The egg or the hen

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 1363 times.

henry_uae

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 3
The egg or the hen
« on: 29 Jun 2022, 05:41 am »
Ok so room treatment is a must do, even the easiest.
Speaker placement is a must do, on top of the basic triangle thing.
Treating your room might change the wall distance or listening point?
Viceversa the treatment will improve the listening experience without change?

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11102
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: The egg or the hen
« Reply #1 on: 29 Jun 2022, 02:47 pm »
I find that treatment really determines how quiet or lively the room is as a whole.  So the type and amount of treatment you use is more about tuning in the tonality of the speakers. 

Placement of the speakers has more to do with getting a great soundstage and with balancing the bass response. 

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10660
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: The egg or the hen
« Reply #2 on: 29 Jun 2022, 02:58 pm »
Loudspeakers are the most important factor in the audio reproduction chain, but the room is #2.  Avoid small/squarish rooms.  Insulation (complete) is also critical.  And hopefully the room is dedicated to music. 

With the right room treatments are of secondary significance.  I built such a room 17 years ago: 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios) in the basement (no windows); well insulated; and dedicated to me.  A/V system is in another room.  In my pursuit of leaving no stone unturned I bought (10) GIK 244 2ft x 4ft panels, which I'm convinced are the best available absorption panels.  While they work wonders in other rooms I find them minimally effective in my room (thanks to the ideal room ratios).  Also have tall randomly filled bookcases in the room to act as "casual" adjustable diffusers.  And in accordance with Floyd Toole and Earl Geddes added 3 subwoofers to tame bass peaks/dips.  Finally tried adding room EQ, but on top of everything else I had done was of little benefit. 

Placement is important.  I use a midfield triangular arrangement with commissioned loudspeakers 5.2ft from the front wall.  Midfield in comparison makes traditional setups seem like the sound is coming from "over there".  An often neglected factor is the equipment rack.  I've found smaller/lower the better as the stereo image cannot develop in an obstruction and being a purist want to keep cables short.  I've had small/simple systems, so the best rack I've had was an elongated amp stand (single shelf with floor spikes). 

As far as room insulation goes, you have to plug all the holes or water will leak out of and into the pail.  I used flexible insulated/lined ductwork (barely hear the furnace), exterior insulated fiberglass door with weather seals, and insulated staggered stud walls (even backed up against storage areas).  My downfall was using recessed can light fixtures (even though I have 12 inches of insulation above them).  But initially the room was spooky quiet, so available dynamic range is greater and the need to "crank it up" is greatly reduced. 

Rob Babcock

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 9297
Re: The egg or the hen
« Reply #3 on: 8 Jul 2022, 05:39 am »
Yeah, the room has nearly as much impact on the sounds as the speakers.

Mag

Re: The egg or the hen
« Reply #4 on: 8 Jul 2022, 06:39 am »
   If you luck out and have good acoustics in a room, you don't have to do anything. My secondary set up in my bedroom/office is such a room. I don't need big speakers in this room to get great sound, just that I can't play it as loud as I would like for fear of disturbing the neighbors as my walls are thin in my old house. But I can achieve enough volume that I get what I call a live like effect. My speakers are Paradigm Studio 20 v3.

With my main rig in the basement which contains the sound at the volume that I typically play. My volume has come down, guess I'm getting old. I have concrete walls and particle board, diffuser panels all along the bottom and rafters which act as diffusers as well. Using my Bryston Model T speakers I aim them toward the wall approximately 2 feet away from my listening chair. The reflected sound then somehow comes off the front wall like it's being projected. So I get this great phantom stereo image with my speakers 15' apart.

At work I'm often in the bathrooms with bad acoustics, as I'm a janitor. If someone talks to me I hear the reflected sound off the wall first and I can't discern what they said. I guess that's the audiophile in me trained to listen to stereo sound. :smoke:

whydontumarryit

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 218
Re: The egg or the hen
« Reply #5 on: 8 Jul 2022, 11:53 pm »


I choose the hen. Not that you can say for sure logically speaking, the fact is that even not knowing what came first, we know that we have a hen and we have a hen's egg. We know where the egg came from and can't really be sure where the hen came from. So, obviously, the hen came first otherwise the hen's egg could never exist.

Then again, if the post title has nothing to do with your question and it seems obvious that it doesn't, what you want to know is 'how can I waste as much money on this hobby as possible and still convince myself of an audibly favorable change'?
That will definitely happen because you have 'skin in the game'. Unfortunately, only the strategic repositioning of your speakers in the room and the listening position related to that will offer the most significant difference. Room treatments, if at all necessary, by commercial means will be no more effective than a thick blanket tacked to whatever wall is perceived to   be doing the job.
Another problem with this attempt at optimization is that it will change more than you care to deal with depending on the source of information and those specific colorations (based on your choice of components and their playback options) involved in vinyl, digital, internet radio, etc. because they will sound different and not necessarily in a good way without having to make corrections to what you thought were the perfect location for speakers and listening position.
That is, for instance, the correct speaker position for listening to vinyl is not the correct speaker position for listening to streamed hi-res files. This accounts for the endless audiophile controversy of one reproduction source vs another without ameliorating those source colorations by a simple change in perspective by changing your impression of what you hear in a slightly different part of the room which is different and noticeable when that perspective is changed by only 1db at any measureable range of frequencies. This is why every vaguely descriptive and subjective interpretation of differences of component and speaker evaluations based on a single and randomly chosen best location cannot be taken seriously. Long term, days to weeks, listening sessions are needed to get a handle on just exactly what you hear and not an immediate direct double-blind A/B comparison of two speakers that cannot be set up properly to prove their true reproduction capabilities.

The more you know the more you will question not only the fringe realm of hi end audio but include the mainstream and the ridiculous claims based on either the subjective impressions (not valid from what I previously claim) or a measureable superiority of something that was never audible in the first place.
Source material resolution can be a boon or detriment to listening enjoyment because it was recorded properly, or not. This has nothing to do with the objective performance of the equipment used at the time and more to do with the location and expertise at the time. A recording from 60 yrs. ago on a scoring sound stage with the technology available then will sound more realistic than all of the digital manipulations, near-field listening, golden-eared engineers and zero noise and distortion playback available now.

The industry is a gigantic swindle at any level. The fact that there will never be agreement about accuracy of music reproduction, even if measurements are beyond reproach or the personal opinions of listeners are no longer questioned the industry will come up with something new and revolutionary to peak the interest of the impressionable masses.

Basically what I'm saying is that you can do whatever you want and not get anywhere. Give it up for your own sake while you still have the chance.





Letitroll98

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 5612
  • Too loud is just right
Re: The egg or the hen
« Reply #6 on: 9 Jul 2022, 10:21 am »
I find that treatment really determines how quiet or lively the room is as a whole.  So the type and amount of treatment you use is more about tuning in the tonality of the speakers. 

Placement of the speakers has more to do with getting a great soundstage and with balancing the bass response.

The thread could be ended after this post.  But in the interest of driving forum traffic I'll add one thing.  If you add huge floor to ceiling bass traps in the corners you can smooth the bass response a few decibels.