AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: jandrews on 27 Aug 2023, 12:30 am
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For those of you with the M225 monoblocks who aren’t using the AVA digital preamp, what preamps are you using? Do you feel it’s necessary to use a truly differential pre, or do balanced outs suffice?
Anyone using tubes before the M225’s?
Thanks
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So far I've used an AVA gen 1 FetValve CF, currently using my old AVA Ultra EC Hybrid Pre after rolling in some 6922 tubes in place of the original 6N1Ps. Swapped for 2 reasons: a) wanted to hear the Ultra with the upgrade tubes, b) the Ultra has a tube phono section while the FV CF has the gen 1 Vision phono. Each has it's character, I tend to prefer the tube phono. Mostly I use the DVA 225s in the summer, doesn't seem the most efficient use of energy to run my tube amp while simultaneously running an A/C to cool the house. Another couple of months I'll likely switch back to the tube amp for most of the winter. Both connect to the AVA R2X to convert RCA to Balanced, so can't really address the 2nd part of your question.
In answer to part 3 of your question, I also run a Modwright Modified Pio Universal disc player for CDs which has his tube mod, and have swapped in my old AVA Ultra Hybrid DAC for my AVA DAC5. Again to hear the difference with the 6922 tube upgrade. So, "yes" I have a few tubes before the M225s. I'd think the M225s would pair easily with most any good preamp tube or SS, and give a very satisfying result, fwiw.
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For those of you with the M225 monoblocks who aren’t using the AVA digital preamp, what preamps are you using? Do you feel it’s necessary to use a truly differential pre, or do balanced outs suffice?
Anyone using tubes before the M225’s?
Thanks
I have found significant improvement using balanced vs RCA including the AVA Digital Preamp and an Okto Dac directly into the amp vs my favorite Unbalanced pre. I am not sure if they are a truly differential preamp or not.
I may upgrade soon, however The okto and the Ava digital preamp are both not only amazing, but also quite a bargain at its current price.
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Parasound P6 with balanced connections.
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Thanks for the replies
I know there are more M225 users out there...where are they?
@morganc, Great to know re: the Digital Preamp and the Okto dac. As far as I can tell they are both truly differential but not 100%
Do you stream directly via the Okto's ethernet port? Which unit are you using more?
I'm primarily drawn to the AVA Digital Preamp but just want to know my options before buying a pair of Monos.
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I’m using a Modwright 36.5 with good results. I’d like to hear what a fully balanced pre would sound like though.
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Parasound P7 with balanced connections.
This is a pure analog preamp---no HDMI, no coaxial, no optical inputs/outputs.
This model has been discontinued.
This pairing with the DVA-M225 sounds wonderful!
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Thanks for the replies
I know there are more M225 users out there...where are they?
@morganc, Great to know re: the Digital Preamp and the Okto dac. As far as I can tell they are both truly differential but not 100%
Do you stream directly via the Okto's ethernet port? Which unit are you using more?
I'm primarily drawn to the AVA Digital Preamp but just want to know my options before buying a pair of Monos.
IME the DVA 225s sound wonderful with any balanced Preamp. I didn't like them as much with my single ended Tube Preamp. The aVA Pre and the Okto are voiced very similarly IMO. Im using an Aurender Streamer. Lastest toy is en route the Holo Spring KTE with preamp. I believe it will be a notch above the Okto but we will see.
And for the record I've tried a dozen or more amps with my Spatials and the pairing with the DVA 225s is the best I've had so far in my large living room (large living room for me makes a high power amp mandatory as low watt tubes just aren't enough ).
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I have DVA M750’s on order. Not exactly, but closely applicable to m225s. Will be using an Emotiva XMC-2 pre pro. XLR outputs. Not sure to the truly differential pre. Differential to me means that it only amplifies the difference in signal at the original input. (Eliminating noise) I think its always about (noise). Im under the premise XLR was designed to allow longer runs of cable in pro settings while eliminating ground loop (hum) issues. I am not an expert EE guy. Only a hobbyist. I hope I dont get flamed for saying that my audio wire affiliation is far flung toward the cheap side. I would never spend $$$$$ on a run of copper because it was hyped as superb. The electrons moving through the copper dont care how much you spent per foot on your wires. However, XLR IS NOT snake oil. Its laws of physics, electronic engineering stuff. Compared to my RCA days, XLR offers more gain, less hum, less noise and ease of use especially on a subwoofer run 50 ft away. I still use RCA on some stuff. RCA is not terrible but in certain applications balanced is better. Email Frank. I bet he could write a Phd paper on the subject.
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I use the AVA DVA preamp with the M225 mono blocks and my Magnepan 1.7s sound better than ever.
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If you drive a bridged differential amplifier like the DVA M225 or DVA M700 with a single-ended source, it won't perform as intended. This means if you are using a source that only has RCA outputs, you'll need something like our R2X to convert that signal into a proper differential one. A simple cable that converts RCA to XLR won't do it. The R2X adds very little coloration of its own, so you can use it with confidence.
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If you drive a bridged differential amplifier like the DVA M225 or DVA M700 with a single-ended source, it won't perform as intended. This means if you are using a source that only has RCA outputs, you'll need something like our R2X to convert that signal into a proper differential one. A simple cable that converts RCA to XLR won't do it. The R2X adds very little coloration of its own, so you can use it with confidence.
I tried this ( and have one for sale if anyone wants to give it a try) and it worked well with a tube Preamp, however the AVa Pre took the music to a much better level with Xlr cables.
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As I understand it (but don't understand the electrical theory) there's a difference between true differential and what one might call convenience XLR. The fact that a preamp has XLR outputs doesn't guarantee that it has true differential output. For instance, over on Audiogon Atmasphere makes a point of stressing that all his components are true differential, whereas some other brands aren't.
I used a Backert preamp with the 225s that I had, and it worked fine. I don't know whether it was true differential or not. I suspect that the 225s don't need a true differential input, just a properly implemented XLR output from the preamp (i.e. something more than what happens in a RCA to XLR adapter), but it would be nice if someone could confirm.
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Disclaimer: I had help with this answer :)
Both the DVA M225 and DVA M750 require true differential inputs -- as long as we mean the same thing here. These amps require an XLR connection where (a) both the hot and cold signals are driven, (b) the hot and cold signals are inverted versions of each other, and (c) the ground connection is actually connected to the source's signal ground. In some cases (c) won't be required. Fortunately, this is how the majority of line-level equipment with XLR outputs is configured today.
Also, to clarify any possible confusion, both the DVA M225 and DVA M750 will produce output with sources that don't meet (a) and (b). However, they won't reap the benefits of the bridged configuration these amps use, and so they won't sound as good nor make the same power.
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Perfect Mary (and Frank!)
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Are you designing a xlr based preamp to work with the differential power amps?
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Are you designing a xlr based preamp to work with the differential power amps?
The Ava digital preamp on their site as discussed above is an xlr preamp and Dac! To my ears it's Incredible.
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Something under development?
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A friend uses a Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE with his DVA -225's. The STP-SE, overlooked a lot, is a true fully balanced neutral pre-amp. I do enjoy mine with my PASS XA30.
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Does anyone who owns a Fet Vave CFR preamp (maybe the Vision SLR as well) know how the lights on the front panel of the pre are dimmed and are all of the the lights dimmed, or some, or what? I once was a dealer for a company that let you dim a decent OLED display, but an eye piercing blue LED came on to let you know you dimmed the display and I didn't like that much. The display was less obnoxious than the LED.
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The digital preamp has been available for several years. https://avahifi.com/products/dva-digital-preamplifier (https://avahifi.com/products/dva-digital-preamplifier)
Are you designing a xlr based preamp to work with the differential power amps?
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I'm using my DVA-M225's with a Benchmark LA-4 line stage(preamp) using XLR outputs. These amps are quite surprising compared to much much expensive amps I have had in my system. Extremely listenable sound, and more than enough power for my Joseph Audio Perspective 2's.
Note: If you have a dac that has adjustable gain outputs, plug them directly to the 225's and enjoy. I do this when I'm digital/streaming listening exclusively.
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I've just recently received my DVA M225 amps. I'm auditioning these monos to determine if I like them better than my Fet Valve 400R I've had for 5.5 years. With Frank's 30 day guarantee I couldn't pass up the chance to get these from the great reviews I've read. The preamp I'm using is the Rogue Audio RP-7. From dac to amps is XLR cabling. I only have about 10 hours on the amps. I'm guessing around 50 hours should be a good break in for the equipment, and my ears to adjust to the sound.
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Recently swapped in my Modwright LS100 pre, balanced out (single ended) from Pre to amps, skipping the R2X. Nice, can't say there is a dramatic difference from prior CF & Ultra sound with the R2X. Simply means one less item to turn on. Let us know your thoughts WM once evaluated.
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Let us know your thoughts WM once evaluated.
Hi Arthur. I will. So far it is similar is some aspects to the Fet Valve and a little different in others. High end seems a little smoother sounding, and a little bit more clarity in the mids. Bass is very close between the two. As I get more hours burned in I look forward to hearing more differences.
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IME the DVA 225s sound wonderful with any balanced Preamp. I didn't like them as much with my single ended Tube Preamp. The aVA Pre and the Okto are voiced very similarly IMO. Im using an Aurender Streamer. Lastest toy is en route the Holo Spring KTE with preamp. I believe it will be a notch above the Okto but we will see.
And for the record I've tried a dozen or more amps with my Spatials and the pairing with the DVA 225s is the best I've had so far in my large living room (large living room for me makes a high power amp mandatory as low watt tubes just aren't enough ).
Would love to know what you thought of the Holo Spring KTE with the DVA 225.
I happen to have a Holo Bliss Amp and that's what I'd be using to pre-amp the DVA's if I get them and I believe the Spring + Pre and the Bliss have the same attenuation circuitry.
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Sorry to double post but I was also wondering if it would be better to use my Holo Bliss preamp capabilities or use digital attenuation via my Gustard R26 DAC?
What are the pros/cons of each?
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Mary - Is there any thought being given to developing an analog preamp to work with the differential power amps?
Thanks.
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Sorry to double post but I was also wondering if it would be better to use my Holo Bliss preamp capabilities or use digital attenuation via my Gustard R26 DAC?
What are the pros/cons of each?
No idea! Why don't you listen and tell us :)?
I found the 225s to sound amazing with the Holo Spring, Okto Dac and the AVA Digital Pre.
My guess is there will be only subtle differences adding in the Preamp but that's just a guess as I do prefer the Holo Spring and AVA to the Okto.
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Mary - Is there any thought being given to developing an analog preamp to work with the differential power amps?
Thanks.
Hi Maxima,
We currently are not working on XLR outputs on our preamplifiers. However, the AVA R2X works seamlessly with an analog preamplifier.
https://avahifi.com/collections/accessories/products/dva-r2x
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Thank you Mary.
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I am using a pair of DVA M225's, the FET valve CFR preamp and the DVA R2X and they sound great. I've owned way too much gear over the years and have been a dealer for some famous brands in North Carolina and I can tell you with certainty that there is terrific sound quality, as well as value with current AVA stuff. Not a paid spokesperson!!
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I am using a pair of DVA M225's along with the Vision SLR preamp w/ phono circuit, and the AVA R2X in between them. Driving some Philharmonic Audio HT Towers and M&K sub... It's the best-sounding (and last) system I've owned and needless to say I'm very happy.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=258896)
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+1 on the Philharmonic Audio BMR HT Towers; best speakers I’ve personally owned
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Let us know your thoughts WM once evaluated.
It has been awhile but I still have the M225s. I just could not give them up. I didn't really need them as I have the Fet Valve 400R but I wanted them. I treated myself to an early Christmas present. Once the amps were broken in it really shined in my system. Great synergy with the other components (Audio Mirror Tubadour V, Rogue Audio RP-7, Tekton Design Pendragons). The 400R is a great amp. But the M225 sounds like a more refined updated version. The mid range presence and balance had more range and depth. A little more definition as well. The bass was deep and more controlled. It slams very nicely when the music calls for it. The highs were natural sounding where it didn't call attention to itself. It just sounded like it should. For such a small package for the amps they are bigger sounding than they look. A couple of my friends thought they were class D. I had to explain no they are solid state and perform way above its weight. I'm very content with the amps while I can continue to sit back and enjoy the music.
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It has been awhile but I still have the M225s. I just could not give them up. I didn't really need them as I have the Fet Valve 400R but I wanted them. I treated myself to an early Christmas present. Once the amps were broken in it really shined in my system. Great synergy with the other components (Audio Mirror Tubadour V, Rogue Audio RP-7, Tekton Design Pendragons). The 400R is a great amp. But the M225 sounds like a more refined updated version. The mid range presence and balance had more range and depth. A little more definition as well. The bass was deep and more controlled. It slams very nicely when the music calls for it. The highs were natural sounding where it didn't call attention to itself. It just sounded like it should. For such a small package for the amps they are bigger sounding than they look. A couple of my friends thought they were class D. I had to explain no they are solid state and perform way above its weight. I'm very content with the amps while I can continue to sit back and enjoy the music.
Thanks for the update WM :thumb: Can't say I'm surprised, while I only run them occasionally during the winter months, they still impress me when I do. I had a Fet Valve 550, fine amp, but with age just more bulk than I wanted to move around. Traded it in on the DAC Mk5, Frank had no problem selling it. They are fine amps, but I agree the M225 does surpass them. As summer approaches they'll become the primary driving force, allowing my Don Sachs KT88 tube rig to 'rest' during the hotter months. Two quite different, but both excellent flavors and presentations. Happy listening. 8)
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It has been awhile but I still have the M225s. I just could not give them up. I didn't really need them as I have the Fet Valve 400R but I wanted them. I treated myself to an early Christmas present. Once the amps were broken in it really shined in my system. Great synergy with the other components (Audio Mirror Tubadour V, Rogue Audio RP-7, Tekton Design Pendragons). The 400R is a great amp. But the M225 sounds like a more refined updated version. The mid range presence and balance had more range and depth. A little more definition as well. The bass was deep and more controlled. It slams very nicely when the music calls for it. The highs were natural sounding where it didn't call attention to itself. It just sounded like it should. For such a small package for the amps they are bigger sounding than they look. A couple of my friends thought they were class D. I had to explain no they are solid state and perform way above its weight. I'm very content with the amps while I can continue to sit back and enjoy the music.
Agreed! Listening to my M225's always leaves a smile on my face, especially with high quality material. The control and slam are surprising at times. Now I am wondering what one of Frank's preamps would bring to the table vs my Parasound P6. I'd have to add a DAC if I did put a AVA pre in the system, and I'm limited on funds at this point. There's also the bass management aspect as the P6 high passes my mains at 80hz.
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The digital Pre is a Pre and Dac built in one and pairs very well with the 225’s.
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The digital Pre is a Pre and Dac built in one and pairs very well with the 225’s.
Yes, that would be a nice addition, I'm sure. A bit pricey for me, and that would still leave the issue of high passing my main monitors. Also, I'm using a MiniDSP 2x4HD to implement and EQ dual subwoofers. The MiniDSP is connected to the P6's dedicated sub-out and is not in the signal path to the main speakers. Lots of flexibility in the P6, which makes it more difficult to replace.