AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: johnto on 22 Mar 2018, 02:33 pm
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Recently moved from 1.7 i to 3.7i keeping the same Parasound Halo 2.1 integrated . For some reason I am noticing a lot of harsh grainy sounding vocals especially during chorus singing on both lp's and CD's.
Music sounds great just having problems with voices.
Most of my listening is r&r. Some records sound fine but others are almost becoming unlistenable.
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How many hard/loud hours do you have on them?
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How many hard/loud hours do you have on them?
Exactly. They need 200 hours minimum. Just in case check that all connections are solid. Ya never know.
charles
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I have at least the 200 hours on them. I've tried with and without resistors and swapping speaker wires.
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Hmmm. Plan "B". Are speakers used ? maybe something is up there. Parasound is built like a tank and should not be issue however never know.
Both channels are harsh grainy ? Let's narrow this down.
charles
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Yes both channels. I did buy an almost new pair from a dealer. Wonder could they be too sensitive and showing over saturation in the recording process?
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Doubt it.
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OK then. The 3.7i tweeter is more revealing than the 1.7. The puzzle is that both LP and CD sound that way. Could you try a different amp ? If same occurs it is the speaker. Clean speaker inputs, check all connections and listen again.
Or it just could be the new speaker is just more revealing and exposing something else in the system. Can you switch out the IC or speaker cable ? We ned to try as much as possible to determine if speaker or ????
charles
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My guess is you might be hearing clipping from the integrated amp. Maggie’s are famous for being power hungry. By that, I mean stiff power supply’s and high current amps tend to sound better with them. Perhaps the 3.7 is a tricky load compared to the 1.7?
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What gauge speaker cable are you using? Doubt it is the problem but with my first pair of maggies I had el crapo 16g wire and a receiver. It had a harsh sound. Switched to 10g and all was well.
Does it sound harsh at low volumes or just at higher volumes, if so then the issue could be the amp running out of steam. Although, Parasound Halo gear usually is bullet proof. I own an A21. The integrated is lower power and current and may not be able to handle dips below 4 ohms well.
Consider taking your Integrated and DAC to the dealer and hook them up to a pair of 3.7's and see if they have the same issue. Then you will have your answer if it is your speakers or amp.
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I have owned Magnepan IIs, 3.6s, and now 20.7s
If you have any harshness on vocals it is probably a problem with the AC power supply.
(I would call digital, but if it is on LP too...
I would try to borrow a power conditioner and see if that clears up the problem.
IMO if you hear it on vocal, it is because you 'know' vocals better than instrument voicing.
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Hey everyone thanks for responding. Speaker cable's are 8 guage I did try an older monster cable I had with the same results. I will try to borrow another amp and see if anything changes.
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Generally with good quality equipment like you have, harshness in a Magneplanar midrange is either a big peak in the frequency response or high distortion. Don't waste your time with cables, power, and the like. Have you checked the frequency response? Confirmed that the amps aren't clipping on peaks?
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The Parasound will not run out of steam as it is 240W/ch into 4 Ohm. Speaker wires in phase ? Check please. Either your amp went bonkers all of a sudden [ which I doubt ] it just maybe the speaker itself. This should not happen by going up the model line. Makes no sense.
Everything was good before the new speaker. Was speaker ever repaired ?
charles
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As far as I know it was not repaired. I was told it was only used about 20 hrs before I purchased it. (Estate sale) have no reason to doubt store as it has an excellent reputation.
Will double check that everything is in phase .
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Could be a bad capacitor/resistor/inductor in the crossover?
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As far as I know it was not repaired. I was told it was only used about 20 hrs before I purchased it. (Estate sale) have no reason to doubt store as it has an excellent reputation.
Will double check that everything is in phase .
Cables? Phase? Break in? Parasound? We're barking up the wrong tree here
Have you contacted the dealer? returnable?
Ask to borrow an amp and if the situation is the same, its the 3.7s and ask for a refund.
These 3.7s could have been defective from day 1 for all we know
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How many hard/loud hours do you have on them?
Once again, Wind Chaser hits the nail. :thumb:
Grainy, edgy, lack of refinement, kazoo-like tone, that's the capacitors, probably series caps on high pass filter is the most offensive.
Film caps require a good amount of voltage to break in. You have to play them loud or they will never break in. Just 10 hours of very high volume will make a huge difference. Even 200 hours of playing Spandau Ballet at 80dB won't get 'er done. ;)
Loud means you need to go into the other room. You will not hurt anything if you stay below the speaker wattage rating. It may take a strong amp to sustain that much voltage for long enough to break in Maggies. It doesn't take that long to hear a difference. Play a few hard rock albums like that then listen for a change.
I recently bought used speakers, 3yo, I'm 3rd owner. They were still not broken in when I got them! Their high sensitivity makes them play loud enough (for civilized people) at 1/2W so they don't get turned up enough to break in the caps, and woofers. But they are designed to play very loud, and that's why I bought them, so after only about 10 hours of playing compressed rock about 50-75W (~110dB) they opened up tremendously, sounded much more relaxed, and all the edgy kazoo tone was gone.
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Lets see is Richidoo is correct
A call out to all 3.7i owners that purchased their speakers brand spanking new.
Have you experienced harsh, grainy vocals similar to what Johnto is experiencing during the first 200 hours??
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Emil,
Keep in mind there may be some 3.7i owners who’d tell you that Johnto’s speakers sound just fine. When it comes to perception, we don’t always agree with each other because we don’t all share the same point of reference, nor do we all perceive and hear the same. :wink:
Furthermore, I seriously doubt Johnto’s speakers are defective.
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Furthermore, I seriously doubt Johnto’s speakers are defective.
If that's the case, johnto is heading for a trip down the rabbit hole. Get the credit card out
The 3.7is may be exposing deficiencies in his system that the 1.7s were able to hide.
Its like buying a Ferrari with K Mart tires and wondering why you're spinning out in the turns.
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I had some doubts myself so I had a few audiophile friends over to listen to make sure it wasn't my aged ears and they heard the same on certain records and CD's.
Have more listening planned for tomorrow, will also take resistors out and replace with copper stranded wire.
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I'd get the "dealer" involved in a listening session. Sounds like something is defective.
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A call out to all 3.7i owners that purchased their speakers brand spanking new.
Have you experienced harsh, grainy vocals similar to what Johnto is experiencing during the first 200 hours??
No. What I did notice was the bass output wasn't as pronounced when new.
I do know that what sounds just fine on 1.7s sounds not so wonderful on 3.7s and what works with 3.7s isn't so great with 20.7s.
As you go up the food chain with the speakers any deficiencies with the rest of the equipment will be revealed.
Mine are 3.7s, not 3.7i's although I doubt that makes much of a difference as far as vocals.
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I had some doubts myself so I had a few audiophile friends over to listen to make sure it wasn't my aged ears and they heard the same on certain records and CD's.
Yeah - a lot of older recordings sound really harsh - especially at high levels. What about the best sounding recordings?
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For some reason I am noticing a lot of harsh grainy sounding vocals especially during chorus singing on both lp's and CD's.
Let's try a different source. I have the Chris Hillman album Bidin' My Time in 24/48, the vocals are definitely not harsh or grainy but crystal clear, almost analog. This album will be on everyone's demo list as soon as it is discovered and the best part is the music is terrific.
I can upload a cut from the album (your choice) to my server and then send you a link via PM. Download the .flac file then connect your laptop to the Parasound with a USB cable and play with the free Foobar 2000 (https://www.foobar2000.org/) (WASAPI output). If you have a Mac then someone else will have to help with a flac player.
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New Magnepans? I just got a new pair of 20.7s two weeks ago.
On some stuff the sound was a little not wonderful for particularly the end of week one. (the speakers had a problem which could be rectified, but was not OK), and I got a new pair today.
So I am on my second new pair after two weeks.
The sound is pretty good.
The main issue is loss of low level detail that two weeks cured..
And bass which is more one note and less defined. (but not bad bad.)
However I use big power conditioning. Have a great DAC, and use a separate glorified tube buffer. A VAC Standard I bought used.
All these things 'fix' digital grunge.
My take on the op problem is he has a new window into music which is more resolving than he used to have.
It is showing flaws in the rest of the setup.
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Thank you for the offer. I agree that Hillmans music is outstanding. Let me see if my grandson can do the download as I do not have a computer myself.
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How is speaker positioning? I'm assuming you have them in the same position as previous speakers, but these are a bit bigger. I had an issue that only showed itself on certain female vocal tracks where it sounded somewhat distorted if I sat perfect dead center. If I moved a few inches off center it sounded fine. I removed quite a bit of toe-in and the problem was solved and center fill remained strong.
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I agree with Mr. Ford. Moving up from the 1.7's to the 3.7's should not bring out harsh vocals. Magnepans are revealing and will let you know when your electronics or music is not on the same playing field as the speakers, but what sounded good on the 1.7's should sound good on the 3.7's. Removing the resistors should not make a difference. Something is wrong some where, either in the speakers, electronics or cables. The tweeters in the 3.7's are more revealing but they are smoother than the 1.7's.
I did audition the 3.7i's at a dealer and a friend of mine has a pair of 3.7's that I have heard on several occasions. And another friend has the 1.7's that I am very familiar with so I have a good idea how these sound with various gear.
By the way, I did find my Parasound A21 to have a bit of grain and fatigue with my 1.6's, MMG's and a friends pair of $14K Revel Salon 2's. I switched to a Pass Labs X250 and all was right in the world. My friend also ditched his A21 and went with a pair of Pass XA-100.5 monoblocks. I am not saying your Halo Int. is the problem but just something to think about in the future.
Hope you figure things out,
Larry
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I take it these are brand new.
Can you take them to your dealer and hook them up there? That will tell you if it's the speakers or one of your components.
Failing that, maybe they can loan you an amp/preamp/CD player for a day or two and you can isolate the problem that way.
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They were part of an estate sale dealer was handing only had about 18 hrs on them. Place of purchase is about 5 hrs drive and I would need a rental again to carry them. I'm wondering if there are just lots of bad vocal recordings out there as some things sound okay. Will keep listening for a bit and try to borrow another amplifier to see if anything changes.
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You can probably borrow a better amp without needing a van...
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The op has $6,000 speakers with a $2,500 combined preamp+DAC+amp.
When I bought my then new Magnepan 3.6 I also got a $5,000 amp, had a DAC retail was $1,000 when new, and a $5,000 preamp. Toss in a $3,500 power conditioner. Plus some good wires. (IMO the Magnepan speakers are that good, and as many before have stated, they clock in way above their price class)
With all that, I still noted enough harshness to decide I needed a tube buffer
I tried a $20 bit of junk. Tossed it as useless.
Went out and found a 'real' tube buffer, a VAC Standard, bought used for $1,500 (retail $4,500 but this one had an additional set of factory mods for another $1,500)
So that glorified tube buffer, yeah! it did the job of clearing up the annoying digital grunge for the most part. I still certainly could use a better DAC
What I am saying is the Magnepans are just letting the op know what is actually there from his electronics.
When he gets the sound from the 3.7i to be good.
He can upgrade to the 20.7 and not have any issues.
I know.
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After reading about the sound of your 20's I only wish I had the space and $ to make a jump in the future. Unfortunately I am limited to a 12 x 15 room which some said was even to small for the 3.7i.
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Just listened to George Harrison's great cd Brainwashed some cuts sound fine and some are so grainy as to be almost unlistenable. Tried to different cd players with same results.
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Do you have any pristine audiophile recordings? If so, try them and see how they sound
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Just listened to George Harrison's great cd Brainwashed...some are so grainy as to be almost unlistenable. Tried to different cd players with same results.
That's just George.
Are you using the optical or coaxial digital inputs from the CD players to the Halo? The DAC in the Parasound may be better. What are the CD players used and how are they connected?
The reason I suggested downloading a digital file is because it is a known excellent quality. Your phono needle may be worn or mistracking or the CD players electronics are not filtering out all the grunge.
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Where do you live? Often, having a trained listener walk in and hear your system can be helpful determining an issue.
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I live in the Boston MA area.
Have tried optical, coaxial and analog outputs from oppo 103 also have another dvd player I've tried.
My grandson has a MacBook I can try at some point.
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http://www.natural-sound.com/
This is your local Magnepan dealer.
Why not take a trip over there and give a listen to a pair and see if the sound is similar to what you're experiencing at home?
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Rule out that just one speaker is the problem: Try a mono recording using the left speaker and right speaker separately, with each speaker placed at the same place in the room. Do they sound the same?
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Noway,
That's a good point ... if on the off chance there is damage, chances are it is contained to one speaker. But given how few hours these have on them, I still maintain that they are far from being broken in.
Break in requires working them hard at high volumes for a long time. It took almost a full 100 hours for my speakers just to become tolerable. Prior to that I was very disappointed and unimpressed.
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Pink noise at loud volumes works great for break in of planars and ribbons. I try to not be in the house when I do it, or wear earphones/earplugs. It's less pleasant than using music to burn in the speakers, but faster.
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My experience with both new 3.6 back in 2010, and two pairs of 20.7s.
Break in is a bit noticeable, but certainly not a problem.
And there is absolutely no need to 'play so loud you need earplugs!
I just listen to music. And the music over a few days gets better. and becomes more enjoyable (toe tapping etc). Then after a few weeks it gets even better.
I have never owned stereo speakers which sounded 'bad' day one.
The worst piece of electronics sounding horrible was a Sony 100 disc changer. It SUCKED! I returned it the next day. Then a Sony digital preamp. That was a long time ago, and it took me half a year to realize it was a POS.
I also had a long pair of Hero 7 meter XLR cables that did sound bad day one. I thought I should return them, But after a few days they got a lot better.
And years later a pair of 7 meter Cardas Parsec which never resolved from lean, and I did return those.
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johnto
Gonna give it to you straight. Unfortunately, there is something wrong with those speakers.
You bought them used without the the ability to audition them. It's the risk we all take when doing so.
They may have only had 20 hours on them but that doesn't mean that could not have been damaged by the previous owner or even arrived that way from the factory ( just ask Elizabeth)
Consider selling them with the caveat and move on or make the trip to the local dealer. They should be able to help you if the 3.7s need to be sent back to magnepan.
Call them first. They might not be so accommodating since you didn't purchase from them.
Better yet, call magnepan. They may arrange it all for you.
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johnto
Gonna give it to you straight. Unfortunately, there is something wrong with those speakers.
You bought them used without the the ability to audition them. It's the risk we all take when doing so.
They may have only had 20 hours on them but that doesn't mean that could not have been damaged by the previous owner or even arrived that way from the factory ( just ask Elizabeth)
Consider selling them with the caveat and move on or make the trip to the local dealer. They should be able to help you if the 3.7s need to be sent back to magnepan.
Call them first. They might not be so accommodating since you didn't purchase from them.
Better yet, call magnepan. They may arrange it all for you.
What Emil said. ^^^^
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Sadly, I agree with Emil and TB. However, you won't know for sure until you try another amp. Certainly try on speaker at a time to see if it is only 1 speaker or channel. But give magnepan a call and see what they say.
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Trying to find a mono that sounds grainy. Beatles cd Pepper was that way in steteo but mono version sounded fine.
Also trying to give my ears a bit of a rest
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More listening completed. Also speaker placement changed and resistors installed some music sounds great but most of my beloved R&R vocals from the 60's and 70's still sound grainy maybe that's just the nature of the beast.
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Many classic rock recordings from the 60's sound grainy and distorted, including most of the Beatles albums -- George Martin wasn't known for a clean sound. And unfortunately the more revealing the speakers the more you'll hear the distortion. It's one case in which muddy dynamics can be better than ribbons and stats, since they hide the distortion and other artifacts.
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Played Elton John Tumbleweed Connection on lp and the sound was horrible.
I didn't have these problems with the 1.7 or 1.7i when playing the same music.
Anyone else in the Bosto area with these speakers like to do some listening to each others systems send a pm.
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I just tried listening to Tumbleweed Connection on my IVA's. Don't have the LP but there are two digital versions. The "remastered" one is horrible, ultra-compressed and overmodulated. The "deluxe addition" seems better but my impression is that it's a harsh recording -- the vocals are anything but clean. Listened to some samples from Sgt. Pepper, again digital. 2009 mono and original stereo release were both cleaner than the 2009 stereo remaster.
None of these are what I would call clean recordings, but neither were they offensive to listen to. Great if you can find someone in your area to listen, but I really think it's time to call Wendell Diller at Magnepan to see if he can help you out.
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Yes, pop music from the sixties or seventhties often sound harsh. Rolling Stones use to be bad sounding. The Animals is really bad. Now we have all these "remastered" albums, really a very big step backwords. Try out the remastered Paul Simon's "Graceland" or Michael Jackson's "Bad" or "Thriller". Originally, great recordings if you can find the earliest release on CD.
Have you seen Michael Fremer on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qHvOaUYwWQ
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Yes, pop music from the sixties or seventhties often sound harsh. Rolling Stones use to be bad sounding. The Animals is really bad. Now we have all these "remastered" albums, really a very big step backwords. Try out the remastered Paul Simon's "Graceland" or Michael Jackson's "Bad" or "Thriller". Originally, great recordings if you can find the earliest release on CD.
Have you seen Michael Fremer on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qHvOaUYwWQ
Great story, and Fremer tells it well.
Those remastered albums are awful, aren't they? Most of them, anyway.
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All of those recordings you mentioned are terrible. Before you call Magnepan you need some locals to help determine whether there's a problem with your speakers or your source material.
If someone here doesn't respond (you may want to start a new thread) pm me, I have a friend who I believe has some friends at the Boston Audio Society who may be able to help figure out where the problem is.
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One thing that you can try to help with harshness is insert a 1 ohm 12 watt resistor in place of the jumper for the tweeters. It can help tame the harshness at bit. I recommended it to a fellow Ac'er for his Magnepan 20 series speakers and he really liked what it did.
https://www.parts-express.com/mills-1-ohm-12w-non-inductive-resistor--005-1
I use Deulund resistors in my Magnepan 1.6's but also have tried and like the Mills. The Mills have a warmer more forgiving sound when it comes to bright or harsh music. For $10pr they are worth a shot.
Unfortunately as you move up the chain with higher end gear and its better detail and resolution, you will find that some of your music will be less enjoyable due to poor recording quality. It is the price you pay. Even Steve Guttenberg the Audiophile producer and reviewer for CNET has complained about this issue.
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I have a friend that's a professional musician that will make it over sometime and see what we can do.
Just finished Kinks Muswell Hill on lp again grainy and distorted on the high end but maybe another bad revording that shows up on good speakers.
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Did you ever make it over to your local Magnepan dealer to give a listen to a set of 3.7s there?
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I have a friend that's a professional musician that will make it over sometime and see what we can do.
Just finished Kinks Muswell Hill on lp again grainy and distorted on the high end but maybe another bad revording that shows up on good speakers.
I just listened to a couple of digitized versions on Tidal, one better than the other. This recording sounds tizzy on the IVA's. However, I'm thoroughly enjoying the record -- it isn't going to win any audiophile prizes, but neither should it be unpleasant to listen to.
You can try taming the recordings with EQ. Setup and component choices can also minimize the problem.
I think Steve's idea of listening to 3.7i's at a dealer's is great. And do call Wendell. The last thing a director of sales wants is a long thread about someone who's having trouble with his speakers. He can work with the dealers to solve your problem whereas all we can do without hearing the problem ourselves is to speculate.
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EQ is very helpful. Just a pity it it not widely available. I often use the equalizer within the Airfoil while streaming audio. Unfortunateley, loudness raced recordings cannot be corrected by any tool.
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I think that one of the biggest mistakes we ever made was eliminating tone controls. In a perfect world, maybe, but there are a lot of bad recordings out there and tone controls provide a quick way to make them more listenable.
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Apropos of this discussion, I just read some comments by Bob Katz that I think describe the issue we've been discussing:
"Yes, it's true that it's impossible to get one transducer that sounds great with all recordings, unless you EQ. However, my masters which are designed to sound great on the most accurate system, will translate to a wider variety of transducers and so you will need less EQ with a good, translatable master, when using any loudspeaker or headphone.
"There are ugly-sounding, bright, harsh pop recordings. You all know them. They sound "acceptable" on cheap systems because the cheap systems hide the high end hype. But that doesn't mean that you have to hype the high end in mastering in order to sound right on a cheap system. I've learned that is not necessary and self-defeating. The only reason the myth that you have to hype the high end perpetuates is because when A&R hear a master in the making that does not sound like the current crop, they get nervous and ask you to turn the high end up. But it's self-defeating, these bright and harsh, clipped recordings sound worse on the radio and worse in streaming as well. If I get caught having to make one (and I've had to make my share, because the customer is the boss) I've observed that they don't sound as good everywhere and they don't translate to the widest variety of playback systems.
[ . . . ]
"A related issue is that the monitoring quality many years ago was inferior to what is available today, consequently, many older recordings are much brighter than today's recordings. The tendency today (for better or worse) has drifted towards brighter monitors than many years ago. So if you look at the trend over 40 years or more, recordings have been getting warmer and less bright so that they sound good on these brighter loudspeakers."
Read more at https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-17-perfecting-perfection#uclxyYHCHlSvDLIg.99
Bob says in his column that he's found that a target curve that's flat to 1 kHz and then slopes down to - 6 dB at 20 kHz works well with the average recording. Note how extreme the downslope is! A downslope is always needed for two channel stereo.
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I called Magnepan yesterday and talked to Wendell, he thought my speakers and amp were fine and suggested I try 2 ohm resistors on the tweeters and some diffusers behind the speakers. I'll order some 1.5 resistors too.
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Sounds like a plan! Suggest you get non-inductive resistors like the Mills.
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I still wish there was someone around the Boston Ma or southern NH or RI area with the same speakers for some mutual listening.
I'm a little nervous about higher value resistors as I loved the 1.7 and 1.7i without for that nice high end.
Not knowing anything about resistors non inductive are better than ceramic that I asume are the kind with Maggie speakers? Is a 12 watt okay or should I stay with the 10 watt ?
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Give the Mills 1 ohm resistors a try. They are much better than the type Magnepan supplies which I found a little rough sounding compared to the Mills and Deulunds. I would not go any higher than 1.5 ohm, too much roll off. The Mills will definitely warm things up and give a smoother presentation. I has similar issues with my Mag 1.6's in my listening area which is all windows and wood floor. I tried various resistors and preferred the Mills and Deulunds. I ended up using the 1.2 ohm Deulund silver-carbons. Believe it or not, the Mills and Deulunds sound different.
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I still wish there was someone around the Boston Ma or southern NH or RI area with the same speakers for some mutual listening.
I'm a little nervous about higher value resistors as I loved the 1.7 and 1.7i without for that nice high end.
Not knowing anything about resistors non inductive are better than ceramic that I asume are the kind with Maggie speakers? Is a 12 watt okay or should I stay with the 10 watt ?
The Deulund carbons were on sale a few days back at Parts Connnexion, you might check them out. The most important thing is that these are all non-inductive unlike the wirewound resistors that Magnepan includes.
I disagree with Greyhound Fan on one particular -- I wouldn't hesitate to try the two watt resistors. The ones that sound right are going to depend on your room, if it's a bit bright, you're going to want larger resistors, and I'm inclined to try what Wendell says because he's had a lot more experience than any of us. Wattage can be higher, it won't affect the sound, it's only going lower that could be a problem.
You won't be destroying the high end. The worst that can happen is it will be a bit too rolled off for your liking and then you can put the 1.5's in. But remember that using the resistors doesn't mean there's anything wrong. Magnepan *expects* you to use the resistors, which is why they no longer ship the speakers with the jumpers installed. They were designed with enough of a range for rooms from bright to normal to dull and so the average room would use the middle resistor and a bright room would use a larger one, while a room with a lot of HF absorption (heavy drapes, furniture, carpets, etc.) would use the jumper.
It's been known for at least 50 years now that two channel stereo requires an HF rolloff -- the so-called house curve -- to sound right. The reason for this is that the ear doesn't respond as microphones do. The angle of stereo speakers corresponds to an HF boost in the ear's frequency response and also cardioid mics are forward facing which means you lose the ambiance which is lower in high frequencies, and close miking emphasizes highs because you don't have the natural HF attenuation of the air. And then you have producers boosting the highs to make records sound better on small speakers, etc. What it all amounts to is that you need a downsloped frequency response for a neutral tonal balance.
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The resistors basically decrease the tweeter output by about 1.5db per 1 ohm resistor if I remember correctly.
Each room is different but my room is a bright room with a lot of reflections and the tweeters on the 1.6's are not as smooth as the 3.7's for sure. I found 1.5ohm resistors to take too much away from cymbals but YMMV. If you go the Mills route, 2ohm resistors will too much IMO. But again, it will be trial and error.
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Before you try the resistors, try listening without the tweeters by removing the fuse. If you still hear harshness then it's not the tweeters.
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Thanks for the tip. I suppose just remiving the resistor would accomplish the same thing will give it a try.
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Good advice Josh,
The move away from user control over high and low frequencies was a loss for music lovers. That it happened as the industry moved away from analog was tragic indeed. I switched to a DSP controlled system because I listen to a wide variety of music now. Most often from net based streaming services.
No going back. Remote control of the frequency response is a luxury as important as climate control in the house. Temperatures vary beyond comfortable levels and so does recorded frequency response. Personally, I need to be able to tame both, in either direction.
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Sounds like a good idea. I haven't gotten that far. I'm moving to Acourate, but haven't used it yet because I'm in the process of replacing my midrange drivers. Eventually, I'd like to have some curves I can call up to deal with the more troublesome recordings.
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An alternative I use on my 20.7s is to make my own coil to use instead of a resistor.
I had the Al Sekela tweak 'chokes' and thought them to much on the 20.7/ (though I used the smaller 5502 choke on the tweeter of my previous 3.6 for many years and liked it)
So I tried to roll my own choke with a 1/4 inch wood dowel wrapped with 31 turns of Kimber 20 gauge wire I had laying around.
Held the ends tight with tiny zip ties. Then wrapped them with Teflon plumbers tape.
Stuck the creation in the tweeter attenuation spot on my 20.7 Just right.
Very little attenuation, yet the tweeters sound smoother
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I'm not a Maggie owner, but I wonder about something that hasn't been considered in this thread yet. What is the room like? Are you controlling first reflections and slap echo?
Moving to taller Maggies would mean tweeters are closer to the ceiling. Perhaps the speakers also have more extended treble response. Both those things could make the sound a lot more sensitive to room acoustics. And slap echo and first reflections can harden up the sound, make it more irritating and harsh.
In those cases, EQ (whether with a resistor, cables, or an EQ unit) will help, and it may be necessary also, but it doesn't get the the root of the acoustics problem.
Just a thought -- hope it helps!
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Waiting for 1.5 and 2.0 resistors to arrive in the mail.
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When I owned my M1.4? I had this exact issue. The diaphragm de-laminated. Did you take the fabric off and check the status of your speakers? Yes, it can happen to both sides simultaneously.
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I hope that is not an issue here as the speakers were almost new when I purchased have only been used about six months by me . I was told they had under 50 hrs when I purchased them.
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Delam shouldn't be a problem on speakers made in the last 15 years or so, since they adopted the new adhesive.
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Purchased 1.5 and 2.0 ohm resistors from Magnepan and just completed some listening, I felt these higher values sucked all the life out of my music, gone were the tambourine, cymbal rings and top end magic.
Maybe next will be consideration of a new amp.
Open to ideas.
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Wow, you really are having a hard time. Maybe you can arrange a loaner.
I *have* noticed that electronics can cause problems of this kind, in fact, I've had similar problems with IVA's ever since I got an Exasound e28. They sounded fine with every other converter I've used on them. And the problems are much more apparent with some amps than others.
But it's really hard to make these diagnoses at a distance.
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Try a 1.0 or 1.2ohm resistor. Does well with my 20.1s
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Purchased 1.5 and 2.0 ohm resistors from Magnepan and just completed some listening, I felt these higher values sucked all the life out of my music, gone were the tambourine, cymbal rings and top end magic.
Maybe next will be consideration of a new amp.
Open to ideas.
It does not surprise me that the higher values sucked all the life out of the music. That's why I recommended 1 to 1.2 ohm resistors, Mills and Deulund Carbon. These values do not take the life out of the music but take some high frequency edge off and tame sibilants. The Magnepan resistors are junk. I preferred the Deulund 1.2ohm over the 1.0 ohm. The difference was subtle but noticeable, especially with sibilants. The Mills sounded different and warmer. For $5 consider a 1 ohm Mills. The Deulunds are expensive, around $25 each.
https://www.parts-express.com/mills-1-ohm-12w-non-inductive-resistor--005-1
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-74958.html
I loaned Thunderbrick a pair of Mills and the 1ohm Deulunds to try with his 20.1's to try and tame some brightness. I believe he preferred and ended up with the Mills while I prefer the Deulunds.
The question I have for you is, did the resistors help with the grainy vocals? If so, it may be worth it to try these other resistors. Be aware that the Cement Magnepan resistors are rough sounding in comparison to the Mills and Deulunds.
Larry
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Maybe next will be consideration of a new amp.
Open to ideas.
Yes, after five months I'd try a different amp before I ditched the speakers.
If you're willing to cover shipping both ways, I'll send you an AVA Fet Valve Ultra 550 to run until you can make a better decision. Let me know. :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
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Has anyone recommended cleaning the connectors in the system?
The only time my system has been really grainy and flat is when the connectors were dirty. I cleaned the cable connections really well and the purity was back.
I wouldn't have believed it until I experienced it.
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I have cleaned them once a few months ago but think I am buying another amp so will take the time to do them again. Thanks for the recommendation.
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I would also agree with others who have suggested another amp. Magnepan encourages users of their speakers to use amps that double their output at 4 Ohms as compared to 8. You might be able to borrow an amp suggested by your dealer or one from a friend. I think that this type of trial will help you to clarify things.
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Yes I am currently considering a Pass 150 or Bryston 4b3.
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My bias would be for the Bryston. I favor separate amp-pre combinations.
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Rent a Uhaul truck for $40, drive the speakers to the dealer, hook them up at the dealer. Do they still sound harsh/grainy? If yes, then return/exchange them.
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Only problem is shop is 250 miles away and the persons car I borrowed no longer has it.
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Yes, you'll have to spend money on a Uhaul but that is a pretty cheap cost in order to get real, actual answers to your problems.
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Yes, you'll have to spend money on a Uhaul but that is a pretty cheap cost in order to get real, actual answers to your problems.
BRILLIANT !!!! Tha'ts why I like ya Tyson. Straight to the point.
charles
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BRILLIANT !!!! Tha'ts why I like ya Tyson. Straight to the point.
charles
Thanks :) I'd even suggest brining along the rest of the gear from Johnny's system in the Uhaul to the dealer. That way he can hear his speakers with the dealer equipment and with his own equipment.
Then, if the problem is his equipment and not the speakers, it's trivial to isolate exactly which piece of gear is problematic.
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Yes, you'll have to spend money on a Uhaul but that is a pretty cheap cost in order to get real, actual answers to your problems.
That's too much hassle and too time consuming. Why go to them when they will come to you? Invite them over for a nice steak dinner and a few beers.
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I pretty much agree with Tyson and everyone else who has suggested a proper troubleshooting of the speakers before spending another dime on anything ......including an amp.
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Well I did it over extended myself with a Pass 250.8 and XP10 pre and it seems to have taken care of 90% of my problem. What remains I attribute to bad 60's rock records.
The Hint was wonderful with the Maggie 1.7i but just wasn't the same with the 3.7 i.
The Pass has more drive, control and everything as it should at over 5X the cost.
I do miss the sub output and digital inputs on the Parasound Hint.
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Well I did it over extended myself with a Pass 250.8 and XP10 pre and it seems to have taken care of 90% of my problem. What remains I attribute to bad 60's rock records.
The Hint was wonderful with the Maggie 1.7i but just wasn't the same with the 3.7 i.
The Pass has more drive, control and everything as it should at over 5X the cost.
I do miss the sub output and digital inputs on the Parasound Hint.
First class! Glad you got it straightened out. And congrats on the pass!
One thing about speakers, the more revealing they are, the more you end up spending on electronics. :-(
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Truer words were never spoken.
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Well I did it over extended myself with a Pass 250.8 and XP10 pre and it seems to have taken care of 90% of my problem. What remains I attribute to bad 60's rock records.
The Hint was wonderful with the Maggie 1.7i but just wasn't the same with the 3.7 i.
The Pass has more drive, control and everything as it should at over 5X the cost.
I do miss the sub output and digital inputs on the Parasound Hint.
Congrats on the Pass gear. I love mine. It was a huge step up for me going from a Parasound A21 to a Pass X250 and a BAT preammp.
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Hope this is it I'm spent.
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Don't blame you. But look on the bright side -- you got some great gear you hadn't expected to! :-)
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I'm smiling and at my age it was now or never. Sometimes especially with a willing wife audio dreams do come true.
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Exactly. :-)
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One thing about speakers, the more revealing they are, the more you end up spending on electronics. :(
Yup - tell me about it. I did a whole thread here on it myself.
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I'm smiling and at my age it was now or never. Sometimes especially with a willing wife audio dreams do come true.
With a willing wife, many, many things are possible. Wish I had one :(
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I was wondering if johnto's wife had a sister.
I need a bigger house and some 20.7s again.
I've got the electrics covered so she'll get off easy!
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I was wondering if johnto's wife had a sister.
I need a bigger house and some 20.7s again.
I've got the electrics covered so she'll get off easy!
So perhaps a AC date site is in order? :lol:
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Everyone will want to marry Elizabeth.
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Happy 4th everyone 🎑.
And my wife will come in and say turn it up.
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Everyone will want to marry Elizabeth.
You would need to own (at minimum) a pair of MBL Radialstrahler mbl 101 X-treme, associated electronics to go with them....
and a house suitable for them to even get me to talk to you.....
Just call me gold digger.. or better yet, 'looking to upgrade'.
:o
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You're sure you wouldn't settle for a reconed pair of Dynaco A-25's?
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Looking to upgrade I like that.
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Elizabeth,
Don't forget to give their record collection a good look over.
You don't want to get stuck listening to disco under neath a mirror ball.
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You're sure you wouldn't settle for a reconed pair of Dynaco A-25's?
:lol: :lol: :lol: Ever the optimist I see!!!
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The true optimist would choose Bose 901's . . .
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The true optimist would choose Bose 901's . . .
...with bad hearing.