AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GIK Acoustics => Topic started by: AllanS on 18 May 2022, 06:00 am
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Can lack of room treatments mask differences between amplifiers? I’m in the middle of auditioning power amps and am not hearing any appreciable difference from my current integrated. I can save a lot of money if my ears are the limiting factor but I am curious if an untreated room might mask differences.
Thanks,
Allan
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Information about the components in the system would be very helpful. What speakers, what source (Spotify, Mp3 files on a local hard drive, etc.), what DAC if any, what interconnects, room size, etc.
What amps have you compared in this system?
It's certainly conceivable that in some systems the amp is not the weakest link and differences are masked. Differences could be masked by atrocious room acoustics or aspects of the playback chain. The amps you are trying might also sound very similar.
It's impossible to hazard a guess without substantially more information.
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Thanks much for your response.
Base system
Schiit Ragnarok 2 integrated. Fully balanced XLR pre out to comparison amps
Schiit Bifrost DAC
Bluesound Vault 2i Octave Records Audiophile Masters V5 (Steaming Various TuneIn, Radio Paradise)
Spatial M4 Sapphire (approx 400 hours)
Blue Jeans Cable Belden XLR and digital coax audio interconnects
Mediabridge 12 ga 10’ speaker cables
Comparison amps: Van Alstine DVA M225 demos, PS Audio M1200 currently (40 hours)
The space is 11’x14’. Picture is taken from the back wall. Speakers are 3’ from the front wall, 6.5’ center to center, and 18” from the right side wall. The space is open to the left.
I’m hearing little difference in sound stage. I may be tone deaf but I’m not hearing any substantial tonal differences between the 3 amps which is really surprising to me.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240724)
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Absolutely the room acoustics can produce masking on a huge scale, making it tricky to hear detail. Typically the 2 biggest things you can do to change/improve the sound in the room is upgrade the speakers and treat the room, because these strategies deal with the actual sound in the room. These differences are typically FAR greater than the differences between one piece of electronic gear and another.
Not saying there's no difference between pieces of gear, clearly there are, but if we're talking about well designed gear, with low distortion and a flat frequency response, they can be hard to spot.
Also: good on you for admitting you don't hear much difference! This requires a strange amount of courage, in a way. There are a number of psychoacoustic and perception issues at play when listening, and a lot of times people don't take this into account and fall prey to things like expectation bias.
This article on my blog (http://www.gikacoustics.com/learning-to-listen-acoustics-the-listening-experience/)goes into some of the listening, psychoacoustics, and acoustics phenomena we've been discussing if that is of interest.
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Being a "speaker guy" I see the power amp's only purpose as serving the loudspeakers. All three of those listed will easily serve these loudspeakers, perhaps too easily. Being solid state they perform best at higher outputs. Unless you're a headbanger you're no doubt running them at an average of about 0.1 wpc. Having plenty of reserve is good (avoids clipping the amp and damaging the loudspeakers) and provides a commanding grip on the drivers, but you're missing the meat of the amps design intent. My loudspeakers efficiency are rated the same as your's but I run 70 watt Temple Audio mono-blocks and have plenty of reserve for an old fart. But most properly sized amps should have little impact on system performance.
What do you mean by the room being 11ft x 14ft with the left side being open?
I'm secondarily also a "room guy". Mine is 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios) in the basement (no windows), well insulated, has six GIK 244 2ft x 4ft "full range" panels at first reflection points and four GIK 244 2ft x 4ft "bass trap" panels straddling the front corners, three tall randomly filled bookcases on the side walls to act as customizable diffusors, and three carefully placed subwoofers. Frankly the "full range" panels do little good in my "ideally shaped" room but work miracles elsewhere.
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Can lack of room treatments mask differences between amplifiers? I’m in the middle of auditioning power amps and am not hearing any appreciable difference from my current integrated. I can save a lot of money if my ears are the limiting factor but I am curious if an untreated room might mask differences.
Allan, Here's my story: apx 20 yrs ago I got a windfall and bought a pair of Revel Ultima Studio speakers to replace my NHT 3.3s. At 4x the cost, I expected them to be much better, and they sounded that way at the dealership (with well-treated room). When finally they were delivered, I couldn't hear a difference and somehow realized it was the room. I sent to ASC for a treatment plan and started buying it, piece by piece. With each acoustic treatment added, I found the sound more natural, less boomy, and I was more able to detect differences and detail (though it was not detailed through added treble or edge). I have never looked back.
My current room is in the basement, with 7 ft ceiling and only 12.5 ft width. With suitable treatment, my system in that room sounds better than many I've heard in much better rooms.
So I am sold on acoustic treatment as a highly cost-effective way to improve home audio.
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Comparison amps: Van Alstine DVA M225 demos, PS Audio M1200 currently (40 hours)
I’m hearing little difference in sound stage. I may be tone deaf but I’m not hearing any substantial tonal differences between the 3 amps which is really surprising to me.
It surprised me too. I haven't heard the DVA M225 amps I did borrow the PS Audio M1200 for a week to compare to my AVA Vision Set 400 and the differences were completely obvious (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=176173.msg1856501#msg1856501). My speakers are Salk HT2-TL which have the revealing Seas and RAAL drivers so differences in electronics, wires, DACs, and between the 96kHz and 768kHz Carmen Gomes tracks (free PCM download (https://www.soundliaison.com/index.php/studio-masters/856-ray-carmen-gomes-inc)) can be heard.
The open baffle design with the bare, flat, hard surfaces look like you have a very lively, exciting room sound.
My other thought was you are going in the wrong direction with your amp choices. If you can't hear a difference between a $3398 and a $5998 amp then go cheaper. If there is no noticeable difference between your Schiit Ragnarok 2 and the comparison amps then you may be in the enviable position where changes make minimal or no difference to the sound, you have achieved nirvana and can now just listen to the music.
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The room is the bottleneck on your system. Treat it well and you'll be rewarded with much better sound. At this point, amp changes are going to be trivial vs. room changes/treatment.
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Many thanks all for your responses. Certainly a lot to consider and greatly appreciated.
This article on my blog (http://www.gikacoustics.com/learning-to-listen-acoustics-the-listening-experience/)goes into some of the listening, psychoacoustics, and acoustics phenomena we've been discussing if that is of interest.
I’m absolutely interested in the topics of acoustics and psychoacoustics. I’ve poked around some but, in a hobby where I have a lot to learn, I know the least about these topics.
I run 70 watt Temple Audio mono-blocks and have plenty of reserve for an old fart. But most properly sized amps should have little impact on system performance.
What do you mean by the room being 11ft x 14ft with the left side being open?
I may turn up the wick occasionally but really am most interested in low SPL performance. The Ragnarok @ 60/100 WPC has never been pushed hard. I certainly don’t need 1200W.
The overall room is approximately 14’ x 19’. I was originally set up with the 14’ wall as the front. In a nod to marital harmony that 14’ wall is now the right side wall. The left speaker now opens up to the remaining 8’. But as you can see in the pic the room narrows. It similarly narrows at the back wall so the remaining space is closer to 7’ x 8’.
So I am sold on acoustic treatment as a highly cost-effective way to improve home audio.
I think I knew this but wasn’t prepared for how significant acoustics can be - and/or my ears suck. Acoustic treatments aren’t as fun as gear.
My speakers are Salk HT2-TL which have the revealing Seas and RAAL drivers.
My other thought was you are going in the wrong direction with your amp choices.
I recall reading and appreciating your review. I have a pair of Salk Supercharged SongSurrounds with a Seas/RAAL combination that I haven’t plugged in yet but expect they will sound great. I’m surprised how well they fill relatively large spaces.
I’m seriously now considering starting with an Freya+ / Aegir pairing that I’m semi obsessed with, get the room tuned right then consider other electronics later.
The room is the bottleneck on your system. Treat it well and you'll be rewarded with much better sound.
And that’s a wrap…
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All three of those listed will easily serve these loudspeakers, perhaps too easily. Being solid state they perform best at higher outputs. Unless you're a headbanger you're no doubt running them at an average of about 0.1 wpc. Having plenty of reserve is good (avoids clipping the amp and damaging the loudspeakers) and provides a commanding grip on the drivers, but you're missing the meat of the amps design intent.
I often wondered about this. Is there a sweet spot where an amps performs best but I never found any discussions. Besides being on sale, a reason for wanting to audition the M1200 is because of a user review commenting on good they sounded at lower volume. Of course “lower” wasn’t defined.
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"Lower" depends on room size, distance from loudspeakers to listening position, "real" loudspeaker efficiency, how much background noise exists, your musical/listening tastes, even how your volume control behaves. Get a sound pressure level meter (or an app for your smart phone) to learn how loud you're listening. Most audiophiles listen at 80 dB, maybe 85 dB for critical listening. Note that extended exposure to a constant 85 dB or louder will result in hearing loss and possible damage. That's why I use OSHA approved hearing protection when mowing.
If you look at distortion versus wattage plots you'll find solid state does best at higher levels (and then severely clip just beyond their rated output). Tube amps are cleaner at the lowest levels (but "soft" clip beyond rated output). Another consideration is the relationship between watts and dB (it's logarithmic, meaning it takes 10 times the wattage to add 10 dB which is an apparent doubling of the sound pressure level). So an 80 dB/w/m loudspeaker needs 10 times the power to sound as loud as a 90 dB/w/m loudspeaker or 100 times the power to sound as a 100 dB/w/m loudspeaker.
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Another consideration is the relationship between watts and dB (it's logarithmic, meaning it takes 10 times the wattage to add 10 dB which is an apparent doubling of the sound pressure level). So an 80 dB/w/m loudspeaker needs 10 times the power to sound as loud as a 90 dB/w/m loudspeaker or 100 times the power to sound as a 100 dB/w/m loudspeaker.
This is exactly why both my systems have speakers that are 97db efficient. It opens up a world of amps that simply aren't feasible on 87db (or lower) speakers. My basic rule of thumb is that 87db (or lower) speakers need 30 watts minimum to sound good. With 97db speakers it's about 3 watts. Like you said, power requirements are logarithmic.
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Get a sound pressure level meter (or an app for your smart phone) to learn how loud you're listening. Most audiophiles listen at 80 dB, maybe 85 dB for critical listening. Note that extended exposure to a constant 85 dB or louder will result in hearing loss and possible damage. That's why I use OSHA approved hearing protection when mowing.
If you look at distortion versus wattage plots you'll find solid state does best at higher levels (and then severely clip just beyond their rated output). Tube amps are cleaner at the lowest levels (but "soft" clip beyond rated output). Another consideration is the relationship between watts and dB (it's logarithmic, meaning it takes 10 times the wattage to add 10 dB which is an apparent doubling of the sound pressure level). So an 80 dB/w/m loudspeaker needs 10 times the power to sound as loud as a 90 dB/w/m loudspeaker or 100 times the power to sound as a 100 dB/w/m loudspeaker.
A request I was planning to (and still will) pose is SPL meter recommendations. In an email exchange with LTA today I asked how they defined critical listening (Their product pages recommend min speaker efficiency for critical listening). The response was 75-80dB avg. I said I like to listen at about 55, but this is based on a phone app. I assumed the phone and app are reading significantly low so I would need a decent SPL meter to have apples to apples discussions. I’m a lawn mower ATGATT guy also and now wondering if I really just don’t like listening as loud as most. 80dB surprises me. Any SPL meter recommendations?
Working from home the rig is running 12 hours/day. The idea of running tube gear and burning through tubes really put me off. Maybe I need to consider a tube amp for critical listening and an inexpensive SS amp for back ground.
This is exactly why both my systems have speakers that are 97db efficient. It opens up a world of amps that simply aren't feasible on 87db (or lower) speakers. My basic rule of thumb is that 87db (or lower) speakers need 30 watts minimum to sound good. With 97db speakers it's about 3 watts. Like you said, power requirements are logarithmic.
So my 90 dB M4s and low SPL preference should open up a world of possibilities. Or I’m backing myself into a corner where no amp will work.
Thanks guys for giving me plenty to think about.
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A request I was planning to (and still will) pose is SPL meter recommendations. In an email exchange with LTA today I asked how they defined critical listening (Their product pages recommend min speaker efficiency for critical listening). The response was 75-80dB avg. I said I like to listen at about 55, but this is based on a phone app. I assumed the phone and app are reading significantly low so I would need a decent SPL meter to have apples to apples discussions. I’m a lawn mower ATGATT guy also and now wondering if I really just don’t like listening as loud as most. 80dB surprises me. Any SPL meter recommendations?
Working from home the rig is running 12 hours/day. The idea of running tube gear and burning through tubes really put me off. Maybe I need to consider a tube amp for critical listening and an inexpensive SS amp for back ground.
So my 90 dB M4s and low SPL preference should open up a world of possibilities. Or I’m backing myself into a corner where no amp will work.
Thanks guys for giving me plenty to think about.
Correct - low level listening makes waaaaaay less demands on an amp. Combined with the easy load of the Spatial speakers and 90db efficiency you could play around with 300b amps that have around 8 watts. I don't think I'd go down to a 2a3 amp (4 watts) or a Type 45 amp (2 watts) with your speakers.
But, there's LOTS of really good 8 watt amps out there :thumb:
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Correct - low level listening makes waaaaaay less demands on an amp. Combined with the easy load of the Spatial speakers and 90db efficiency you could play around with 300b amps that have around 8 watts. I don't think I'd go down to a 2a3 amp (4 watts) or a Type 45 amp (2 watts) with your speakers.
But, there's LOTS of really good 8 watt amps out there :thumb:
So the first thing I need to do is learn to speak tube…. LOTS of good 8W tube amps is encouraging. Thanks.
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55 dB is very quiet. Most would put it between moderate rainfall, dishwasher, and normal conversation. Peaks of jazz or large ensemble classical music is 105 dB, live rock 110 dB. A whisper is roughly 30 dB. Jackhammers are 130 dB (dangerously loud). Sound is all about dynamics (the difference between quiet and loud). Large ensemble classical music has a dynamic range of about 30 dB, jazz about 20 dB, rock only 10 dB. Dynamic range of vinyl is about 45 dB. Redbook (the CD standard) is roughly 100 dB (the maximum useable range). At 55 dB you'd be losing half the music, that's why serious listening is done around 85 dB (to balance between hearing it all and avoiding long term hearing loss).
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Your room acoustics (or lack thereof) isn't the reason you can't hear differences in those amps. You have several weak links -- the interconnects, speaker cables, and the DAC. As you trade out a higher quality component, the lower quality aspects of your system will hold it back and prevent you from hearing what it can actually do. For instance, you have good speakers and they can sound far better than they currently do, but hearing the improvement requires upgrading everything in front of them. I'm not bashing what you have, but that's the answer to your question no one wants to say.
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55 dB is very quiet.
I really need to get a decent SPL meter and make sure I’m using it correctly to confirm the levels I’m stating. I recall reading that a reasonably quiet car interior at freeway speeds is something like 70 dB. I’m louder than that but need to confirm. But if dynamics is a fundamental limitation I may just need to accept limited SQ.
You have several weak links -- the interconnects, speaker cables, and the DAC… I'm not bashing what you have, but that's the answer to your question no one wants to say.
I don’t doubt that some gear is limiting. Not feeling bashed. Just trying to figure out the next best step. It’s hard to justify replacing anything if I’m not hearing differences. I know the bass needs to be tamed so some treatments make sense. I’m not sure what I’ll do if volume is holding me back. More time on cans?
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If you read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" (either edition) you'll learn that rooms have inherent peaks and dips (of up to 30 dB!). The recommended fix is the use of multiple (3 or 4) subwoofers placed either in the corners or midpoint of each wall. I have 3 carefully placed subwoofers on top of 4 bass traps in an near ideal (affordable) room. One or two subwoofers typically just make the peaks/dips worse. Lining them up with the main loudspeakers at the end of room is also typical and makes the peaks/dips even worse. This is "hidden phenomena" as we are so conditioned to accepting how "rooms sound".
The best system uses a pair of monitors with limited bass with multiple subwoofers as ideal locations for producing bass is opposite that of producing midrange/treble. Start with that in a decent room (size/shape and insulated) and go from there.
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Just trying to figure out the next best step.
My suggestion is that before you spend time and money fixing the room, try one thing -- change out your XLR interconnects to these entry-level cables: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649837746-2-x-wywires-blue-series-xlr-4/
You'll be amazed at the improvement in sound quality, and you'll probably begin to hear differences in the amps. So here's what happens next -- you get bit by the upgrade bug and start spending money like crazy on better gear. This is your initiation into the IAC -- International Audiophile Club.
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I really need to get a decent SPL meter...
Radio Shack 33-2050
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=radio+shack+33-2050&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=radio+shack+33-2050&_sacat=0)
Use with the correction table for fine tuning but for general loudness the meter readout is perfect.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/RadioShack_33-2050/33-2050.htm (http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/RadioShack_33-2050/33-2050.htm)
I haven't heard the latest Spacial speakers. A friend had the earliest version in a large room with a lot of space behind them, maybe 8'. Your room may be too small for these speakers, I know mine is.
I just got a new DAC and was wondering if I have been playing music louder because the DACs the sound is unbelievable clear and the distortion numbers are so low, -120 dB below the music:
"In almost every way, the HoloAudio May KTE (Level 3) is the best-measuring D/A processor I have encountered, rivaled only by the Weiss DAC502 and MBL N31.—John Atkinson"
https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor (https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor)
Transparent Water - Omar Sosa & Seckou Keita sounds good at 70 dB with peaks to 75 dB
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240834)
Sara Bareilles - Brave Enough, Live at the Variety Playhouse is very dynamic and plays well at 75 dB with peaks to 85 dB
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240835)
Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon (remastered 24 bit/96 kHz) hits 92 dB peaks
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240836)
Carmen Gomes - Ray! (768 kHz) is amazing with an almost 15 dB dynamic range and very clean with peaks to 85 dB at comfortable listening levels
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240838)
I agree with everything JML says about subs but adding more speakers in an already too small room will not solve your problem. Floyd Tooles's writings are a "must read" for all audiophiles in order to get the best sound they can, that is why I posted all the articles I could find in 2008:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0)
But you could read until you are 100 years old and never find a solution to the problem of the right speakers in the wrong room.
I thought of an experiment that many here will find blasphemous. Take a couple of thin blankets and cover the rear of the Spacial speakers. The back wave will be attenuated depending on blanket thickness. Does the room sound clean up? Do the amps sound different now? If there is an improvement then you have to decide on experimenting with room treatments which will make your room look like a recording studio or different, more directional speakers.
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I suppose the next step is to decide if this is merry go round I can afford to ride or am I willing to live with mediocrity.
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I haven't heard the latest Spacial speakers. A friend had the earliest version in a large room with a lot of space behind them, maybe 8'. Your room may be too small for these speakers, I know mine is.
I thought of an experiment that many here will find blasphemous. Take a couple of thin blankets and cover the rear of the Spacial speakers. The back wave will be attenuated depending on blanket thickness. Does the room sound clean up? Do the amps sound different now? If there is an improvement then you have to decide on experimenting with room treatments which will make your room look like a recording studio or different, more directional speakers.
Thank you for the SPL meter and listening recommendations. The speaker decision was made before rotating the setup for reasons of marital harmony. They may be a bit much for space but aren’t overwhelming.
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I've had rooms like yours before. Believe me, nothing will make much of a difference till you treat the room. The glass in particular needs to be covered with something like heavy curtains or thick cloth roman shades. What I did with my space was wooden slats plus roman shades. But all the hard/bare walls with flat lines leading to 90 degree corners is just awful for good sound.
I'd start with a lot of absorbing on that front wall behind the speakers. Put a lot. Don't worry about having 'too much' absorption. IME it's better to start with too many and then remove some vs. starting with too few and not getting the room optimally dialed in.
Also, change out your equipment rack, it's too tall. A low and wide rack is what you want. A tall rack will get out of the way of your speakers imaging and soundstage. Tall and narrow and right between/behind the speakers is the worst possible configuration.
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This is the perfect opportunity to rack up marital harmony points to use for future purchases. The electronics can go on the seat instead of pillows.
GIK acoustic panels can be fit behind the books for even more absorbing power.
Built in Bookshelves with Window-seat for under $350
https://ikeahackers.net/2013/02/built-in-bookshelves-with-window-seat-for-under-350.html (https://ikeahackers.net/2013/02/built-in-bookshelves-with-window-seat-for-under-350.html)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240879)
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I've had rooms like yours before. Believe me, nothing will make much of a difference till you treat the room. The glass in particular needs to be covered with something like heavy curtains or thick cloth roman shades. What I did with my space was wooden slats plus roman shades. But all the hard/bare walls with flat lines leading to 90 degree corners is just awful for good sound.
I'd start with a lot of absorbing on that front wall behind the speakers. Put a lot. Don't worry about having 'too much' absorption. IME it's better to start with too many and then remove some vs. starting with too few and not getting the room optimally dialed in.
Also, change out your equipment rack, it's too tall. A low and wide rack is what you want. A tall rack will get out of the way of your speakers imaging and soundstage. Tall and narrow and right between/behind the speakers is the worst possible configuration.
The current set up followed step one - remove the queen bed to make some space. I’m pretty well convinced of treatments and have in mind most if not all what you’re recommending. I’ve already primed the wife that treatments are coming and she gets to choose the curtains. I didn’t realize the rack is bad. Eventually it, or something similar may move to the wall to the left speaker where there is currently a filing cabinet. If it stays where it is it will be replaced with low and wide.
I am curious about the Breaking Good OP set up. Not to suggest my space doesn’t need help, I know it does, but the OP describes his space as untreated.
This is the perfect opportunity to rack up marital harmony points to use for future purchases. The electronics can go on the seat instead of pillows.
GIK acoustic panels can be fit behind the books for even more absorbing power.
Built in Bookshelves with Window-seat for under $350
https://ikeahackers.net/2013/02/built-in-bookshelves-with-window-seat-for-under-350.html (https://ikeahackers.net/2013/02/built-in-bookshelves-with-window-seat-for-under-350.html)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240879)
Interesting idea though I’m not sure I’d trust all those books to a $350 wall unit.
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I have 3 tall $79 bookcases on side walls to act as "casual diffusors" that can be adjusted. The books will cost more than the bookcases unless you go to a thrift store to buy random books.
Also highly recommend dumping any tall equipment racks. Anything between the loudspeakers block the soundstage. Best I ever had was a single piece of shelving on spikes (like an amp stand), but I have had minimalistic systems for years (current system consist of a streamer/DAC with very small mono-blocks).
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Strongly recommend you invest in acoustic treatments before you make equipment changes
I have -13x15x9 space I built out. Moved in my stuff…. And it was unlistenable.
Went online to learn about Acoustic treatments and built floor to ceiling bass traps for the4 corners and absorption panels for primary reflection points.
Massive improve in sound.
A year or two ago I replaced my rear wall absorption panels with GIK’ s diffusion absorption panels and another bump up in SQ
In your listening chair, clap your hands loudly . Hear an echo? That’s slap echo. Imagine all the frequencies your speakers reproduce coming at you from multiple angles and time delays and you will understand the magnitude of the problem
And we haven’t even touched on nulls and peaks of frequency response.
Do yourself a favor and tackle your acoustic problems first