AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: jkaldor on 16 Jan 2022, 10:26 pm

Title: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 16 Jan 2022, 10:26 pm
I currently replaced all 5 B&W speakers (5.1) HT setup with x MTM in the front xcs center and and the xls as the back surround.  I know I’m wasting the sound of the xls but it works for me as I like it loud.  All speakers have the highest upgrades including tube connectors.  Love the sound. The x MTM is delivering outstanding base with the sub.  Listening 2 channel for music as well as Dolby is outstanding. 

I’m driving all speakers with rotel - rotel rsp1570 sound processor and and the rmb1075 120watt power amp. 

Problem;
I am having a hard time getting a distinct sound from the backs, in other words the surround sound still sounds like it’s coming out of the front speakers.  I have adjusted the fine tuning amplification to a plus 7 to the backs and still can’t get a distinct sound.  I am having to adjust the sound up to 65-70 in some cases to get a good sound stage, I do like it loud.  The sound stage is great at all levels but seems the more power the better with these speakers. 

Do I need a bigger amp?  Any suggestions on setup, amp, sound processor?  I do have a fairly large room 25x22

Open to any suggestions even criticism if need be.  Love the speakers, unbelievable sound stage!!!
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: RonP on 16 Jan 2022, 10:44 pm
Does it sound "correct" when only the 2 rear speakers are playing?

(ie turn off the front LCR as a test)
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jlucas on 16 Jan 2022, 11:18 pm
Does that receiver classify the size (large/small) of the speaker?  Are the rears set to small?
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 16 Jan 2022, 11:48 pm
Does it sound "correct" when only the 2 rear speakers are playing?

(ie turn off the front LCR as a test)

Yes sir when playing 5 channel they all play at the same level or seem to be…..also when setting up each channel they are playing the white noise that is used to set them up….
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 16 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm
Does that receiver classify the size (large/small) of the speaker?  Are the rears set to small?

Yes, the front are set to large with crossover to sub set at 60 Hz.sound great and help disburse the base.  Back are set to small and 80Hz crossover.   That’s what’s odd with the B&W you definitely could hear the distinction.  The sound stage with his setup  is absolutely amazing blows B&W away and I was a huge fan of B&W.   Really happy with these.   
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: corndog71 on 17 Jan 2022, 02:03 am
Maybe try turning the X-LS to face up rather than directly at you.  Also, what are they wired with?  Hopefully at least 16awg wire.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: mlundy57 on 17 Jan 2022, 02:16 am
You can try plugging the ports on the LS and see if that helps.

The Omni directional RS speakers make the best surround speakers with the LS as surround back speakers. Baring getting a pair of RS surrounds, try corndog’s suggestion of firing the LS up or at an angle so you get more of an off axis response
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 17 Jan 2022, 02:45 pm
Maybe try turning the X-LS to face up rather than directly at you.  Also, what are they wired with?  Hopefully at least 16awg wire.
Thanks for the replys guys I really appreciate the suggestions and trying them all.  They are currently placed slightly behind and out 4 above our heads so we are setting a slightly side directional but definitely not directly at us.  Yes they are wired with 16 gauge….
Thanks I will try moving them around and upwards to see if they works.

Thanks again
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 17 Jan 2022, 02:47 pm
You can try plugging the ports on the LS and see if that helps.

The Omni directional RS speakers make the best surround speakers with the LS as surround back speakers. Baring getting a pair of RS surrounds, try corndog’s suggestion of firing the LS up or at an angle so you get more of an off axis response
I need to get some foam plugs but will certainly try that as well, also trying corn dogs suggestions.  Again thanks for all the help guys, it restores my faith in humanity that others are offering to help!
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: VinceT on 17 Jan 2022, 03:09 pm
My AVR has distance and delay settings

Try adjusting those settings as well if available. Great suggestions here so far. I would start with positioning and aiming first and foremost. I use Encores for my mains in HT. They sound best with ample distance. Maybe aim them behind the listening position so the sound bounces off the rear walls. Or try them laying on its side. Good luck, I am sure you will rewarded once you figure it out.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 17 Jan 2022, 03:10 pm
Before buying foam plugs, you can also use socks to stuff the ports to see if that aids in their performance.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: EdwardT on 17 Jan 2022, 03:19 pm
Have you tried swapping the phase of the XLs?
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: VinceT on 17 Jan 2022, 03:21 pm
I have tried socks in the ports of mine. It does make them a little more punchy, in all honesty not sure if it will solve the issue. As much as i live sealed speakers, I went back to the open port and sounds better IMO/IMR. Another question is break in. Being they are surround speakers how much time does the OP have on them? He mentioned premium parts were used, I know mine took a while to really open up.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 17 Jan 2022, 04:42 pm
I have tried socks in the ports of mine. It does make them a little more punchy, in all honesty not sure if it will solve the issue. As much as i live sealed speakers, I went back to the open port and sounds better IMO/IMR. Another question is break in. Being they are surround speakers how much time does the OP have on them? He mentioned premium parts were used, I know mine took a while to really open up.

Vince you might be right they have only been used as surrounds so they may need more time to break in....we will give sometime and try the other suggestions.
I appreciate your suggestion...
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 17 Jan 2022, 04:42 pm
Before buying foam plugs, you can also use socks to stuff the ports to see if that aids in their performance.
Perfect we will....
Thanks Hobbs
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: mlundy57 on 17 Jan 2022, 07:13 pm
Vince you might be right they have only been used as surrounds so they may need more time to break in....we will give sometime and try the other suggestions.
I appreciate your suggestion...

With premium parts the X-LS Encore takes at least 50 hours of break-in to sound decent and will continue to improve for 200+ hours. When not listening, hook them up as main speakers and let them play continuously. This will speed up the break in process. If the speakers playing is bothersome, face them towards each other a few inches apart, switch the positive and negative speaker wires on one of them, throw a blanket over both of them and let them play. You won't hear anything.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: VinceT on 17 Jan 2022, 07:52 pm
Vince you might be right they have only been used as surrounds so they may need more time to break in....we will give sometime and try the other suggestions.
I appreciate your suggestion...


How far is the rear speakers to the closest listening position?
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: Norman Tracy on 17 Jan 2022, 10:03 pm
jkaldor, are you setting the speaker levels in the processor using a SPL meter or by ear? My experience is with surround sound a meter is necessary. Use the meter to get the channels matched in level with processor's white noise then make final fine adjustments changing +-1 dB at a time.

Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: Vince in TX on 17 Jan 2022, 10:44 pm
I almost went this route back in 2020 when I bought pair of the X-LS Encores (with all the bells and whistles).    When I told Danny I was thinking about using them as my rear surrounds, he recommended against it.   So instead I bought two pairs of the A/V-1RS kits and couldn't be happier.   Your experience basically confirms what Danny was saying.   I hope you get it sorted out!

Side note, I just sold those X-LS Encores (still unassembled  in their boxes) to a forum member, so it wasn't a total loss.    :thumb:
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: WGH on 17 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm
I am having a hard time getting a distinct sound from the backs...

Sounds like a combination of areas need to addressed.

"The Rotel RMB-1095 that we reviewed a while ago had a laid back high end, and the 1075 continues in that mold."
https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_3/rotel-rmb-1075-power-amplifier-7-2001.html (https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_3/rotel-rmb-1075-power-amplifier-7-2001.html)

A laid back high end doesn't work as well with modern Blu-ray disks, all those quick, sharp directional ques will be subdued. Back in 2001 the Rotel sounded great because surround sound was closer to a matrixed mix instead of the Dolby Atmos object oriented sound that arrived around 2018.

The X-LS are probably less bright than the B&W so you will notice the drop in detail but better overall sound quality.

The Rotel RSP-1570 doesn't have room correction so you will manually have to set the distance and levels with sound meter.
New processors have advanced menu frequency adjustments to fine tune the speaker to your room if the highs are too soft.

I lowered the volume of the LCR speakers in the processor menu which made the rear speakers louder in comparison, I call it my "Dune" adjustment. I saw "Dune" in a Dolby Atmos theater and realized my surrounds were not adjusted loud enough. Lowering the LCR volume gives the rear speaker adjustment more headroom so the settings aren't maxed out. Even advanced computer/microphone room correction is only a starting point, fine tuning has to be done by ear.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: Norman Tracy on 18 Jan 2022, 06:14 am
Interesting take by WGH. Level tweaking the LCR array down is a great idea to try. Also GR could suggest a resistor value change in the rear channel speakers to bring up the tweeter level a dB or so looking to capture that "Dune" Atmos adjustment. The idea observation that object oriented tech and resulting mixing norms call for a different brighter balance in speakers is thought provoking.

With surround sound we multiply the variables that need to be brought into harmony for a really magic result. Enjoy the journey taking your time as you dial it in.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jparkhur on 18 Jan 2022, 03:15 pm
Why not run them all FULL RANGE / LARGE.  Still can do sub fine?   That would push everything out and XO would do some work. ???
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: WGH on 18 Jan 2022, 07:39 pm
Full range is good for 5 channel/immersive music. My movie listening levels are a lot louder. Usually the low frequencies in the surround channels are rolled off at 80 Hz which allows the amp to have more reserve power for the LCR and the sub does what it is designed to do. Since your amp has 120 W for each of the 5 channels you can certainly give it a try.

The X-LS is -3db down at 55Hz so the crossover turns some 30 - 40Hz movie bass into wasted heat. Movies with strong deep base like "Blade Runner 2049" would probably bottom out the woofer if run full range at Dolby reference levels.

Are you listening to the X-LS off axis? How far do you sit from the surrounds? Surround speakers should have a wide even dispersion pattern, even going as far as bi-pole designs. The X-LS look like they are very focused, great for stereo music but for surrounds...?

X-LS Horizontal Response
(https://i0.wp.com/gr-research.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/x-ls-encore-horizontal_orig.jpeg?w=640&ssl=1)


I noticed a big jump in clarity, dynamics and surround effects after moving to the Anthem AVM 60 after my old Outlaw 975 died. The Outlaw was about as old as your Rotel RSP-1570 and the sound was definitely dated. I also discovered home theater upgrades aren't cheap.

One advantage of the new room correction software in modern processors are different speakers are tonally matched and volume corrected, in my setup it turns the center and 5 pair of slightly different sounding speakers into one huge seamless sound space. Sounds move around in space without any speaker localization. It helps that all the surround and Atmos speakers are bi-pole.

Here is an example of the frequency response adjustments I have at my fingertips.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=231673&size=huge)

Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 18 Jan 2022, 08:25 pm
With premium parts the X-LS Encore takes at least 50 hours of break-in to sound decent and will continue to improve for 200+ hours. When not listening, hook them up as main speakers and let them play continuously. This will speed up the break in process. If the speakers playing is bothersome, face them towards each other a few inches apart, switch the positive and negative speaker wires on one of them, throw a blanket over both of them and let them play. You won't hear anything.
WOW had no idea...I know its going to take time to break them in and that maybe the issue....
Thanks for the suggestions
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 18 Jan 2022, 08:25 pm
Why not run them all FULL RANGE / LARGE.  Still can do sub fine?   That would push everything out and XO would do some work. ???
Yes sir at full range and large...love the base spread that give!
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 18 Jan 2022, 08:27 pm
Interesting take by WGH. Level tweaking the LCR array down is a great idea to try. Also GR could suggest a resistor value change in the rear channel speakers to bring up the tweeter level a dB or so looking to capture that "Dune" Atmos adjustment. The idea observation that object oriented tech and resulting mixing norms call for a different brighter balance in speakers is thought provoking.

With surround sound we multiply the variables that need to be brought into harmony for a really magic result. Enjoy the journey taking your time as you dial it in.
Norman thanks I actually tried this and did seem to make a difference, I believe I will go back and try to dial in and break in as Mundy suggested and that may get me where I want to be..
thanks for the suggestion I was on the right track...
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 18 Jan 2022, 08:33 pm
Full range is good for 5 channel/immersive music. My movie listening levels are a lot louder. Usually the low frequencies in the surround channels are rolled off at 80 Hz which allows the amp to have more reserve power for the LCR and the sub does what it is designed to do. Since your amp has 120 W for each of the 5 channels you can certainly give it a try.

The X-LS is -3db down at 55Hz so the crossover turns some 30 - 40Hz movie bass into wasted heat. Movies with strong deep base like "Blade Runner 2049" would probably bottom out the woofer if run full range at Dolby reference levels.

Are you listening to the X-LS off axis? How far do you sit from the surrounds? Surround speakers should have a wide even dispersion pattern, even going as far as bi-pole designs. The X-LS look like they are very focused, great for stereo music but for surrounds...?

X-LS Horizontal Response
(https://i0.wp.com/gr-research.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/x-ls-encore-horizontal_orig.jpeg?w=640&ssl=1)


I noticed a big jump in clarity, dynamics and surround effects after moving to the Anthem AVM 60 after my old Outlaw 975 died. The Outlaw was about as old as your Rotel RSP-1570 and the sound was definitely dated. I also discovered home theater upgrades aren't cheap.

One advantage of the new room correction software in modern processors are different speakers are tonally matched and volume corrected, in my setup it turns the center and 5 pair of slightly different sounding speakers into one huge seamless sound space. Sounds move around in space without any speaker localization. It helps that all the surround and Atmos speakers are bi-pole.

Here is an example of the frequency response adjustments I have at my fingertips.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=231673&size=huge)
I redirected to more direct pattern after initially setting up off axis seem to help and yes maybe using them in a application that's not a good fit...  Thanks for the recommendation on the amp I have been thinking about upgrading as these things really like power and man do they  sound great with power!    thanks for the insight and suggestion I really appreciate everyone suggestions and help.  I hmay have to rethink the surround application if I can't them the way I want after a good break in time...
Thanks again
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: VinceT on 30 Jan 2022, 03:29 pm
Just an update for the OP.

I used my Encores in rear channel duty last night. I must say they are an excellent performer and really brought a lot to the party. If you have the room to get these 10+ away from the rear listening position they are excellent in for rear channels. 
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 31 Jan 2022, 04:12 pm
Vince thank you!  They really do bring a lot of stage to the backs.  I can't get mine that far back as the above me about 4' and about 8' away.  I have been playing with the processor settings and they gotten better.  I raise the crossover to 100hz and it seemed to help.  I also redirected more toward the center of the room for less direct sound.  I think they just need to be broken n more.  I'm still going to try and point them up to see how that sounds just haven't had the time to fart with them after the recent changes.
Thanks for the update it helps.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: VinceT on 31 Jan 2022, 07:33 pm
Yes you just need to fiddle with them

Mine sound better running in large mode, but each set up is different. If your are close to walls I can see why you took some of the low end out. My AVR allows me to EQ rears seperately so I was able to really dial mine in that way. I have taken speakers and essentially put them near the floor pointing up and that has worked. I would say whatever you need to do to get more distance the better. Mine are about 11 foot away at ear level, sound amazing. I got out the tape measure and dialed in the distance settings for the delay and that really helped.
Title: Re: Not getting good surround sound out of xls rear speakers
Post by: jkaldor on 1 Feb 2022, 03:35 pm
Hmm I never tried setting to large...and I still need to try and post them up...Thanks I really appreciate your suggestions