the future belongs to the hard disk drive!

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alexone

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the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« on: 28 May 2008, 03:54 am »

 james,

 what do you think about that?

 is Bryston investigating?


 al.

KeithA

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #1 on: 28 May 2008, 09:26 am »

 james,

 what do you think about that?

 is Bryston investigating?


 al.

Alex

I suspect that the role that the external DAC will fill :D It's not a concern as to what media the music is stored on, but be the D-A option for whatever is input into it.

Keith

James Tanner

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #2 on: 28 May 2008, 09:44 am »

 james,

 what do you think about that?

 is Bryston investigating?


 al.

Hi Alex,

Yes we have certainly discussed it.  Here is an email I received from one of my dealers with an interesting perspective on this.  It has been edited to prevent any negativity towards current products on the market.


Hi James,

Product of the future is a streamer, not a server.
 
Here's the deal. You own a computer at home for your family stuff. You have Itunes for your music. You have your computer properly backed up. You have lots of memory. You have Wifi spewing around your house. The above is the typical customer. Now, you load your CDs into your computer- into your Itunes at lossless WAV file.
 
Now you're ready for the streamer. Set it up with some computereze and, your computer sends- in wireless (or wired if you prefer) all the music on your computer to this streamer. It has a read-out on the front - for accessing the music. All it is doing is accessing the music an streaming it to a quality DAC.

There are so many computer  users out there TODAY, right now, loading all their music onto their computers. They borrow CDs from their friends and the library. They load zillions to their computer. Now they want to access them. Most of these guys use a crappy system to throw them around the house like a KKKKKK (digital out- so you can play it through your surround receiver!) or MMMMMMM- built in crappy DAC.

This customer profile is NOT going to buy a high end CD player because they are using their computer as the server. They think of CD players as yesterday's news. The just aren't going down the CD player path.
 
Servers store the music on internal computers. So every time they hiccup or break, the data needs to be reloaded and it's absolutely 911. I have sold servers from xxxxxxx and yyyyyyyy. They all eventually break and the customer is pissed- all that time and effort loading discs has to be done again. Even in the best of circumstances these servers have drop outs and farts. Don't go there.
 
The vvvvvvvv products are streamers. But they don't use Itunes- the world standard for categorizing music!. Make no mistake, Itunes runs the world.
 
I mention this cuz I'm not a computer guy. I don't mind getting up to play CDs. But I talk to customers every day and see this is what they're doing with their music.




« Last Edit: 28 May 2008, 03:34 pm by James Tanner »

KeithA

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #3 on: 28 May 2008, 10:18 am »

Hi Alex,

Yes we have certainly discussed it.  Here is an email I recieved from one of my dealers with an interesting perspective on this.  It has been edited to prevent any negativity towards current products on the market.


Hi James,

Product of the future is a streamer, not a server.
 
Here's the deal. You own a computer at home for your family stuff. You have Itunes for your music. You have your computer properly backed up. You have lots of memory. You have Wifi spewing around your house. The above is the typical customer. Now, you load your CDs into your computer- into your Itunes at lossless WAV file.
 
Now you're ready for the streamer. Set it up with some computereze and, your computer sends- in wireless (or wired if you prefer) all the music on your computer to this streamer. It has a read-out on the front - for accessing the music. All it is doing is accessing the music an streaming it to a quality DAC.

There are so many computer  users out there TODAY, right now, loading all their music onto their computers. They borrow CDs from their friends and the library. They load zillions to their computer. Now they want to access them. Most of these guys use a crappy system to throw them around the house like a KKKKKK (digital out- so you can play it through your surround receiver!) or MMMMMMM- built in crappy DAC.

This customer profile is NOT going to buy a high end CD player because they are using their computer as the server. They think of CD players as yesterday's news. The just aren't going down the CD player path.
 
Servers store the music on internal computers. So every time they hiccup or break, the data needs to be reloaded and it's absolutely 911. I have sold servers from xxxxxxx and yyyyyyyy. They all eventually break and the customer is pissed- all that time and effort loading discs has to be done again. Even in the best of circumstances these servers have drop outs and farts. Don't go there.
 
The vvvvvvvv products are streamers. But they don't use Itunes- the world standard for categorizing music!. Make no mistake, Itunes runs the world.
 
I mention this cuz I'm not a computer guy. I don't mind getting up to play CDs. But I talk to customers every day and see this is what they're doing with their music.






James

I agree with this assessment, somewhat. I wouldn't likely buy a hard-disk based player as well, for the very reasons cited above. However, I do store my music on my computer. Well, I actually store it on a 1 terrabyte external hard drive that has USD & Firewire connectivity. You can pick up a 1 terrabyte drive of great quality for less than $300 these days. So, if I store all 1,200 of my CDs (and that's uncompressed PCM files) I can simply buy another drive to back up my entire collection for pennies per album.

As alluded to in another thread, I'm not an iTunes guy. I still buy CDs and rip them to my computer and keep the CD as a non-valotile backup, if needed. I will never use iTunes as long as I can avoid it. I tried it as a way to manage my music library (Squeezebox has that option), but didn't like it at all. So, as long as CDs still exist, I will buy them, rip them and store them.

I have been using a streamer for almost 6 months now and have never had a dropout. Using the SP1.7 as a DAC, I can't tell the difference between CDs and the streamer.

So I guess where I would diverge from your dealers perspective is that as I also see 'music servers' with internal drives as a no-no, the advent of high-quality mega-storage USD external drives for great prices still makes the hard disk as a great alternative for the future. Even if I get away from the streamer, there are products eeking into the market now that a basically a CD transport that has USB imputs. You can use the CD transport to feed an external DAC (like the BDA-1, which is why I see it as great) or it will accomodate USB hard drives (which are also fed to the external DAC) and the CD transport in the unit allows the CDs in your collection to be ripped to the external hard drives.

I see nothing wrong with having a standalone CD player, but I see my future having both a CD player and a mass storage device using external storage of some type.

Keith


WerTicus

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #4 on: 28 May 2008, 10:19 am »
future? welcome to 5 years ago :P

run a raid 5 storage system for some redundancy,  and use open source software.

I've ripped all my DVDAudio discs as well as cd's and wouldn't touch itunes with a 40 foot pole. (or anything else with DRM that isnt easy to break)

JLM

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #5 on: 28 May 2008, 10:29 am »
I tried going PC/SB a couple of years ago.  But constant PC/network/SB hiccups that took weeks to figure out and extensive help from an ACer just to initially setup (I'm not computer savy) forced me back to using a CDP.  And it had other disadvantages: hardware complexity, lack of portability, and inability to simply play a CD (without ripping).

Once the whole music server has gotten to the friendliness/price/quality/stability stage of, say HT, I'll be back.  For now, its a computer geek's territory to enjoy.

KeithA

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #6 on: 28 May 2008, 11:16 am »

Once the whole music server has gotten to the friendliness/price/quality/stability stage of, say HT, I'll be back.  For now, its a computer geek's territory to enjoy.

If I could aviod the WiFi Squeezebox, i would. However, I am running it now with no real glitches. However, for me the perfect answer would be eith a CD player with a USD/FireWire input that could accomodate external hard drives. However, the hard drives would need to be kept in another room, or something, to keep the 'whirling noise' down in the listening room. That's one thing I like about the Squeezebox, the computer is in an adjacent room...so no hard drive noise.

Or, the other option is a CD transport that can accomodate external hard drives as well (and will then feed a DAC like the BDA-1). The product I alluded to in my earlier post was I believe called the PS Audio Memory Transport and was recently unveiled at one of the audio shows. It may not be perfect, but it looks like a step in the right direction for what i see as being the right fit for me. It would simply take a little tweaking to get the hard drives in a separate room, but for me that's doable. However, for now, the WiFi is working great until something better comes along in a masss storage system....that doesn't cost an arm or a leg :wink:

Keith

James Tanner

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #7 on: 28 May 2008, 11:39 am »
Hi Guys,

Correct me if I am wrong but this is where I see the External DAC as being a perfect product to integrate all these different digital sources into one state of the art playback center.

In Ontario we have a major cable company that provides digital 48K PCM or Dolby out from its cable box on a SPDIF COAX. On the weekend I did some listening tests with the Bryston External DAC and the PCM digital stereo cable feed - WOW I could not believe how great some of my favorite FM music stations sounded!

james
« Last Edit: 28 May 2008, 11:50 am by James Tanner »

KeithA

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #8 on: 28 May 2008, 12:01 pm »
Hi Guys,

Correct me if I am wrong but this is where I see the External DAC as being a perfect product to integrate all these different digital sources into one state of the art playback center.

james

James

That's exactly what I alluded to in my posts above. That's where I saw Bryston's vision for the BDA-1. However, even the BDA-1 would need some sort of player/transport that has the hard drives feeding it. Don't get me wrong, I see that as a great solution and leaves the uncertainty of future formats to someone else but the DAC is always there to accept the 'digital stream' from these external devices.

But I also see benefit of a CD player (or some sort of transport) with say, a USB or FireWire input, that can accept data from an external hard drive as beneficial as well. This type of device can be a straight up CD transport (feeding the BDA-1) or can be a music server (with 100% external hard drives) that can be used as a mass storage device as well (feeding the BDA-1), and the CD transport can be used to rip music to the hard drives. I believe this is what the new PS audio product I alluded to above is designed to do.

Keith

James Tanner

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #9 on: 28 May 2008, 12:09 pm »
Hi Guys,

Correct me if I am wrong but this is where I see the External DAC as being a perfect product to integrate all these different digital sources into one state of the art playback center.

james

James

That's exactly what I alluded to in my posts above. That's where I saw Bryston's vision for the BDA-1. However, even the BDA-1 would need some sort of player/transport that has the hard drives feeding it. Don't get me wrong, I see that as a great solution and leaves the uncertainty of future formats to someone else but the DAC is always there to accept the 'digital stream' from these external devices.

But I also see benefit of a CD player (or some sort of transport) with say, a USB or FireWire input, that can accept data from an external hard drive as beneficial as well. This type of device can be a straight up CD transport (feeding the BDA-1) or can be a music server (with 100% external hard drives) that can be used as a mass storage device as well (feeding the BDA-1), and the CD transport can be used to rip music to the hard drives. I believe this is what the new PS audio product I alluded to above is designed to do.

Keith

Hi Keith,

Yes I see where your coming from. 

The advantage I see though in the Bryston BDA-1 External DAC is that all of these digital feed devices would benefit from the Bryston technology in our DAC. I think the CD Player proves Brystons ability to extract a state of the art performance from a digital source is exceptional.

james

KeithA

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #10 on: 28 May 2008, 12:37 pm »
Hi Guys,

Correct me if I am wrong but this is where I see the External DAC as being a perfect product to integrate all these different digital sources into one state of the art playback center.

james

James

That's exactly what I alluded to in my posts above. That's where I saw Bryston's vision for the BDA-1. However, even the BDA-1 would need some sort of player/transport that has the hard drives feeding it. Don't get me wrong, I see that as a great solution and leaves the uncertainty of future formats to someone else but the DAC is always there to accept the 'digital stream' from these external devices.

But I also see benefit of a CD player (or some sort of transport) with say, a USB or FireWire input, that can accept data from an external hard drive as beneficial as well. This type of device can be a straight up CD transport (feeding the BDA-1) or can be a music server (with 100% external hard drives) that can be used as a mass storage device as well (feeding the BDA-1), and the CD transport can be used to rip music to the hard drives. I believe this is what the new PS audio product I alluded to above is designed to do.

Keith

Hi Keith,

Yes I see where your coming from. 

The advantage I see though in the Bryston BDA-1 External DAC is that all of these digital feed devices would benefit from the Bryston technology in our DAC. I think the CD Player proves Brystons ability to extract a state of the art performance from a digital source is exceptional.

james


I think we are saying basically the same thing :D Even at this point, I would buy the BDA-1 and use my existing CD player as a transport. But I would also look to buy some 3rd party server-type transport (that was 100% based on USB/FireWire external hard drive storage) to feed the BDA-1 as well (or keep using my Squeezebox Duet). Especially since early indications seem to point to the fact that there is no performance given up by the BDA-1 fed digitally from external sources compared to it's one-box BCD-1 brother.

My problem in the past with CD players has been that it's always the motor that spins the CD that gives out or the display. So, with an external DAC and transport, you have the option of buying a new transport (which can sometimes be cheaper than getting an older unit fixed) to feed the DAC. Whereas if a one-box player (with no digital input) ever loses a motor or display, both the transport and DAC are in limbo. So, I've always felt that if separates can keep up with the best one-box players...I'd take the separates first. But that's just me :wink:

Keith

ecramer

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #11 on: 28 May 2008, 12:50 pm »
This is a very interesting topic. I have not gone to a music sever of one type or other while i do run a wireless network in the house. What i would like to see is the Bryston DAC with computer and digital inputs and wireless capabilities (up gradable either software or a card). I feel that the ipod generation will forever be enamored with mp3 why i want the best sound possible. i see the the future for a digital receiver with a world class DAC and a lcd touch screen remote to feed directly to my amps

ED

Wayner

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2008, 12:53 pm »
"Borrowing" your buddie's CDs to put on your hard drive is theft.
I'll bet everyone that uses a computer has a significant portion of their library that has been obtained illegally.
I think its funny how you talk about it so openly on a public forum.

Wayner

mcgsxr

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2008, 01:01 pm »
I have been using an exclusively PC based system now for more than 3 years.  Very happy with the modded Slim Devices unit I have, and have had no significant issues with it, nor the hard drives that the music all lives on.  I do back up the music on outboard drives.

I think the Bryston approach here, to have a good external DAC is a valid one, no need to fight to stay current with the various streamers etc, just live where the D hits A right before the system.

ecramer

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2008, 01:01 pm »
Ive got 2500 cd's burnt to my computer as mp3 for use on my zen player and i have all the cd's right here.

"Borrowing" your buddie's CDs to put on your hard drive is theft.
I'll bet everyone that uses a computer has a significant portion of their library that has been obtained illegally.
I think its funny how you talk about it so openly on a public forum.

Wayner

KeithA

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2008, 01:14 pm »
"Borrowing" your buddie's CDs to put on your hard drive is theft.
I'll bet everyone that uses a computer has a significant portion of their library that has been obtained illegally.
I think its funny how you talk about it so openly on a public forum.

Wayner

I'm not sure where the borrowing a buddies CDs issue came up :? All of the music on my computer are from the 1,200 or so CDs that stream the back wall of my room. I'm sure some people do it, but not all. Regardless of whether one uses a computer or not to store the music, people can make copies of CDs as well. I'm sure a lot (not all) of people are doing this as well.

Keith

mcullinan

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2008, 01:22 pm »
Ive got 2500 cd's burnt to my computer as mp3 for use on my zen player and i have all the cd's right here.

"Borrowing" your buddie's CDs to put on your hard drive is theft.
I'll bet everyone that uses a computer has a significant portion of their library that has been obtained illegally.
I think its funny how you talk about it so openly on a public forum.

Wayner
Ed,
You should definitely check out a Squeezebox or Sonos. You would be able to access all of your music and  not move from your couch. When you say mp3s I suppose they are lossy. On a good system, like yours you would definitely notice a sound quality difference between that and lossless.
Mike

Tim S

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #17 on: 28 May 2008, 01:33 pm »
"Borrowing" your buddie's CDs to put on your hard drive is theft.
I'll bet everyone that uses a computer has a significant portion of their library that has been obtained illegally.
I think its funny how you talk about it so openly on a public forum.

Wayner

How much do you want to bet? (Read as "how much do you want to transfer to my Paypal account?"  :icon_twisted: ) Just like the other two guys who replied above, all of the CD's I have on my computer were purchased legally and I still have all the disks.

There is certainly a lot of passing around of digital music that happens these days but I don't really think it is primarily done by the people who set up high end digital music servers. . .

Tim


Wayner

Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2008, 02:27 pm »
If I may quote:

"There are so many computer  users out there TODAY, right now, loading all their music onto their computers. They borrow CDs from their friends and the library. They load zillions to their computer".

I'm not accusing anyone of this, but the action of stealing music is certainly rampant. If you have burned your own music to your own hard drive, I applaud you. If you stole your music, you are creating a break down in the music/playback industry. Yes, I think that retail prices for CDs are out of this world as costs to manufacture are estimated at $.25 per CD.

I really think that most highend audiophools first thought when hearing about computer based music system is "stolen music".
I'm glad you all came back with a sound rebuttal.

Wayner

ecramer

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Re: the future belongs to the hard disk drive!
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2008, 03:48 pm »
This is way off topic could we get it split off and maybe  shifted over to audio central as the topic is interesting i think Wayner is right with the younger generation but i also think they dispose of it just as quick when it goes out of fashion. which don't make it right. lets get this moved and discuss it some more.

ED