AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Open Baffle Speakers => Topic started by: nature boy on 6 Nov 2019, 04:39 pm
-
Greetings,
I attended Steve Deckert's annual get together, Decfest in early October. My primary interest was hearing two new driver offerings from Lii Audio, the F-15 and Crystal 10's in open baffle designs. Steve had two beautiful, large 2" thick hardood baffle offerings and Randy from Caintuck Audio brought a pair of his new Lii 15 OB speakers in a smaller baffle, same size as his infamous Betsy Baffles.
While both the F-15 and Crystal 10 speakers sounded great, I was really drawn to the F-15 driver baffles. After my Decfest listening session I ordered a pair of Randy's Lii F15 baffles in Sapele and Maple hardwoods. After only 50 hours (out of 250 hours for full burn in) I can only say these are one of the most satisfying stereo equipment purchases I've ever made.
These speakers are simply amazingly musical. The throw a tremendous 3D soundstage with excellent detail and speed. I am now sold on open baffle designs with the right drivers. These little open baffles also don't cost an arm and leg. A nice pair of hardwood options are less than $1K delivered.
Here are a few pictures of the speakers:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200552)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200553)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200554)
Enjoy.
NB
-
I have a pair of these on order as well. Have also purchased a Decware Zen Triode amp (used) - feel like I have gone over the cliff into SET and OB land. My current system couldn't be more different with KEF ls50s and a Mivera high power class D amp. Have the little Decware amp running my KEFs in my small room (while I wait for the Caintucks) and am quite surprised at how good a 2 watt amp can be with low efficiency speakers. Small room being the key. Will plan to post my experience and some pictures once mine arrive (2-3 weeks away).
One curiosity would be how the F-15s compare to the Crystal 10s or even other full rangers in open baffle - as always every move you make opens more doors and possibilties.
-
clean looking NB. love the gear!
-
A big shout out on the acoustic wall treatment. I would never thought a door matt could be wall mounted.
Alan
-
Alan,
It's a very expensive, acoustically certified door mat. It's made from hemp.😄 It actually breaks up rear firing sound waves very well.
NN
-
Cool i'm totally facinated by these. So you could have purchesed the 15 inch in the large baffles or these smaller ones? There was not a difference in the sound quality enough to get the larger ones? These seem like the perfect size.
-
Caintuck Audio only offers the smaller baffles, either 1" thick assorted hardwoods or red oak plywood (w/ various stain options). Decware offers their Zen Master OB series, in a medium size & large size. Both are 2" thick hardwoods. They are pretty heavy, more expensive and available through the Decware website.
Alternatively, your can order a Lii Audio F-15 driver and build your own baffles if you have the tools and woodworking skills.
NB
-
@ nature boy - great review!
What did you think about the Lii Crystal Flagship Speakers? Also, what were some of the more noticeable differences between the F15 and Crystal drivers? What were some of the differences with the Crystal OB compred to the Flagship speakers?
I'm more of a details and imaging person over bass (though tuneful bass is a must) and I'm just wondering which one of the two drivers I would prefer.
Thanks!
-
Those wood tones are really nice.... is the finish coat flat or semigloss. At $800 give or take... they would make an interesting comparison with the Maggie LRS. How far out from the back wall do they need to be and how far away is the listening position from the speakers.
-
Wonder how is the F15 bass under 100Hz in this OB ?
-
Beowulf,
The Crystal 10's we're exceptionally clean sounding drivers. At Decfest Steve Deckert used them in combination with his ZRock 2 bass enhancer, which never got dialed in properly. The 10 sounded better to my ears in the Lii Audio designed cabinet, which was very large.
To my ears the F-15 sounded better in the OB design. Both drivers have gobs of detail and they image like nothing I've ever heard before. The F-15 just conveyed the music with more emotion and sounded more musical to my ears, as well as providing a better bass foundation. With a fast, well integrated sub, the Crystal 10 may win out but I was looking for simplicity.
Ron,
The wood is treated with linseed oil, no additional finish beyond that.
FRM,
I believe the F-15 specs indicate a frequency range of 50-20,000Hz. Steve Deckert's measurements confirmed they start rolling off at 50Hz with listenable bass down to ~35Hz. However they seem to play lower. I listened to Bela Fleck's Cosmic Hippo and a lot of deep organ music during the last two weeks and the speakers dug very deep. I didn't find bass lacking at all. Keep in mind that I need another 200 hours until full break in. The bass continues to get tighter each day.
The speakers have sensitivity of 97dB at 1 meter into 8 ohms, so they can be driven very loud with any amplifier. So they are an exceptional match for low powered SET amps.
NB
-
Duplicate.
-
nature boy,
Thanks for bringing Randy's latest creations to our attention. I DIY'd a pair of Betsy's a few years ago and liked what they did but the lack of bass caused me to unload them. What is your room size? Mine is 11w x 15.5l x 8h wondering if a pair will work in my space or do I need a larger room.
Chris
-
NB
How do you compare the baffles to Omega Speakers? I have to imagine they have a fuller sound with that big ol speaker. Do you have them hooked up bare wire or? Thanks
-jm
-
The speakers have sensitivity of 97dB at 1 meter into 4 ohms, so they can be driven very loud with any amplifier. So they are an exceptional match for low powered SET amps.
How in 4 ohms? The F15 are 8 ohms, there is a 4 ohms version?
FS is 49Hz so bass starting roll off at this freq. the sugested BR box seems 260L (110x40x60) but with a bigger box and the right stuff the bass can reach lower freq.
The freq chart show treble start roll off at 12kHz, certainly at 15kHz it already lost the phase control, so dont reach 20kHz imo.
Other mistake is the MMS they show:
14.Mms 13.70 grams
13gr seems the whizzer white weight cone.
The woofer big black cone should weight at least 70gr or more.
-
8 ohms, my mistake.
NB
-
NB....did Randy also have a pair of his "standard" Betsy's in attendance....and if so, how did the F15s compare throughout the mids and top end?
-
Chris,
My room is similar in size 12.5' x 15.5' x 7.5". The OB's do well in a smaller room, but need some distance from the rest wall to sound best.
JM,
Similar in tone to the Omega's. The Lii Audio cones appear to be paper, not sure if they're treated. Due to the larger 15" cones (compared to 6" Omega help cones) they do indeed sound fuller.
As FRM stated, the higher frequency range does indeed start to roll off at 12KHz. So not a truly a full range speaker. However I don't hear any diminished treble response as compared to my Omega SAHO XRS speakers. Maybe it's just my diminished old age hearing loss😁.
Ron,
I suggest you give Randy a call or shoot him an email for a comparison. He's spent a lot more time listening to both speakers. He'll give you honest feedback. I haven't spent much time listening to the Betsy's and they were not played much at this years Decfest.
NB
-
I'll be making a pair of the large Decware version with the 15" drivers this winter. I made a clone of the original Betsy's using Visaton B200 drivers and they came out very well. They were very fast, very clean but overall a little lightweight. My room isn't ideal either. But it looks like a fun project.
-
However I don't hear any diminished treble response as compared to my Omega SAHO XRS speakers.
Its just a suspicion for a correct analysis we need to see the complete 20Hz - 20kHz phase chart on axis.
-
NB
It would be interesting to hear a comparison...between your F15s and your Omegas....price not withstanding....not a which is better...but more of a what are the sound differences you have observed....
-
Demand is high, the 15's seemed to be out for a while. I went ahead and just ordered the 10's. I use a sub so maybe it'll work for me. Thanks for the motivation.
-
Glad to see folks enjoy their Lii Audio speakers. I bought the Fast 10 about a month ago and am currently building a box with curved sides. Dimensions are 33" tall, 14" wide and 17" in length. These drivers sound amazingly nice.... better than the B&W 800D's. Right now they are lacking a little bit in bass but I believe that's because I have been playing them in incomplete enclosures(breaking them in for now).
Last week I listened to James Brown's duet with Pavarotti, "It's a man's world" and man it made me smile. I also played Hubert Sumlin's "Sometimes I think Im right" and..... well it's just beautiful. Right now Im running them with a cheap receiver that I purchased from best buy. Once I'm done building the box, then comes the DAC, and a tube amp.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200880)
-
I am closing in on 200 hours with the Caintuck Audio (Randy's) Lii-15 speakers. They just keep sounding better and better. The treble has really smoothed out. The bass, well that is something truly amazing. This large, single driver seems to do everything well - so coherent & musical.
I spun my new 45RPM Mobile Fidelity Dire Straits "Love Over Gold" release yesterday. I was simply overcome with the intensity of deep bass notes on several songs. No cone break up or distortion whatsoever at high volumes (+95dB). These speakers are incredibly fast my Decware Zen Mystery Amp with 25th Anniversary modifications that nothing gets lost in complex musical passages. The sound is absolutely magical.
I am looking forward to blowing a few minds of family members on Thanksgiving day. Something tells me veryfew guests will be watching football games here on Thursday, they'll be listening to music.
NB
-
Great :D keep us posted.
-
My Caintuck Lii15s are approaching 50 hours so long ways to go. Actually first 30 hours wasn't sure - anything that wasn't well recorded sounded awful. Just today they are starting to open up to get instrument and voice separation and a bit more bass. My hope is that they will come close to my Spatial M3s only more functional in a small room. Photo attached.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201291)
-
David, this your nice OB provide a soundstage low/near the floor as pictured?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201291)
-
yes - good image from where photo is taken. Listened to new Leonard Cohen last night and was tall image and in the room - these drivers do bass really well as they open up.
Weird part is I sit at a desk to right of speakers / listening chair fair bit (am right now). Its like sitting in private balcony seat looking down at stage below me from this seat - so very different image and not something I have experienced before.
The floating image is big part of the success of the Caintucks as apparenty they use the floor in front to help with image.
-
I'll be making a pair of the large Decware version with the 15" drivers this winter. I made a clone of the original Betsy's using Visaton B200 drivers and they came out very well. They were very fast, very clean but overall a little lightweight. My room isn't ideal either. But it looks like a fun project.
Hi RoadTripper - I was also thinking of making a pair of the Big Betsy speakers. I ordered the Caintuck Betsy with the F15 Drivers but am very intrigued by the Decware Big Betsy. I was looking into using pre-fabricated Butcher Block 1 3/4 inch thick for the baffle to save on cost and effort - what do you think of that idea?
Thanks and regards
-
I think someone on the decware forum used this one and said it was great and made the lii driver sound more "live"
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hardwood-Reflections-4-ft-2-in-L-x-2-ft-1-in-D-x-1-5-in-T-Butcher-Block-Countertop-in-Unfinished-Birch-BBCT1502550/300688696?MERCH=REC-_-rv_cartempty_rr-_-NA-_-300688696-_-N
-
I think someone on the decware forum used this one and said it was great and made the lii driver sound more "live"
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hardwood-Reflections-4-ft-2-in-L-x-2-ft-1-in-D-x-1-5-in-T-Butcher-Block-Countertop-in-Unfinished-Birch-BBCT1502550/300688696?MERCH=REC-_-rv_cartempty_rr-_-NA-_-300688696-_-N
Link didn't work for me.
Access Denied
You don't have permission to access "http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hardwood-Reflections-4-ft-2-in-L-x-2-ft-1-in-D-x-1-5-in-T-Butcher-Block-Countertop-in-Unfinished-Birch-BBCT1502550/300688696?" on this server.
Reference #18.e44504bd.1577317349.42abb1c
-
I was looking into using pre-fabricated Butcher Block 1 3/4 inch thick for the baffle to save on cost and effort - what do you think of that idea?
Baltic Birch is a affordable option.
-
Just saw this. I have no real opinion on the idea. I have plenty of questions though. Mostly about theories as to how the bigger Betsy baffle will perform versus the original sized one. This question arises when you look at the size of the 15 incher in the context of the teeny original baffle. It seems intuitive that when the speaker size approaches the baffle size, you might as well say you don't have a baffle. So what are you sacrificing by opting for the original baffle size? Another question is what is the optimum baffle thickness versus driver(s) size versus cost? A big part of the appeal of this DIY clone project is cost.
-
Another question is what is the optimum baffle thickness
I think 30mm in Baltic Birch or real wood are nice, max would be 50mm IMO.
Avoid MDF or HDF.
-
roadtripper for open baffle, larger baffles basically just give you more bass
-
Just ordered a pair of F-15's planning on building either the Decware ZF15L or M. How long has it taken to get the speakers from Lii Audio?
thanks
-
Worth mention there is the Visaton baffle:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203785)
-
http://www.modelpromo.nl/The%20Liiondias%20Open%20Baffle%20Speaker.htm
Interesting and also with Lii drivers
Enjoy..
-
Both interesting reads. Thank you.
-
Worth mention the Alpha15A 97dB cost $79 made in USA and the Eminence Neodymium series cost is the over $200 range, wonder why the Lii woofer cost $599 ?
I also concerned it dont have a big dome/dust cap to make bass :scratch:
-
http://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28193
Hello
First link in this thread refers to the OB voyage of this guy Leonidas
the same person who developed the crossovers for the PAP trio
Enjoy...
-
roadtripper for open baffle, larger baffles basically just give you more bass
So these small baffles give less bass.
-
Beowulf,
I believe the F-15 specs indicate a frequency range of 50-20 KHz
Perhaps someone in the know will tell us what size baffle these figures were obtained with. I doubt it was the tiny open baffles they are sold with.
-
My Caintuck clones which copy the smaller baffle (original) using the Visaton B200 reach 50 hz. with no apparent fall-off. This is based on hearing, not measuring.
-
My Caintuck clones which copy the smaller baffle (original) using the Visaton B200 reach 50 hz. with no apparent fall-off. This is based on hearing, not measuring.
There is no dispute that low frequencies on open baffles are fast, dynamic, musical and immensely enjoyable. But, these qualities can fool the brain into thinking that the frequencies are deeper than they are. There are only a few ways to beat the physics.
1. Apply separate and often powerful amplification to the bass driver, often accompanied by DSP.
2. Restrict the rear wave from cancelling the front, using extended wings, U frames, H frames or boxes, but each is moving you further away from open baffle sound.
3. Use drivers with very high Qts, that can flop about easily and produce deeper but less accurate bass.
-
how do these or would these compare to the Hawthorne audio 15 incher?
-
Just an FYI...I visited Randy's showroom a couple of months ago and heard the Betsy, Betsy Alnico and LII 15's...He was driving them with a Decware UFO. All of the speakers threw a large sound stage with very good tonal quality. The Betsy's were paired with a Parts Express sub-woofer which seemed to blend pretty well. The LII 15s definitely had more punch...I'll have to go back with some music I am familiar with and do some more listening.
Randy's offerings really seem to be a gateway into high end sound at affordable cost..
Interestingly we moved a set of the speakers to against the wall, and while the sound stage shrank, it was still listenable. So for those with spousal approval issues, these can be easily moved away from the wall for serious listening and back when not...they don't weigh much.
-
Of the three OBs you heard at Randy’s shop, which did you prefer the most and why?
-
how do these or would these compare to the audio 15 incher?
They are no similar, the Hawthorne is a woofer, the Lii 15 is a fullrange.
-
how do these or would these compare to the audio 15 incher?
They are no similar, the Hawthorne is a woofer, the Lii 15 are a fullrange.
In addition to a 15” woofer Hawthorne Audio offered two different 15” coaxial drivers. One had a stamped basket with a Eminence compression driver. The other had a cast frame with a Radian compression driver.
IMO there is a big difference between a coaxial driver and a full range driver. All things being equal I prefer a the latter.
-
couple caveats: I wasn't very familiar with the music played, mostly acoustic stuff from Stockfisch and it was the first time I'd really explored OBs...
To my ears, the 15s were more dynamic and had more detail in the mids and highs than either Betsy. I think Randy said he prefers the original Betsy combo with the sub-woofer...he lives with them, so his opinion is important to consider
Anyway one interesting thing is that the 15 takes up a lot of the baffle real estate and still produces a lot of bass...
-
Are any owners willing to provide an updated review...still like them? could you describe +- experience, placement, associated equip? thanks
-
I’m more intrigued by the 15s than the 10s, but I don’t want the bigger baffles required for the bigger drivers.
-
I have had Caintuck Lii 15s since about November - still loving them. Have a Triode Lab EL84 amp and Don Sachs preamp feeding them. I think the Triode Lab is something like 12 amps which seems just right about of grunt (had 2 watt Decware and it was good too)
I had Spatial M3s before - my room is small and as much as loved my M3s the Caintucks are better in detail and just much smaller physical presence in my small room. Have Gaia 3 footers underneath mine and then on hardwood floors - thought the footers really helped with solidifying the sound. With good recordings can get best I have heard dynamics plus in the room imaging, although if I had a larger room loved the Spatials and / or would look at something like building the Liiondias Open Baffle.
http://www.modelpromo.nl/audio-dandy/reviews/The%20Liiondias%20Open%20Baffle%20Speaker/The%20Liionidas%20Open%20Baffle%20speaker.pdf
Listening to the Allman Brothers right now - I think this combo does nice job with most types of music (they certainly rock better than the 2 watt Decware amp).
-
David,
How the Lii 15s compare to the M3 in terms of tone?
Oh, and what amp were you using with the M3’s?
-
I really like the tone - think it is similar, I think where the Caintuck falls short of the Spatial Audio is impact - can't match the two big drivers and size and height of baffle. Curious about bigger baffles like the ones Decware is doing but have to be mindful of my small room and be happy with what it does (for example does low volume listening very nice - Patricia Barber right now).
Amp is different so not comparing apples - had Sachs Kootenay and a Mivera with the M3s - have gone to low power with the Lii 15s. Have a Schiit Aegir as well and is very nice with the Caintucks especially with Tortuga passive preamp I have - 20 watts solid state.
-
If I'm not mistaken the Lii 15s are rated somewhere around 100 db sensitive, if that's true 20 watts is a lot of power. I'm surprise the Decware fell short. Did you get a chance to hear them with Mivera?
-
Thanks! When I heard them, the soundstage seemed like it was 6" tall and images were well defined. The punch and bass seemed to defy what I have read about OBs as there is very little baffle beyond what is necessary to house the speaker. What I understood was that you need a lot more baffle to generate proper bass and dynamics. Also room placement seemed to be really forgiving, serious listening having a sweet spot, but still sound pretty good when moved out of the way....are my impressions about right?
David have you tried a subwoofer to see if that addressed the impact issues?
-
I found the Decware amp sounded great with jazz and female vocals but got easily confused by rock and not as well recorded music. It also didn't play as well with the Don Sachs preamp in fact was probably best with no preamp - was using the Aegir more often as it seemed better all rounder. The Triode Lab EL84 amp which is push pull design is just better than both all round (but for a price).
Randy's site says the Caintuck Lii 15s are 97 db efficient - so pretty up there.
Haven't tried a subwoofer in my system in some time, my room is small 12 x 13 and have too much crap already (see photo on page 2) but think it would be hard to setup in the room and really think the bass is pretty ok with the setup I have (I am not really a basshead).
One of the things I like about open baffle (vs monitors like my KEFs) is they sound great where ever I am - sitting at desk off axis now and sounds great, but also sounds great in my listening chair in class straight on listening triangle.
-
The Decware OPTs now are EDCOR, usually they are small and EI (not C core) on the SE amps.
-
the Triode Lab EL84 has Hashimoto opts - not sure if they are c core either or whether that is good or bad. One thing is the Triode Lab OPT are a lot bigger than the Decware - both heavy but again not sure if bigger is better here.
-
The Hashimotos are expensive OPTs even the EI, the encapsulated are C core.
The end bells Hashimotos are EI 0.2mm Hi-B lamination according the site.
-
Hi everyone!
I am in the process of putting together what I assume to be my retirement system. I'd like to have input from members that actually own the Lii15 Caintuck or Decware models.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208077)
I'm thinking of pairing my Don Sachs preamplifier with a Quicksilver Mid Monos amps. These amplifiers can use EL34's, KT77's, KT88's, KT120's and KT150's with a maximum output of 50 w/c.
My room dimensions are 12ft by 19ft.
Is this a good system?
Thanks in advance,
Dan
http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/midi-m
-
Is this a good system?
Great system :thumb:
-
thanks FullRangeMan!
Dan
-
Very big power transformer, very long life.
-
I wonder how come the price of a Caintuck Lii15 pair of speakers is $850 in hardwood and the same driver with larger dimensions including a thickness of 2"the price goes all the way up to $5600. I checked a hardwood vendor in town for hardwood maple and I was quoted for $230 to make a pair similar to the Decware models. I do not get it these are open baffles that means no cabinets, no crossovers, no electronic components not even binding posts are required. Upper picture is a Decware model and the picture below is the Caintuck model
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208441)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208446)
-
not even binding posts are required.
Correct, binding posts are just waste of money and results in musical loss due metal/metal signal transfers. All this are a obvious thing but audiophiles seems to be brain washed :duh:
-
not even binding posts are required.
Correct, binding posts are just waste of money and results in musical loss due metal/metal signal transfers. All this are a obvious thing but audiophiles seems to be brain washed :duh:
I don't quite understand how metal/metal signal transfers would result in musical loss. Assuming, of course, that there is no corrosion or oxidation on the surfaces. Good quality, particularly gold plated, binding posts would provide that assurance.
-
I don't quite understand how metal/metal signal transfers would result in musical loss. Assuming, of course, that there is no corrosion or oxidation on the surfaces. Good quality, particularly gold plated, binding posts would provide that assurance.
In this case the musical loss is a mV electric signal, there is a loss as in every connection. Please dont believe that ''golden'' layer is real gold just for that cheap price, its a cheap alloy of nickel etc
-
If you really want to go nuts, wire wrap is the best connection of all: better than silver solder or any of the usual suspects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wrap
-
FullRangeMan,
if the loss of metal-to-metal contact is in the range of mv can this problem be solved by increasing the output by dialing the volume pot?
Is there any way to measure loss of musicality using the standard electrical parameters?
I just read that brass (which is the common alloy used in interconnects and power cord terminations) decreases by more than half the conductivity of the signal depending the amount of zinc and other materials used.
Dan
-
FullRangeMan,
if the loss of metal-to-metal contact is in the range of mv can this problem be solved by increasing the output by dialing the volume pot?
Is there any way to measure loss of musicality using the standard electrical parameters?
I just read that brass (which is the common alloy used in interconnects and power cord terminations) decreases by more than half the conductivity of the signal depending the amount of zinc and other materials used.
Dan
if the loss of metal-to-metal contact is in the range of mv can this problem be solved by increasing the output by dialing the volume pot?
After turn up the volume the loss yet will exist, the loss only will gone after the connection also gone.
Is there any way to measure loss of musicality using the standard electrical parameters?
Do you could try an osciloscope to see what it show.
-
In this case the musical loss is a mV electric signal, there is a loss as in every connection. Please dont believe that ''golden'' layer is real gold just for that cheap price, its a cheap alloy of nickel etc
Can you be more specific about what the "musical loss" is that you're talking about. Please put it in terms of some electrical paraments and how they can effect the music.
Regarding gold plating, I believe reputable manufacturers who specify that it is done to their connectors. Perhaps cheap ones are lying, but I stay away from those.
-
If you really want to go nuts, wire wrap is the best connection of all: better than silver solder or any of the usual suspects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wrap
Wire wrap is rarely used anymore, except for quick prototyping. And it can only be used with relatively small, 28 to 30 gauge, SOLID wire.
It has absolutely no value with heavy, 14 to 16 gauge, stranded wire typically used for speaker connections.
-
The best connection is direct. Instead of passing the signal through the binding posts, route the internal wires through the baffle and clamp the bare wire of the speakers leads to your speaker cable using the binding posts. That way the posts still have a function but now instead of passing the signal through them they serve as clamps sandwiching the the speaker cables to the speaker leads. :wink:
-
The best connection is direct. Instead of passing the signal through the binding posts, route the internal wires through the baffle and clamp the bare wire of the speakers leads to your speaker cable using the binding posts. That way the posts still have a function but now instead of passing the signal through them they serve as clamps sandwiching the the speaker cables to the speaker leads. :wink:
I still haven't seen proof that passing the signal through the binding posts has any affect whatsoever on the signal or the sound. Can you, or anyone, provide the electrical analysis to support that claim.
-
I still haven't seen proof that passing the signal through the binding posts has any affect whatsoever on the signal or the sound. Can you, or anyone, provide the electrical analysis to support that claim.
I wont work to produce proof to convince you, the appreciation of music depends on the perception of each one's ears and brain YMMV.
-
I wont work to produce proof to convince you, the appreciation of music depends on the perception of each one's ears and brain YMMV.
That's all true. But were not talking about appreciation of music or perception of it. We're talking about your assertion that a binding post will actually change the electrical signal passing through it, and change it to a point of being audible.
I claim that a quality binding post will have absolutely no affect on the signal. None. Not even a tiny one. Not a change that can possibly be measured with any instrument and certainly not heard by a listener.
So if you can prove through electronic theory that I am wrong, please do.
-
That's all true. But were not talking about appreciation of music or perception of it. We're talking about your assertion that a binding post will actually change the electrical signal passing through it, and change it to a point of being audible.
I claim that a quality binding post will have absolutely no affect on the signal. None. Not even a tiny one. Not a change that can possibly be measured with any instrument and certainly not heard by a listener.
So if you can prove through electronic theory that I am wrong, please do.
If you said you can hear nothing I will believe you, as I aware some persons have hard hears usually harmed by years of hard work inside industrial plants or electric motors or noisy engines of any type.
But it should be noted that the ears and hands of talented musicians are many levels above the paltry workers like us. I will decline the privilege of educating you, go disturb someone else.
-
If you said you can hear nothing I will believe you, as I aware some persons have hard hears usually harmed by years of hard work inside industrial plants or electric motors or noisy engines of any type.
But it should be noted that the ears and hands of talented musicians are many levels above the paltry workers like us. I will decline the privilege of educating you, go disturb someone else.
This has nothing to do with my hearing. It's about basic electronics. The only way to modify a signal, and thereby change the music that is heard from the speaker, is to introduce some combination of resistance, capacitance, and inductance, i.e. a filter, into the signal path. A small binding post possess none of those electrical properties when connecting two wires close together and therefore cannot change what the listener hears.
I'm sorry that you feel disturbed about this, but my reason for even bring it up to begin with is that I don't think it's appropriate to advise people against using binding posts when they build speakers. With any decent quality post there is no possible downside. Plus the convenience for easy connection and speaker changes is certainly a worthwhile thing that most want to have.
And if I feel the need for education, or I should say reeducation, on the subject I'll pull out my old electrical engineering text books from college. But I don't think I really need to. I remember the principles quite well.
-
The only plausible electrical effect of which I'm aware not addressed by the usual resistance, capacitance and inductance aspects usually cited by those with electrical engineering backgrounds is the possible diodic effect caused by oxidation at metal junctions. I wonder, but don't know, if some sort of diodic effect could also be caused by junctions of dissimilar metals even when not seriously oxidized. I can easily see how any actual diodic effect would cause waveform symmetry to be altered, which would affect tonality: witness the natural assymetry of certain instruments' sound waveforms—I've seen surprisingly assymetrical waveforms when recording certain brass instruments, trombone, especially. I presime the assymetry forms part of the distinctive sound signature.
As to wire wrap—I know it's not realistic, it's just that I understood it to be the very best technique for lowering resistance at connections—better than any solder—due to the 'cold welding' effect of the extreme contact pressure at the corners.
-
Aren't most binding post, cables RCA terminations and power cords spades/bananas made out of brass or copper?
Which one is better?
Dan
-
Copper is better for electrical transfer, brass contains lead.
-
Yeah. Brass is only for durability.
-
Hi, I just found this thread as I was researching the Lii15. I have a Triode Labs SET 2A3 amp with a whooping 3.5watt output and a Triode Labs Au Pré preamp. Do you think that in my medium size room that there is enough power? Has anyone ordered from Caintuck into Canada - any idea of shipping and tax?
Thanks
Alan
-
Hi, I just found this thread as I was researching the Lii15. I have a Triode Labs SET 2A3 amp with a whooping 3.5watt output and a Triode Labs Au Pré preamp. Do you think that in my medium size room that there is enough power? Has anyone ordered from Caintuck into Canada - any idea of shipping and tax?
Thanks
Alan
I've heard both Randy and Steve Deckert run them with the 2 watt Zen Triode. I think the 2A3 amp should be fine, but check with Randy first. He is very responsive on the Decware forums here: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?board=randy (https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?board=randy)
-
Thanks!
I have reached out to Randy and he has suggested that the 2A3 would be fantastic with both the Betsy and the Lii15. I am sure that the larger driver would be a better fir for my room, but any thoughts on the original Betsy Vs. the larger driver?
-
I was running a pair of Lii 15 baffles with a Decware UFO (2 watts) last fall. Could only get volume to about 1/2 way in my small room - lots of power. Last winter had chance to buy a Triode Labs EL84 amp - more power, better iron - sound is just more of everything. No problem driving the Lii15s with either amp - although heads up my room is only 12x13 and one of the reasons I sold my Spartial Audio M3s to go with the smaller Lii15s. (similar sound just better fit). Loving this combo!
David
-
should add that I am in Canada and purchased from Randy. He was great to work with. Shipping was around $80 - they are heavy little guys. My speakers were really affordable for the quality of the build - think the taxes and custom broker fees were around $100. So definately adds a bit with US / CA dollar exchange as well. Was just thinking this week that I have had absolutely no desire to change things since getting the Caintucks and Triode Labs combo - a rare thing for me. Have I maybe settled on what works for me and my room - I think a magical combo.
-
original Betsy Vs. the larger driver?
Bigger FR drivers are ever better, a 12'' FR driver already rare today imagine a 15'' FR driver for $400/pair, its a bargain, just read the stuff at decware site.
-
Thanks for the replies! I loved my Omega Super 3i because of their tone and speed but they co quite fill my room. I have a pair of Coherent model 8's that Frank built for me but they don't fill the single driver sound that I like.
Thanks for your advice and your experience in dealing with Randy for shipping to Canada, with the exch rate being what it is, I just wanted to understand what the costs might be.
The Lii15 sounds like a fantastic bargain!
-
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210858)
-
The Lii F15 drivers have been my primary speaker (in DIY barrel-shaped baffles larger than Randy uses) for the past 3 months and I really like them. But Lii's published measurements seem over-optimistic to me. Granted, every room is different, but in my smallish listening room, the F15's frequency response looks more like the Classic Alnico 10 above. In my room, the F15s drop off dramatically below 63 Hz and above 10K Hz. And the mid-treble is, well, energetic. Nowhere near as flat as Lii's frequency graph would suggest.
If you look at Lii's website, it looks as though they measure their speakers using a huge baffle: looks like it might be as big as 6' x 8'. That might explain the bass extension Lii claims for their speakers.
-
That is a beautiful graph! Kind of sums it up! As I have mentioned, I am a total non-tech, so I am thankful for people like you who are into the clever bits!
-
frequency response looks more like the Classic Alnico 10 above. In my room, the F15s drop off dramatically below 63 Hz and above 10K Hz.
The chart start fall at 50Hz, to up this is need a well stuffed box(big).
The F15 graphic are too flat, hard to believe this kind of flat response.
-
Thanks for inform us Ric, hi mass connectors are always bad IMO, I think these parts were what they had on hand at the assembly time, anyway these drivers are very inexpensive.
What I dont like is the magnet metal cover, it obstruct the VC cooling, FR fans usually wrap the magnet in a furry blanket or felt, but that metal cup let me curious. Do you had removed the magnet metal cover from any driver to see if there is a sound inprovment?
-
Greetings,
I attended Steve Deckert's annual get together, Decfest in early October. My primary interest was hearing two new driver offerings from Lii Audio, the F-15 and Crystal 10's in open baffle designs. Steve had two beautiful, large 2" thick hardood baffle offerings and Randy from Caintuck Audio brought a pair of his new Lii 15 OB speakers in a smaller baffle, same size as his infamous Betsy Baffles.
While both the F-15 and Crystal 10 speakers sounded great, I was really drawn to the F-15 driver baffles. After my Decfest listening session I ordered a pair of Randy's Lii F15 baffles in Sapele and Maple hardwoods. After only 50 hours (out of 250 hours for full burn in) I can only say these are one of the most satisfying stereo equipment purchases I've ever made.
These speakers are simply amazingly musical. The throw a tremendous 3D soundstage with excellent detail and speed. I am now sold on open baffle designs with the right drivers. These little open baffles also don't cost an arm and leg. A nice pair of hardwood options are less than $1K delivered.
NB
I realize this is a REALLY old post but I have to ask, How are they sounding today? (after the 250hrs) Do you still have them? I just recently placed my order so as you can imagine I'm excited and nervous.
-
Hi, I saw your post and thought I would comment. I bought a beautiful pair of Lii15 from Randy at Caintuck several weeks ago and I can say that in my system they are truly amazing. They take up very little space, they are easy to move into "listening position" and they provide huge WAF🙄. They are so interesting and beautiful that my interior decorator asked me how she can order them for clients..
Now, apart from their beauty, they are a joy to listen to and provide a window into the music that is difficult to find in a box type speaker. The soundstage is wide and its easy to forget about the gear and just relax into the music.
-
The soundstage is wide and its easy to forget about the gear and just relax into the music.
My order from Randy comes end of month! Went down the OB rabbit hole and landed on the Randy's Lii 15's. The aesthetics was an added unexpected bonus that was a real seller with the wife for sure. Your response was everything I wanted to hear and more. That large/wide sound stage will be idea will entertaining guests and even better sitting down with a glass of Whiskey... Now comes the difficult part...... being patient :(
-
Lol... The waiting game was tough but Randy kept me in the loop and delivery date was bang on! The Lii15 are a work of art and I drive them with a Triode Labs SET 2A3 amp with a Triode Labs Au Pré preamp with 3.5watts and they are glorious. I have never had a speaker that my wife cared to listen to, let alone like the look of, but these are actually welcome in the room.. And with a shot of whiskey its even better!
-
Lol... The waiting game was tough but Randy kept me in the loop and delivery date was bang on! The Lii15 are a work of art and I drive them with a Triode Labs SET 2A3 amp with a Triode Labs Au Pré preamp with 3.5watts and they are glorious. I have never had a speaker that my wife cared to listen to, let alone like the look of, but these are actually welcome in the room.. And with a shot of whiskey its even better!
That wouldn't happen to be a tube amp would it? I'll admit my knowledge in the audiophile world is in it's beginning stages but throughout my research on OB and full range speakers everyone seems to be running them with tube amps. Here I am at home with a recently acquired vintage (1977 ish) Pioneer SX-750 receiver and a music hall classic turntable with an VM540ML cartridge thinking "Man... Did I invest the wrong direction? Will my set-up be lacking in quality? Did I get turned on to OB full range set up too late?"
-
NO! Your system will sound FANTASTIC! In all of my years in this crazy hobby I have had old gear, new gear, crap gear, NO GEAR...(The Dark Ages) but, through it all I got to listen to great music. The hobby is really about the journey not the destination, and all to often we (I) get to focused on the gear and not the music...
My current set up is Tube amp, Tube Preamp and a Bluesound Node 2i streamer and it sounds great - the amp output is only 3.5watts and it drives the Lii15 really well.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214305)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214306)
-
NO! Your system will sound FANTASTIC! In all of my years in this crazy hobby I have had old gear, new gear, crap gear, NO GEAR...(The Dark Ages) but, through it all I got to listen to great music. The hobby is really about the journey not the destination, and all to often we (I) get to focused on the gear and not the music...
My current set up is Tube amp, Tube Preamp and a Bluesound Node 2i streamer and it sounds great - the amp output is only 3.5watts and it drives the Lii15 really well.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214305)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214306)
Lawd have mercy those tube amps are SEXY. You should just permanently remove that cabinet door, unless you have children or pets >.>
Once the Lii 15's arrive and my little set up is done I'll defintely post some pics (we just moved homes). Might have to resurrect this old thread again with an update :thumb:
-
They are beautiful to look at and really beautiful to listen too. They are both from Frank @ Triode Labs and he is fantastic to deal with. My place is new as well so I am still working on placement and making sure that the grand kids can not damage the music (or themselves I suppose...LOL). In this regard, the Lii15 are fantastic because they weigh about 15lbs and they literally have a handle on the back so that you can just grab them and move them out of the way.
-
They are both from Frank @ Triode Labs and he is fantastic to deal with.
Decided to take a gander and visit Triode labs for more insight on your tube amp/pre amp. All I have to say is ... :o that's some exotic top of the line gear there sir. Quite a pretty penny, quite a pretty penny indeed. Keep those cabinet doors closed and locked when the little ones are around :lol:
-
I replaced the stock speaker terminals as well. Really opened up the treble and upper frequency range on my Lii Audio F15's. Some change in tonality resulted, but after some minor adjusy to positioning and preamp tubes, they're really singing.
The replacements were KLEI Harmony Naked Binding Posts purchased from PartsConnexion. Very inexpensive and they sound great.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214387)
NB
-
The replacements were KLEI Harmony Naked Binding Posts purchased from PartsConnexion. Very inexpensive and they sound great.
NB
Ah! This was also on my mind, not a fan of the terminal posts that were coming with the Lii 15. Fantastic share! going to purchase these now. Out of curiosity what brand/gauge wiring are you running?
-
Budget-Mike,
They are Dave's ZenWave Audio SMSG 17g speaker cables. I was able to purchase a super nice set from a fellow AC member several years ago. Really love all of Dave's stuff.
NB
-
Budget-Mike,
They are Dave's ZenWave Audio SMSG 17g speaker cables. I was able to purchase a super nice set from a fellow AC member several years ago. Really love all of Dave's stuff.
NB
:o Well, well... considering the supporting pieces you and the other gentlemen own I suppose it's safe to conclude that the Lii F15 from Randy was a fantastic investment choice and will live up to expectations.
-
These simple 15" single driver open baffle speakers continually amaze me. They just let the music shine through, especially with tube equipment. One of my most enjoyable audio equipment purchases. Folks don't know what they're missing.
NB
-
Nature Boy,
Seems like I've found the next rabbit hole to dive into it.... Tube amps/pre-amps :thumb:
-
It's a deep rabbit hole.. But a lot of fun too. The Triode Lab 2A3 Classic SET is a great fit IMHO, but there are a tonne of good options out there, my only advice is to try to find a product made in Canada or the US because there is a lot of crap in the marketplace too.
-
It's a deep rabbit hole.. But a lot of fun too. The Triode Lab 2A3 Classic SET is a great fit IMHO, but there are a tonne of good options out there, my only advice is to try to find a product made in Canada or the US because there is a lot of crap in the marketplace too.
I appreciate the guidance!
-
Hello. I came to get help on something I don't know at all, I hope you will help me, thank you in advance for your help.
Lii audio drivers draw my attention, I am still thinking about whether I should buy crystal 10 or f 15. Since open baffle requires positioning and it is difficult to arrange a place for it, I do not intend to use this design. Which one would you recommend me to use with the cabinet? Crystal 10, Crystal 10 + W-15, F-15?
-
The Lii Audio Crystal 10's are actually designed for a cabinet. The F15 drivers for an open baffle like the Caintuck Audio baffles. Check out the Lii Audio website, they have information on cabinet builds for the Crystal 10's. They also make a fully built speaker with cabinet, which is pretty large.
NB
-
I listened to f15 on decware youtube channel(I know it's not a good idea) I could not find as successful as crystal in detail. How does it sound in real life?
Is it possible to find a design that will run crystal 10 and w-15 in a cabinet?
-
The F15 is very detailed and balanced sounding to my ears. The Crystal 10 has a more extended treble and does not go as low. The F15 treble response can be vastly improved by replacing the stock speaker terminals, which contain a lot of brass. Some drilling and soldering of the speaker coil wire to new terminal posts is required.
I would not pair a Crystal 10 and F15 driver in the same cabinet, you'll get a lot of smearing with two whizzer cones (which reproduce treble frequencies). If your stuck on a two driver compliment for some reason, best bet would be a Crystal 10 in the upper location and a Lii Audio W-15 which is a pure 15" woofer for bass on the lower. A couple of folks have implemented this configuration in their builds. You can find more information on the Decware forums if your interested.
NB
-
What NB said. :thumb:
-
Hello. I came to get help on something I don't know at all, I hope you will help me, thank you in advance for your help.
Lii audio drivers draw my attention, I am still thinking about whether I should buy crystal 10 or f 15. Since open baffle requires positioning and it is difficult to arrange a place for it, I do not intend to use this design. Which one would you recommend me to use with the cabinet? Crystal 10, Crystal 10 + W-15, F-15?
Hi,
In this case my strong preference are the F15 mainly due the gorgeous range performance from 100 to 400Hz where a big cone shine, not to mention the bass under 100Hz in the suited BR box.
I could suggest the Lii suited box(290L) with 1 or 2 round BR ducts or even better a bigger one.
-
Hi,
In this case my strong preference are the F15 mainly due the gorgeous range performance from 100 to 400Hz where a big cone shine, not to mention the bass under 100Hz in the suited BR box.
I could suggest the Lii suited box(290L) with 1 or 2 round BR ducts or even better a bigger one.
@nature boy
Thank you for your comment.
------------------
@FullRangeMan
I'll keep that in mind for the F15, thank you. What you're saying means you've confirmed this design, right?
https://www.lii-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/f-15-design.jpg
So what would it be like if a bf was designed with crystal 10 and W-15?
-
I'll keep that in mind for the F15, thank you. What you're saying means you've confirmed this design, right?
I have not listened this Lii box but since you have no space for a OB panel this project seems suited to you. My first option always could be a OB for the over 200-300Hz, but for bass I could prefer a hi efficiency woofer as Eminence Kappa 3015 in a 180L BR box, the Lii woofer seems anemic 91dB and expensive.
https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappalite_3015
The Lii 10'' and W15 in the same box will not work due different efficiency 91/99dB not to mention comb filter effect.
-
Would you recommend crystal 10 for open baffles?
-----
"The Lii 10'' and W15 in the same box will not work due different efficiency 91/99dB not to mention comb filter effect."
Is sensitivity as important as bf in the Open baffle project? I think the sensitivity of crystal 10 has been reduced to w15 in this project.
http://www.modelpromo.nl/The%20Liiondias%20Open%20Baffle%20Speaker.htm
"The Lii woofer seems anemic 91dB and expensive."
Why is Leon insistent on using w15? Is just sensitivity and power the point to look at when choosing a woofer?(when combining with these full range drivers) Sound characteristic etc?
Edit: I've learned this information, i don't know how accurate it is, but does it change anything?
W-15:
2.83V: 91.3dB (single voice coil)
2.83V: 95.6 dB (dual voice coil)
It's best to look at w-15 frequency analysis.
KAPPALITE 3015
Isn't performance in this area more important? Serious drop from 100hz to 50hz.
https://ibb.co/Vj4mGGh
-
Many questions, tô connect two drivers without xover correction the VC have tô be idêntical.
Só upon this If your amp work well I 4 ohms you could connect 2 F15 in parallel.
One for bass in a BR box, other tô OB over 200Hz.
-
Many questions, tô connect two drivers without xover correction the VC have tô be idêntical.
Só upon this If your amp work well I 4 ohms you could connect 2 F15 in parallel.
One for bass in a BR box, other tô OB over 200Hz.
Yes there were too many questions, sorry. Now I know what I want. All I want to know is whether the woofer you show as an example is the best option to match the crystal in this brand. If I want to build a cabinet with two speakers (crystal + woofer), what should the cabinet dimensions be? Thank you for giving a time.
https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappalite_3015
-
This Eminênce Woofer is my personal favorite what may not be your taste.
I have a 180L BR project I can pm you tommoroW.
-
For the Eminence I prefer a 180L slanted BR box.
-
The 10"" cone are só Light that the Woofer bass will distúrb the 10 cone movement, both in the same box are not recommended.
-
I'm receiving my Lii F15 OP speakers today from Randy!!!! Man it's been a heck of a month waiting but I'm stoked :D
Sorry, "Now back to your regular scheduled program"
-
Cancel that, UPS just notified me that it will be delayed for an additional day. :(
-
I suggest getting some extra sleep today and tonight because once you get you speakers from Randy, you can bet that you will have a few late nights of re-listening to your library of music and shaking your head at all the "music" you will hear.
-
I suggest getting some extra sleep today and tonight because once you get you speakers from Randy, you can bet that you will have a few late nights of re-listening to your library of music and shaking your head at all the "music" you will hear.
I am so ready for that, had my afternoon cleared today for it but alas I moved some things around to clear it for tomorrow.
Music will be playing non-stop... Send help
-
Here is a photo of my setup. Triode Labs SET 2A3 amp with a whooping 3.5watt drives them perfectly!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215328)
-
Woo!
-
Newbiee,
This is a project I made for this Eminence woofer:
Bass Reflex Slanted golden ratio 1 woofer only,
so you wont need braces, it may be slightly above average volume recommended, if possible use only 1 duct.
W 50cm
D 30cm top
D 50cm bot
H 80cm
Vol 160L
-
Here is a photo of my setup. Triode Labs SET 2A3 amp with a whooping 3.5watt drives them perfectly!
UPDATE: DELIVERED!
I will absolutely be sharing my setup once everything is dialed in and placed neatly. Now I just have to convince myself not to walk out of work right now and go hook them up. :?
-
Thank you fullrange. By the way, Lii's new 18 inch driver appeared.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001403012788.html
-
Thank you fullrange. By the way, Lii's new 18 inch driver appeared.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001403012788.html
but but but...... I just got the 15's :o
-
Too ambitious for full range. It makes me wonder what an 18-inch driver would be like in mid sound.
-
Those drivers aren’t even up on their website yet. Bleeding edge catch there!
-
I was just thinking the same. There has to be a balance and the sacrifice may be a little much.
-
A quick set up but instant difference :)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215351)
-
They look beautiful there, looks like they found a good home
-
My wife cannot stand music in the car passed a certain level, she said there's this background noise hum, a constant noise that leads to an overwhelming feeling.
Her description of the sound with these speakers are how clean they sound, the pause between each individual instrument, she described it as giving your ear a break between notes. I have the volume up past what would be her normal listening volume and she doesn't find these fatiguing AT ALL. Actually quite pleasant with every detail shining through individually.
I stood there in aw, our wives really do such a much better job describing this then we do LOL hahahaa
-
Wow this 18" FR are really making history in áudio, the Lii guys really found something.
SPL seems 95dB, freq range seems run til 12kHz, the performance will depend if the cone is Light, Qts seems ok for OB.
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/H6809566a9aee49d38b068ab54610a09cL.jpg_640x640Q90.jpg_.webp)
-
Mike,
Congratulations on your Caintuck Lii 15 speakers, they look great. A few thoughts for your consideration. First, if you're your floor is a hard surface (not carpeted) consider placing a throw rug in front of the speakers. This will reduce reflections given how close the driver is to the floor.
Second, play around with placement and direction of the speakers. Feedback from owners indicates at least 2' preferably 3' from the rear wall is optimal. Also adjust toe in differing amounts. Start with drivers pointed directly at your listening position, then move outward until you find the best balance and soundstage. I've like mine firing about 24" from the sides of my ears, YRMV.
Enjoy.
NB
-
Mike,
Congratulations on your Caintuck Lii 15 speakers, they look great. A few thoughts for your consideration. First, if you're your floor is a hard surface (not carpeted) consider placing a throw rug in front of the speakers. This will reduce reflections given how close the driver is to the floor.
Second, play around with placement and direction of the speakers. Feedback from owners indicates at least 2' preferably 3' from the rear wall is optimal. Also adjust toe in differing amounts. Start with drivers pointed directly at your listening position, then move outward until you find the best balance and soundstage. I've like mine firing about 24" from the sides of my ears, YRMV.
Enjoy.
NB
Thanks! I appreciate the feedback and look forward to dialing in these bad boys. I'm currently keeping them a minimal of 3ft away from the front wall keeping in mind to have some diffusion placed in between speaker and front wall. Later on after this pic was taken I did exactly as you suggested. I placed a chair in the center and directed both speakers towards the listening seat. Then began to slowly toe them outwards. My goal (probably the same as everyone) is to create a large sound stage. When I'm alone I'll be able to have a center seat but with guests and/or wife present they'll be like they are in the photo. Still pleasant to listen to but not exactly in the "sweet spot"
I TOTALLY hear you on the area rug for reflections, especially with my floors being terrazzo but I lost that battle :( might have to have one I can remove and place "as needed" LOL
-
Maybe two small throws that you can roll up in a hurry?😁
NB
-
Maybe two small throws that you can roll up in a hurry?😁
NB
I'm seriously looking into that RIGHT NOW. :thumb:
-
This is the Lii F12: Lii F-12 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33054370500.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.35.7dc33f81OWZ3FY&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.14976.156335.0&scm_id=1007.14976.156335.0&scm-url=1007.14976.156335.0&pvid=b660b516-ad4c-465e-b4a6-65314bdfee33&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.14976.156335.0,pvid:b660b516-ad4c-465e-b4a6-65314bdfee33,tpp_buckets:668%230%23131923%2392_668%23808%234094%23537_668%23888%233325%2314_4976%230%23156335%2319_4976%232711%237538%23830_4976%233104%239653%236_4976%234052%2318551%2375_4976%233141%239887%234_668%232846%238115%23817_668%232717%237564%23638_668%231000022185%231000066059%230_668%233422%2315392%23433_4452%230%23189858%230_4452%233474%2315675%23393_4452%233098%239599%2333_4452%233564%2316062%23723)
Seems the new F18 are no match for the F15:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215396)
-
I must say, I'm completely in love with these OB F15's and can I just mention the attention to detail on packaging!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215397)
-
These are very intriguing. Can they do rock. I am running Altecs now.
-
These are very intriguing. Can they do rock. I am running Altecs now.
I am running Altec Duplex’s, I also want to know how they compare.
-
I suspect power handling is 50W, SPL are 97dB.
A sub is needed if you wish deep bass às church organ.
-
My speakers made with 1.5in Birch hardwood from HomeDepot
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217071)
-
Dsaldivar
Please comment on the sound.
-
RonN5,
The sound is kind of thin, a little bit shouty. I have only about 125 hours of playing time, perhaps more playing time is required to get a fuller sound. It is detailed and the low frequencies I do not think go below 60 Hz. My amp and preamp are going to be substituted with a LTA Z10 Integrated and in about 3 weeks I will take delivery of Spatial Audio X5 set of speakers.
I bought the Lii speakers more out of curiosity than anything else. My experience with them is that they really need a subwoofer for the sound to be better integrated at all frequencies.
Dan
-
By the flat freq range chart the SQ could be great or...
-
Dan....
I know that Randy at Caintuck and Steve at Decware both say that the shape of their baffle is a critical part of the sound. I have no experience to say whether this makes sense or not.
It seems like 125 hours is plenty of time to get a decent idea of what the final sound will be like at the 200+ hour mark.
Maybe the 'shoutiness' is actually a lack of bass? What is the L,W, H of your room?
As for the X5s, it will be interesting to hear your report on them...I suspect they will be pretty impressive.
-
The F15 drivers in an open baffle are excellent speakers. You can change the sound a bit by adjusting the position of the speakers. I point the speakers about 24" outside the sides of my listening head position to get the best balance. While they don't produce deep bass, I have very satisfying bass response in my Caintuck Audio baffles. Placement of baffles on the floor are critical to decent bass response in these rather light weight hardwood baffles.
NB
-
Hi!
My room is 11x21x9 ft. I do not think the barrel shape really imparts a huge difference in the sound. It is possible that my 40w/c Parasound and tube preamplifier not really making justice to the Lii speakers. I will be able to see a difference if any with the LTA integrated.
Dan
-
I know that Randy at Caintuck and Steve at Decware both say that the shape of their baffle is a critical part of the sound. I have no experience to say whether this makes sense or not.
In my experience with the Carver Amazing the baffle shape mold the sound, other options are:
= use of wings as the Telefunken OB
= use of a small back open ''box'' as in the guitar combos
= placing the speaker low close to the floor or high will greatly modify the sound.
It seems like 125 hours is plenty of time to get a decent idea of what the final sound will be like at the 200+ hour mark.
+1
-
To revive an old thread, I just purchased a pair of Randy's 'Lil Audio F-15s second hand. I am hoping that they step up my audio game. I'm using DECWARE Monoliths
-
DECFACE,
What amp are you using to push your Monliths/Lii 15" speakers?
Have you tried the DM945 without the monolith bases? If so, how do they perform as bookshelves?
How are the Lii's working out for you?
Thanks for your thoughts.
-
Dan,
Did the LTA help out with the Lii 15's? Have you messed around with a sub at all?
-
I recently replaced the stock crap binding posts with some Cardas rhodium/gold plated copper posts. Was a PITA to do and I had to extend the voice coil wires but competed a couple hours ago and already sounding much better. Hers a shot without the screw down part (for spades)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220512)
-
Anyone try a 71a based amp with the f-15’s?
-
Did the spatial arrived? Would be nice to hear a comparison, altought it sounds a bit unfair :)
-
The F15 drivers in an open baffle are excellent speakers. You can change the sound a bit by adjusting the position of the speakers. I point the speakers about 24" outside the sides of my listening head position to get the best balance. While they don't produce deep bass, I have very satisfying bass response in my Caintuck Audio baffles. Placement of baffles on the floor are critical to decent bass response in these rather light weight hardwood baffles.
NB
Hello, NB. Thank you for sharing the info. I am based in Australia so not possible to get the Caintuck baffle from the USA. Hence, trying to build one with my novice DIY skills.
May I ask if the speaker needs to be tilted back a bit so sound travel towards ear level since it is very low in height or sits up 90 degree?
And, Is the base board necessary? I am thinking to put wooden chair legs so it sits upright without a baseboard but if it is not necessary to have a baseboard on the ground.
Thnak you in advance.
-
Decomo,
The baffles sound best placed directly on the floor. Some folks tilt them up slightly, maybe an inch or two by placing a small wedge under the front of the baffle. I use rubber and cork vibration pads. I orient to baffles with just a slight toe-in with the phase plug pointed about 18" from my ears. YRMV.
The bass board is absolutely critical to speaker performance as well as keeping the baffle stable.
I suggest you check out the Decware Audio forum for additional guidance. Several DIY'ers have posted builds on their F-15 baffles, along with schematics with measurements. This should give you a leg up on your build and information about materials. Also, if you have limited woodworking skills, consider getting a friend to do it for you. One additional point, the F-15 drivers sound best mounted from the rear of the baffle with a rounded edge baffle opening in the front. This requires use of a router.
So definitely check out the Decware Forum. Members are always very welcoming and helpful answering inquiries. Good luck.
NB
-
Seems this is it you are referring.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182037)
-
Anyone try a 71a based amp with the f-15’s?
Yes, My Sayes 71a amp paired with either my VTA SP14 pre, or my Triode Lab Au-pre sounds superb plenty of gain in my 13 X 16 room with 2v digital source