AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Low Wattage Systems => Topic started by: Freo-1 on 18 Sep 2019, 09:34 pm
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Let's hear your inputs for the best high efficiency speakers for low wattage applications? Pictures are most welcome!
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I've heard the Volti Rivals twice at AXPONA driven by BorderPatrol amps and DAC. Always a fun time listening to them.
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Today my fave are this big cone that was out of the line and came back:
https://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an15cfspecs.jpg
99dB and 50Wrms must delivery some performance.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198896)
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It's not as easy to say a speaker is efficient or inefficient as it used to be. For example, most of the GR-Research speakers now include open baffle servo bass modules, but the planar magnetic sections and smaller mid woofer sections may run easily on 10W and down. So would you say these require 200W or 8W?
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/new-line-force-by-danny-richie-jpg.33621/)
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Given that when people are talking about low wattage systems they are saying they want to use an SE tube amp.
Here the highish output impedance of the amplifier means a fairly flat impedance curve in the loudspeaker, or a FR and impedance that work to stretch the extention at both ends.
Efficiency itself is not as important as some may think, but flat impedance is important (and a bass alignment that takes the high output impeance into consideration).
So the question becomes: What is your low wattage amplifier?
dave
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Volti Rivals
Ugly impedance curve:
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/617Voltifig1.jpg)
Ugly FR:
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/617Voltifig4.jpg)
But it looks like with a hign output impedance the big bump in the impedance at XO is compensated by a big shallow in the FR (as measured with a low output impednce amp). But it probably won’t fill in the whole dip. No aid in the top, but some extension at the bottom may happen — but only if the speaker is designed for a high output impedance amplifier.
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I haven't heard a whole lot but the Forte III is one I would drool over.
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I suppose flat impedance requirement apply only to speakers with xover, FR drivers already have a flat impedance.
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I haven't heard a whole lot but the Forte III is one I would drool over.
I have those in my 2nd system, on the main floor. They are pretty awesome, and a clear step up over the prior iterations (which were all too rough/bright). I like the Forte 3 even better than the new Cornwall 4 I heard at RMAF.
They are also very easy to get to sound good with SET amps. I rotate between an 18 watt Almarro A318B, an 8 watt Japanese Elekit 300b and a 2 watt TAL Korneff Type 45 amp. All of them sound great and all of them can rock out with plenty of bass and also do finesse with jazz or classical.
They aren’t as refined and don’t image as well as other audiophile speakers, if you want that, look at GR Research or Spatial Audio for really good open battle designs that are often very SET friendly.
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for really good open battle designs
Or if they don't have enough space, they could try the opposite, a closed conflict design.
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What are opinions regarding Klipschorns? It's been MANY years since I've listened to them, but I do remember that they were one of very few speakers that sounded like the music was live when standing in an adjacent room.
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What about Devore 0/96's? I keep reading stunning reviews of them. Of course, that doesn't make them great, but I have yet to see much criticism of them.
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Or if they don't have enough space, they could try the opposite, a closed conflict design.
Stupid autocorrect, lol.
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I gave up on SET's 15 years ago, couldn't find high efficiency speakers that weren't colored and/or lacked reasonable bass response.
The best solution is a 4-5 inch driver with a subwoofer (or 4) added.
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I gave up on SET's 15 years ago, couldn't find high efficiency speakers that weren't colored and/or lacked reasonable bass response.
The best solution is a 4-5 inch driver with a subwoofer (or 4) added.
I'd have agreed with you 5 (and especially 10) years ago. But things have changed. The Forte 3s are a bit of a game changer, as are the speakers with powered bass sections and high efficiency midrange/high sections, like GR Research and Spatial Audio make. SETs definitely require careful speaker matching, but once you achieve that, it's totally worth the time/effort/money.
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Hi, I have the SONIST -"CONCERTO 4's" that are powered with a 5 watt amp. They reach down to 27 hz and the spl rating is 97db. I've also owned their little brother the stand mounted CONCERTO 2, both speakers sounded pretty much the same with the 4's having more and lower bass and the ability to fill a larger room with sound.
TISH
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Omega, Spatial, Rethm. A good place to start.
charles
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I gave up on SET's 15 years ago, couldn't find high efficiency speakers that weren't colored and/or lacked reasonable bass response.
The best solution is a 4-5 inch driver with a subwoofer (or 4) added.
With FR speakers you are using drivers where it is no longer possible to improve them or it is difficult to improve them currently, to get an idea of the situation the color of the cones influences the sound of the speakers, most cones are black, few are white, some dont use dyes and have that beige/light yellow color.
This grade of precision you want is possible only with some expensive headphones.
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Agree about the Sonist Concerto 4. Very good speakers for low power SET. They were out of business for a while but appear to be back. Reasonably priced too.
http://sonistaudio.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=48
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I suppose flat impedance requirement apply only to speakers with xover, FR drivers already have a flat impedance.
That is typically the case, but they do have a tendency to rise at the bass resonance, and if no copper sleeve, at the HF. These rises in impedance used with a high output impedance amplifier can be used to extend the FR.
dave
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the Forte III
Another speaker with an ugly impedance curve.
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/719KF3-fig1.jpg)
And in this case, unlikely to be a good match for a high output impedance amplifier.
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/719KF3-fig4.jpg)
dave
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Devore 0/96's?
More ugly impedance.
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/1212DO96fig1.jpg)
The FR looks like it will be further exagerated thru the 1k-ish range.
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/1212DO96fig6.jpg)
dave
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The best solution is a 4-5 inch driver with a subwoofer (or 4) added.
+1
A subwoofer can be used, but i prefer to use them below the bass coupler so that better synergy between the woofer & the midTweeter is possible.
A WAW. Like this:
(http://www.planet10-hifi.com/boxpix/A12pw-MTM-comp.jpg)
Use of almost any amplifier no matter what the output impedance can be used on the midTweeter if you bi-amp.
dave
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SONIST -CONCERTO 4
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/409Sonfig1.jpg)
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/409Sonfig4.jpg)
Impedance peak will cause a rise in FR between about 1 k & 8k if used with a high output impedance amplifier.
dave
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I believe you're showing the measurements for the 3 not the 4. Regardless, did you read J.A.s comments?
"....The tweeter is almost 5dB too low in level in the octave above the crossover frequency—this will be compensated for when the speaker is driven by a tube amplifier having a high source impedance—but returns to full level above 6kHz and to an increased level above 15kHz. How this affects sound quality will also depend on the speaker's radiation pattern. The Sonist's horizontal dispersion, normalized to the quasi-anechoic response on its tweeter axis, is shown in fig.5. The off-axis behavior is surprisingly even, though a notch develops to the speaker's sides at the frequency of the on-axis peak at the top of the woofer's passband. There are also some off-axis peaks at the frequencies where the tweeter has some on-axis notches. All of this means that the room's reverberant field is not going to be as uneven or colored as you might expect from the on-axis response....."
Anyone using transformer coupled SET tube amplifiers probably isn't too concerned with accuracy of reproduction anyway. These particular speakers were designed to be used with amplifiers that have higher output impedance.
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I have a pair of Charney Audio horns built on the tractrix theory. All his horns will mate well with low power amps, tube and solid state. Charney is in Somerset NJ and will do auditions on request. Well worth the visit and time.
http://charneyaudio.com/ Click on the "Part-Time Audiophile" link and read what John Richardson has to say about his visit.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=175946)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=175940)
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Mine!
DIY 2 way Altec CD and Horn and Jensen 15" Woofer all from the 1950's.
98db 16ohms.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199073)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199074)
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A friend has Horning Perikles Ultimates (96 dB/w/m, 40-20,000 Hz, 3-way that use a Lowther driver for extended midrange use with the whizzer cone removed to eliminate the midrange honk/forwardness). Don't know if they're still available but can't wait to hear them. Thorsten Loesch was quite taken by them.
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What about Devore 0/96's? I keep reading stunning reviews of them. Of course, that doesn't make them great, but I have yet to see much criticism of them.
I would love to hear these or the o/93. The 93 is a little more realistic on pricing for me, but it's enough where I wouldn't pull the trigger on them blindly. I know a dealer semi near has an o/96 in house. If I was ready to make a purchase I would certainly give them an audition.
My amp is an PSET that can switch between 10w and 20w (pendtode), so the Devore Gibbon lines might even be a good fit in my system, but I'd still need to hear them first.
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Given that when people are talking about low wattage systems they are saying they want to use an SE tube amp.
That question struck me as soon as I looked at this forum - it appears that everyone assumes that the discussion is tube amp only.
I've had power amps that are low output - Classe DR3 at 25 watts, and a friend owned Mark Levinson ML-2 which I regretfully failed to talk him into selling that would run speakers that would make many low output tube amps wilt. My 40 watt Classe DR3 VHCs put out only 40 watts (beyond the scope of this section) but bridged will put out 500 watts into a 1 ohm load (guy I bought them from was running them that way into 1 ohm configured Apogee Scintillas.
Am I correct in deducing that this sort of power amp isn't the discussion target for this section? (nor would my main system amp qualify, for although running tubes, it outputs a gargantuan 70 watts per channel!)
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I'm using a pair of Klipsch La Scalas with Thomas Mayer 45 amps. 1.5 watts. more than happy listening and never maxing out the volume. I have other more powerful amps including LM 300b and a first watt j2. I'm way happier with one beautiful sounding watt from the thomas mayer
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199396)
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That question struck me as soon as I looked at this forum - it appears that everyone assumes that the discussion is tube amp only.
I've had power amps that are low output - Classe DR3 at 25 watts, and a friend owned Mark Levinson ML-2 which I regretfully failed to talk him into selling that would run speakers that would make many low output tube amps wilt. My 40 watt Classe DR3 VHCs put out only 40 watts (beyond the scope of this section) but bridged will put out 500 watts into a 1 ohm load (guy I bought them from was running them that way into 1 ohm configured Apogee Scintillas.
Am I correct in deducing that this sort of power amp isn't the discussion target for this section? (nor would my main system amp qualify, for although running tubes, it outputs a gargantuan 70 watts per channel!)
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105282.0
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...25 watts… 40 watt ...70 watts...
I think that for the purposes of this discussion most amps are well below 10w. A Pass ACA at 5-8w would be a qualifying SS amp.
dave
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I'm using a pair of Klipsch La Scalas with Thomas Mayer 45 amps. 1.5 watts. more than happy listening and never maxing out the volume. I have other more powerful amps including LM 300b and a first watt j2. I'm way happier with one beautiful sounding watt from the thomas mayer
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199396)
Hey, we have almost the same system! My upstairs system uses a pair of Forte III speakers (little brother of the La Scala) and a Tube Audio Lab Type 45 which is a poor-man's version of the circuit the Thomas Mayer uses. I've had a ton of other amps go through my system, but I keep coming back to the 1.5 watt Type 45 amp. There's something about it that just sounds real.
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I have a pair of Charney Audio horns built on the tractrix theory. All his horns will mate well with low power amps, tube and solid state. Charney is in Somerset NJ and will do auditions on request. Well worth the visit and time.
http://charneyaudio.com/ Click on the "Part-Time Audiophile" link and read what John Richardson has to say about his visit.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=175946)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=175940)
Hey!
Back in 2015 at the NY Audio Show I heard, I think the same exact model and drivers you have there. Even though it was in a hotel room, I was impressed with the sound from those speakers and as a system. And I was pretty sure that they will sound even better when set up right in a better room. Definitely worth checking them out for anyone looking for a single driver speaker system.
Buddy
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Mine!
DIY 2 way Altec CD and Horn and Jensen 15" Woofer all from the 1950's.
98db 16ohms.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199073)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199074)
I bet these sound great. What kind of crossover do these have? Who designed them?
-dGB
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Hey!
Back in 2015 at the NY Audio Show I heard, I think the same exact model and drivers you have there. Even though it was in a hotel room, I was impressed with the sound from those speakers and as a system. And I was pretty sure that they will sound even better when set up right in a better room. Definitely worth checking them out for anyone looking for a single driver speaker system.
Buddy
Buddy great to see you here on AC again 8). Yes those are the exact horns you listened to at the 2015 NY Audio Show. Charney did a few needed minor improvements and sold them to me as demos a few months later. Thanks for the kind words.
Chris
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Surprised that there hasn't been (any) discussion of Audio Note. I was really impressed with the N when I auditioned them.
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I bet these sound great. What kind of crossover do these have? Who designed them?
-dGB
I made the xovers based on JE Labs design.
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I made the xovers based on JE Labs design.
Nicely done. What CD you have on the 32 horn?
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I think that for the purposes of this discussion most amps are well below 10w. A Pass ACA at 5-8w would be a qualifying SS amp.
dave
so a 15w Bakoon 11R would not qualify?
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so a 15w Bakoon 11R would not qualify?
According to the guidelines for this circle, 15 watts qualifies as low wattage. Most low wattage amps are 10 watts or less, but anything 25 watts or less can be considered as low wattage.
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My old Welbourne Laurels produced ~8W stock. Cy Brenneman added a fixed bias and some other little mods and he tells me he cut the distortion in half while raising the output to 11W. I run these with Western Electric 300Bs.
They make plenty of power for my speakers which put out ~110db 1w/1m. The Cogent field coil drivers are pretty much unobtanium now though. The set up is not complete yet: custom mounting racks are in progress and there is some minor tweaking to the network still.
System overview:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204915)
Rendering of the racks in progress:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204997)
Racks welded up:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205047)
Pink noise at the listening position, no smoothing:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205044)
The wooden area around and behind the mains are the visible portions of the built in 30Hz bass horns that run on different amps with a passive line level 2nd order 65Hz low pass. Here is one of the mouths as the loft was nearing completion:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205046)
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System overview:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204915)
HOLY SHIT!
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Great photos ESO, thanks for posting :thumb:
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I take it your room is an Attic space. Yo have me thinking about my attic for a system. What size is your space ? Beautiful work BTW, looks great.
charles
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Thanks everybody. A lot of work in that space.
It's actually a loft above my garage. It was an open rafters when we bought the house. I built the floor and then everything else.
The room footprint is ~13'w X 18'l. The pony walls down each side are ~3' high. The voids behind the record cases are stuffed with insulation and act as bass traps. The entire room is the system.
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Thanks everybody. A lot of work in that space.
It's actually a loft above my garage. It was an open rafters when we bought the house. I built the floor and then everything else.
The room footprint is ~13'w X 18'l. The pony walls down each side are ~3' high. The voids behind the record cases are stuffed with insulation and act as bass traps. The entire room is the system.
Sweet and very well done Sir. A joy to look at.
charles
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It just so happens I am putting together a low watt system for myself. I recently purchased a Pass ACA Class A that is putting out 8wpc. My Focal 806V bookshelf with Focal stands don't go low enough for the amp. After a lot of thought and deliberation, and several emails with Eric at Tekton Design, he recommended that I go with the Enzo XL. I have yet to decide on what type of finish to get. Here is a picture of the Enzos I found online. I am using the same type of Ikea Expedit that's in the picture.
(https://i.imgur.com/A15aZqe.jpg)