[KnowTalent]

Do you plan to evaluate the Sabre32 Ultra DAC for future products?

A BCD player (with onboard volume control)...straight into a 4BSST2 would be a sweet setup

[werd]

That would be really interesting to hear that in the  BDA.... dont want the volume control though. 

[James Tanner]

Do you plan to evaluate the Sabre32 Ultra DAC for future products?

A BCD player (with onboard volume control)...straight into a 4BSST2 would be a sweet setup

Hi,

Yes we have looked at them in the past and they are very good and may again but as I have said before most of the DAC's out there perform very well indeed within the digtal domain. We have found it is largely the power supplies, ground plains, isolation issues, impedance optimization etc. and the analog sections around them that makes the larger difference when it comes to performance.

james

[James Tanner]

Do you plan to evaluate the Sabre32 Ultra DAC for future products?

A BCD player (with onboard volume control)...straight into a 4BSST2 would be a sweet setup

Remember that you do not want to adjust volume in the digital mode because of lost of resolution isssues.  So a BCD-1 with an analog output stage would be the same as adding a preamp section within the BCD-1 and the cost would be much more of course.

[werd]

Hi,

Yes we have looked at them in the past and they are very good and may again but as I have said before most of the DAC's out there preform very well indeed within the digtal domain. We have found it is largely the power supplys, ground plains, isolation issues, impedance optimization etc. and the analog sections around them that makes the larger difference when it comes to performance.

james

i would still like to hear that dac. Upsampled to 32 bit would be interesting.... especially a 96khz hirez recording..

[James Tanner]

I think you have to be careful - just because a higher number is used does not necessarily mean better performance

james

[werd]

I think you have to be careful - just because a higher number is used does not necessarily mean better performance

james

Yes, but in your dac and with the 32 bit analogue waveform output, i am sure it would sound better or different on hirez.

[James Tanner]

Yes, but in your dac and with the 32 bit analogue waveform output, i am sure it would sound better or different on hirez.

I guess what I am saying is that is not always the case and be careful because sometimes stressing the technology can make things worse.

james

[Napalm]

Someone please remind me when did ESS become the leader in quality audio. Last time I heard about them it was cca. Windows 3.1 and 95 and they were doing chipsets for cheap audio cards and winmodems (those cheap software-driven modems that never properly worked). Do a google search for "ESS chipset" and you'll find plenty of horror stories (you don't even need to include words like "issue", "problem" or "bug" in the search.....).

OTOH Crystal doesn't have a flawless reputation either, I'm quite puzzled that Bryston picked them.

Nap. 

[vegasdave]

Wolfson is a good brand, I believe.

[srb]

Someone please remind me when did ESS become the leader in quality audio.

Apparently when they came out with the Sabre series DAC chips.
 
Many circuit designers (Bryston, Audio by Van Alstine, Eastern Electric, Wyred 4 Sound, dB Audio Labs) will tell you that proper digital circuit layout, high quality analog output stage, power supply and quality components make much more difference than the selection of the DAC chip itself.
 
How else could one explain all the accolades that dB Audio Labs has received on their Tranquility USB DAC when it is based on an older, cheaper non-oversampling DAC chip?
 
Steve

[Napalm]

Werd, get this one:

http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24_present.htm

Nap.

[Elizabeth]

Question to James Tanner: I wonder why the loss of resolution in an upsampled stream. Say the  input is the 16 bit and you make it 24 bit with placeholders. then you lower the volume digitally. all the info would start sliding into those placeholder bits? and you wouldn't lose any resolution, unless your DA just wasn't capable of resolving those last 8 bits anyway.
So what is wrong with my thinking?

[werd]

Werd, get this one:

http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24_present.htm

Nap.

How much is it, you know?

[James Tanner]

Question to James Tanner: I wonder why the loss of resolution in an upsampled stream. Say the  input is the 16 bit and you make it 24 bit with placeholders. then you lower the volume digitally. all the info would start sliding into those placeholder bits? and you wouldn't lose any resolution, unless your DA just wasn't capable of resolving those last 8 bits anyway.
So what is wrong with my thinking?

Hi Liz,

That ones over my head - will ask engineering.

james

[Napalm]

How much is it, you know?

It's modular so it depends. Check some dealer's list price and try to figure out the price with just 2 D/A channels (I guess you don't need A/D).

Nap.

[Napalm]

Hi Liz,

That ones over my head - will ask engineering.

james

You get lower S/N ratio when you use only the last bits. That's why Bryston engineers are padding from 16 to 24 in the first place - to utilize the DAC's full output swing.

Nap.

[95Dyna]

Someone please remind me when did ESS become the leader in quality audio. Last time I heard about them it was cca. Windows 3.1 and 95 and they were doing chipsets for cheap audio cards and winmodems (those cheap software-driven modems that never properly worked). Do a google search for "ESS chipset" and you'll find plenty of horror stories (you don't even need to include words like "issue", "problem" or "bug" in the search.....).

OTOH Crystal doesn't have a flawless reputation either, I'm quite puzzled that Bryston picked them.

Nap. 

Talk to the designers at McIntosh.  The MCD500 uses the ESS Sabre 32 bit DAC.  This player has gotten universal top notch reviews by both publications, websites and users alike.  This is not recent news as the 500 has been out for almost 2 years now.  I auditioned it and was very impressed.  The Esoteric X-50 uses a 32 bit DAC abeit another make I can't recall at the moment.

The Esoteric X-05 is a higher performer than the X-50 from a sound quality standpoint and it uses a 24 bit Cirrus Logic DAC so James makes a good point about the surrounds being as important to the sound as the DAC itself.

[KnowTalent]

Remember that you do not want to adjust volume in the digital mode because of lost of resolution isssues.  So a BCD-1 with an analog output stage would be the same as adding a preamp section within the BCD-1 and the cost would be much more of course.

James,

but since the Sabre is 32 bit architecture I wouldn't think you'd lose any noticeable resolution???
Reason I say this is my experience with Wadia where a 24 bit DAC drops 1 bit per 6db attenuation...
say you start with 22 bit, that would leave you (22-16) 6 bits or 6 bit x 6 db per bit = 36 db attenuation...before you start nudging into the 16 bit resolution.
If one was to start with 32 bit digital it just "seems" you'd have a larger range of attenuation before you ran into placeholder issues????


FWIW, Esoteric is now employing digital volume control using a 32 bit AKM DAC

[James Tanner]

James,

but since the Sabre is 32 bit architecture I wouldn't think you'd lose any noticeable resolution???
Reason I say this is my experience with Wadia where a 24 bit DAC drops 1 bit per 6db attenuation...
say you start with 22 bit, that would leave you (22-16) 6 bits or 6 bit x 6 db per bit = 36 db attenuation...before you start nudging into the 16 bit resolution.
If one was to start with 32 bit digital it just "seems" you'd have a larger range of attenuation before you ran into placeholder issues????


FWIW, Esoteric is now employing digital volume control using a 32 bit AKM DAC

Hi - no disagreement from me at all.  It is just that I am cautioning people not to latch on to one specfic aspect in a design and assume that solves all the problems.  It is always a collection of aspects dealth with with an overall view to the design goals.  When we first started Bryston it was Slew Rate - highest number wins! - obviously there is more to quality amp design than slew rate.

just my $00.02

james