Japanese Chef's knives

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #60 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 05:21 am »

My friend got one of those for his mom because he was tired of sharpening knives for her. He's a freehand only guy. Was top recommended by America's Test Kitchen or something. We tried it out. It removes A LOT of metal, and it's not even that easy to use. Try the sharpmaker or lansky if you want easy to use. The sharpmaker is probably the easiest to set up and start sharpening.

If you WANT to remove a lot of metal, this is a fast way.

accent · « **Reply #61 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 05:49 am »

Under the Asian knives I found no cimeter or scimitar type fillet knives. Only under Forscher did I find the style we use offshore and most fish processors out hear use. Is this a western thing or better said what would be the equivalent in these superknives?

MMM

jules · « **Reply #62 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 06:17 am »

Well I'm biased of course brj but given that a knife can last a lifetime I reckon they're pretty good value at around the $100 mark. Certainly for professionals they're close to a no brainer. Some knives, like the Hattori damascus KD series with prices starting at $300 and working up are just superb but for practical use a Shun or the HD damascus are more realisitic. You'll notice that some of the more expensive stuff comes in fancy lined boxes and some of them are only laminated on one side! This would work but I think a fair part of the cost here is going into the show aspect of the knife. I find some of the multi-coloured handles quite tacky

.

Ooheadsoo's sharpening suggestions offer a good alternative to freehand but another option is to find someone who can show give you a start on hand sharpening and just practice till it works. There's flexibility and sharpening options possible by hand that can't be achieved with jigs. In another of my past lives I used to teach knife sharpening so I've watched people mastering the basics and moving on.

Hmmm ... maybe I should become a knife salesman

jules

Can't remember seeing one in there either accent. Scanpan might do one as they're Danish.

This site is quite easy to browse and might yield something close enough to what you want ...

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/noname1.html

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #63 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 06:44 am »

Quote from: jules on 9 Jul 2007, 03:57 am

Go Rob, buy a ceramic ... and a couple of shuns as well !

As far as the "daily sharpen" goes ... this was something I arrived at from trial and error rather than from becoming obsessive . I suppose it would vary a great deal depending on what style of food prep. you happened to be involved with. I notice that KFC [and McDonalds?] have managed to totally eliminate knives from their workplaces. The stuff I was doing was highly knife intensive with very little mechanized gear. Immediately after using a stone, running a steel over a blade has a sort of soft feel to it and it actually sounds slightly different. After a day of using a steel every half minute of use [and we've all seen butchers doing this] the edge doesn't recover in the same way so it's back to the stone.

I wonder, with these systems like Lansky of which I know nothing, if they are kind to blades in terms of the amount of metal they take off in the long term. Anyone know ... ???

jules

The Lansky merely maintains the angle- you run the stone. So unless you go nuts, you don't take off much steel. The Lansky really works quite well. I can use stones freehand, but I'm not egotistical- the Lansky does a better job.

Again, it's just stones with an angle guide that eliminates that 1 stroke out of 10 that isn't quite accurate. I do almost all the meat cutting for my restaurant, but there's butchers and packing plant guys who're probably much better with freehand stones than I am. With my own knives I only need to sharpen ever couple weeks, just steel the rest of the time. But my current gig isn't really a steakhouse, per se, and we buy top sirloins already cut. Back when I cut tops, too, I found I sometimes had to sharpen daily depending on the knife. Hard to image doing that just cutting a few tendloins, a couple striploins and ribeyes each day.

I use a knife fairly intensely at times, but as management I do don't a lot of rough prep. This actually bums me out to a degree- I find veggie prep particularly to be a form of 'moving meditation.'

I love to turn a case of red peppers into a mountain of fine julienne, and dicing a case of romas by hand can be quite relaxing. On the one hand you're focused on the task and totally in the moment, but after a time you become machanistic and your consciousness just "expands."

jules · « **Reply #64 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 06:56 am »

nice post Rob, I can relate to all of that even if you do imply I'm an egotistical nutter to do freehand knife sharpening

It doesn't matter much if it's meat or veggies but one way or another the result is much more pleasing if it's done by hand rather than by machine.

jules

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #65 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:23 am »

Quote from: jules on 9 Jul 2007, 06:56 am

nice post Rob, I can relate to all of that even if you do imply I'm an egotistical nutter to do freehand knife sharpening

It doesn't matter much if it's meat or veggies but one way or another the result is much more pleasing if it's done by hand rather than by machine.

jules

I didn't mean to imply that.

I'd love to practice and get to where you are, but I'm a chef, not necessarily an expert at sharpending. I have "more important" duties than maintaining my own tools. Look at it this way- Jeff Gorgon is hell and Jesus behind the wheel, but he doesn't turn a wrench! He has guys much better than him for that. Even Alton Brown claims to leave actual sharpening to the pros.

Freehand sharpening is, nowadays, almost an exotic skill. Again, I can do a pretty good job but I'm not sure you'd want me to sharpen your $500 Shun Pro 2!

Back in SF, before I transferred here, we had a professional come in and sharpen our knives once per month. He had stone, strops, the whole nine yards. They always came back shaving sharp, and didn't I ususally didn't even bother to take my personal knives to work.

jules · « **Reply #66 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:36 am »

aagh Rob, I was being somewhat evil there in my interpretation

....

I've got to admit I'm tempted by $500 knives but I think I'll exercise restraint and limit my expenditure to max. $150. There's some great working stuff available at that cost and mounted cases on the wall are sort of missing the point ... like a sound system you can't listen to.

jules

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #67 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 09:14 am »

Yeah, very sensible. Still, those Henckels Twin Cermax and Shun Pro 2 knives are awfully sexy...

Pez · « **Reply #68 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 07:14 pm »

I agree, anything you buy ultimately has to be usable. But who among us can say honestly that there isn't one item we possess that we value so much we never use it for it's intended purpose. For me it's my brain.

IronLion · « **Reply #69 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 08:22 pm »

So as an owner of two Shun knives, one classic and one Pro (single-edged pro actually, no idea how to sharpen that...), how should I go about sharpening these babies? They're still incredibly sharp, but the day will come in the future when they will need a re-sharpening. Personally I'd rather trust a professional service to do it for me, if they exist and wouldn't mess the knives up, as I think I would just ruin the blade...

Imperial · « **Reply #70 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 10:15 pm »

http://www.kitchenkapers.com/shyoshkn.html

Uhm... In the really old days, before the advent of japanese stuff, us norwegians sometimes tried to
bring new thinking into the equation... didn't always work out too well...

Erik the Viking, with a sharp sword, tested on his beard, with ill effect...Oops!

Say Erik, we told you to stop playing games...
First you loose the beard, now you try to promote smiling!!
Get on the ship! And we don't wanna hear about that central rudder of yours!!!!
And we're leaving the wetstones, you hear???It ain't natural for stones to suck water!!!

Imperial

jules · « **Reply #71 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 11:05 pm »

IronLion ...

you've got good reason to be careful in choosing who you get to sharpen those knives. Some professionals use belts and grinding wheels that can remove a lot of metal fast and do a fairly crude job at the same time. So if you choose to go this way, take care and get a good reference first.

If you choose to have a go yourself you can either get one of those jigs mentioned earlier in this thread or develop some skills in doing it by hand. Imperial's link looks ok but you might like to check this one too ...

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html

It's slightly more detailed.

If you want to try DIY sharpening you shouldn't be too afraid of stuffing up the blade while learning. These blades are incredibly hard and you'll take some time to make an impression before getting anywhere near causing irreversible damage

. You could try practicing on a lesser blade ... maybe a steak knife or something. This way, you get a better idea of what is happening at a relatively rapid rate and you can practice different approaches.

With really hard blades, the loss of edge can be quite slow. So slow in fact that you don't notice it's happened until you re-sharpen the blade only to be amazed at the difference. If you've had the Shuns for a while it might be worth checking things out one way or another.

jules

Imperial · « **Reply #72 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 11:21 pm »

Yup. The link provided by jules here is better .
To get a knife REALLY sharp is really about a little patience and starting with the right set of tools and method!

I tend to end it all with a leather belt, and a very fine stone and the steps shown in jules link there.
I like the leather belt for the last bit of finishing...

Some youtube instructionals:
http://www.youtube.com/user/KawanoDominique (how to sharpen a chef knife)

Imperial

jules · « **Reply #73 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 11:39 pm »

Oh ... should have thought of this earlier ... good, safe test for blunt edge ... With very good light behind you [the sun if possible], hold the blade edge on [cutting edge nearest and spine furthest away] and check for any reflections from the edge. This will certainly show up any nicks but it also shows up any other areas that might have lost their edge. This allows you to sharpen selectively as required.

jules

lazydays · « **Reply #74 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 04:11 am »

Quote from: Imperial on 9 Jul 2007, 11:21 pm

Yup. The link provided by jules here is better .
To get a knife REALLY sharp is really about a little patience and starting with the right set of tools and method!

I tend to end it all with a leather belt, and a very fine stone and the steps shown in jules link there.
I like the leather belt for the last bit of finishing...

Some youtube instructionals:
http://www.youtube.com/user/KawanoDominique (how to sharpen a chef knife)

Imperial

several years ago I saw a fellow sharpening his wood carving chisels, and he used a basic orange india stone follwed with a red one (red ones are denser and harder). After that he went to a white hard Arkansas stone. When he was done with these stones he had a leather belt that was diamond impregnated, and then a lightly oiled leather belt for the final lap. He chisels were so sharp that you could easilly shave with them.
gary

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #75 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 04:15 am »

Diamond impregnated strop sounds very wrong...

lazydays · « **Reply #76 on:** 11 Jul 2007, 06:14 pm »

Quote from: ooheadsoo on 10 Jul 2007, 04:15 am

Diamond impregnated strop sounds very wrong...

After watching the show I gave it a try with a two foot long piece of leather belting (two ply) that was three inches wide. I soaked the leather in light spindle oil for a couple days, and then wiped all the oil off it (as best I could). I then tacked it flat on a two inch thick slab of hard maple, and dusted it with diamond dust. After this I impreged the diamond dust in the leather with a hard steel roller I used to impreg diamond dust into cast iron plates for lapping surface plates. Worked very good, and went on to use it for about five years. Re-impreged the dust in it once a year, and soaked it in light oil a couple times a year. Took that last burr off the edge very easilly with only a few strokes. I check my carving chisels a couple weeks ago, and you can still shave with them. Might add that the dry leather strop I use is a 2 1/2" wide piece of leather made of the same material. One piece will last a couple of life times if used properly.
The final test of the diamond strop was when a buddy took a Kissing Crane pocket knife and sharpened it via the same steps. He then lapped it on the diamond strop, and finished it out on the dry strop. He was able to split human hair with it.
gary

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #77 on:** 11 Jul 2007, 06:57 pm »

I always thought the strop was to re-align the edge, not get rid of the burr, like an extra fine hone. If it works, though, then it works. I certainly don't have the skill to sharpen sharp enough to split hair, diamond strop or no. I can shave paper once in a while, but not consistently.

BradJudy · « **Reply #78 on:** 11 Jul 2007, 08:12 pm »

Hmmm...cooking.com has Henckels 4-star on sale. I'm tempted to get a santoku to add to my Henckels Pro-S knives. Combined with a Discovercard cooking.com gift card, that's a very nice deal.

Pez · « **Reply #79 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 04:12 pm »

Brad,
Those discover pts really help out! We use are all the time for kitchenware and music at Borders.