AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Sparks on 10 Jan 2006, 12:48 am

Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Sparks on 10 Jan 2006, 12:48 am
On another forum there is a sub-forum for gear costing > $20k.
A topic was posted asking for opinions on overpriced gear.
I posted that I thought Wilson Audio was\is overpriced.
I never said they were crap or anything, just overpriced and I honestly feel that way.
I've heard X-2s and the WATT\Puppy, properly set up etc.

Someone who owns Wilsons took exception, looked at my profile there and gave me
a jab with rolleyes because I listed Salk speakers(soon). I don't have them yet so I qualified it.

Actually it didn't bother me too much but I thought the guy was a bit immature and condescending.
I guess it raises this question, Why do quality products, no matter where they come from,
garner so little respect or even consideration among people who are supposed top be savvy\experienced about these things.

Believe me I'm no rocket scientist but after I heard 1801s and some other kit\direct market speakers
I was convinced of the value & outright superiority of the products.
Maybe this is pointless but I still find it mystifying.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: jermmd on 10 Jan 2006, 01:05 am
Sparks,

You know how I feel about the Salk speakers and I can tell you with certainty that they are at least comparable to very expensive speakers like Wilson. Wilson represents the prototype overpriced overhyped speaker. The AVS member who rolled his eyes has a huge amount invested in his speakers and takes it somewhat personally when people disrespect his Wilsons. If you had >$100k costing speakers, you wouldn't want people making disparaging comments about them either. He wasn't really commenting about the Salks (which he has never heard), he was rolling his eyes at "another Wilson basher." It was the $20k+ forum afterall and he is one of the primaries over there.

And despite that great bargains like Salk exist, you generally get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Marbles on 10 Jan 2006, 01:08 am
Quote from: Sparks
On another forum there is a sub-forum for gear costing > $20k.
A topic was posted asking for opinions on overpriced gear.
I posted that I thought Wilson Audio was\is overpriced.
I never said they were crap or anything, just overpriced and I honestly feel that way.
I've heard X-2s and the WATT\Puppy, properly set up etc.

Someone who owns Wilsons took exception, looked at my profile there and gave me
a jab with rolleyes because I listed Salk speakers(soon). I don't have them yet so I qualified it.
 ...


Guy spends lots of money to get immeadiate respect, you spend MUCH less, get better sound and better made and better looking cabinets.  If I were you, I wouldn't be insulted...I'd laugh at his ignorance, and your forsight in buying Salks.

Very few people know about Jim's products and the fact that each pair takes a pretty long time to gestate means that there won't be that many pairs out there even after a few years...and he doesn't advertise where most audiophiles would even hear about him.

It's just a case of your Wilson guy being ignorant.  His loss, your gain  :wink:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: zybar on 10 Jan 2006, 01:09 am
Exactly!

 :lol:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: JoshK on 10 Jan 2006, 01:14 am
my d**k is bigger than yours....same mentality.  Very weak correlation with good sound and higher prices above, say, $1k.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jan 2006, 01:19 am
Quote from: JoshK
my d**k is bigger than yours....same mentality..........


Josh,
From the look of your avatar, I'd say I doubt it...... :lol:   JK


At best this hobby/affliction is wrought with diminishing returns, especially if you don't find good value in the first place.  The Wilson folks buy Wilson because they can; and they very much want you to know that.  In fact, even if they are spectacular speakers, (and I've heard them sound good, not orgasmic, just good) the last $50k or so is worth 1%, and that's giving them a huge benefit of the doubt.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: GHM on 10 Jan 2006, 01:20 am
Looks like Marbles has said it all. It's amazing how ignorant having large amounts of money to blow makes some folks. You could ask some of them what type of crossover networks , drivers or anything else pertaining to the design of these speakers. Most couldn't tell you squat! :lol:

Who in the hell buys a car without knowing the options ??

Wilson owners of course!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: JoshK on 10 Jan 2006, 01:22 am
of course you could say the same thing about people who snub their nose at a DIY design versus a commercial design costing X times as much when they know little or nothing about what goes into each.  Looks aren't everything after all this is an *audio* hobby.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ekovalsky on 10 Jan 2006, 01:31 am
Last year I auditioned the MAXX2 and I didn't think it was a bad value at all.  And this is coming from someone who has criticized the value and sound quality of many previous Wilson speakers.  The cabinets no doubt cost a fortune to build, and the sound quality was awesome.

At about 3x the MSRP of the MAXX2, the X2 is pretty hard to explain.  Obviously it is a statement product that carries a very high price tag to maintain status and exclusivity.  This isn't any different from the top systems of other manufacturers -- Martin Logan, Kharma, VSA, Nola, JM Lab to name a few.  The good thing about the poor intrinsic value of such speakers it that they eventually surface for resale at small fractions of MSRP :mrgreen:

I would guess a high value speaker, like your Salks, would fetch 75% of more MSRP upon resale.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Bill Baker on 10 Jan 2006, 01:34 am
These are the same type of people that purchase Porsche 930 Slant Nose. They do it because they can. I am in no way knocking the esoteric gear out there and do respect people who can afford and enjoy it.

 I wrote some words about the difference between Audiophiles and Music lovers (and their systems) but I don't think this is the proper place to post it as I would not want to intrude on Jim's forum.

 All I can say right now is that being a speaker designer from way back, I agree with the thoughts posted so far :mrgreen:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: zybar on 10 Jan 2006, 01:39 am
Quote from: Response Audio
These are the same type of people that purchase Porsche 930 Slant Nose. They do it because they can. I am in no way knocking the esoteric gear out there and do respect people who can afford and enjoy it.

 I wrote some words about the difference between Audiophiles and Music lovers (and their systems) but I don't think this is the proper place to post it as I would not want to intrude on Jim's forum.

 All I can say right now is that being a speaker designer from way back, I agree with the thoughts posted so far :mrgreen:


Post away Bill.

George
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Bill Baker on 10 Jan 2006, 01:42 am
IF this is out of line, let me know and I will remove it Jim. (It mentions my company).


Audiophile or Music Lover - Where do you fit in

HOW NOT TO LISTEN TO MUSIC
(at least my views on the subject)

Okay.....where to start? It is my opinion that audio consumers fall within one of two categories, "Audiophiles" or "Music lovers". Let me explain.

 An audiophile seeks a system capable of portraying each individual piece of information separately as if it existed in it's own place in space and time. This goes much further than simply being able to distinguish individual instruments. It is my opinion that a system of this kind does not have the proper "blending" as you would experience at a live venue. There is a perfection in center imaging usually with an eight inch sweet spot, more emphasized detail than one cares to hear and the most unrealistic bass that I have never experienced at a live event. The problem? Move even slightly out of that sweet spot position and the whole illusion disappears. Overall, I find these types of systems dry, clinical and plain boring to listen to for any extended period of time. Yes, they do have the utmost level of detail, resolution and dynamics but simply do not sound "real" to me. No texture, no body, no realism.

This is what we have been brainwashed to believe as "accurate" musical reproduction by hi-fi rags and 'politically' run review sites. These systems can find, all to easily, any minute flaw in the recording, how fun is that? We already know 99% of all recordings are flawed one way or another. Who cares. Who wants to buy a system that makes only 1% of our recordings enjoyable? Yes, they may be theoretically correct in terms of measurements but we don't listen to measurements. Just look at how many reviewers and over paid marketing agents have coaxed people into buying overly analytical crap for ridiculous amounts of money, only to wind up selling it within 3 months because it didn't engage them in the MUSIC!! Duh. It is this high turnover that keeps the super exotic product manufacturers in business. Ask yourself this question, "do you want to listen to your components or your music"?

On the other hand we have the music lover, that's me, who focuses attention, not on a single piece of data within a recording, but to the presentation as a whole. Yes, you can hear all the information in the recording, the difference is in the delivery. The music should get inside of you and touch your soul. A good music system should provide you with every aspect of the recording but not "dissect" it and throw it at you in pieces. Response Audio is all about this type of consumer. I choose to hear my music the way it was meant to be heard, as close to a natural event as possible. I don't need or want an eight inch sweet "sweet spot". After all, what about those of us who actually have friends that we want to share our musical experiences with. "Okay, move over, it's my turn to listen". Give'me a break. I want a system that does not call to attention itself rather disappear allowing the music to flow. It should be smooth, enjoyable and non-fatiguing over long periods of time. Has a good center image that more than one person can enjoy at one time and most importantly, simply allows the music to get inside of me. Music is all about emotion. If you want to walk away talking about how perfect your components are, buy an audiophile system, if you want to walk away understanding what the artist was feeling and trying to portray, put together a music system that allows the music to get inside of you. That's what Response Audio is all about! Emotion!

I can promise you that most enjoyable music systems will not measure perfectly but if they give us pleasure in our musical ventures, that's all that matters. Yes? This is not to say that systems sold, designed or modified by Response Audio do not measure very good, just not analytically perfect.

I realize many will not agree with these thoughts and they may even irritate some of you but please realize that these are my personal opinions and preferences only. I only want to allow others to understand the philosophy of Response audio and how our systems are meant to be understood. I mean no disrespect to the Audiophile community and the companies that cater to them. After all, my personal quote..........

"Build your system for yourself, not the critics"
Title: Re: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: skrivis on 10 Jan 2006, 01:59 am
Quote from: Sparks
On another forum there is a sub-forum for gear costing > $20k.
A topic was posted asking for opinions on overpriced gear.
I posted that I thought Wilson Audio was\is overpriced.
I never said they were crap or anything, just overpriced and I honestly feel that way.
I've heard X-2s and the WATT\Puppy, properly set up etc.

Someone who owns Wilsons took exception, looked at my profile there and gave me
a jab with rolleyes because I listed Salk speakers(soon). I don't have them yet so I qualified it.
 ...


Should have told him he's lucky... if I had been responding to that question in a forum for $20K+ gear I'd have said, "all of it." :)

Any gear costing that much money better come with a good string quartet for my living room. :)

Seriously, you could hire musicians to perform in your living room quite a few times before you'd eat up the thousands of dollars you would have overpaid for those boutique Wilson speakers.

Hell, I could buy season tickets for Severance Center and hire a sedan chair to carry me into the hall for that much money. Just think how impressive _that_ would be! :)
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Sparks on 10 Jan 2006, 02:09 am
Quote
I want a system that does not call to attention itself rather disappear allowing the music to flow. It should be smooth, enjoyable and non-fatiguing over long periods of time. Has a good center image that more than one person can enjoy at one time and most importantly, simply allows the music to get inside of me.

Duh! :)
Gee, I didn't expect such quick responses let alone such erudite ones.
I've made a mental note not to visit that > $20k forum any further as it is pretty much predictable & tired.....

Sorry, took a break to listen to the music coming from the other room.
Wow, I don't even my Salk's yet and I can still get immersed.
I go swimming, water run all over me
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Bill Baker on 10 Jan 2006, 02:18 am
Okay, I feel I have to make a few more statements before responses on my post start coming though.

 My finding are "based" on the products and habits of listeners and not always about the money paid for these products. I have to admit that there are some truly exceptional products that I still find justifiable at their high price tags and would purchase myself if funds were not an issue.
I have 4 kids, a house, an [expensive] wife, etc. and still drive around in a beat up 88 S-10 Blazer.

 I don't want anyone to believe I do not appreciate some of the higher price gear out there. After all, I would give your left leg for some of the Audio Note amps :lol:
Title: all the money i spent is not worth it?
Post by: RIKMEISTER on 10 Jan 2006, 02:49 am
you mean the 60,00 i spent on my speakers for my aston martin was not worth it.  Oh my god, hehehe.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: DMurphy on 10 Jan 2006, 04:35 pm
Quote from: Response Audio
Okay, I feel I have to make a few more statements before responses on my post start coming though.

I guess I would take a little exception to the notion that "audiophile" speakers measure well, at least within a narrow window, but "musical" speakers won't.  That's probably an overstatement of your position, but it does describe a certain school of thought.  I'm fascinated with speaker design both from a technical standpoint and a musical stanpoint.  I've spent a good part of my life playing in various orchestras, and listening to them--and to me the whole notion of having Mozart emerge relatively unscathed from an MDF box is a major modern miracle.  But how well he emerges depends on solid scientific principles.  If a speaker sounds dry and irritating, there is probably something wrong with the power response.  On the other hand, if the meaured performance has obvious flaws, you will hear them as colorations, even though you might enjoy some of them--at least some of the time on some music.  The real unsettled issue, IMHO, is just where the highs should be voiced.  I try to design speakers that can be adjusted (particularly down) in the highs without compromising driver integration and phase relationships.  But I have yet to be happy with a design--mine or anyone else's--that has basic flaws in the measurements.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ctviggen on 10 Jan 2006, 04:50 pm
While I have always liked Wilsons, they are over priced.  What are the Watt Puppies up to now?  17k?  

As for speaker measurements, I like them (though I don't know what a power response is).  But I think like anything else, they have to be understood to be used.  For instance, I'm reading a book called "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook."  In it, the author references a figure and states that the figure obviously indicates an improved transient response (as compared to another close-box design).  Darn if I could figure out why that figure indicated an improved transient response.  So, speaker measurements are like statistics:  great in the hands of someone who knows something and dangerous or wrong in the hands of someone who doesn't.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ctviggen on 10 Jan 2006, 05:14 pm
As for the amplitude frequency response of Wilsons, here's an entire thread arguing about the same:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=f16e20b37c7e0fdf36e27c385bc5fcd5&threadid=69687&highlight=
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: skrivis on 10 Jan 2006, 05:39 pm
Quote from: ctviggen
While I have always liked Wilsons, they are over priced.  What are the Watt Puppies up to now?  17k?  

As for speaker measurements, I like them (though I don't know what a power response is).  But I think like anything else, they have to be understood to be used.  For instance, I'm reading a book called "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook."  In it, the author references a figure and states that the figure obviously indicates an improved transient response (as compared to another close-box design).  Darn if  ...


Frequency response is measured on axis, like right in front of the speakers. Power response is a series of measurements at different points and shows how the speaker plays into the room, so to speak.

I ran across various stuff on the net via Google, but here's a short description that should give you a start: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/posting.php?mode=quote&p=218380
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: skrivis on 10 Jan 2006, 05:46 pm
I do have to say that I don't really have anything against very expensive luxury goods or the people that buy them. If they work better or please you more, go for it. :)

I'm not at all convinced that very expensive audio gear always works better, and it certainly seems like the audio mags spend too much time reviewing the expensive stuff most people can't afford.

Everything that I have seen about the Wilson stuff though, says to me that it's simply expensive. :)
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Papajin on 10 Jan 2006, 08:47 pm
So is the Wilson stuff basically Boutique Bose?  Better sound through hype?
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: zybar on 10 Jan 2006, 08:59 pm
Quote from: Papajin
So is the Wilson stuff basically Boutique Bose?  Better sound through hype?


NO!!

While I agree that it is overpriced, the Wilson products are extremely well built and do produce good sound.

Do I like their house sound?  Not really.

Would I buy a pair?  Nope.

But please don't think compare Wilson to Bose.

George
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Rob Babcock on 10 Jan 2006, 10:04 pm
If you can get get great sound for a million bucks, how about a trillion?  At some point we've put all the science and real technology we have into a product- spending more will just be wasting it.  Problem is no one seems to agree where that price point is.  And naturally, many expensive products don't incorporate any advanced or useful technology; they're merely inefficiently produced or priced to reflect an enormous ad budget.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: miklorsmith on 10 Jan 2006, 10:39 pm
Wilson = Bose for guys with deeper pockets!?   :lol:

Considering the allegations against Wilson buyers not being sophisticated nor understanding their speakers, I'd say the comparison is amusing or more.  Combine that with the fact that lots of audioheads don't like how they sound. . .You can get a Lifestyle system for what?  $1,000?  Are the Wilsons 20x or 60x or 140x better?

I don't actually think they're the same, but they are both fronted by gifted marketing, considered overpriced by those "in the know", and their buyers are ignoramuses, according to the illuminati.

 :lol:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: PhilNYC on 10 Jan 2006, 10:47 pm
Quote from: Rob Babcock
If you can get get great sound for a million bucks, how about a trillion?  .


For a trillion, I'd just pay the Boston Symphony to have an orgy with no birth control, then adopt all the resulting kids...  :lol:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Rob Babcock on 10 Jan 2006, 10:48 pm
Quote from: PhilNYC
Quote from: Rob Babcock
If you can get get great sound for a million bucks, how about a trillion?  .


For a trillion, I'd just pay the Boston Symphony to have an orgy with no birth control, then adopt all the resulting kids...  :lol:


Sort of the opposite to "instant gratification", though!   :lol:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: PhilNYC on 10 Jan 2006, 10:51 pm
Quote from: Rob Babcock

Sort of the opposite to "instant gratification", though!   :lol:


Great systems do take time to build.... :lol:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Rob Babcock on 10 Jan 2006, 11:13 pm
Just remember a few will sport nose rings and play Linkin Park. :wink:
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: _scotty_ on 11 Jan 2006, 12:43 am
What most people in this hobby don't realize is that when more money is spent in expectation of superior sound it is not an assured outcome.
What is required is brains applied to producing a better sounding product.
More money won't buy a smarter designers efforts. There appears to no relationship between money spent and sonic results at all.  
You don't always get what you pay for in this hobby.
Scotty
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: jermmd on 11 Jan 2006, 01:19 am
The Wilson owner who this thread originally referred to knows music, has been in this hobby for a long time, and has owned a ton of equipment. His system may cost what many of us consider an obscene amount of money, so much so that it actually offends people, but I have no doubt that he has amazing sound in his listening room. He has had many experienced audiophiles to his home and they have universally praised his system. That doesn't mean his system is better than mine but it does deserve the respect of people like us who appreciate the quest for audio nirvana.

I have found what I think is the best for me and I often think my system is better than other people's rigs. Not because my system is expensive-it is to me-but because I know it and I like it. The guy with the expensive system is no worse than the guy with the great sounding budget system who looks down upon those "fools" who overpaid for their system.

Does that make sense?
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Bill Baker on 11 Jan 2006, 01:33 am
Quote
Does that make sense?


 That's makes perfect sense. As I mentioned in my post, I have my preferences and voice my products in that direction but also appreciate all other gear no matter what the cost.

 Wilson is a different animal. He will personall state that his speakers are "theoretically" perfect. His finishes are state of the art and I have no doubt they sound amazing. Maybe not my flavor, but amazing non-the-less.

 We need not put down those who have expensive audio systems rather share in their passion in this great hobby.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: davei on 11 Jan 2006, 03:55 am
Quote from: PhilNYC
Quote from: Rob Babcock

Sort of the opposite to "instant gratification", though!   :lol:


Great systems do take time to build.... :lol:


but a lifetime to enjoy, no matter the cost,  the music only matters!  money don't buy good sound. we do, what i like may not sound good to you? why does it matter what we spend! you have to make yourself happy! i can give you IMHO, but what does that mean to you nothing, why YOU should hear it for yourself!
BTW i  want  to hear the Salk's!
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: GHM on 11 Jan 2006, 06:17 am
I can sympathize to some degree with you guys. The part that gets me with some not all of these fellows. Are the ones that post stating " Looking for a preamp that cost $15,000" or something to that effect. I'm always puzzled by this. It's fairly obvious this guy is just looking for some gear to out do one of his buddys whose system he has seen or heard but really knows nothing about. Let's get this straight.... He's looking for a peice of gear for an exact amount of money but hasn't heard any of it. :o

I've been lucky enough to have been a jack of several trades and the master of none  :lol: . When I worked in telecommunications . I got a chance to meet many people and be in their homes from the east coast  to the west coast. I've been in thousands of homes from the rich to the poor.

There has been many times where the guy with that mentality that I'm refering to, felt as though he was being ripped off because I didn't charge  enough. I've had other techs in the same business to admit charging these type of people more, because the person didn't feel secure being charged less.  Now does that make any sense? It doesn't too me! :?
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Rob Babcock on 11 Jan 2006, 06:26 am
Yep.  A certain segment of people define themselves and their self esteem by how much money they spend.  Truly these people "know the price of everything and the value of nothing."
Title: preamps?
Post by: nathanm on 11 Jan 2006, 08:07 pm
I thought the "Ultimate Preamp" wasn't really a preamp at all, but simply two resistors.  Why would you pay $15,000 for that?  Switching sources?

This is the paradox of hifi that I see, you spend more to get more; more metal casework, more circuitry, more parts, better parts...which makes sense.  But then they say that the simplest path sounds the best so shouldn't better sound cost less?  If you're spending $15,000 you must want it do Do Something to the sound, so it should add an effect of one kind or another, right?  So how could an expensive system sound more like real music with so much more 'stuff' in the path?  I don't get it.

As long as you're spending money on cosmetics and wow factor I'm cool with high dollar stuff, but I don't quite get how if maximum transparency and the least harm done to the signal is the goal, that you need to spend crazy money.  Wouldn't it be best to jack your CD player direct to your amp and accept whatever loud SPLs come out?
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: jsalk on 12 Jan 2006, 03:42 am
Quote from: GHM
There has been many times where the guy with that mentality that I'm referring to, felt as though he was being ripped off because I didn't charge enough. I've had other techs in the same business to admit charging these type of people more, because the person didn't feel secure being charged less. Now does that make any sense? It doesn't too me!


How true!

Just yesterday (really , yesterday) I was talking to a high-end cabinet maker in the complex I have my shop in.  He told me he thought I should raise my prices dramatically.  To illustrate this his point, he related the incident that resulted in his pricing strategies.  Here was his story:

A couple earning about $400K per year paid him a visit and asked him if he could design a dining table for them.

He generated a design that they loved.  When they asked him how much it would cost, he said it was quite labor-intensive and could cost as much as $15,000 to produce.  He never heard from them again.

A few weeks later, a "design consultant" paid him a visit.  She had a client that wanted a very high-end dining table.  She showed him some drawings.

Of course, they were his original drawings.  The only thing that changed was that his name was removed from them.

He looked at the drawings and told her he thought the design was very nice (he didn't mention that he was the original designer).  He told her it would be expensive to produce - about $20,000.

She said, "Fine, here's a check for $5000 down.  Give them an invoice for $25,000 - $20,000 for you and $5000 for me."

While the couple knew that the person who built their new table was the same person they had originally received the $15,000 quote from, they never acknowledged the fact and never complained.

His point was that they did not want a $15,000 table.  They wanted something better.  They wanted a $25,000 table and were happy to pay extra to get what they wanted.

Would HT3's sound better if they cost $15,000 - $20,000 per pair like other speakers with similar drivers?  Of course not.  But I bet there would be some who might regard them as superior.  

Price increases go into effect on June 1st  :) .

- Jim
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: zybar on 12 Jan 2006, 03:47 am
Well to each their own...

I will be VERY happy getting the $25,000 table for $5,000!!  :wave:

Keep up the great work Jim.

George
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ekovalsky on 12 Jan 2006, 05:21 am
Quote from: jermmd
The Wilson owner who this thread originally referred to knows music, has been in this hobby for a long time, and has owned a ton of equipment. His system may cost what many of us consider an obscene amount of money, so much so that it actually offends people, but I have no doubt that he has amazing sound in his listening room. He has had many experienced audiophiles to his home and they have universally praised his system. That doesn't mean his system is better than mine but it does deserve the respect of p ...


Steve is a great guy and true audiophile.  He is partly to thank for my current speakers, which were previously owned by one of his neighbors.

He no doubt got a nice deal on his pair of X2 since he has been a customer of Wilson and a particular dealer for a long time.  Still they cost bank and the inference that his babies were not a great value hit a nerve, not unexpectedly.  

I'm sure he'd love the opportunity to hear the Salks and would no doubt be as impressed with them as everyone else has been.

Next time I go to the bay area I plan on inviting myself to hear the latest iteration of his system, and also the Rockport Hyperions that the former owner of my Alons now has.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ekovalsky on 12 Jan 2006, 05:24 am
Funny story Jim.  All I can say is those people are morons, glad you can make them a nice table and bank an extra $5k!

I guess I'm a cheapskate at heart.  Whatever I buy -- audio, jewelry, autos, etc -- I always try to it at the lowest possible price.  It's all about value !  Paying more just to brag about the high price never made sense to me.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: DMurphy on 13 Jan 2006, 12:24 am
>Price prices go into effect June 1.

Oh--and Jim--I think you should change the dcr in the second tweeter shunt inductor to .4 ohms.  That will be $15,000.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: jsalk on 13 Jan 2006, 01:16 am
Dennis -

The check is in the mail. Happy to oblige.

- Jim
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: GHM on 13 Jan 2006, 02:20 am
Jim,

This is off topic. I'm curious if you do any custom cabinet work? I've salivated over your speaker's cabinets for quite some time. Could you or would you build custom cabs for other speakers with the proper schematics? I would try it myself but couldn't possibly make cabinets as beautiful as what I've seen you make.
By the way I'm a customer that's not concerned with paying more to be satisfied. :lol:

Thanks
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: jsalk on 13 Jan 2006, 03:48 am
GHM -

I do quite often build cabinets for speakers other than ours.  The only caveat is that delivery may take time.  If you have plans (cabinet drawings I can work from), time and an adequate budget (I'm reasonalbe, not cheap), perhaps it would be possible.

- Jim
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: GHM on 13 Jan 2006, 09:22 am
:lol: Thanks Jim ..that's what I wanted to know. Reasonable is good with me. When I get everything together, I will send you the plans so you can give me an estimate on the cost. Not looking for something free just sensible. :wink:

Thanks again
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: ctviggen on 13 Jan 2006, 02:07 pm
I think that Wilson is one of those companies (like, perhaps, Jeff Rowland), that produce the equivalent of sonic jewelry.  Now, I happen to like both Wilson and Jeff Rowland, but I do think both are overpriced for what one gets.  I don't begrudge or belittle anyone for buying them, however (including me, as I own a JR amp).  

The DIY thread about Wilsons was interesting to me, though, from the standpoint of choosing speakers based on frequency response curves in an anechoic chamber.  I'm not sure how valid of an argument that is.  While the scientist in me loves data, I'm not sure that one should choose speakers based on only one data point (what about efficiency; transient response; etc.).  The artist in me (sadly, an atrophied part of myself) also believes in listening/touching/looking.   There has to be some happy medium, and the DIY thread tended toward the more scientific analysis using a single data point.  I'm not sure that's valid.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: texas steve on 13 Jan 2006, 04:46 pm
Quote from: GHM
:lol: Thanks Jim ..that's what I wanted to know. Reasonable is good with me. When I get everything together, I will send you the plans so you can give me an estimate on the cost. Not looking for something free just sensible. :wink:

Thanks again


Hey,, dont keep him to busy, I want him to keep working on my Ht3s!!!
Title: Re: preamps?
Post by: Q on 23 Jan 2006, 03:04 pm
"Paying more just to brag about the high price never made sense to me."

Tell that to the millions of Harley Davidson owners out there!
Title: Re: preamps?
Post by: texas steve on 23 Jan 2006, 04:06 pm
Quote from: Q
"Paying more just to brag about the high price never made sense to me."
Tell that to the millions of Harley Davidson owners out there!


Yep, but they are GREAT bikes!  Ive owned Jap and American bikes, and in the end there is nothing like a Harley!!
Title: Re: preamps?
Post by: Q on 25 Jan 2006, 01:20 pm
Quote from: texas steve
Quote from: Q
"Paying more just to brag about the high price never made sense to me."
Tell that to the millions of Harley Davidson owners out there!


Yep, but they are GREAT bikes!  Ive owned Jap and American bikes, and in the end there is nothing like a Harley!!


Well, I see the MOTOR COMPANY has lulled another lemming to the crowd!  THANK GOD there is nothing like them, or we'd all be stuck with 1930's bike technology.  If audio kept that pace, you'd have your ear in the horn of an Edison cylinder player!  I've been on 5 Harleys, and frankly it made me ashamed to be an American.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: zybar on 25 Jan 2006, 01:33 pm
Ok, let's try and stay on topic or please move the motorcycle talk to the Sports Bar Circle.

Thanks,

George
Title: Re: preamps?
Post by: texas steve on 25 Jan 2006, 01:33 pm
Quote from: Q
Quote from: texas steve
Quote from: Q
"Paying more just to brag about the high price never made sense to me."
Tell that to the millions of Harley Davidson owners out there!


Yep, but they are GREAT bikes!  Ive owned Jap and American bikes, and in the end there is nothing like a Harley!!


Well, I see the MOTOR COMPANY has lulled another lemming to the crowd!  THANK GOD there is nothing like them, or we'd all be stuck with 1930's bike technology.  If audio kept that pace, you'd have your ear in ...


Well, I guess we shall agree to disagree!   That's the great thing about being an American, there are so many choices that we all can be happy!
Now go forth and have a GREAT DAY!
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: Q on 25 Jan 2006, 04:36 pm
Quote from: zybar
Ok, let's try and stay on topic or please move the motorcycle talk to the Sports Bar Circle.

Thanks,

George


Sorry, but I thought the original analogy was relevant to the discussion.
Title: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
Post by: zybar on 25 Jan 2006, 04:47 pm
I was ok with the analogy...I just didn't want it going down the road of US vs. Japaneese products or turn into a heated debate.

George