did not find that to be the case ....not at all!
You just gotta take all these "truisms" with a large grain of salt, and just try stuff for yourself.
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Bullshit. I worked for a company that makes the suspensions for your hard disc drive in your computer and we used vision to look at stuff under way amounts of magnification, granite was the base for all of our multi-million dollar machines.
W
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I just scanned this thread so...
did anyone suggest Mapleshade Audio?
I spoke to the owner once and he said that he has made
custom "double height" speaker stands that are good for
a turntable mount...
Paul
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The Ikea idea sounds good. I go to the local Ikea occasionally. I haven't seen the Lack stand there, but for $7.99 it has to be light. Other idea would be DIY with some 3/4" all thread, very cost effective, but would have to find a way to brace it.
By the way, all my turntables have springs.
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No bracing required with threaded rods and solid wood, or butcher block.
As an example, see the Mapleshade Sampson racks here:
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/samson2.php
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Bullshit. I worked for a company that makes the suspensions for your hard disc drive in your computer and we used vision to look at stuff under way amounts of magnification, granite was the base for all of our multi-million dollar machines.
W
Sorry Wayner, but got to agree with Toobluvr on this one. Sprung tables like the Linn, Pink Triangle, Oracle, etc. sound much better when installed on a strong, but light weight table or stand.
They just sound so much better on stands of this type. The heavy massive tables rob them of what makes them sound special. The unsprung tables do indeed need a heavy massive support structure to sound their best, as a rule. There are always exceptions, but I have many years of first hand experience with the Linn/Pink Triangle type tables and they do not like being placed on a heavy mass loaded stand that couples them to the environment at all!
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No bracing required with threaded rods and solid wood, or butcher block.
Toobluvr, this is exactly what I have in mind, but will be without the fancy brass hardware, the all thread rod will just be the zine plated stuff.
Why would the sprung turntable sound better on light stand? I thought the purpose of the stand was to isolate vibration from the table , so the heavier the better, the law of physics, no magic there, am I missing something?
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No bracing required with threaded rods and solid wood, or butcher block.
Toobluvr, this is exactly what I have in mind, but will be without the fancy brass hardware, the all thread rod will just be the zine plated stuff.
Why would the sprung turntable sound better on light stand? I thought the purpose of the stand was to isolate vibration from the table , so the heavier the better, the law of physics, no magic there, am I missing something?
You are limiting the low frequency trash from entering into the suspension through the tables feet, when they are placed on a stiff, but lightweight table or stand. The light weight sprung suspension tables rely on this as part of their design concept.
The heavy unsprung and heavy sub-based sprung tables like the SOTA's work better on massive, rigid stands, as a rule.
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The unsprung tables do indeed need a heavy massive support structure to sound their best, as a rule. There are always exceptions, but I have many years of first hand experience with the Linn/Pink Triangle type tables and they do not like being placed on a heavy mass loaded stand that couples them to the environment at all!
I agree with you about Linns needing a light, rigid platform, but some unsprung designs benefit from this, too. Rega recommended the light, rigid Sound Organisation turntable stand also, and their current owner's manual suggests a rigid, level, and light shelf or turntable support, and specifically cautions against mounting it on a heavy cabinet.
In addition to Mr. Woods point above about a light, rigid support filtering out the "low frequency trash," another theory I've read is that heavy supports store energy then release it slowly back to your deck, smearing and obscuring the excellent rhythmic properties that are the reason most people love their Regas. Rega likes supports that are like its plinths--light and rigid to quickly dissipate rather than store energy.
Of course, as Mr. Woods also said, there are other turntable designs that were designed with and benefit from higher mass supports. The idea is to find out what type of support promotes the playback qualities designed into your turntable.
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Yes the Rega is one of the exceptions for the unsprung tables, but their design is a light weight rigid plinth, so they will indeed benefit from a similar support that the Linn like tables also would. Again there will always be exceptions, but this is a pretty good rule of thumb.
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I don't post here much, but now it gives me a reason to, here has wealth of information.
My turntables collection consist of Systemdek IIX, Ariston RD11 Superieur, CJ Walker 55, Harmon Kardon 60C, Project 6.1, and a few others. That means they all should be on light and rigid stands. So any wood type night stands should work. All thread metal rod would not be a good filter.
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Well....my table has an air bladder built into it for suspension / isolation. I wonder what camp that puts it in? :o :wink:
I have always used rigid and massive, and it sounds so good to me that I have no inclination to try anything else. And that's saying something as I'm a hopeless tweeker and tube roller.
When all is said and done, I say to just trust your ears.
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Yes it all boils down to what each individual prefers. I have over 20+ years experience on high end audio retail, so I have seen about every configuration on earth at one time or another. There are many ways to skin a cat, but the engineering behind each turntable design is a little different.
In my experience the light weight tables were designed to reject low frequency, so they as a rule, like to see as little low frequency energy from stored mass that they are sitting on, as it can excite them and ruin the bass. The heavier turntables typically like to be placed on very rigid, massive supports. There will always be exceptions to these rules, but this is a good rule of thumb and a sound place to start.
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Apparently,
Sprung turntables like to have low bass garbage energy get absorbed by their bass. :lol:
Also mass stores energy (maybe as heat).
Did I tell you I have a granite bass and all kinds of TTs?
It doesn't boil down to what each person prefers, it's about science. There isn't a table in the world that wouldn't love to sit on top of an immovable surface, that doesn't vibrate in concert with each bass note played. Whether it be a little sprung AR-XA or an Empire 598 or an Empire 398 or even a Technics DD.
Wayner
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Apparently,
Sprung turntables like to have low bass garbage energy get absorbed by their bass. :lol:
Also mass stores energy (maybe as heat).
Did I tell you I have a granite bass and all kinds of TTs?
It doesn't boil down to what each person prefers, it's about science. There isn't a table in the world that wouldn't love to sit on top of an immovable surface, that doesn't vibrate in concert with each bass note played. Whether it be a little sprung AR-XA or an Empire 598 or an Empire 398 or even a Technics DD.
Wayner
As I said Wayner these are observations from over 20+ years in the high end audio business. I you do not agree that is not my issue. It has been proven over and over again to me and by me. If you don't see the logic, what can I say. Do as you wish.
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Well, I've been spinning LPs for 45 years and have had many tables. Perhaps the solid surface a granite base provides, exposes the poor quality of some of the sprung tables that you have used. Because they are sprung, they have a resonance frequency.
I will continue to use my granite bass and recommend that to anyone with a table.
Wayner
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Well, I've been spinning LPs for 45 years and have had many tables. Perhaps the solid surface a granite base provides, exposes the poor quality of some of the sprung tables that you have used. Because they are sprung, they have a resonance frequency.
I will continue to use my granite bass and recommend that to anyone with a table.
Wayner
Well I have been playing LP's for over 40 years, I was just saying that I was exposed to the finest turntables available for over 20+ years of that. I did not want to start a fight Wayner, but I have the experiences with many different of the finest quality turntables ever produced and they each had their own characteristics and sounds. Some lost their magic if they did not like the platform on which they were placed. I never found a "one fits all" approach to work in all cases effectively. If you have that is great. I am just sharing what I have learned in my experiences. I think that is the greatness of forums like this. People should try different things and see for themselves what works best for their particular turntables.
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Very interesting topic. I suppose this all makes me a heathen because my 60lb plus SOTA Star Sapphire sits atop a Salamander Archetype rack and I have no complaints about how my table sounds. If I did then I would do something about it.
(http://www.indierockfan.net/pics/Audio_system3.jpg)
I don't dispute the science at all or that a massive stand is superior. But I will question whether one is necessary. There can be no denying that audiophiles have acquired a habit of portraying very minor differences and small scale phenomena as huge. This over-exaggeration has become built in to the discourse over the years. Someone once told me that if I could not put a massive turntable stand on a concrete floor that I should not even be wasting my time with vinyl. Horsehockey! Another person at a meet I was chatting with about audio thought he would offer an unsolicited critique of my system and suggested that if I did x, y, and z that my rig would sound better. I replied "Better than what?" :lol:
I agree that a stable platform is important for a turntable...but I also think there are many ways to achieve the desired stability. While what I have done with my rig might not be good enough for someone else...it is good enough for me and I am the only person that it needs to satisfy. So I will disagree a little bit with Wayner insofar as it is a matter of preference and more specifically it is a matter of how far people are willing to go to get the sound that they want.
--Jerome
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Well said, Jerome.
The chemist can conclude scientifically exactly how much salt you should add to your soup and some people will faithfully follow that advice to the point of buying a scale that measures micrograms. Others will simply introduce enough salt to please their taste. Both emerge happy and well nourished. Which one used the correct approach?
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Well said, Jerome.
The chemist can conclude scientifically exactly how much salt you should add to your soup and some people will faithfully follow that advice to the point of buying a scale that measures micrograms. Others will simply introduce enough salt to please their taste. Both emerge happy and well nourished. Which one used the correct approach?
The one whose approach doesn't lead to high blood pressure!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
As always, there is no definitive answer and this is not a black and white issue.
These threads would go so much better if people didn't approach it as if their opinion was right and others were wrong.
George
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This topic is denigrating into a piss-all.
Please all make efforts to elevate the topic to 'friendly banter' level once again.
Wayner - you're acting like an a-hole engineer (again!) instead of helpful/friendly associate (which I KNOW you can be). All of these guy's responses to you have been relatively respectful of your differing opinion - but, you have not responded equally.
So, cut the haughty attitude out now as it serves no purpose here.
Thank you,
John / Facilitator
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While I don't agree with his dogmatic scientific approach, and his somewhat black and white confrontational style, I think I kindof understand what Wayner is saying....kindof.
Logically and intuitively it just seems that the less vibration in the stand, the better because there will then be less vibration transmitted to the table. On its surface, it seems this should always be the case and should hold true for any table, sprung or unsprung.
It makes no sense whatsoever to me that introducing vibration / noise into a table can actually make it sound better. Isn't this what is happening when choosing a light table / stand for a sprung table over something like concrete or granite or butcher block?
Unless of course, the table expects to see these vibrations and is somehow designed and built to receive them, and then deal with them. In the absence of said vibrations (say, d/t a granite platform), maybe this construction somehow actually harms the table's performance. Is this possible?
This is the only explanation that allows me to get my head around this concept that somehow a light and vibration-prone table can actually be good for a table, as opposed to a more sturdy and rgid one. :scratch:
Having said all this, I also realize that logic and reason often have no place in audio-land. I have experienced many things that don't make any sense, so I have just learned to trust my ears, and try not to speak and think in absolutes.
Just thinking aloud here.....completely unscientific musings from a layman's point of view. 8)
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Well, here's a theory. I have no engineering training but my imagination is fertile and my mind restless. Here goes:
Is it possible that, just as a tweeter cannot reproduce low frequencies, our lightweight stand cannot either? Maybe the wimpy stand works because it cannot pass low frequencies due to its lack of mass.
I'm not prepared to defend this concept because I have no idea about its validity. Just musing......
P.S. I bought my first L.P. in 1957 which makes it likelier that my guess is correct.
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Well, here's a theory. I have no engineering training but my imagination is fertile and my mind restless. Here goes:
Is it possible that, just as a tweeter cannot reproduce low frequencies, our lightweight stand cannot either? Maybe the wimpy stand works because it cannot pass low frequencies due to its lack of mass.
I'm not prepared to defend this concept because I have no idea about its validity. Just musing......
P.S. I bought my first L.P. in 1957 which makes it likelier that my guess is correct.
You are exactly right in my view. The lightweight, but rigid stand will not allow low frequencies to affect it like a heavy stand might. It is like a mechanical diode. It will reject low frequency information where as a larger heavier object will load in the lowest frequencies due to its mass. I have heard the differences in practice many times as part of a demonstration in the stores that I have worked in. We did not dictate what the customer should hear, we simply allowed them to make their own minds up as to which worked better for a given turntable. It is really easy to demonstrate :D
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How do low frequencies not effect a light weight stand?
It "rejects" them?
What does this mean?
Does it mean a light weight stand somehow does not vibrate from LF? If so...why is that, and why is something that has greater mass more prone to vibrations from LF. Doesn't make sense.
I surely am confused. :o
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How do low frequencies not effect a light weight stand?
It "rejects" them?
What does this mean?
Does it mean a light weight stand somehow does not vibrate from LF? If so...why is that, and why is something that has greater mass more prone to vibrations from LF. Doesn't make sense.
I surely am confused. :o
Makes perfect sense. The lightweight object has higher resonant frequency due to its construction. It does not resonate at a low frequency like a heavier object will. Physics at its finest.
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How do low frequencies not effect a light weight stand?
It "rejects" them?
What does this mean?
Does it mean a light weight stand somehow does not vibrate from LF? If so...why is that, and why is something that has greater mass more prone to vibrations from LF. Doesn't make sense.
I surely am confused. :o
Makes perfect sense. The lightweight object has higher resonant frequency due to its construction. It does not resonate at a low frequency like a heavier object will. Physics at its finest.
I bombed physics!
Hence, my confusion is the only thing that makes perfect sense!
:lol:
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The pragmatist in me keeps suggesting that this is not as big a problem as what it might appear to be at first glance.
Here's a quick test. Put a record on that has good bass response. Place a couple of fingers gently on the frame of your turntable with the record playing. I have a pretty massive table and on a record like Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures I can most certainly feel the thump of Peter Hook's bass lines on the frame of my deck. My SOTA is a suspended spring loaded turntable so I don't know how much of that energy is reaching the platter -- perhaps some but not all. However, I used to own a Rega P7 mounted on the same stand. The Rega has no damping and I did the same experiment back then and could still feel the bass thumping on the frame of the deck. I can tell you that the Rega was a nice sounding turntable and I was not unhappy with it. I bought the SOTA because, well because an opportunity came a long to buy one at a great price so I jumped at the chance.
If someone were to ask me "Would you rather not feel that bass thump on the frame of your table when records are playing?"....I would probably answer "Sure, who wouldn't." If someone were say to me that my turntable would sound a lot better if I did something about it, then I would ask "Better than what?" 8) I am happy with the sound of my deck the way it is, so I don't perceive that I have a problem in need of a solution. Records sound fantastic on my turntable, and that is what it's all about as far as I am concerned.
--Jerome
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The pragmatist in me keeps suggesting that this is not as big a problem as what it might appear to be at first glance.
Here's a quick test. Put a record on that has good bass response. Place a couple of fingers gently on the frame of your turntable with the record playing. I have a pretty massive table and on a record like Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures I can most certainly feel the thump of Peter Hook's bass lines on the frame of my deck. My SOTA is a suspended spring loaded turntable so I don't know how much of that energy is reaching the platter -- perhaps some but not all. However, I used to own a Rega P7 mounted on the same stand. The Rega has no damping and I did the same experiment back then and could still feel the bass thumping on the frame of the deck. I can tell you that the Rega was a nice sounding turntable and I was not unhappy with it. I bought the SOTA because, well because I an opportunity came a long to buy one at a great price so I jumped at the chance.
If someone were to ask me "Would you rather not feel that bass thump on the frame of your table when records are playing?"....I would probably answer "Sure, who wouldn't." If someone were say to me that my turntable would sound a lot better if I did, then I would ask "Better than what?" 8) I am happy with the sound of my deck the way it is, so I don't perceive that I have a problem in need of a solution. Records sound fantastic on my turntable, and that is what it's all about as far as I am concerned.
--Jerome
Amen. If it sounds good it must be good aa
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I agree that a stable platform is important for a turntable...but I also think there are many ways to achieve the desired stability
Well said......
I do understand what Mr. Wood's saying.......metal tends to transmitter, and wood tends to absorb and dissipate energy. In reality, there's no way that one can isolate a turntable 100% from outside interference, so just filter it out with light and rigid stand if the table is light. If the table itself is dense and heavy, it makes no sense to put it on a light weight stand, it would wobble.
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I agree that a stable platform is important for a turntable...but I also think there are many ways to achieve the desired stability
Well said......
I do understand what Mr. Wood's saying.......metal tends to transmitter, and wood tends to absorb and dissipate energy. In reality, there's no way that one can isolate a turntable 100% from outside interference, so just filter it out with light and rigid stand if the table is light. If the table itself is dense and heavy, it makes no sense to put it on a light weight stand, it would wobble.
Again you are correct. Lightweight does not have to mean wobbly though. My son is a mechanical engineer and as final graduation project, his team had to come up with a method to mount a building top mounted horizontal wind mill. The teams first concern was transmission of low frequencies back into the building. A lightweight but strong frame was designed with a Palmer suspension. Worked extremely well! It does not matter the application, good mechanical engineering can always work to your favor if you let it :wink:
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I'm sorry if I came off a little bull-headed on this topic, but you have to understand that I get emails all the time from people wanting my opinion on turntables, cartridges, preamps, power amps, DACs and all kinds of other stuff. I shoot from the hip and try to tell it like it is. People are buying stuff on my recommendations and I feel a responsibility to them, at least to be as honest and as forthright as possible on any given topic.
That said, perhaps we can back up a little on this topic and try to think the product thru without opinions or innuendos. We know that the turntable stand has several enemies. The first is airborn soundwaves, the second is mechanically induced vibrations from the first, like structural elements in the room vibrating at resonate frequencies, and then there is the turntable itself, making it's own noise from motor and other (perhaps) rubbing vibrations. If we have a strong, ridged but light weight stand on a wobbly wooden floor, the table is going to skip. Alas, the memories of my mom and dad's 100 year old house, or worse, my first rental until that was a trailer house. Certainly, the rigid, but light weight stand will fail. To combat this, I invented (to myself), wall and ceiling mounted stands. They worked very well in preventing mechanical movements from making my record skip. But they were not really practical.
If we look at wavelengths in general, we know that the lowest wavelengths have the most power. Anyone in an earthquake area can attest to this. Now those wave lengths are hundreds of feet long and carry enormous power. Power that can crush a building. Our stereo's are not that powerful, but can be self destructive in the same way, concerning the turntable. The louder we play the system, the more wave energy enters the room, vibrating the air, the walls, the floor and even the turntable and record. Now to add to the complications, there may be materials within the room that are of a specific length to match certain low frequency wavelengths, and thus also have a resonance frequency that can produce harmonics. So we have all of this going on, the table is making it's own noise, the earth itself has a vibration and oh, my God, what is we to do?
Suppose we are sitting at the kitchen table and on top of the table we have a piece of paper and a steel bearing, like 3/8" in diameter. If we were to blow on the bearing, it probably won't move. If we blow on the paper, it will will move. If we now hit the table with our fist, the stupid piece of paper just sat their and the bearing jumped into the air. This proves in a small way that lesser mass responds to air (and airborn vibrations, while real mass responds to wave lenght transmission thru other objects. I remember reading as a kid of a speaker company that had developed a new woofer, that vibrated the speaker enclosure apart, because the mechanial strength of the enclosure was no match for the woofer.
Now to the point I'm trying to make. Airborn vibrations need to really aggravate something else in the room mechanically (because the wave length is sooo long) to make other things vibrate. You really need to have something that matches the wavelength, mechanically or it won't vibrate. Case in point is a tuning fork. It vibrates at a tone (frequency) because of it's lenght (and other mechanincal factors). With a heavy mass base, the airborn wavelenght can't offend the mass, because it doesn't have enough power and the power diminishes as the frequency goes up. And perhaps if we had a loud clap of thunder, we could perhaps witness a slight movement of the massive base, only because the rest of the house shook as well. The mass of the bass works the other way as well, draining away the noise from the table's motor as an example. John, Thechairguy has packed his JVC turntable with platiclay, which adds mass to the machine, reducing internal vibrations. He also uses a very think (and massive) butcher block to kill mechanical, room born vibrations. Plasticlay goes thud when you tap it. It turns mechanical wave lengths into heat. My granite base goes thud when you tap it, it turns mechanical energy into heat. The light weight, but rigid base stops may stop airborn vibrations, but is susceptible to mechanical movement and vibrations because it has no mass to absorb and deflect the energy.
This is why I can't recommend to anyone anything other then a mass loaded stand for their turntable.
Wayner
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There's an aritcle at the vinylengines library written by Joe Grado on the subject of turntable platform, not stand, however.
Basically, he recommended three or four springs sandwiched between two wooden blocks, the springs will dissipate any airborne, and mechanical energy into heat. It seemed like high mass was not his objective, I'll have to read it again.
Again, it is not a turntable stand, it's more like a platform sitting on the stand. I've been wanting to build something like this, but have a hard time finding the appropriate springs.
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Aural Thrills Turntable Isolation Box:
(http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/analog-sources/graphics/rega-tweaks-box.jpg)
Maybe this can take the place of the springs?
http://www.audio-ideas.com/backiss/winter-2004/rega-tweaks-3.html
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The quote below is from Linn's setup manual. It offers no data or controlled studies to satisfy inquiring minds, but simply offers Linn's rationale for using a light, rigid platform. It supports Mr. Woods's earlier comment about a light support filtering out low frequency trash. As the comments are specific to the LP12's suspended design, it does not rule out the possibility that other forms of support (e.g., high mass, spring or bladder suspensions in the isolation base, etc.) might not prove useful with other turntable designs. I tend to trust the manufacturers/designers for recommendations for their own products. Linn and Rega specifically state their preference for light-weight support. When I inquired of Stanalog about an appropriate support for my WTRP, I was told it would benefit from the same kind of light and rigid support I had used with my LP12. VPI's turntable stand is more massive and they recommend filling the leg columns with sand or zing shot. Different designs, different solutions.
"Folk wisdom once was that a turntable should be placed
on a very massive support. The misconception is that
massive objects, because of their inertia, will best isolate
a turntable from airborne vibration from the loudspeakers.
However, although these heavy objects may move by
very small amounts, they move at very low frequencies
which will bypass the suspension of a turntable. The
turntable then responds to external, low frequency noise
such as vibration from traffic or central heating furnaces.
A lighter support tends to move at much higher frequen-
cies that can be managed by the turntable suspension,
and so do not effect the performance of the turntable.
Standard isolation bases with additional suspensions
should also be avoided. The additional suspension can
interact in an uncontrolled way with the suspension of the
turntable creating a very unstable position. For the same
reason any shaky or unstable surfaces should be avoided.
The ideal turntable support would be rigid and light-
weight. Suitable tables include some light coffee tables."
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Good info, jrtrent, but here's the link that kind of contradicts it....
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5195
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Good info, jrtrent, but here's the link that kind of contradicts it....
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5195
I would not want any additional suspension under a turntable, personally. I feel that the table needs to be stable to allow the cartridge to trace the grooves without undue influence. I prefer to have a rigid platform for any table to work from rather than to add another variable to the mix. But this is simply my opinion and everyone can and will have their own.
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There is far from a concensus on this subject and credible opinion can be found on either side of the topic. I don't find this surprising at all.
--Jerome
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To quote a part of your post Wayner...
"Suppose we are sitting at the kitchen table and on top of the table we have a piece of paper and a steel bearing, like 3/8" in diameter. If we were to blow on the bearing, it probably won't move. If we blow on the paper, it will will move. If we now hit the table with our fist, the stupid piece of paper just sat their and the bearing jumped into the air. This proves in a small way that lesser mass responds to air (and airborn vibrations, while real mass responds to wave lenght transmission thru other objects."
This does not prove what you say. The reason the paper might stay still (as in move with the table) is to do with it's shape (air pressure over a relativley large surface area keeping it pressed against the table when the table moves upwards) and lack of rigidity and texture (providing a good amount of surface friction with the table top) not it's weight. The reason the bearing moves is also because of it's shape and the fact that it is hard. Hard things do not tend to deform rather transmit energy through themselves into something else or move carrying that energy with them.
..........and before someone says it, I don't think you are stupid. :icon_lol:
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Good info, jrtrent, but here's the link that kind of contradicts it....
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5195
You will always find disagreements!
Talk to two audiophiles and you'll get three different opinions!
:lol:
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^
+1
--Jerome
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Here is my DIY Turntable stand, Right now I like the results I am getting. Sand in the Drawer ( about 60 pounds) sand in the Sandbox (about 60 pounds) The sand box floats on 5 raquets balls. I did it this way for rigidity with a little side to side motion. What does everybody think am I going about this the wrong way? Open for criticism. I am using a project debut III, the intro table
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20785)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18322)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18307)
Thanks
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the massive vs lightweight support for turntables issue may be compared to how earthquakes affect the surrounding areas, depending on the geography. tho rare, a future earthquake at the new madrid, mo fault will (and has) generated energy felt much farther away than those along the more well-known california faults. this is similar to why a massive turntable stand can be excited by low frequencies much more than a light rigid stand - the land around new madrid is much more rigid than what's around the california faults.
http://www.essortment.com/all/newmadrideart_pvm.htm
doug s.
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Here is my DIY Turntable stand, Right now I like the results I am getting. Sand in the Drawer ( about 60 pounds) sand in the Sandbox (about 60 pounds) The sand box floats on 5 raquets balls. I did it this way for rigidity with a little side to side motion. What does everybody think am I going about this the wrong way? Open for criticism. I am using a project debut III, the intro table
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20785)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18322)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18307)
Thanks
what are you doing wrong? your isolation set-up looks fantastic! :thumb: seems it is worthy of a better turntable! :lol:
doug s.
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To quote a part of your post Wayner...
"Suppose we are sitting at the kitchen table and on top of the table we have a piece of paper and a steel bearing, like 3/8" in diameter. If we were to blow on the bearing, it probably won't move. If we blow on the paper, it will will move. If we now hit the table with our fist, the stupid piece of paper just sat their and the bearing jumped into the air. This proves in a small way that lesser mass responds to air (and airborn vibrations, while real mass responds to wave lenght transmission thru other objects."
This does not prove what you say. The reason the paper might stay still (as in move with the table) is to do with it's shape (air pressure over a relativley large surface area keeping it pressed against the table when the table moves upwards) and lack of rigidity and texture (providing a good amount of surface friction with the table top) not it's weight. The reason the bearing moves is also because of it's shape and the fact that it is hard. Hard things do not tend to deform rather transmit energy through themselves into something else or move carrying that energy with them.
..........and before someone says it, I don't think you are stupid. :icon_lol:
You missed my point completely. As the frequency goes up, the effect on mass diminishes (from airborn vibrations) and as the frequency goes down, the effect on mass increases (ala, the earthquake point). However, unless you have enough energy to move (as example) a 60 lb piece of granite or undertowogt's cool 60 lb sandbox, the effect is moot. It can't move it because it doesn't have enough power (as say, from a pair of speakers).
Wayner
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I don't know enough about the nature of air to solid transmision, I assume there is always a percentage that is reflected and a percentage that is absorbed and probably some that goes through without doing much.
A point I would like to add is that the stand does not have to move at all to transmit the energy into the turntable. As in the metal ball in the middle of Newtons Cradle.
The speed at which energy can enter and leave the stand/object is really the only thing we can alter (and perhaps the way it behaves at certain frequencies) and thankfully whether it is appealing to the eye. :D
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Good info, jrtrent, but here's the link that kind of contradicts it....
Interesting series of papers, though I don't know that it contradicts the points raised by Linn; it's just another approach to the problem. Maybe Linn read Grado's paper, because in 1991 they introduced the Trampolin baseboard, which had damping feet specifically designed for use when the LP12 had to be sited on heavy furniture. Like the earlier Custom Woodwork and Design isolation platform (just a light, rigid board with leveling feet to decouple the turntable from the mass of the furniture), it was only needed when circumstances forced you into a compromised turntable placement. One thing both Linn and the Grado article agree on is the need for a springy support such as the Trampolin or the arrangement described by Grado to be tuned to the specific turntable you're putting it under; it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.
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Objects need mass and length that are sympathetic to wave lengths to start to vibrate (at resonance frequencies, or orders of). While some of my examples were piss poor at getting my point across, I'll try it from this angle. If we look at frequences (octives) thru our hearing range, they would be:
20
40
80
160
320
640
1280
2560
5120
10240
20480
Now we know that the speed of sound (as a standard with a specific air density, air temp) to be at 1,125 feet per second. Now we can figure out the length of each of those frequency's wavelength. So:
20 = 56.25 feet
40 = 28.13 feet
80 = 14.06 feet
160 = 7.03 feet
320 = 3.51 feet
640 = 1.75 feet
1280 = 10.54 inches
2560 = 5.27 inches
5120 = 2.63 inches
10240 = 1.38 inches
20480 = .69 inches
Now if we have a turntable stand that is 24" x 24" x 48", we can see that wavelengths around 320 and up will be frequencies that will be sympathetic to our table dimensions. However, most of those frequencies, especially the higher frequencies, have lost power. Now here is where the problem comes in to being. What happens if we are in a room that is 24 x 16 x 8? It looks like a 50 hz bass note is going to fit nicely into the room. It may find a resonance frequency, where this energy is exploited, and create a vibrating node. This vibration will affect things that are in contact with it. Therefore, if we have a light stand (even tho it's ridgid), it may vibrate if it doesn't have enough mass to absorb the energy. If you have ever had a picture hanging on the wall that would buzz on certain bass notes, it really wasn't the picture vibrating from the bass note, it was the wall the picture was hanging on that made the picture vibrate, because the wall's length was sympathetic to the wavelength, perhaps hit it's resonance frequency(s) and vibrated like a mad man.
Wayner :D
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Wayner - I see nothing wrong with your thinking. It is intuitive and you provide arguments and examples that seem credible.
Perhaps it would help this discussion if we differentiate between physical influences like a structural vibration that carries into the stand through physical transmission and airborne vibrations that might excite the turntable stand by resonating it at whatever frequency its design leaves vulnerable.
Complete physical isolation will not prevent airborne vibrations from causing some or all of the arm/table parts from singing along in sympathy to 72 hz. Mass has no bearing in this instance.
And would it indeed be possible that mass can work against us in certain instances? A five pound battering ram will not likely knock a door down whereas a 5,000 lb. ram would take the door down with no resistance.
Likewise, if our 5,000 lb. turntable stand vibrates in response to low frequency energy, it will ram the turntable it supports. A five pound stand can vibrate in the same way with indiscernible consequences.
Again, I am approaching this with no training, just imagination. Does my theory make any sense?
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macrojack,
I agree with you. If we had our table on the worlds largest immovable object, the table could still (and does) vibrate. I think that's the trick to the whole thing, is that it is not just a simple equation, but rather a series of attempts to neutralize vibrations. Frank likes plasticaly (and so do I) as it goes thud when you throw it at something. That is why some folks put the clay in their TT base (or on the outside, like John TCG), turning that unwanted energy into heat. The table I built (ARMod) has an interior cavity in the body that is filled with plasticlay and then sealed. My stand alone motor also has a cavity filled with clay to kill some of the motor vibrations. My granite base does the rest.
Wayner :D
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So could it be said that one approach resists or suppresses external forces and the other attempts to redirect them, a la martial arts? The Aikido Stand?
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If a component is the same length as a frequency's wavelength, and it's light enough, and not damped properly, it will vibrate at that frequency (thru the air). The other vibrations will come via connected components via mechanical connection. The floor board was 28.13" long and vibrated like a bastard when the frequency (with sufficient volume) hit 40hz. The leg of the TT stand was on that board.
These are the same nodes that cause speaker placement problems. Put the speaker in a position where the nodes can amplify and create resonance, now we have more fun trying to suppress those nodes. It is about math and some of these kinds of things can be solved with proper speaker positioning, even in bad rooms. One formula that I found from my lighting career was the .29 times factor. This was a great number to stop lots of vibrations from turning into resonances and their wonderful cousins, the harmonic frequencies. So for example if you have a room that's 16 x 20 feet, take 16 x .29 (convert to inches) that would be 4.64 feet. That means along the 16 foot wall, your speaker in that direction should be 4.64 feet from the end wall. The other wall is 20 feet so that figures out to be 5.8 feet from the outer wall, giving you a distance of 8.4 between speakers. This is also another reason I like the speakers along the long wall, not the short wall, cause then they are too close together, and I like to hear "stereo". This configuration is supposed to keep lots of wavelengths from fitting into a room and also squelch any of their also unwanted harmonics.
Wayner