[funkmonkey]

You fellas might find this useful.

It's a very nice interactive frequency chart. Keep an eye on the "Ear Sensitivity" chart on the lower left while hovering the mouse over the larger chart. Also, click that same small chart to see where our ears are weakest compared to test equipment.


Hope that helps.
Bob

Very cool chart Bob.  Lots of information there, and very well put together.  I've seen a lot of the information scattered across the web and in separate charts and graphs...  nice to have it all in one, and the mouse over feature is pretty cool.  I tried to imbed it here but had no luck, the link will have to suffice.  Even my wife said "wow, what's that? It's really colorful"  before she started to snore when I told her what the chart contained. 

[funkmonkey]

Greg, I believe the first time you heard Salk speakers was when I demo'ed my Song Towers for you about a year and a half ago. At that time we discussed your room and you and I agreed that you could spend a boat load of money on speakers and yet still not get the sound you were craving because of room issues. It sounds to me as though you are coming to terms with that fundamental truth.

To me, a speaker system includes both the loudspeaker and the room. Unfortunately, when you commit to a speaker like the HT3, you also commit to optimizing the room. You simply cannot do one with out the other and expect to realize the HT3's capabilities.

I will also comment that my Song Towers are at their best at volume levels which are not sustainable for long periods of time due to neighbor issues. The Song Towers like to be cranked up: at lower volumes they sound very good, but not great. Again, my system, my room: YMMV.

Hey David, good to see you back around these parts.  You are right, I have always known that to get the best out of my speakers I need to treat the room.  I do think that the issue that I posted about has mainly to do with the limits of human hearing though, and less to do with room interaction though I am sure that that is a contributing factor as well.

[DMurphy]

I dunno.  The more I think about this, the more puzzled I am.  Treating the room would help, I guess, though I'm not sure in which direction, and the ear is less sensitive to low frequencies than midband frequencies.  But I've got to admit--the last complaint or observation I ever expected to receive about the HT3's was that the bass is too polite under normal listening conditions.  I just can't imagine the HT3's sounding thin in the bass in any room under any conditions.  Too much--yes.  Small rooms, and rooms with specific dimensions, will get overloaded.   But not underloaded.  So I'm officially in the perplexed corner. 

[funkmonkey]

Dennis, any lack of bass that I am experiencing is strictly at LOW volumes.  Not at all close to what I would consider normal listening levels, if I had my way.  My experience matches almost exactly with the charts that can be found in the link that Jim posted to the article about the "loudness button," and the chart that Bob posted.  I am perfectly happy with the bass response when I am able to turn it up a little, it is by no means shy once I get past a certain volume.  I was hesitant to even post anything about this because it is really kind of silly for me to be picky about the bass response at extremely polite volume.  Get out of the corner, I'm sold on the limitations of my hearing.

Cheers,
Greg

[DMurphy]

Dennis, any lack of bass that I am experiencing is strictly at LOW volumes.  Not at all close to what I would consider normal listening levels, if I had my way.  My experience matches almost exactly with the charts that can be found in the link that Jim posted to the article about the "loudness button," and the chart that Bob posted.  I am perfectly happy with the bass response when I am able to turn it up a little, it is by no means shy once I get past a certain volume.  I was hesitant to even post anything about this because it is really kind of silly for me to be picky about the bass response at extremely polite volume.  Get out of the corner, I'm sold on the limitations of my hearing.

Cheers,
Greg

I'm not sure everyone was picking up on the context of your remarks.  All that matters is what you hear at what you consider normal listening levels.  I don't have any sound treatments in any of my listening rooms, and while I'm sure they could help,  you should be able to achieve enjoyable results in most rooms without sound treatment panels.  But there are condiditons (like oneinthepipe's listening area) where I'm sure they make the difference between acceptable and not acceptable. 

[funkmonkey]

I'm not sure everyone was picking up on the context of your remarks.  All that matters is what you hear at what you consider normal listening levels.  I don't have any sound treatments in any of my listening rooms, and while I'm sure they could help,  you should be able to achieve enjoyable results in most rooms without sound treatment panels.  But there are condiditons (like oneinthepipe's listening area) where I'm sure they make the difference between acceptable and not acceptable. 

Good point.  I went back and put that statement in bold face on the original post, so it is harder to miss.  Perhaps I should have stressed that aspect more.

What I consider normal listening levels is a couple of notches louder than what my wife considers tolerable for music that she doesn't care for... and one click of the remote below the level where I can hear the full range    She usually gets fed up and leaves the room, then I can turn it up a little more and everything is kosher.    I should add that she will not hesitate to jam out to Bon Jovi or Celine Dion and drive me from the room either. 

[PMAT]

Speakers before the house  Buy your wife flowers.

[TJHUB]

I'm not certain this issue is or is not a listening level issue.  I would be much more convinced that Funk is falling victim to room modes in the 40-50Hz region. 

I have NEVER seen a measurement from ANY room EVER (I hope you're getting my point with the use of CAPS  ) where the frequency response will be flat from 100Hz and below.  You'd have to have the perfect shaped room dimensions which I certain none of us have.  Therefore a flat response without EQ'ing or heavy room treatments is just not possible.  Low frequencies are very influenced by your room and speaker placement.

If we can establish that the frequency response below 100Hz is very uneven, then listening at lower volumes will only make the issue more apparent.  The louder the speakers are played, the less obvious the issue will potentially be, but if you know the music it should still be observable. 

Take a look at this graph of my HT2 TL's measured at my listening position (RED=RIGHT, BLUE=LEFT):



I think we can all agree that Salk doesn't produce speakers with this kind of frequency response.    As long as we can agree on this, my room has to be influencing the overall response.  While my HT2 TL's measure better in my room than any other speaker I've owned, the measured response below 100Hz is remarkably similar amongst many of the speakers and subwoofers I've measured in this room.  I can only conclude that my room is influencing the frequencies more than any other factor.

In every case, my room creates that ~105Hz dip where you can see both speaker couple to the exact level.  This has been true for any speaker I've measured in this room.  Also, in every case, I get that ~38Hz bass peak with any speaker or subwoofer I've measured in this room. 

Ever listen to some songs that sound weak in bass and others that are very strong?  If yes, these are obvious signs that your low frequency response has peaks and valleys. 

Since I have no way of EQ'ing my main speakers (and I don't want to), the only solution I've found for my issue is to run an EQ'd subwoofer.  EQ'ing low frequencies doesn't create any audible noise issues like can happen with upper frequencies, so I don't take issue with doing so.  The first time I heard my setup with an EQ'd sub, I was shocked.  No more was there this large difference between songs with little or heavy bass (sure there are some differences, but it's not like I was used to hearing).  The bass sounds much more articulate and the rest of the frequencies don't suffer from bloated bass being played.  The subwoofer blends magically to the main speakers and does not make itself noticeable at all.  And here is the all important comment: the bass sounds balanced and present even at low listening levels.

I may be off in some of my comments and observations with some of you more knowledgeable audio guys, but no matter what anyone says, I know what I hear.   

This is only my opinion and as always YMMV. 

[DMurphy]

I agree with everything you're saying.  I'm only maintaining that the HT3's should not sound bass shy under most any normal condition.  You've got one honking room peak down there around 40 Hz.  I think equalization is the only solution, as you've discovered.  Dips between 100 and 150 hz are due to floor bounce cancellation, which will always be there on any speaker unless the woofer is smack against the floor. 

[Nuance]

You both just echoed what I told funk yesterday in a PM. 

So there you have it Greg; the experts (not me) have spoken.    Now go download REW, get an SPL meter and start taking measurements. 

[TJHUB]

I agree with everything you're saying.  I'm only maintaining that the HT3's should not sound bass shy under most any normal condition.  You've got one honking room peak down there around 40 Hz.  I think equalization is the only solution, as you've discovered.  Dips between 100 and 150 hz are due to floor bounce cancellation, which will always be there on any speaker unless the woofer is smack against the floor. 

Ha Ha!  I hate those "honking" room peaks!    Although my room peak is fun for movies. 

[TJHUB]

You both just echoed what I told funk yesterday in a PM. 

So there you have it Greg; the experts (not me) have spoken.    Now go download REW, get an SPL meter and start taking measurements. 

I figured this is what you were PM'ing Greg.  It was fun to see you post this stuff. 

Anyone serious about audio should have a way to measure and understand their rooms.  REW is one of best tools EVER! 

[Philistine]

Greg, you're going to hate me for posting this but I've had my MW KWA150 for over a month now and have been deliberately keeping a low profile until I put some hours on it and I had a 36.5 in the chain.  Well the 36.5 has arrived and I've put about 500 hours on the KWA.  My system is now:

MWTP (EML 5U4G, TS 6SN7) > 36.5 (Mullard MB GZ34, 6H30 DR's) > KWA 150 >HT3's

Apart from the amp our systems are almost identical, I'm just waiting for George to send me an EML for the 36.5 and this will be last tweak 

I posted my initial impression of the KWA on the MW forum and will shortly give an update.  One of the strengths of the KWA is the bass, I almost have too much of it - this comment seems to be consistent from all owners and the 6moons review.  Not only is it like Thor's hammer at medium to high volume levels, it's also tight and punchy at low listening levels also - which is the issue you had (have)?

If you get the chance I would try and listen to one in your system, I'm impressed by its capabilities with the HT3's.

Phil

[funkmonkey]

Your right Phil, I hate you.    I can't afford Dan's amp right now, though it sure seems to be something very special.  I would then have to get a mono block to drive my center.  If I see one come up used I might bite... 

Bass issues are still there at low volumes [though not as much since I put a pair of Ken Rads in place of the TS rounds, they seem to boost the mid bass a little and sacrifice a little bit of the high end sparkle, and of course the mids are not quite as lush].  I am leaning back toward my original suspicion of it being mostly due to the recording.  I went though a bunch of stuff that is bass heavy, and then a series that I would call a little bass shy and they sounded accurate for the most part.  the rest of my issue may not be so much of a deficiency of bass at low volume as hearing a lot of reflected mids and treble.  My room has hardwoods and no treatments so I'm sure I am suffering from room interaction that accentuates the upper register, making the bass seem less abundant.  Whatever the case, I am searching for a new place to live (housing market in LA still sucks) and plan to treat the room as much as my wife will allow.  On those occasions when I can turn the volume up loud enough for everything to balance out, it is blissful.


For the record this is my current tube set:
MWTP (EML 5U4G mesh, Ken-Rad VT-231/6SN7 GT)
36.5   (1961 fat base Mullard GZ34, 6H30-DR)

I'm kind of saving the TS rounds for a better room 


Thanks for further tempting me to spend all my hard earned dollars on this hobby...   
(I want Thors Hammer!)

Looking forward to reading what else you have to say about the KWA, and any comments about the 36.5.

[audiotom]

do you have a cd only source?

a lot of current cds have the volume cranked up - compressed and much less dynamic range. When you play at low volumes that limited dynamic range reflects in hearing less low end (the phenomenon Jim suggested)

try some older - less compressed cds

more than likely the room is also a factor
speaker placement can sometimes tame that

my ht3 certainly are not bass shy - even at low volumes

[turkey]

a lot of current cds have the volume cranked up - compressed and much less dynamic range. When you play at low volumes that limited dynamic range reflects in hearing less low end (the phenomenon Jim suggested)

Large amounts of compression will increase the average volume level of the recording, and it tends to be frequency-independent.

I would suspect that, for a given SPL in your listening room, you will actually get more bass with a hyper-compressed recording than with a more normal one.

It should be easy enough to measure though, so please do let us know your results.

[strat95]

Greg,

Based on the room dimensions you gave earlier in this thread, you have your speakers set up along the long wall? Is that correct?

If that is true and if you can easily move your speakers, give this a try.

First, set up your speakers along the short wall which is 13 feet 2 inches.

Place your speakers approximately 70.5 inches in front of the short wall.  This is a measurement from the short wall to the front of the tweeter of your HT3s.  Then place each speaker approximately 43.5" from the side walls.  Again, the measurement is from each side wall to the center of the tweeter.

Note, this positioning works best for a symmetrical rectangular room.  Even if your room is not symmetrical, give this a try and let us know if you hear a difference.

Take care,

Ted

[funkmonkey]

Thanks Ted...  at a glance that looks like the Cardas method (no?).  Unfortunately, I can't use the short wall as my front wall.  All this is soon going to change because I will be in a different room.  My wife and I are looking to buy a house or at least move to a rented one.  So, a new room will be a new situation, hopefully much better.  I already have the go-ahead to treat the new room, so it should be much more even and much better than the current one.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, perhaps it is time to let this thread fade into oblivion.  I'll start a new one or resurrect this one if I have any problems with the new room.

Cheers, and thanks again,
Greg

[strat95]

Hi Greg,

Was it that obvious!!  Well if you were able to recognize that placement described as the Cardas method, and it is, then you don't need help in speaker placement.    Very sharp.

For anyone else interested, it's a good starting point.  Here is the link to George Cardas's guide to "Setting Up Speakers In A Rectangular Room".

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

Ted

[Rocket]

Hi Greg,

Can you post a picture of your room and system for us?

I have salk sound ht2's (non tl version) and the bass in my room is excellent.

Regards

Rod