AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Music Reference => Topic started by: fastfred on 7 Sep 2012, 08:03 am
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My name is Fred Petersen (username fastfred). Being a brand "spankin" new member of Audio/Circle, I'd like to say I'm impressed with what I've read so far (at least in the Music Reference tm area). I'm a member of CANUCK AUDIO MART an online site primarily focused on selling used audio equipment, along the lines of AUDIOGON. One of the forum threads on Canuck is titled "What hurts hi-end audio the most?" A recurring theme is the issue of the high price of Hi end audio, the tweeks, the mods, speaker cable & interconnect wire prices. Not long ago my friend chief engineer & owner of S.A.R. LABS Walter Romanyshyn said to me, while having a discussion about audiophile speaker wire ....."look at the wires in these Tannoy Monitor Golds which connect the cross/over to the driver. (a very thin wire).Now tell me what possible improvement could be heard by attaching garden hose sized speaker cable to these binding posts." I had a moment of clarity at that time. (because, I'm ashamed to say I'm guilty of wasting lots of cash on tweaks in general & wire in particular. I don't want to consider even for a second how much cash & time I wasted). (wonder what I can get for my old cables?).
Since that conversation with my friend I started researching speaker cable & came across several companies that looked interesting, as well as reasonably priced, Paul Spelz anti/cable & MapleShade Golden Helix, both speaker cable designs are of twisted pair configuration. What prompted me to join the circle was the Tuning Fuses thread Roger started back in April. I'd be interested in hearing from other members about experiences they've had along these lines. Here's a couple of quotes from the Tuning Fuses thread that resonate with me (I'm a punny guy)......
quote.............."I read with some laughter, dismay and sadness the follow up on Stereophile May 22, 2012. page 109 concerning the latest hype of Tuning Fuses. Besides my opinion that these are a horrible waste of good money I want to let readers know that these fuses can damage your equipment......unquote. log onto the thread for more enlightenment" ......... unquote
Let me first say that posting this thread (Tuning Fuses) took a lot of courage. KUDOS Roger.
More good advice from Roger..........
quote..........."I know it's difficult to do, but if audiophiles would take the money they are tempted to spend on useless tweaks and start a savings account for that money, in some time they would have enough to buy something like a better pair of speakers, new amplifier or something that would really make a difference in their listening"[/b]..............unquote
I e-mailed Roger about the tuning fuse thread & enquired about whether to include this post in that thread or to start a new one, as he said because of the emotional nature of the speaker wire, interconnect, mains cable debate, he didn't think people would care for his views.......more about this at the end.
I'm not sure if the people selling these upgrades/accessories/tweeks are aware that they are perpetrating a hoax or not, but the designers and engineers have to be!..........I'm not debating whether speaker & interconnect wire can improve the sound of a system or not, point of fact they do change the sound, whether it's an improvement or not is debateable, in fact spkr. & interconnect wire may, with the correct choice improve it, & with the wrong choice destroy the sound. My complaint is the price we're being charged. Here is another pompous insult to my intelligence, these products from Furutech et all, the so called audiophile grade wall receptacle. The word audiophile grade on any product is a licence to print money. As if Hubble hospital grade wasn't good enough, (I guess your hearing is more important than your life, Hospital grade quality means it has to be fail safe ie. life saving). Here are some price comparisons from an online audio store. The Wattgate 381 @$320 versus Hubble 8300 @ $40 is a 128 percent markup. The Tuning Fuse @ $46 versus the Radio Shack fuse @ 10 cents is a whopping 46,000 percent markup according to my online percentage calculator. Imagine Sharmin Audiophile Grade toilet paper. A case of Sharmin at a price of 80 cents a roll would increase to $368 per roll. Picture the Sharmin Bears using their left paw. (ouch). I'm actually amazed it took them as long as it did to develop an Audiophile grade fuse I wasn't surprised to see them advertised, you would think the quality would be there oh well (caveat emptor). Any thing more than $500 max for cable products for an audio system is too much in my opinion. Here is a excerpt of an e-mail I sent Roger while pondering whether to post a new thread or reply to The Tuning Fuses thread........
.........My interest was piqued when reading an internet article on Paul Spelz (anti-cable) a thin solid core twisted pair design which uses a laminated (painted on) insulation. I decided to experiment with thinner speaker wire first, moving from Kimber 8TC to Kimber 4TC. This seemed to bring a noticeable improvement in detail to my system. I discovered a similiar cable along the lines of (anti/cable). Mapleshade Audio Golden Helix speaker cable (a silver plated ofc design). This stuff is so thin you could use it for interconnect. I ordered the Golden Helix & hooked it up to my S.A.R. Labs Mos 300. Approximately 90 watts per channel. Well imagine my surprise, when I went from Kimber 4TC to Mapleshade Audio Golden Helix, the results were even more apparent. At the risk of being repetitous, my system had more detail with this twisted pair solid core design than with my Kimber cable. Here is Roger's reply......quote
........."The Mapleshade products tend to use very thin and fragile wire and if the speaker cables are indeed quite thin and have appreciable resistance that will likely be the first effect you will hear. unquote.........Quote "As to my writing about cables, I don't think I have anything to say that most people want to hear. There are to many controversial beliefs in cables out there. Thanks for your loyal support and feel free to start a thread on my audiocircle and see what others have to say."
Well I think I've said enough for now. I know I've covered a lot of territory & subject matter here. I'm definitely interested in hearing about wire issues especially speaker wire. As for the Tuning Fuses thread, I have so much more to say about ethics in reference to that thread I'll be posting some related thoughts tomorrow afternoon.
...................... Fred Petersen (fastfred)
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Fred,
Thanks for the posting and quotes. I have been aware of the Mapelshade cables for some time and while I feel this person makes some very nice wood products I do not agree with his ideas about cables. I do not single him out as I do not agree with the ideas of many of the cable makers. They appear to be bent on making something that sounds different and they hope the listener will find their different better. However these differences are mostly colorations due to what they have put into their cables. If a maker gives you as little as an extra half ohm in a cable and you have a very high damping amp and speaker that is very sensitive to output impedance then you now have added a coloration. If the cable adds half an ohm of resistance and you like that sound then you could just as well add a one half ohm resistor that costs $1 or an exotic Vishay plate resistor for $10. If you like that you could experiment with different value resistors at a much lower cost than different cables.
I have toyed with the idea of offering cables and I would only do it to provide something nice at a reasonable price as I do with all my products. I do make custom cables for my customers who request them. My cables just do their job with no particular sonic claims other than to provide as neutral of a connection as possible. I could not sleep at night if I made the kind of claims the cable and power cord people make. It also saddens me that many audiophiles can be duped into thinking that making a wall outlet out of solid teflon is better than the regular plastic. Just how does the dialectric constant of the plastic enter into the audio chain at the wall outlet?
Once again I state my belief that the cable mania is a result of audiophiles having spent significant sums on their systems feel that they must put some commenserate amount of money into their interconnects. I would suggest that rather than buy the snake oil from the writers of such deceptive prose that they work on their sound treatments, buy a new rug for their listening room, some new art to enjoy or a nice chair to sit in.
Some years ago I visited a man who had easily $100,000 in his system. He had also designed a room in his new home specifically for his music listening. He had the fancy cables and all that. The room was roughtly cubic, had hard masonry walls, bare tile floor, no rug, no curtains, nothing on the walls. He had been using the room like that since he built the house 2 years before. He asked me how I liked his system. I told him couldn't make any evaluation in that room. The echo was so bad we had to go outside just to talk. I can't understand how a person can miss such an obvious problem. Just a rug and some curtains would have made an enormous difference. And I would love to have a word with the architect (if there was one) who designed an equal sided cube for a listening room.
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The op agrees the wires may change the sound, Bravo, usually the complaint is all wires sound the same.
As for prices? What the market will support. Also the fact some folks are impressed by a high price alone. ("they would never charge so much unless the stuff was really good")
((though I am also against the ulta high prices of tweaks, which can have cheap home made versions for pennies))
For myself i care less what others do or do not do. Free country.
For newbies seeking suggestions and answers though, I suggest a good 'compromise' is the 10% rule. Spending about 10% of total equipment cost, amp, TT CD player, preamp Speakers.. all of it, 10% of that on TOTAL cost of all wires: powercords, interconnects, speaker wires.
The 10% allows some better wires, and where the biggest bang for the buck is, but keeps the new person for mistakenly thinking a high priced cord is more important than the basic electronics.
I own $5K per item equipment, and spend 10% or so. (I do confess i own some expensive power conditioners I bought used, which if added to the cost of 'wires', run up the percentage some.)
Naturally there will be exceptions, and the rare person for whom a $2,000 powercord on a $300 CD player is nirvana. So be it. Who cares?
Primarily IMO, the issue is the division between the folks who try stuff and "if" it SOUNDS BETTER TO THEM, that's great. ("who cares what other say...")
And the folks who can't hear hardly anything, and do stuff because some GURU told them to do it. Or REFUSE to do anything becuse some OTHER guru told them it is all quackery.
Think for yourself. :thumb:
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I use BJC-LC1. If your cable sounds different than mine, it's no longer a cable. It's a filter.
Doc
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I use BJC-LC1. If your cable sounds different than mine, it's no longer a cable. It's a filter.
Doc
Maybe if your cables sound different than mine then your cables are the filter??
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I'd pretty much agree. There's mostly subtle differences between 2 decent cables, be it power, IC or SC.
However, some cables I've tried don't sound that great, like the Speltz anti cable or any other magnet wire type cable... it produces an off tone in many acoustic instruments.
So, I wouldn't say it's not worth trying different cables, I've built a lot of my own, but there's no reason to obsess or spend a lot of money... once you find something that works well in your system I think there's better things to worry about. IMO, spending more than $2-300 for a cable is getting too far into the dark side... and I do think it's an issue, it makes the entire hobby look bad.
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and I do think it's an issue, it makes the entire hobby look bad.
I think what makes the entire hobby look bad is when people push their agenda on new people to the hobby. When someone asks about an entry level system that sounds bright (or whatever) and rather than asking and guiding on basic things like placement they suggest an interconnect. Or when someone asks about speaker cables and they are met with remarks about how people are stupid to waste their money on anything but zip cord, don't be an idiot.
The OP mentions wasting money on useless tweaks...Yes, I think we all agree that useless tweaks are a waste of money.
It's what is and what is not useless that we tend to have trouble with.
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It's what is and what is not useless that we tend to have trouble with.
I agree, but that is also a personal decision. I don't want to waste a lot of time and money over things that are barely perceivable differences, but some do... or they imagine the differences to be bigger than they really are.
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I'll throw my 2 cents in - though this kinda topic has probably been beat to death.
About a year + I started giving more serious consideration to cables of all types (interconnects / power / speaker / etc). Once thing I found out quickly is that a "bad" cable regardless of brand / cost can really muck up your sound - and this includes cables from famous makers. I'll even go out on a limb and name one: Audioquest. I haven't had one Audioquest interconnect or speaker cable that didn't deaden unacceptably my sound. Maybe if you had super bright equipment it would make sense. Even mid-range Monster Cable has been a lot better.
On the other end, I haven't found any cable that miraculously & hughly "improves" sound. At the very best maybe a 20% improvement if I had to try to quantify it. Guess this is why this should be the last and least expensive investment.
At best to me it's been a combo of "fine tuning" akin to having an equalizer - which honestly would probably be a better and cheaper investment if they weren't so out of favor. The upshot I think is that cables can help tilt somewhat your sound in one direction or another - the result hopefully being that it tilts in the direction you want and is subjectively more pleasing to you. This is why I don't believe in "better" vs "worse" - it really is system & listener dependent.
Lastly, I've actually found in some cases that a power cable makes a bigger difference than an interconnect. I was also a skeptic thinking how is a thicker and/or better cable middle link gonna improve things when on either end is thinner and inferior stuff. I still don't completely understand why, all I know is that it can based on personal listening experience, and I've used third parties to sit and listen and confirm the difference so as to prove to me it wasn't all in my head / bias.
With all that said, I still try always to keep any cable costs to less than $200 a pair or individual power cables, and honestly I think with some experience on what you've liked or not, and some handiness, you could build or have someone build something for you for far less. From commercially made stuff, I tend to go Wireworld for interconnects and powercords because I know how they sound, they are well made, and the lower end models I go for are still perhaps more expensive than they should be, but not so much so where I feel like a sucker. I am slightly a sucker for pretty cables - so I'll pay somewhat more for that vs a homebrew if all else is equal.
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At best to me it's been a combo of "fine tuning" akin to having an equalizer - which honestly would probably be a better and cheaper investment if they weren't so out of favor. The upshot I think is that cables can help tilt somewhat your sound in one direction or another - the result hopefully being that it tilts in the direction you want and is subjectively more pleasing to you. This is why I don't believe in "better" vs "worse" - it really is system & listener dependent.
Good point. I have built enough cables that I can make them sound the way I want... one benefit of doing a lot of DIY cables over the years.
One time I had a clear/bright/detailed IC (made with a single run of 26g 5N silver, cotton insulated) and a warm, bassy IC (8 strands of 26g 6N copper, same cotton ins). In two different systems the results were exactly opposite, synergy was great with one and poor with the other.
This can certainly be a problem for people, it is not always easy to tell which cable will work best with your system. Although, I still think I can make decent cables for any system... if I hear the system first I think I can make better cables for it. For most people I think Roger's idea to make a neutral cable that will suit most if not all systems is the way to go, especially for people that will not try and/or build many cables.
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The fact tone controls disappeared about the same time as the rise of aftermarket interconnects is not a coincidence. It was a PLOT, an evil evil plot.
IF you have tone controls, what need of wierd interconnects. Without tone controls, then you need special interconnects to fine tune your setup.
A conspiracy.
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...Walter Romanyshyn said to me, while having a discussion about audiophile speaker wire ....."look at the wires in these Tannoy Monitor Golds which connect the cross/over to the driver. (a very thin wire).Now tell me what possible improvement could be heard by attaching garden hose sized speaker cable to these binding posts." I had a moment of clarity at that time. (because, I'm ashamed to say I'm guilty of wasting lots of cash on tweaks in general & wire in particular. I don't want to consider even for a second how much cash & time I wasted). (wonder what I can get for my old cables?).
So I'm a little confused. You had them and liked them, yet someone told you they don't do anything so now you will sell them?
Or you had them and didn't like them? So what does his comment have to do with that??
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Good point. I have built enough cables that I can make them sound the way I want... one benefit of doing a lot of DIY cables over the years.
One time I had a clear/bright/detailed IC (made with a single run of 26g 5N silver, cotton insulated) and a warm, bassy IC (8 strands of 26g 6N copper, same cotton ins). In two different systems the results were exactly opposite, synergy was great with one and poor with the other.
This can certainly be a problem for people, it is not always easy to tell which cable will work best with your system. Although, I still think I can make decent cables for any system... if I hear the system first I think I can make better cables for it. For most people I think Roger's idea to make a neutral cable that will suit most if not all systems is the way to go, especially for people that will not try and/or build many cables.
Sounds like I should talk to you about making me some cables.........
My default IC is the Wireworld Oasis 6 because it is very neutral - and has good depth & width. BUT - if I can achieve the same thing w/out having to pay the $75 / $80 for 1M I think they've been costing me, I'd be happy.
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Sounds like I should talk to you about making me some cables.........
My default IC is the Wireworld Oasis 6 because it is very neutral - and has good depth & width. BUT - if I can achieve the same thing w/out having to pay the $75 / $80 for 1M I think they've been costing me, I'd be happy.
That sounds like a good price... if you found a cable you like the best upgrade is copper connectors IMO. They are expensive but if you can get rid of all the brass (or worse, steel or zinc) connectors in your system that is a worthwhile upgrade over buying higher priced cables. And it actually makes sense since copper is something like 300%+ more conductive vs brass. In my system the difference was well worth it, as always ymmv...
For ICs, I have not found a good economical solution, you're looking at $50+ for a set of 4 plugs from Eichmann, Furutech, Neotech or Vampire to get a copper center pin, and about that much for just a pair of copper RCA jacks.
I replaced all my binding posts with Pomona 3770 ($8.60/ea x 8, Mouser, etc.) gold plated copper posts.
So altogether that adds a few hundred to the bill on cables and connectors, assuming you install it all yourself, but is a much better upgrade vs. any cable that uses decent conductors and construction. Especially the binding posts and replacing any steel push-on type connectors in your speakers with a solder connection...
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The wireworld oasis 6 is the lowest cost IC w/ their "silver tube" plug that is silver clad OFC contacts with no brass or nickel. It's a patented plug they make which always seemed to me a quality connector.
Guess if the option is $50+ just for similar quality plugs, then about $80 for a fully made 1M pair is not too bad after all.....
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Quote sebrof
Jr. Member
Re: The great Debate speaker wire, voodoo/pseudo science, vs. common sense
« Reply #11 on: Today at 01:21 am »
Quote from: fastfred on 7 Sep 2012, 08:03 am
...Walter Romanyshyn said to me, while having a discussion about audiophile speaker wire ....."look at the wires in these Tannoy Monitor Golds which connect the cross/over to the driver. (a very thin wire).Now tell me what possible improvement could be heard by attaching garden hose sized speaker cable to these binding posts." I had a moment of clarity at that time. (because, I'm ashamed to say I'm guilty of wasting lots of cash on tweaks in general & wire in particular. I don't want to consider even for a second how much cash & time I wasted). (wonder what I can get for my old cables?).........................
So I'm a little confused. You had them and liked them, yet someone told you they don't do anything so now you will sell them? Or you had them and didn't like them? So what does his comment have to do with that??
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I'm not sure why you're confused, but, I will try to clarify what I meant by answering your question with a question. What exactly do you mean by " you had them & liked them" what did I have & like? I'm confused!
In the interest of clarity I'll try to paraphrase Walter, the wire going from the binding post to the crossover & from the crossover to the voice coil is proportionally much smaller than the speaker wire connecting the amp to the speaker. Therefore is it not counterproductive to use that particular speaker wire? Counterproductive both sonically as well as financially.
Hope this helps
.................... fastfred
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Cables can change the sound of your system three ways.
1. If the gauge is so small that it adds significant resistance to the signal path.
2. If the cables are unshielded so they pick up and insert RFI into your system. (Test to see if you have RFI in your room, turn on TV, does it work? You have RFI)
3. If the cables are designed to trade off series inductance for capacitance. Then you are just tying a big capacitor across your output terminals. Bad idea!
Whoops, I forgot one more system changing issue with cables. If they have gonzo oversized termination hardware they can easily damage your equipment, such as monster space lugs that have to be tightened with a pipe wrench that then breaks the terminals off or allows connections to short together, RCA plugs not to spec that deform jacks, or cables so stiff that when you slightly move your equipment they pop off and short out the system. Lots of nasties happen this way.
The rest? Snake oil.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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For my system, Roger and others have suggested DH Labs speaker cable, which is reasonably priced; I paid about $152 for a 7-ft pair of the T-14 cable. The sound is so natural that one day I came home while my partner was listening to a sports talk show and I thought there was a group of people present in the living room! Amazing! The point is that cables DO make a difference, but you don't have to spend 24 K (I won't mention the brand) on a pair of speaker cables to get great (natural) sound.
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Everything makes a difference. At the end of the day it is in the eye of the beholder. Your opinion is really all that matters. Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one. Be secure in your own decision. Do not let others sway your hearing.
Marketing of products will give some insecurity with their decision making. Just trust what you hear in your system. Does one need an $18,000 cable to get great sound. NO. Will just any cable do ? NO.
Is it snakeoil ? No. Is it common sense ? No. It IS personal preference and most important budget. I'll say this again if cables were say less tha $100 this conversation would not exist. Just listen and make up your own mind.
charles
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In the interest of clarity I'll try to paraphrase Walter, the wire going from the binding post to the crossover & from the crossover to the voice coil is proportionally much smaller than the speaker wire connecting the amp to the speaker. Therefore is it not counterproductive to use that particular speaker wire? Counterproductive both sonically as well as financially.
Hope this helps
.................... fastfred
You mentioned a conversation with someone who implied cables don't make a difference, and as a result of the conversation you mention selling your cables.
My question is - Did you not know you wanted to sell the cables before the guy told you?
Maybe I misread your OP.
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I replaced all my binding posts with Pomona 3707 ($8.60/ea x 8, Mouser, etc.) gold plated copper posts.
Do you mean 3770?
dave
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How refreshing that industry luminaries such as Frank and Roger would speak the truth about the snake oil of cables. There are many others including Siegfried Linkwitz that feel the same. I remember a long time ago James Bongiorno used a few hundred foot roll of 16 GA zip for his speaker wire. He liked the smooth roll off of a one ohm speaker cable that sounded like the large output impedance of a good tube amp.
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Ya! :lol: I remember that too about Bongiorno. :lol: Oh shit, Frank has been trying to tell us the truth about snake oil in HiFi for 30-40 years now.
:smoke:
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Do you mean 3770?
dave
Yeah, I'm getting old(er) and don't remember that kid of thing as well as I used to...
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I think it should also be pointed out that different equipment responds differently to cable changes. My SET amp is not so particular about speaker cable, it'll drive most any cable with only minor variations in sound quality. My class D (tripath) amp can sound very different depending on the speaker cable. So, I'd wager that whatever is driving the output of the piece of equipment has a lot to do with whether or not cables make mu ch of a difference.
I'd also wager that equipment that does sound very different depending on the cable you use is inferior to equipment that does not.
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Yeah, funny how at least half of all audiophiles must be hypnotized to hear a wire difference, and the other half so certain no such difference could possible exist.
Sort of like when The Pope would proclaim the Earth was flat i guess....
LOL.
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The wireworld oasis 6 is the lowest cost IC w/ their "silver tube" plug that is silver clad OFC contacts with no brass or nickel. It's a patented plug they make which always seemed to me a quality connector.
Guess if the option is $50+ just for similar quality plugs, then about $80 for a fully made 1M pair is not too bad after all.....
That looks like a good cable for the money for sure... I haven't tried it myself, but if the connectors are on par with the others I mentioned then that is a good deal on an IC cable. In this case, if you want to upgrade maybe they have a model with OCC copper instead of OFC copper wire.
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On Mid-Fi or similar, speaker cable is not as important as on true Hi-Fi equipment that can flesh out inferior cable or IC's. Then factor in Synergy to the mix. Even with that said, max out at $500.00 for your Speaker Cables (buy used) and let the well heeled spend the stupid money on the cost is no object cables.
Cables do make a difference, but there still is Audiofool overpriced cable out there....
Jim
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It's what is and what is not useless that we tend to have trouble with.
Well said.
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That looks like a good cable for the money for sure... I haven't tried it myself, but if the connectors are on par with the others I mentioned then that is a good deal on an IC cable. In this case, if you want to upgrade maybe they have a model with OCC copper instead of OFC copper wire.
The next model up, the Equinox 6, is all OCC, but retails for 50% more than the Oasis 6 . I tried the Equinox 6 for a while, but just found that the OCC veiled the sound too much, and the bass was not as tight. Don't know if that's a function of the geometry vs the material, but I'm finding in general that OCC tends to do that.
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The next model up, the Equinox 6, is all OCC, but retails for 50% more than the Oasis 6 . I tried the Equinox 6 for a while, but just found that the OCC veiled the sound too much, and the bass was not as tight. Don't know if that's a function of the geometry vs the material, but I'm finding in general that OCC tends to do that.
I'd guess there's something else going on... that is opposite to my experiences. I posted my impressions of the OCC copper wire I've used in several applications in the link below. The IC pictured is so far the best IC I have ever built, it is even better than the Jupiter IC I have that uses 6N OFC copper. It is almost as good, but the high mids to high freqs in the OCC cable are clearer and have more detail. Not much difference in bass.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108749.msg1130357#msg1130357
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The next model up, the Equinox 6, is all OCC, but retails for 50% more than the Oasis 6 . I tried the Equinox 6 for a while, but just found that the OCC veiled the sound too much, and the bass was not as tight. Don't know if that's a function of the geometry vs the material, but I'm finding in general that OCC tends to do that.
I agree with Dave, as every OCC cable I've tried is more transparent and open sounding, while the bass is better defined than any OFC cable. There probably is another factor or two contributing to your finding.
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Beating a dead horse. If a cable sounds "different" something is wrong. There is no reason to purchase megabuck cables. Or high priced interconnects. Or magic pucks, wire lifters, and a whole lot of audiophile junk. The trouble is that magazines make a lot of money running the ads, and audio stores enjoy huge mark ups on those products. Unfortunately even some speaker and amp manufacturers promote this concept. Even though they know better. Fancy power cords? Your amp doesn't care. It converts the house current to DC anyway. That's the equivalent of choosing a pump at the gas station because the fill hose is different. Don't even get me started on bi-wiring your speakers. I am thankful for people like Roger who follow science and explain why they choose to build the way they do.
One last comment on speaker wire. Many pro woofers have four inch voice coils. Each turn is over a foot long. There is a lot of wire in each woofer. Six feet of fancy wound wire will vastly improve the speaker?
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We have one vote for wire is wire from steve f.
Funny how all the melodrama just gets repeated over and over.. like the person thinks they can convince anyone else.
Trust me: No one ever changes their minds reading this stuff...
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Trust me: No one ever changes their minds reading this stuff...
This statement made me change my mind Wink2 :eyebrows:
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We have one vote for wire is wire from steve f.
Funny how all the melodrama just gets repeated over and over.. like the person thinks they can convince anyone else.
Trust me: No one ever changes their minds reading this stuff...
Many times there is only slight or barely audible differences, and combined with components that react differently to cable changes you get a range of different experiences. I think most people that have more experience realize that not only components but also people have different reactions to cable changes... I tend to agree with most of what the OP posted though. My class D amp may react strongly to different speaker cables, but it's a huge POS compared to my SET amp and is only used if I need to repair or upgrade my SET amp. If you only had an amp like my SET amp you'd probably come to the conclusion that cable differences are exaggerated and don't really matter that much. I think a lot of people have crappy gear with questionable power supplies and output sections that make cable changes more pronounced than they should be with better designed equipment. So, most of the time I think money is better spent on better components, but it does take about $100 in materials to even DIY a decent cable, if you had to buy retail I think spending up to a few hundred per cable is reasonable. I'm sure a lot of people would think that's way too much money, but if you want the highest quality connectors, wire and materials out there it's not going to be cheap. I've heard from more than one person how good some of the super expensive WBT nexgen RCA plugs and jacks are, but I can't wrap my head around spending that much cash...
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Elizabeth,
I don't think all wire is wire. A signal can be screwed up by some cables on the market. Then the cable is acting like a high priced tone control. I don't care about anyone's religious wire thoughts. It's their money.
Steve
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Elizabeth,
I don't think all wire is wire. A signal can be screwed up by some cables on the market. Then the cable is acting like a high priced tone control. I don't care about anyone's religious wire thoughts. It's their money.
Steve
Every component is a tone control. Like it or not....
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How refreshing that industry luminaries such as Frank and Roger would speak the truth about the snake oil of cables. There are many others including Siegfried Linkwitz that feel the same. I remember a long time ago James Bongiorno used a few hundred foot roll of 16 GA zip for his speaker wire. He liked the smooth roll off of a one ohm speaker cable that sounded like the large output impedance of a good tube amp.
I use 16 ga zip cord for runs up to 10 feet and would use 14 if I was going farther. Radioshack, Monster and many hardware stores now carry decent stranded heavy gauge speaker wire by the foot. I had lunch with James Bongiorno last week. He is certainly an interesting fellow and his amps have high damping so I'm not sure he would still want an ohm in series. We work hard, especially in tube designs to get the damping to a decent level of 10 which is 0.8 ohms for an 8 ohm speaker. I hate to give more than half of that up in wire resistance. Speakers that have wide impedance swings will be more affected by additional resistance and John Atkinson includes this measurement at the beginning of his amplifier tests. I would also check that first as I believe that is the first large difference we may hear from amp to amp and cable to cable where resistance/damping is an issue.
Which Frank are we quoting here?
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I think that would be Frank Van Alstine :thumb:
:smoke:
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If we forget the pseudoscience for a minute and just think about electronics in general, I think many old timers here can agree with this statement, that most of the time we have trouble with speaker cables or interconnects is with the mechanical connection itself.
In fact, I'd go out on a limb here and say that the majority of what is perceived as an electrical problem, is a mechanical problem.
Look at the back of your system. RCA cables that merely "push on or off" doesn't sound like a good connection to me. A screw on "F" connector does. It's not going to fall off.
Speaker cables can terminate in many ways, from bare wire in a 5-way binding posts, to bananas, forks, pins or what ever. They all loosen up or a film collects on the surfaces, impeding minute signals from passing, unaltered.
The solution is to buy cables that are mechanically sound from wire to connector, using sure-foot techniques for attaching the wire to the connector.
Then use De-oxit 5 to keep the connections clean. I recently did my quarterly De-oxit 5 cleaning and the sound is 3D for sure.
So my point is, there is another side to this wire debate, and that is good housekeeping......
Wayner
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"I had lunch with James Bongiorno last week."
sounds like an interesting meeting of the minds. not to derail the subject but i'd love to hear more as would others here.....cheers Roger!
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You mentioned a conversation with someone who implied cables don't make a difference, and as a result of the conversation you mention selling your cables.
My question is - Did you not know you wanted to sell the cables before the guy told you?
Maybe I misread your OP.
You asked 4 questions here are four answers:
1. You mentioned someone who implied cables don't make a difference, and
as a result of the conversation you mention selling your cables.
answer: I mentioned a conversation where Walter Romanyshyn said
"that in light of the size disparity between internal wire in the cabinet
and the speaker wire connecting the amp to the loudspeaker, was it not impractical
to use large diameter wire between amp & speaker (keyword being said not implied)".
2. As to selling my speaker wire.
answer: because of all the now unused cabling I had accumulated over the years, I was
reflecting on how much time and money I had wasted on speaker wire. It then occurred to me
to wonder what it was worth, not that it was for sale. (this information was in the OP)
3. Did you not know you wanted to sell the cables before the guy told you?
answer............already answered in question 2 I didn't want to sell them
I wondered what they were worth.
4. Maybe I misread your OP.
Answer: ................... maybe?
I think some of us are straying from the original intent of this subject.
Roger paraphrased a large part of what I was trying to convey in this
quote from my original post...........
..........."I know it's difficult to do, but if audiophiles would take the money
they are tempted to spend on useless tweaks and start a savings account for
that money, in some time they would have enough to buy something like a
better pair of speakers, new amplifier or something that would really make a
difference in their listening"..............unquote
...................... Fred Petersen
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i am kind of lost .what do you consider a useless tweak and why? there is a saying that goes something like this ' god does not will the signal'.
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I find that the larger the font in a post, the less impact it makes. Like using all caps, it's a form of shouting.
Steve
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I find that the larger the font in a post, the less impact it makes. Like using all caps, it's a form of shouting.
Steve
First of all I'd like to say that I was shouting; Thanks for pointing out my error in
judgement because the most important point in my last post was lost in the noise.
Namely "let's stick to discussion of speaker wire, interconnect, and tweeks".
Roger himself said in an e-mail to me................
................quote "because of the emotional nature of the speaker wire, interconnect,
mains cable debate, he didn't think people would care for his views"
.............unquote
Keeping this in mind.... The person I was responding to kept coming at the same
subject 3 times asking basically the same question. Every response to my answers
was met with the same question reworded slightly. All the answers to his questions were
in the OP. So in essence I was yelling at him. What I should have done was to ignore him.
My apology to anyone offended by this post. I will modify it appropiately.
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Roger himself said in an e-mail to me................
................quote "because of the emotional nature of the speaker wire, interconnect,
mains cable debate, he didn't think people would care for his views"
.............unquote
I don't think that's been proven to be true... nobody had gotten upset or emotional, except maybe you judging from your font size :wink:
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I don't think that's been proven to be true... nobody had gotten upset or emotional, except maybe you judging from your font size :wink:
I'm 63 years old Dave, yes I caught the wink. And you are correct "that" hasn't proven
to be true it also hasn't been proven false. I for the most part believe that one should have the foundation of a
system before going on the quest for speaker & interconnect wire and tweaks. (I think the advice on saving
money and applying that money to a system is where Roger's quote is coming from). I found that now I have a
system with which I can make an informed decission on the effect different cabling has in my listening room. I
have approximately 20 pairs of speaker wire which to me, most sound terrible. Out of those 20 pairs the wire I
like in order of worst to best is Puresonic competition(I forget the model)it's a flat woven cable in a clear dialectric.
Kimber 8TC (black & blue dialectric). 4TC (black & blue dialectric). Mapleshade Golden Helix ( the jury is out on this one )
I've only used it with my much modified H.H. Scott 299B. I've hooked up my S.A.R. Labs Mos 300 today.
Listening begins after I finish this reply.
What you were winking about Dave...........
.................For the record
I have the beginnings of cataracts in both eyes. The font size I choose is one I'm comfortable with. It's not that
I'm angry or yelling at every one. It's just that I get frustrated by people taking what I say & giving it another
meaning and then challenging me on their interpretation of what I said. The response with the objectionable font
size was the 3rd one. So in order to get him to actually read what was said I made bold or increased font size.
I also am starting to go deaf, people are always shushing me because I speak too loud. I guess I type too
loud as well. I use a large font because I'm aware of my own vision limitations and I assumed there might be other
others in these circles who would appreciate the larger font.
....................... cheers
...................... fastfred
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I use a large font because I'm aware of my own vision limitations and I assumed there might be other others in these circles who would appreciate the larger font.
It would be better if you type in the standard size font, then use the zoom function on your web browser to increase the font size for viewing. This way all of the posts will be easier to read, not just your own.
Also you are apparently using the Return key after each sentence, instead of just letting the text wrap and using the Return key between paragraphs. I like to view with my browser set at 125% zoom, and because of the return after each line, every other line has only two or three words on it (unless I view at 100%).
Steve
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I think that Fred used some other text editing program for his posts, rather than the Quick Reply box. Then the forum firmware took over and sized his post.
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Oh no! Now we have yet another variable to consider: our individual aging issues. ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿
Gotta go lie down now. Time for my nap. t(ツ)_/¯
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If we forget the pseudoscience for a minute and just think about electronics in general, I think many old timers here can agree with this statement, that most of the time we have trouble with speaker cables or interconnects is with the mechanical connection itself.
............. the majority of what is perceived as an electrical problem, is a mechanical problem.
Look at the back of your system. RCA cables that merely "push on or off" doesn't sound like a good connection to me. A screw on "F" connector does. It's not going to fall off.
Speaker cables can terminate in many ways, from bare wire in a 5-way binding posts, to bananas, forks, pins or what ever. They all loosen up or a film collects on the surfaces, impeding minute signals from passing, unaltered. Then use De-oxit 5 to keep the connections clean. I recently did my quarterly De-oxit 5 cleaning and the sound is 3D for sure. So my point is, there is another side to this wire debate, and that is good housekeeping......
Wayner
A light bulb moment, it occurred to me that all the old terrible sounding speaker wire in my collection just needs a good cleaning.
Thanks for that Wayner.
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It would be better if you type in the standard size font, then use the zoom function on your web browser to increase the font size for viewing. This way all of the posts will be easier to read, not just your own.
Also you are apparently using the Return key after each sentence, instead of just letting the text wrap and using the Return key between paragraphs. I like to view with my browser set at 125% zoom, and because of the return after each line, every other line has only two or three words on it (unless I view at 100%).
Steve
I'll eventually catch the play guys just be patient.
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I think that Fred used some other text editing program for his posts, rather than the Quick Reply box. Then the forum firmware took over and sized his post.
thanks for pointing that out to me I was using my word processor & then cutting & pasting my replies.
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Fred,
I'm not sure that I read your post correctly.
Are you saying that you prefer the 4TC over the 8TC or do I have that backwards?
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Old speaker wires... Made me think how many sorts have i owned:
1965:
made up permanent sets of 12 gauge powercord wire with XLRs in middle spaced so i could have nearly any possible lengths from 3 ft to 18 ft. I used those for over 15 years... Since wires were just wires back in those days.
Then I bought some of the MonsterCable thick wires, the ones where they all turned green after a few years..
Then i bought some Audioquest Midnight. used that for 15 years with my Infinity RSIIa
Then i bought some Kimber 8TC, and still use that wire, though I used a temporary set of common wire 12 gauge wires for a short time on my new Magnepan 3.6, and the 8TC were set up to biwire former speakers in a different way than needed for the Magnepan.. Then i bought another set of the clear/white to biwire, using the blue black just for the bass.
So I threw out the AQ wire (gave away). Threw out the Monster into the trash. And sold those original made ones with the speakers..
Who keeps old wires?
47 years of audio. Five sets of speaker wires...
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Fred,
I'm not sure that I read your post correctly.
Are you saying that you prefer the 4TC over the 8TC or do I have that backwards?
Yes you read my post correctly. To me the 4TC seems to be more detailed in the mids & highs in my system. My solid state amp the S.A.R. Labs 90 wpc MOS 300, has prodigious bass which makes any minor bass attenuation effects by the smaller cable irrelavent to me. I have another a pair of speaker wires purchased to go with a Scott 299B integrated amp, which sat on the bench for years. I'm trying that today with my MOS 300. ( MapleShade 'Golden Helix' )
While reading old issues of Vacuum tube Valley I came across the articles on the H.H. Scott 200 series of integrated amps, Joe Roberts also talks about them in Sound Practises magazine. Then I found an article on the MapleShade audio website which highlighted the Scott 222C as being a giant killer. Pierre Sprey, MapleShade owner & recording engineer, claims to use a much modified 222C while mastering their line of cd's & vinyl. He swears by his own Golden Helix cable design. I purchased some Mapleshade Golden Helix cable which has enamel for a dialectric, it is a twisted pair design so thin it could be used for interconnect. I bought this so I could perhaps hear this in my home with the amp it was designed for(the Scott). I had a friend rebuild the entire amp replacing every wire, resistor, and electrolytic cap in the amp, as well as placing auricaps in the signal path. I wanted to be able to listen to the original but modified circuit to be able to hear what the original designer wanted me to hear. I also wanted to hear what Mr. Sprey was hearing with his mods. So we used the tape out jack to connect directly to the power amp section so I can connect an out board Pre/amp, bypassing the pre/amp section in the scott integrated amp. Voila I have an H.H. Scott 299B which at the flip of a switch can be retro or new millenium. I'm auditioning the speaker cable first with my Mos 300. I'll keep you posted to what hear with my S.A.R. AMP & with the Scott. I have scans of the old VTV articles on my web page (www.audiofyle.com) as well as pics of my Scott in various stages of the reassembly. This is where the journey has taken me, I hope everyone is having as much fun.
........................... Fred Petersen
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The fact tone controls disappeared about the same time as the rise of aftermarket interconnects is not a coincidence. It was a PLOT, an evil evil plot.
IF you have tone controls, what need of wierd interconnects. Without tone controls, then you need special interconnects to fine tune your setup.
A conspiracy.
Hello Elizabeth:
I am lax in responding to many of your contributions to this thread. I have to say you are absolutely correct in your assessment of the elimination of tone controls in the hi end. I have an 80's vintage pre/amp much modified by my friend Walter. It has tone controls & with a tone control you can ameliorate the rolled off hi end response caused by some wire designs & vice versa you can tone down high's which are too bright. The same goes for the bass. The tone control can be used as a tool to audition speaker wire and interconnect to determine the product which allows you to run tone control flat or bypassed. Thanks for the reminder. I also agree, it is a definite marketing conspiracy.
The word Hi End came from some snotty add executive or magazine reviewer, back in the 60's & 70's about the time Stereophile & the Absolute Sound started publishing. The phrase Hi End was a substitution for the word High Fidelity. High Fidelity is about music not electronics. I believe the first magazine to publish reviews of audio equipment was High Fidelity Magazine (still being published) and they started doing this because people reading their music reviews complained of not hearing what the reviewers were writing about in their reviews. So they began publishing the equipment the reviewers were using. Which opened the door for Harry Pearson et all.
So you are correct the first so called purist line stages which had no tone controls, no phono stage ushered in the cable industry. In another of your contributions you talked about only owning 5 sets of cable over the years.
Wish I'd been that smart.
....................... Fred Petersen (fastfred)
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I hear ya Fred. Another view I have in place of the teeny-tiny hookup wire in the speakers is the size and banality of the resistor and cap leads these huge wires feed. I assure you these leads are not made of 6N OFC and can't be any larger than 26gauge.
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thanks for the infor. i am going to be selling all my cardas clear wire and will replacing it with good old fashion 16 gauge zip cord. then i will send my speakers to the manufacture to be rewired with zip cord. long live common sense. boy have i been sold a bill of goods over the years.
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Wire gauge is based on amperage. If the world was to rewire everything according to audiophile world, we would simply be out of copper.
In this month's copy of The Absolute Sound is a round-robin discussion with 5 different cable designers from Brisson (Monster Cable, MIT), Cardas, Kimber, Low and Kleij-Rynveld. All of their designs are from different thinking altogether. Supposedly, all of their cable is top of the line, but it reminds me of a mathematical statement: A=B=C=D=E, therefore they are all the same????
So the problem is, they haven't a clue what the problem is, or there is no problem, and yes 16 gauge zip cord can certainly work for most. I do think that the cost of the product quantifies the quality of the sound for many.
Wayner
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Wire gauge is based on amperage. If the world was to rewire everything according to audiophile world, we would simply be out of copper.
In the audio world, wire gauge may also be based on instantaneous rate of change of amperage flowing in the wire...
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Which is very tiny with regards to interconnects, and only slightly larger with speaker wire (at least compared to a Lincoln welder) in which many speaker cable gauges surpass.......
P.S., Try shorting out 3 phase 480 volt lines and see how the amperage changes..........
Wayner
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The fact some people like larger gauge wire for speaker cables and power cables is explained by the fact the lower the impedance, the faster the slew rate. For people with high power amplifiers and inefficient speakers, it makes sense to me that the best cable for the purpose is going to be sized for peak currents rather than average currents, not only that, but there must be some added capacity to allow for the fastest slew rate possible.
So, if you have an amp that puts out 1600 watt peaks, you have 14.14 amps at that peak, which would normally require a 14g wire, but if you double that to reduce the cable's impedance you now have an 8g wire, which is certainly very common, and I don't think it's overkill. If you calculate the same using RMS power, say if it's 400W, that would only require a 19g wire, which isn't enough for an amp that size IMO. So it's not as simple as calculating for wire you'd use for an electrical service in your house...
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I hear ya Fred. Another view I have in place of the teeny-tiny hookup wire in the speakers is the size and banality of the resistor and cap leads these huge wires feed. I assure you these leads are not made of 6N OFC and can't be any larger than 26gauge.
Thanks for that Eric (it is Eric right?) Credit where credit is due some speaker manufacturers do use name brand wire, Tannoy using Van Denhull for example.
This is the exception not the rule.
........................ Fred
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The fact some people like larger gauge wire for speaker cables and power cables is explained by the fact the lower the impedance, the faster the slew rate. For people with high power amplifiers and inefficient speakers, it makes sense to me that the best cable for the purpose is going to be sized for peak currents rather than average currents, not only that, but there must be some added capacity to allow for the fastest slew rate possible.
So, if you have an amp that puts out 1600 watt peaks, you have 14.14 amps at that peak, which would normally require a 14g wire, but if you double that to reduce the cable's impedance you now have an 8g wire, which is certainly very common, and I don't think it's overkill. If you calculate the same using RMS power, say if it's 400W, that would only require a 19g wire, which isn't enough for an amp that size IMO. So it's not as simple as calculating for wire you'd use for an electrical service in your house...
This post has co-mingled several facts and mis-conceptions!
a] Wire and cable end to end impedance or resistance has nothing to do with "slew rate". Slew rate is an amplifier thing.
b] 14 AWG wire is rated at 15 Amps continuous! Continuous in the case is 3 hours steady state. Nothing like an audio amplifier's almost instantaneous peaks.
The peak current for a 14 AWG wire is 166 Amps or more.
c] If you double 14 AWG wire , you have an 11 AWG equivalent.
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This post has co-mingled several facts and mis-conceptions!
a] Wire and cable end to end impedance or resistance has nothing to do with "slew rate". Slew rate is an amplifier thing.
b] 14 AWG wire is rated at 15 Amps continuous! Continuous in the case is 3 hours steady state. Nothing like an audio amplifier's almost instantaneous peaks.
The peak current for a 14 AWG wire is 166 Amps or more.
c] If you double 14 AWG wire , you have an 11 AWG equivalent.
I don't think so... I'll stand behind everything I said except part c.
a.... Slew rate is used to measure the rate of change of voltage an amplifier can produce but it can also be applied to current, and this explains why MANY, MANY people find larger gauge power cords to sound better on amplifiers. Slew rate is simply the instantaneous rate of change of voltage or current. For music signals, we want it to be as fast as possible, and a cable with a lower impedance will accomplish this better than a cable with higher impedance.
b... What, until it melts? This has no bearing on what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about reducing the cable's impedance, with is a sum of LCR, R being what we're talking about here. IMO, it is best to size wire for it's MAXIMUM current, not AVERAGE current as you do when wiring a building. Again, people's preferences for speaker and power cable gauges support this.
c... You are correct, it only takes 10 gauge wire to double the ampacity of a 14g wire.
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Dave, you're co-mingling again.
From [a]
True:
Slew rate is used to measure the rate of change of voltage an amplifier can produce but it can also be applied to current
Slew rate is simply the instantaneous rate of change of voltage or current.
False:
a cable with a lower impedance will accomplish this better than a cable with higher impedance.
Not true:
this explains why MANY, MANY people find larger gauge power cords to sound better on amplifiers.
For music signals, we want it {slew rate} to be as fast as possible,
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Dave, you're co-mingling again.
From [a]
True:
Slew rate is used to measure the rate of change of voltage an amplifier can produce but it can also be applied to current
Slew rate is simply the instantaneous rate of change of voltage or current.
False:
a cable with a lower impedance will accomplish this better than a cable with higher impedance.
Not true:
this explains why MANY, MANY people find larger gauge power cords to sound better on amplifiers.
For music signals, we want it {slew rate} to be as fast as possible,
So no explanation or facts to back up your claims? I'm taking the time to give reasons why I have my theories on cables, you just come here and say I'm wrong with no arguments and no explanation. Seriously? Unless you can back up your claims with some sort of logic or reason why would anyone believe anything you are saying?
You don't think a lower impedance cable can deliver current at a faster rate of change vs a higher impedance one, specifically with regards to R which is what we are talking about? Many, Many people DO NOT think larger gauge PCs are better on amps? And you don't want the slew rate to be as fast as possible? I'd love to hear a coherent explanation for this...
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Let's stick with calling it cable resistance, if we call it it impedance people will confuse it with "radio frequency transmission line characteristic impedance".
No one would be happy with a real high slew rate amplifier, as it would pick-up every radio and TV station in the neighborhood. Experts suggest limiting the amplifier high frequency response to something in the 100kHz to 200kHz range.
The reason we want low resistance speaker cables, is because the cable and the speaker act as a series voltage divider circuit. The speaker's resistance (impedance) varies a lot with frequency, so a high resistance cable will mess up the speaker's frequency response in strange ways.
While it's true that if we measure the volts per microsecond at amps output and then at the speaker terminals of the series divider circuit the values will be different, but then so will the peak values.
A low resistance cable can deliver more current the a high resistance cable to the speaker, but that's not a higher rate of change.
Both the Doug Self and the Bob Cordell amplifier books get in to slew-rate but neither is an easy read.
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I'm talking about the slew rate within the audio bandwidth, not high end frequency response. And I'm talking about the current slew rate that may be different between cables with different resistances, namely that a larger gauge cable can deliver current more quickly than a smaller gauge cable, especially when we are talking about very high power peaks produced by powerful amplifiers. In this situation I am saying that a gauge of cable that equals what you'd normally use for an average current value isn't going to be sufficient and it's better to size your speaker cable for the MAXIMUM power your amp can produce rather than it's RMS rating. In my previous example the difference was 19g vs 14g wire, I'm not sure too many people here would agree than a 19g wire is appropriate for a 400W RMS amp that can produce 1kW+ peaks...
Also, the R you add in a speaker cable is purely resistant (assuming the same geometry, etc), it's in series with the speaker driver's impedance and isn't going to have a huge effect on the driver assuming you're not using extremely undersized wire. Most speaker cables are going to come in at a small fraction of an ohm for R.
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Oh no! Now we have yet another variable to consider: our individual aging issues. ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿
Gotta go lie down now. Time for my nap. t(ツ)_/¯
Good point "EP", that was maybe the most insightful statement of the entire content of the debate. Age is an issue,
it's well known fact,that, as we age our hearing changes. That lucky golden ear who can hear out to 20k will find his
hearing has deteriorated to 15k or lower when he reaches my age. So in addition to ageing issues, the fact that I could
be sitting listening to music with you doesn't mean that I'm hearing what you are. Each and everyone of us hears sound
individually. Perhaps we never will reach consensus on the great debate.
........................ thanks "EP"
........................ Fred Petersen (fastfred)
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Yeah, funny how at least half of all audiophiles must be hypnotized to hear a wire difference, and the other half so certain no such difference could possible exist.
Sort of like when The Pope would proclaim the Earth was flat i guess....
LOL.
The earth is not FLAT??? When did THAT happen?
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The earth is not FLAT??? When did THAT happen?
When eyes are shut instead of open in any direction.
charles
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I'm talking about the slew rate within the audio bandwidth, not high end frequency response. And I'm talking about the current slew rate that may be different between cables with different resistances, namely that a larger gauge cable can deliver current more quickly than a smaller gauge cable, especially when we are talking about very high power peaks produced by powerful amplifiers. In this situation I am saying that a gauge of cable that equals what you'd normally use for an average current value isn't going to be sufficient and it's better to size your speaker cable for the MAXIMUM power your amp can produce rather than it's RMS rating. In my previous example the difference was 19g vs 14g wire, I'm not sure too many people here would agree than a 19g wire is appropriate for a 400W RMS amp that can produce 1kW+ peaks...
Also, the R you add in a speaker cable is purely resistant assuming the same geometry, etc), it's in series with the speaker driver's impedance and isn't going to have a huge effect on the driver assuming you're not using extremely undersized wire. Most speaker cables are going to come in at a small fraction of an ohm for R.
Dave,
Will the whole system still have the benefit of the larger, lower R cable (i.e. current capability) when the cabling is not continued into the speaker via hookup wire, component leads and voicecoil wire? I would think the benefits you mention would only apply in test situations where the cable alone is tested. Wouldn't the speaker system then bottleneck the current flow and cancel out the benefits of large cables? What comes to mind is a stretch of 10 lane super-highway (cabling) that then drops down to a 2 lane road (speaker system) just a few miles before your destination (cone). The capabilities of the 10 lane highway would then be moot due to the limitations of the bottle-necking 2 lane.
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Dave,
Will the whole system still have the benefit of the larger, lower R cable (i.e. current capability) when the cabling is not continued into the speaker via hookup wire, component leads and voicecoil wire? I would think the benefits you mention would only apply in test situations where the cable alone is tested. Wouldn't the speaker system then bottleneck the current flow and cancel out the benefits of large cables? What comes to mind is a stretch of 10 lane super-highway (cabling) that then drops down to a 2 lane road (speaker system) just a few miles before your destination (cone). The capabilities of the 10 lane highway would then be moot due to the limitations of the bottle-necking 2 lane.
Sure, in some cases I'd think that would be true. The internal hook up wire and x-over components can always be upgraded. Most good x-over components are rated for many watts and have decent sized lead outs. Also, the resistance in a wire is a function of the length of wire as well as diameter, so a very short section of smaller diameter wire isn't as big a deal as a longer run, so while the highway analogy fits to a degree, its not exact. I don't think the smaller diameter voice coil winding inside the driver is an issue at all though, this part of the system is designed to be resistive and is where all the force to drive the speaker cone is generated.
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Aah, in electrical power service, short runs of a particular gauge (I believe under 10 feet) can be promoted to the next gauge's amperage handling capacity. Probably for this reason, a fuse element can be of such a small micro gauge, even though some are rated fairly high (like 10 amps).....
Just thought I'd throw that in.......
8)
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Ericus Rex's analogy does not quite fit all cases. If the speaker is a multi-way design, the the current traveling to the speaker is divided after the speaker terminals and distributed to the different drivers. This lessens the current carrying demands on the possibly smaller gauge internal wiring. As has already been pointed out, a short piece of smaller gauge wire can have the same resistance as a much longer piece of larger gauge wire.
You would be surprised at how many times 18 gauge hookup wire is used for the internal wiring in commercial loudspeakers. From
the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge, which assumes that chassis wiring is in air, the amperage rating for 18ga. is 16 amps.
In my own case my speakers were wired from the mfgr. with 12ga. wire, probably overkill but but it's in there.
Scotty
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The reason we want low resistance speaker cables, is because the cable and the speaker act as a series voltage divider circuit. The speaker's resistance (impedance) varies a lot with frequency, so a high resistance cable will mess up the speaker's frequency response in strange ways.
Only on loudspeakers with non-flat (or non-complementary vrs FR) impedance curves -- unfortunately most of them (designers purposely ignoring the impedance curve because they assume a low output impedance amplifier -- much potential is lost bu making that assumption)
dave
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Thank you for the information, Dave and Scotty :thumb:
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Hello FastFred...
I just discovered this thread....
I can remember taking home thousand dollar cables to audition in the comfort of my home with a set of Mirage M1's floor standers of 180 lbs each...
Thinking of how much money I spent on these speakers surely they would sound so much better with some "real" speaker cables... :duh:
I remember sitting there for hours "straining" trying to hear the differences that would justify spending $1K or more for these cables...
An added benefit it that they looked GREAT!! and had some really neat sounding names....something like "Audio Dragon Super Fast Clear Hi-Impact You Really Can Hear It All Now Cables" by those who would willingly take your money... :duh:
They were at least 1" in diameter and reminded me of my water hose I use to wash the car with!!
And....I could get them in many colors as well!!!
Then one day a cable on the back of my beloved Mirage M1's came loose??? I unfastened the plate that had the speaker wire connectors on and looked inside of the speaker cabinent....
OMG.
What was in my kilobuck 180 pound each speaker cabinet...some crappy "small" gauge solid hookup wire with slip on connectors that werent even silver or gold!!!!
My world was turned up side down!!
How could these sound so good with such sub standard wiring....so lets see what we could do to make this better....
Lets, yes lets take apart the speaker and rewire it with some really BIG gauge wire of the appropriate "element". hmmm would that be copper, silver or gold?
Well I never did that....common sense prevailed....and the myth of high end speaker wire went up like a puff of smoke...
I never bought the high dollar cables....
My speaker wire store is just down the road, think its "lowes' or "home depot" or many 'monoprice"....
Great thread!!
All the best
Alex
:deadhorse:
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Why don't you guys just listen?
If a cable makes a significant difference in your system, that you don't have to strain to hear and you feel like
spending the money, buy it. If it doesn't, stick with what you have.
As for Adydula's experience, if you are straining to hear a diff with anything, you shouldn't buy it.
I think you all just like to argue...
:)
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I think you all just like to argue...
The understatement of the day! :wink:
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Excellent comment TonePub.
What was in my kilobuck 180 pound each speaker cabinet...some crappy "small" gauge solid hookup wire with slip on connectors that werent even silver or gold!!!!
Small guage is not a bad thing (connectors IMO are). I have had, and so have others, replacing the short run of cable inside the box with something skinner (and solid and maybe higher quality) and getting a readily audible improvement. When it comes to cable, context is important.
dave
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it is time to put this discussion/debate to bed. it is getting a bit to hard to take. everyone thinks they can make cables and many can but for the most part they are crap! all you junior engineers out there. since this is a MR section maybe we can get roger to chime in and tell us about the time he was asked by a certain cable manufacture(major) to review a white paper on cable design. the paper had more holes in it than a block of Swiss Cheese.
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I think you all just like to argue...
:)
Dreadfully sorry but I'm afraid you're mistaken.
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mistaken? how so?
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Tonepub...
Couldnt agree with you more....its just my experience....
Not just with cables, wires, interconnects etc its all the stuff...
If something makes the experience better and its affordable to me I would consider buying it etc..
Its actually quite funny watching several really serious guys trying to convince each other which was the better cable etc.
Aint technology great!!
Alex
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Sorry, I was reminded of the Monty Python skit where the fellow wishes to purchase an argument.
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Sorry, I was reminded of the Monty Python skit where the fellow wishes to purchase an argument.
No you weren't. :lol:
Monty Python's Argument Clinic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y).
To be far more on-topic, swapping speaker wires has the least amount of effect of any other cable set in my system. :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
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SteveFord
Volunteer
Quote
Sorry, I was reminded of the Monty Python skit where the fellow wishes to purchase an argument.
Logged
No you weren't. :lol:
Monty Python's Argument Clinic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y).
To be far more on-topic, swapping speaker wires has the least amount of effect of any other cable set in my system. :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
Hello Steve & Jerry: Just got home from an audiophool meeting (just a bunch of guys who meet on wednesday evenings here in Midwest Canada). Thanks for the humor.
I read with some amusement about the slew rate of speaker wire. I believe they got their information from the technical manual written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings.
There is a proper term describing this concept, which escapes me at this time, my friend Walter gave it to me today & I promptly forgot it. I will report back tomorrow with
this info.
........................ Fred Petersen (fastfred)
p.s. Steve how does one get to be a volunteer?
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Hello Steve & Jerry: Just got home from an audiophool meeting (just a bunch of guys who meet on wednesday evenings here in Midwest Canada). Thanks for the humor.
I read with some amusement about the slew rate of speaker wire. I believe they got their information from the technical manual written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings.
I believe the correcrt term is bod rate.
Hey man, I'm right here. I can read you. If you're going to be insulting, be man enough to do it to my face. :nono:
Considering nobody in the whole entire world can correlate measurements to what we hear in every case, you would do well to keep an open mind. Anyway, I find a lot of what you write pretty stupid too. Like bod rate... You mean baud rate right? :wink: The number of pulses per second, used as a measurement in digital systems? Yeah, I guess that's a much better theory than mine on why you might want larger gauge power and speaker cables. :duh:
By the way, if you DO have a theory on why larger gauge speaker or power cables might be preferred over smaller gauge, even if the smaller gauge is capable of handling the current requirements of the amplifier, I'd LOVE to hear it. :thumb:
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... in Midwest Canada
Saskatchewan?
dave
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Hey man, I'm right here. I can read you. If you're going to be insulting, be man enough to do it to my face. :nono:
Considering nobody in the whole entire world can correlate measurements to what we hear in every case, you would do well to keep an open mind. Anyway, I find a lot of what you write pretty stupid too. Like bod rate... You mean baud rate right? :wink: The number of pulses per second, used as a measurement in digital systems? Yeah, I guess that's a much better theory than mine on why you might want larger gauge power and speaker cables. :duh:
By the way, if you DO have a theory on why larger gauge speaker or power cables might be preferred over smaller gauge, even if the smaller gauge is capable of handling the current requirements of the amplifier, I'd LOVE to hear it. :thumb:
Arguing over theory is slightly interesting. but does not cover the fact that plenty of folks can hear a lot of differences.
Sure some of them may be bogus. But i doubt all are.
The largest problem with data, and science is it is limited to what we already think is important. Stuff we do not understand is just ignored. (the flat Earth problem)
Then the issue of double blind tests. Well, my take on that thorn is the problem with double blind testing is it asks a part of the brain, incapable OF making the fine distinctions, to make the judgement calls. So it sets itself up to fail.
The part of the brain which really can hear a difference is not to amenable to making rapid judgement calls.
It is more like love, or feelings. You cannot put them so easily into a numbered system. Same way, the part of our mind which does the conscious decisionmaking in DBTs is out of the loop of deep appreciation of music we go to when we actually are just listening to music.
Science guys always jump on the DBT as 'proof' all cables are the same. People with experience just listen to cables.
Since the twain will never agree. Who cares? I do not care if some guys think it is all hogwash, and I actually do laugh myself at some of the BS used to sell overpriced crazy stuff.
So I am sort of in the middle. Laughing at BOTH sides in this stupidest of all debates..
Since no one has to, or NOT to buy whatever.
All the attempt to 'win' the argument is window dressing, so some person can have more, or less status to his peers. Whether those peers are cable gurus, or EE PhDs
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Saskatchewan?
dave
Manitoba
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Hey man, I'm right here. I can read you. If you're going to be insulting, be man enough to do it to my face. :nono:
Considering nobody in the whole entire world can correlate measurements to what we hear in every case, you would do well to keep an open mind. Anyway, I find a lot of what you write pretty stupid too. Like bod rate... You mean baud rate right? :wink: The number of pulses per second, used as a measurement in digital systems? Yeah, I guess that's a much better theory than mine on why you might want larger gauge power and speaker cables. :duh:
By the way, if you DO have a theory on why larger gauge speaker or power cables might be preferred over smaller gauge, even if the smaller gauge is capable of handling the current requirements of the amplifier, I'd LOVE to hear it. :thumb:
Hello Dave:
Take what I said in context, you edited out the most important part of the post I quoted, which was about the Argument Skit from Monty Python. I believe on that post there's a link to that skit. If you're not familiar with it you should watch it. It's really funny. The reference to the technical manual written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings was a joke. It was really a novel she wrote called "The Yearling". There was a character in the book a black bear called "Old Slew Foot". This reference to the technical manual was intended in the same spirit as the Monty Python skit. I once aspired to write comedy, sorry if I made you frown.
............................ Fred Petersen (fastfred)
p.s. I actually prefer smaller gauge wire, in the experiment I've done with MAPLESHADE AUDIO GOLDEN HELIX I've determined that Kimber 4TC the most neutral sounding speaker wire in my system. I'll probably go with that in the future.
p.p.s. the word theory means " unproven or unproveable"
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Hello Dave:
p.p.s. the word theory means " unproven or unproveable"
I think in the science realm "theory" is as high as it gets. The idea of gravity is still a theory, not to mention relativity, evolution etc. There is no 'fact' in science, only theories.
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My "theory" is that all speaker wire sounds the same or does not have a sound....
I threw a few speaker wires in a room last night and they were totally silent???
Narry a sound!!
Must be defective!
Alex
:D
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I think in the science realm "theory" is as high as it gets. The idea of gravity is still a theory, not to mention relativity, evolution etc. There is no 'fact' in science, only theories.
Not true. Law is a step up from theory, and by the way gravity is a law not a theory.
Doc
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Double post
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double post
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That's the way life works. We observe things in our world and think we see a pattern and then draw conclusions based on those patterns, even though there may be unknown, true causes that are completely hidden from our detection that are the complete cause of what we observe.
Back to the 5 cable designers and their roundtable discussion points out that here we have 5 guys truly trying to solve the "cable mystery", all with completely different approaches. And I'm sure they all think they (individually) are all on the correct path, and their theories are sound (pun intended).
But the fact is, they may all have come to incorrect conclusions. We understand the basics, but at the sub-atomic level, in many cases, don't really have a handle on what is going on, nor how those behaviors affect matter/physics at courser levels.
While we all think we can hear a change, swapping out cables, there are so many factors involved from the equipment itself to weather conditions to audio memory, that many conclusions made on day one are reversed on day 2. I've done that myself.
So, the mysteries go on.......
Wayner
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Public Service Announcement time:
Not true. Law is a step up from theory, and by the way gravity is a law not a theory.
A Law serves a different purpose than a Theory in Science, it's not "a step up". A theory is NOT a "transitory law" or a "law in waiting". There is NO hierarchy being implied by scientists who use these words. That is, a law is neither "better than" nor "above" a theory.
- A Law in science refers primarily to What happens. E.g. A mathematical formula that let's you calculate what will happen when something else happens.
- A Theory primarily deals with Why and How something happens.
There is both a Law and Theory dealing with Gravity. The theory that explains why things fall is Einstein's Theory of General Relativity.
Side note: it is an unfortunate accident of language that the word "theory" is used in science for this purpose. This leads to those who have no science education or have forgotten what they might have learned in high school to think that a Theory in science is the same thing as the common loose use of the word theory, such as "in theory, a short run of more expensive wire passing the signal into my speaker should make the woofer sound better than my current adequately sized wire".
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I blame the nuns. Good at English, not so much science. :lol:
Doc
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Science guys always jump on the DBT as 'proof' all cables are the same.
And one must consider that the most widely touted DBT -- ABX -- is statistically incapable of proving 2 DUT are the same. If it proves 2 DUT are different it is a strong result thou.
dave
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So if you cant hear it...why does it matter???
Alex
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Wayner,
With that Roundtable I assume you mean the current issue of TAS?
What struck me is that the question regarding pricing wasn't asked of the designers. I guess that would be deemed impolite.
Fastfred,
A Volunteer is someone who is a Facilitator (or a Moderator, if you will) of a particular Circle. I do the Planar and now the Vintage Circles which keeps me off the streets.
If you have an idea for a particular Circle which isn't already covered you can put forth a proposal and see if it sinks or swims.
The person you would wish to speak with is JohnR.
FWIW, I can hear differences in speaker cable and settled on Kimbers as being the ones that work best in my systems. 4TC for MMGs, 8TC for 1.7s and I'm planning on upgrading to 12TC for the 3.7s.
The sonic differences in speaker cables are pretty apparent with Magnepans but I don't know if I could tell the difference with, say, my old JBLs.
The giant garden hose ones have been sold off long ago.
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Wayner,
With that Roundtable I assume you mean the current issue of TAS?
What struck me is that the question regarding pricing wasn't asked of the designers. I guess that would be deemed impolite.
Fastfred,
A Volunteer is someone who is a Facilitator (or a Moderator, if you will) of a particular Circle. I do the Planar and now the Vintage Circles which keeps me off the streets.
If you have an idea for a particular Circle which isn't already covered you can put forth a proposal and see if it sinks or swims.
The person you would wish to speak with is JohnR.
FWIW, I can hear differences in speaker cable and settled on Kimbers as being the ones that work best in my systems. 4TC for MMGs, 8TC for 1.7s and I'm planning on upgrading to 12TC for the 3.7s.
The sonic differences in speaker cables are pretty apparent with Magnepans but I don't know if I could tell the difference with, say, my old JBLs.
The giant garden hose ones have been sold off long ago.
Thanks for your response Steve. I haven't had a chance to check out the vintage circle yet. I just sorted out a ground problem in my Scott 299B a full monty rebuild.
Thanks again.
......................... Fred Petersen (fastfred)