RM/x's delivered Friday night

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tkp

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #20 on: 16 Jun 2004, 01:55 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
Thanks, TKP.  So, now I just need to figure out how to put the JR to 32 db and to adjust the pot down by 3db.  And, to order some cables.


I asked BC about the range of the pot in the past (for my pair of RM40) and he indicated to me that the range is about 5 db.  You should be okay to pad it down 3 db.

ctviggen

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #21 on: 16 Jun 2004, 04:23 pm »
One more question:  The Bryston lists "polarity" as "non-inverting," but the #10 lists "absolute phase" as "phase-inverted".  Wouldn't this mean that a sound that has amplitude in both the mids and the lows would be inverted by the #10 but not inverted by the Bryston?

Thanks!

tkp

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #22 on: 16 Jun 2004, 04:29 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
One more question:  The Bryston lists "polarity" as "non-inverting," but the #10 lists "absolute phase" as "phase-inverted".  Wouldn't this mean that a sound that has amplitude in both the mids and the lows would be inverted by the #10 but not inverted by the Bryston?

Thanks!


All you need to do is invert the connection of the JR at the speaker input posts.  + of the JR should go to - at the input of the speaker and vice versa.

ctviggen

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #23 on: 16 Jun 2004, 04:36 pm »
Ah!  So true!  Sometimes I can't see the obvious!

tkp

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #24 on: 16 Jun 2004, 04:57 pm »
I think I need to have my head check out for making stupid suggestions.

A better choice of connection would be.

Leave the JR gain at 26 db and adjust the pot to add 3db gain to the midrange/tweeter conection.  This way you will burn less power accross the LPAD for the mid/high connection.  By default the midrange pannel has higher sensitivity than the woofers so its crossover already included some pad down already.  The last thing you need  is to pad it down even more.

ctviggen

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #25 on: 16 Jun 2004, 05:18 pm »
Well, that would make it even easier, as I wouldn't have to open the JR to adjust the gain.  And if I used the JR on the lows and the Bryston on the highs, I could adjust the gain of the JR higher and still use your technique of adjusting the mids/highs up. I think I'll try the JR on the mids/highs for now and see how that goes.

Pocketchange

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Right Channel heavy with Bass
« Reply #26 on: 17 Jun 2004, 12:23 am »
Mr. BC,
    You've brought something up that I've been dealing with thinking something was amiss with my rather pedestrian set-up.  Not only didn't I now that the right channel was loaded for bass, but thought the EQ I'm using had something breaking down internally.  I was just getting ready to ship it off to the manf to have them give it a check.  If you could  discuss this a little.

Thanks in advance,
 
pc

ted_b

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Re: pr's
« Reply #27 on: 18 Jul 2004, 06:27 am »
Quote from: Brian Cheney
APOGEE's PR's are vitrified high compliance.  All future RM/X will use this configuration and current owners will be supplied asap at no charge.

Why this room sounded so good is beyond my understanding.  No damping beyond rug and some upholstery, plastic vertical blinds behind the speakers. big equipment rack inbetween.  

Setup took one hour, but the sound was excellent from the start.  The system was biamped with a 200W Krell for the bass and a similar power Denon SS for the mid/treble.  There was a  ...


I had an audio buddy of mine over tonight, and we listened to the RM/X's for an extended period.  He convinced me that what has been bothering me about the RM/X's lately is the collapse of the soundstage toward the center, and so we "untoed them" from the "toe in so that they crossfire two feet in front of you" (probably something like 30 degree angles) to something more like 5-10 degrees angled, and the soundstage opened up considerably.  What am I missing here?  Why, in my room, do the RM/X's have a better soundstage when played almost parallel to the side walls?  I'll describe my room dimensions if anyone cares....thx,
Ted_B

ekovalsky

RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #28 on: 18 Jul 2004, 07:32 am »
I remember the first CAD drawing I did for you, I had them firing straight ahead...  :idea:

Next week I have to move everything out of my room for new carpeting to go down, crown moldings on the ceiling and drapery fabric on the walls.  I still have my pair in a crossfire setup, but when the speakers go back in I have a few other configurations I want to try.

How have the new passive radiators worked out for you?  And how much putty have you added or removed?  

Did your buddy like the RM/X ?

ted_b

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #29 on: 18 Jul 2004, 02:38 pm »
Eric,
Yes, they were, weren't they! :)

I became overcome wtith the crossfire idea and now really need to experiment with every degree in between.

The new pr's sound great!  The addition of the new pr's, the increase to 1pm on the l-pads of both the tweets and the mids,  and the tweaking of putty (about a small pea on each) has helped tremendously with the bass response and smoothness across the spectrum.  The soundstage is all I'm working on now.

My buddy loved the sound, but thought the soundstage was wayyyyy too constricted to the center.   We tunred them almost parallel (straight firing) and the soundstage certainly changed, for the better in most aspects, but the tweeters seem to be a little lost aimed down the room instead of at my ears.  Jury is still out in a big way, though.

ekovalsky

RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #30 on: 18 Jul 2004, 06:42 pm »
I've been impressed with the new woofers too.  No dramatic change, but on well recorded live music the "ambience" is even better and percussion, synth bass, and organ have a bit more weight and impact.  With the added mass from the glue solids I expected to have more putty removed compared with the first woofer set.  Instead, I now have just a small pea-size chunk off from each PR and they seem to be dialed in.  With the old woofers I had about a small marble size chunk off...

Mass loading on the passive driver and its interaction with the other drivers is a complex system that I haven't been able to completely explain or understand.  

:scratch:

Did you ever sell the old SuperTowers?  I don't suppose you miss them much if you have  :wink:






Quote from: ted_b
Eric,
Yes, they were, weren't they! :)

I became overcome wtith the crossfire idea and now really need to experiment with every degree in between.

The new pr's sound great!  The addition of the new pr's, the increase to 1pm on the l-pads of both the tweets and the mids,  and the tweaking of putty (about a small pea on each) has helped tremendously with the bass response and smoothness across the spectrum.  The soundstage is all I'm working on now.

My buddy loved the sound, but thought the soundsta ...

John Casler

Re: pr's
« Reply #31 on: 18 Jul 2004, 08:49 pm »
Quote from: ted_b
  I had an audio buddy of mine over tonight, and we listened to the RM/X's for an extended period. He convinced me that what has been bothering me about the RM/X's lately is the collapse of the soundstage toward the center, and so we "untoed them" from the "toe in so that they crossfire two feet in front of you" (probably something like 30 degree angles) to something more like 5-10 degrees angled, and the soundstage opened up considerably. What am I missing here? Why, in my room, do the RM/X's have a better soundstage when played almost parallel to the side walls? I'll describe my room dimensions if anyone cares....thx,
Ted_B
   .


Hi Ted,  It is not so much the angle of toe in, as it is the angle of "convergence" to the sweet spot and the angle of deflection/reflection to the side walls.

The angle of convergence you select will depend on the type of listneing you do, the distance from the speaker, and your listening preferences.

Because of the limited dispersion of the ribbons, you can sit well away from them with excellent results, but listening "off axis" (in either direction) will slightly "soften" and "warm" the sound.

This is what might be confusing to those who hear people say that they are running their pots at 2:00 :o , which sounds too HI, until you realize that they have set the speaker up to converge 2 feet in front of them, or two feet behind them, and sit 12 feet away.

For the ultimate in detail, sit nearfeild, on axis, and adjust the pots to taste (generally around 11:00-12:00)

For more warmth or to reduce harsh electronics, sit further away, converge in front of, or behind you, and dial the pots up (probably to 1:00 plus)

If your sidewalls are acoustically treated, the width of soundstage will be determined by how wide your speakers are placed.  Occasionally certain CD's may sound wider due to phase relationships in the recording that shift perception outside the speaker width.

If your sidewalls are not acoustically treated, then side reflection can also provide this perception, generally at the expense of sound quality (IMO).

In judging "soundstage" width, use a wide variety of material.

Generally solo vocals like Diana Krall, Nora Jones, James Taylor, Michael Buble, or whoever will be "dead center" with many of the instruments at various places on the soundstage.

Orchestral works should have a complete speaker to speaker soundstage, with at least the ability to tell where the violin section, the Cellos, and Bass Violins, and various brass and woodwind instruments are placed over the width of the stage and even to a degree to the depth of the stage.

The "amplitude" or volume of all the instruments from stage right to stage left, should be reasonably consistant.

Properly set up there should be "blackness" in between "single" instruments on most jazz, rock, or studio recordings.  Sometimes (too frequently) the engineers will "flavor" the track with echo enhancement, which with the VMPS resolving powers is quite evident, so some of that will fill the blackness.

But I guess the general rules to remember are:

1) pots are dialed up or down depending on how "on axis" or "off axis", you are.  More on axis = lower, More off axis = higher

2) pots are adjusted up or down depending on how near or far you are from the speaker.  Near = down  Far = up

3) pots are adjusted up or down depending on room interaction.  Acoustically deadened room as in limited reflection = pots down, Acoutically reflective room which "sprays you with reflected highs = pots up

While the last one may seem opposite of what you might think, the resulting masking/blurring of highs by reflected highs require a "boost" to cause your brain to get the same "detail level" out of the sonic haze created by the reflections.

Hope some of that might help in your exploration of convergence angles and expected results.

ted_b

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RM/x's delivered Friday night
« Reply #32 on: 19 Jul 2004, 02:30 pm »
Quote from: ekovalsky
I've been impressed with the new woofers too.  No dramatic change, but on well recorded live music the "ambience" is even better and percussion, synth bass, and organ have a bit more weight and impact.  With the added mass from the glue solids I expected to have more putty removed compared with the first woofer set.  Instead, I now have just a small pea-size chunk off from each PR and they seem to be dialed in.  With the old woofers I had about a small marble size chunk off...

Mass loading on the passive ...


Yes, I sold them to a fellow who drove from Baltimore area to Cleveland area to pick them up ...and then drive right back.   Oh, and I don't miss them...although he got a great great deal on a great pair of speakers. :wink:

I now have the RM/X's set up exactly to the dimensions as per your CAD drawing (did it initially but they were too new, I guess) and the soundstage has opened up by an order of magnitude and also gotten much deeper.  I may tweak from here (l-pads, etc) but right now just loving the sound and evaluating some new cables (Audience Au24, Nirvana S-L) and some new power cords for my Tubedac+ (Shunyata Diamondback, Wireworld Aurora).

Thanks for your persistence..... :D
Ted_B