Up to 200 times more expensive, is it 200 times sonically better ? ? ?

Guy 13 · « **on:** 3 Jul 2010, 11:35 am »

Hi all.

Up to 200 times more expensive, is it 200 times sonically better ? ? ?

6L6/5881 (39.95 USD/pair) vs KT88 (63.95 USD/pair)
SE integrated amplifier (SE-15 @ 995 USD by Niteshade Audio
+ V2 from GR Research less 2,000 USD/pair) vs
monobloc/pre-amplifier/DAC/bi-amp./three ways speakers. (10,000 USD + )
Signal Cable Silver Resolution (99 USD/pair/2’) vs TARA Labs The Zero Gold (19,900 USD)
Signal cable, Ultra speaker cable OFC (109 USD/pair/6’) vs Audioquest wild wood 11,600 USD/8’
Rega P-3 (895 USD) vs Rega P-9 4,995 USD)
Rega Exact MM (375 USD) vs Apheta MC (1,795 USD) + step up transformer (500 USD).
Rega Apollo CD player (995 USD) vs Rega Isis CD Player (8,995 USD)
Beyer Dynamic DT-990PRO headphones (200 USD) vs Sennheiser HD-800 (1,400 USD)
Think what you want, but 19,900 USD for interconnect this is legalized robbery !
Guy 13.

decal · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 11:43 am »

Here's a cheap,risk free idea,don't buy them.

dangerbird · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 12:03 pm »

Nope--lots of folks spend $$$$$$$$ trying to get that last 5%,,it's all about price/performance,,synergy and what sounds good to you.

rollo · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 02:33 pm »

For some price is an issue. For others it is not. In my case as an example we have tried numerous DACs and CDPs that cost anywhere a pittance compared to our reference CDP. in the end some were very close in sonic merrits most were not. Was the sound worth the expenditure ? For us it was. Better is better. Was it twice as good according to price ? NO no and no. However for us that little bit is what did it. We are talking $3300 [ now $5500] for our reference CDP a Lector CDP7TL. Examples of lessor players such as the Bryston, PS Audio, Altman, Audio Note, Oritek, OppoSE, modded Art DIO, Arcam and several others.
We would purchase the newer one for $5500 but the Mk1 with the older chip sounds better to us. Go figure.
C'mon guys if you could afford the world class gear you would have it. I believe it is just that simple. Just like anything else in life. Money talks BS walks. BTW we are not millionaires just the average Joe.

charles

JAMn Joe · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 03:06 pm »

Robbery implies you don't have a choice, something is forcefully taken away from you and you get nothing in return.

With audio, while some things may be extremely expensive and their may be great or minimal differences between the least expensive vs. the most expensive item. You still have a choice and you walk a way with an item of your choosing.

Your perceived value dictates to you what is an acceptable price point for you, others may or may not agree with the point you don't want to go beyond but that doesn't mean other are wrong for doing it or they're not getting a value going beyond that point. They may want that additional sound that can only be gotten by purchase the more expensive piece. It's their choice and there spending more doesn't make it wrong for them.

Hugh · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 03:37 pm »

It's funny our experience is almost identical.

I heard Bryston BCD-1 at CES08 (if I remember correctly) and so I put in an order for one.

Just so happened at that time, I found a Lector CDP7TL on Audiodon for an exceptional price and it turned out to be unused.
Once I plugged the Lector in my setup, I didn't even bother to open the Bryston.

I finally succeeded in selling the BCD-1 recently.

This is not to say the BCD-1 is not a great player. It's just not for me since it's dry in comparison to the CDP7TL.

Back to the 'outrageously priced' items, it's very simple,
For those people who bought those, the reason is because they can.

Quote from: rollo on 3 Jul 2010, 02:33 pm

For some price is an issue. For others it is not. In my case as an example we have tried numerous DACs and CDPs that cost anywhere a pittance compared to our reference CDP. in the end some were very close in sonic merrits most were not. Was the sound worth the expenditure ? For us it was. Better is better. Was it twice as good according to price ? NO no and no. However for us that little bit is what did it. We are talking $3300 [ now $5500] for our reference CDP a Lector CDP7TL. Examples of lessor players such as the Bryston, PS Audio, Altman, Audio Note, Oritek, OppoSE, modded Art DIO, Arcam and several others.
We would purchase the newer one for $5500 but the Mk1 with the older chip sounds better to us. Go figure.
C'mon guys if you could afford the world class gear you would have it. I believe it is just that simple. Just like anything else in life. Money talks BS walks. BTW we are not millionaires just the average Joe.

charles

TONEPUB · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 05:20 pm »

My $57,000 dCS easily sounds twice as good as my $32,000 Naim CD555 did, in addition to playing SACD's and functioning as an upsampling DAC as well. When I bought the Naim, it sounded more than twice as good as the $16,000 Meridian 808 I was using (though I did lose DVD-a capability). The Meridan sounded worlds better than the Modwright Denon I was using at the time, and the Modwright Denon sounded light years better than the Ah! Toejb player before it.

And just for laughs, I borrowed an Ah! Tjoeb player from a friend to compare to the dCS, it sounded like a transistor radio in comparison. However, listening to the Ah! Tjoeb on his Marantz 2275 and JBL L100's, it sounds pretty darn good.

So, I'd say going from a $1,000 player to almost a $60,000 player has yielded pretty linear results. Granted most people aren't this obsessed, but there's a lot of performance out there. Your call whether you'd like to spend the money on something else.

srb · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 05:35 pm »

Just curious how one could even attempt to put a multiplication factor on better sound, as in "sounds twice as good" or "sounds more than twice as good". Better I can understand.

Steve

TONEPUB · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 05:59 pm »

Let's say a significant enough jump that you feel the trade is worth the money...

Whether you're going from a 300 dollar player to a 600 dollar player or there's another
zero or two on the end. I think no matter what level you're listening, it's hard to think
about writing the check unless you're getting a lot more music.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 06:00 pm »

And no offense, but there have really been a disproportionate level of posts on the Niteshade threads that are against spending money on higher end gear....

werd · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 06:15 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 3 Jul 2010, 05:20 pm

My $57,000 dCS easily sounds twice as good as my $32,000 Naim CD555 did, in addition to playing SACD's and functioning as an upsampling DAC as well. When I bought the Naim, it sounded more than twice as good as the $16,000 Meridian 808 I was using (though I did lose DVD-a capability). The Meridan sounded worlds better than the Modwright Denon I was using at the time, and the Modwright Denon sounded light years better than the Ah! Toejb player before it.

And just for laughs, I borrowed an Ah! Tjoeb player from a friend to compare to the dCS, it sounded like a transistor radio in comparison. However, listening to the Ah! Tjoeb on his Marantz 2275 and JBL L100's, it sounds pretty darn good.

So, I'd say going from a $1,000 player to almost a $60,000 player has yielded pretty linear results. Granted most people aren't this obsessed, but there's a lot of performance out there. Your call whether you'd like to spend the money on something else.

This is an excellent post. Spending around $5k on a piece gets you into the ballpark. At this point tastes start to develop. Its really up to the individual if they want to invest in the hobby and move into a more developed sound-stage.

People who laugh at the thought of investing in an expensive front-end fail to recognize what they are hearing out of their speakers is the source component amplified.

Mind you i have never heard a source over $20k hehe

Niteshade · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 07:47 pm »

People can be opposed to something because of a lack of information. Some people believe that if something costs over a certain amount it has to be bogus, the claims are hot air. On the other hand, we have the other crowd that believes if something doesn't cost enough that it just HAS to be garbage.

Reason: As stated earlier: A lack of understanding, information.

On the flip side: We have a third group who knows precisely what they want and why. They're not out there to just get rid of their cash, they know what it will take to the the job properly.

As far as people congregating here that oppose high priced gear, it's not because of me- at least I don't believe so. Our equipment has a broad range of prices and abilities and our median price is about the same as the other manufacturers on AC.

What would it mean if folks congregated here or anywhere to say low priced gear is junk? It's as broad and meaningless an assumption as saying all high end gear is superior.

Quote from: TONEPUB on 3 Jul 2010, 06:00 pm

And no offense, but there have really been a disproportionate level of posts on the Niteshade threads that are against spending money on higher end gear....

jtwrace · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 07:48 pm »

Blair

I say send TONE a piece of Niteshade and see what he thinks...

Niteshade · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 07:52 pm »

I'm all for it.

Quote from: jtwrace on 3 Jul 2010, 07:48 pm

Blair

I say send TONE a piece of Niteshade and see what he thinks...

TONEPUB · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 09:38 pm »

You've been promising for over a year, I've given up....

jtwrace · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 09:44 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 3 Jul 2010, 09:38 pm

You've been promising for over a year, I've given up....

Hmm. That's one of the biggest drawbacks I've see with Niteshade. Sorry Blair but it's true. Your timeframe is always very long. I've heard about a demo tour for probably almost a year now....

TONEPUB · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 11:52 pm »

And this is why I've always been hesitant to review gear from the really small mfrs. Even if the product is excellent, but the service and delivery is lacking, it's going to make for an unhappy customer.

While I understand that a small company can sometimes make an amplifier for less money than say, someone like McIntosh, Mc has product on the shelf ready to go, a full service dept and dealer support as well. If your MC275 should ever break, you can get it fixed or get another one right now. That's a big part of what goes into the cost structure.

It's up to you where you want to draw the line.

Niteshade · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 11:55 pm »

I admit I've been slow regarding tours and reviews. It's nothing personal and I apologize if it seemed that way.

I wanted a retail line for review- and the amps are ready. Preamps are next. The amps were not ready until last month cosmetically.

Audiovista · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 12:34 am »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 3 Jul 2010, 11:52 pm

And this is why I've always been hesitant to review gear from the really small mfrs. Even if the product is excellent, but the service and delivery is lacking, it's going to make for an unhappy customer.

While I understand that a small company can sometimes make an amplifier for less money than say, someone like McIntosh, Mc has product on the shelf ready to go, a full service dept and dealer support as well. If your MC275 should ever break, you can get it fixed or get another one right now. That's a big part of what goes into the cost structure.

It's up to you where you want to draw the line.

Most small (micro) manufacturers have lower prices because they sell direct, with no distributor and dealer markups, not because they skip on servicing their customers - on the contrary, thanks to low marketing budget, happy customers are critical to making a small company succeed...

jtwrace · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 01:01 am »

Quote from: Audiovista on 4 Jul 2010, 12:34 am

Most small (micro) manufacturers have lower prices because they sell direct, with no distributor and dealer markups, not because they skip on servicing their customers - on the contrary, thanks to low marketing budzet, happy customers are critical to making a small company succeed...

There is no doubt about that.