[hapinoregon]

Are single driver speakers limited to small groups/ensembles at moderate sound levels?

I've read glowing reports and reviews of single driver speakers for playing small combo jazz, chamber music, etc. Any comments on the suitability of single driver speakers that can handle gracefully and play musically Romantic classical symphonies at the sound level they require/demand? Opera? Choral works?

MTIA...

[FullRangeMan]

No prob if you use pro audio FR drivers and they are very affordable.
I unknow other solution to listen in hi spl.

[JLM]

Honestly most single driver designs are best suited for small ensembles, but a few can do symphonies/non deep organ chorals, with various qualifiers:

1.)  How deep do you want the bass to go?  (The vast majority are bass limited.)
2.)  How loud do you want to listen?   (Most have limited Xmax, so are power input/loudness output limited if they do bass.)
3.)  How big is the room you're listening in?  (Hard to generate a big sound in a small room, and a big room just makes it harder to play loud.)

Note that even two or three way designs struggle with symphonic reproduction (organ can go down to 16 Hz, piano to 32 Hz; peak sound pressure for symphonic levels is 105 dB; really big rooms can lose 6 dB or more from the rated speaker efficiency).  So with average efficiency speakers, say 88 dB/w/m, in a large room you'd need speakers capable of 16 Hz and able to handle 200 watts per channel.

Single driver design fans with large symphonic or choral goals in mind usually have to compromise the single driver ideal and run their amps directly into multiple subwoofers that crossover to the single driver main speakers, or give up the deep bass/ultimate loudness.

[richidoo]

Are single driver speakers limited to small groups/ensembles at moderate sound levels?

Yes.

I've read glowing reports and reviews of single driver speakers for playing small combo jazz, chamber music, etc. Any comments on the suitability of single driver speakers that can handle gracefully and play musically Romantic classical symphonies at the sound level they require/demand? Opera? Choral works?

No, they can't do it. They lack the dynamics, the bandwidth and the tonal refinement required by that type of music.

You'll want a quality 3 way speaker minimum, or 4-way for loud, 5-way for blow drying your hair with Voyevoda. 

[rajacat]

Large 2- way with distributed subs will do fine for big music. Five-ways have too many crossovers. Maggie 20's are 3 way and they're supposed to be great with orchestral music.

[Guy 13]

Honestly most single driver designs are best suited for small ensembles, but a few can do symphonies/non deep organ chorals, with various qualifiers:

1.)  How deep do you want the bass to go?  (The vast majority are bass limited.)
2.)  How loud do you want to listen?   (Most have limited Xmax, so are power input/loudness output limited if they do bass.)
3.)  How big is the room you're listening in?  (Hard to generate a big sound in a small room, and a big room just makes it harder to play loud.)

Note that even two or three way designs struggle with symphonic reproduction (organ can go down to 16 Hz, piano to 32 Hz; peak sound pressure for symphonic levels is 105 dB; really big rooms can lose 6 dB or more from the rated speaker efficiency).  So with average efficiency speakers, say 88 dB/w/m, in a large room you'd need speakers capable of 16 Hz and able to handle 200 watts per channel.

Single driver design fans with large symphonic or choral goals in mind usually have to compromise the single driver ideal and run their amps directly into multiple subwoofers that crossover to the single driver main speakers, or give up the deep bass/ultimate loudness.

+1 

Guy 13

[JLM]

Well, there is no perfect loudspeaker (and don't let anyone tell you differently).  Intelligent people make intelligent compromises based on available information and the best possible options.

I'm here because I'm a single driver speaker owner/lover of the concept, the coherent sound that non-single point sources just can't match, and midrange performance (that most acknowledge as being paramount) where single driver designs thrive.  There are some really powerful/dynamic single driver designs (Avantgarde for instance), that when coupled to appropriate bass generator (the extreme would be a garage sized concrete horn), will overwhelm any cabinet speaker.  But that's not practical in most cases, and still flawed.  One the other end are small single driver designs that can be easily held in your hand (such as Anthony Gallo Micro) that compromise bass, loudness, and dynamics but are inexpensive and lifestyle friendly.  So the concept can appear in a wide range of forms and is hard to stereotype.

Tonal qualifications are best left to the individual, but there are some really stellar extended range drivers (thinking of those using Alnico magnets).  Most folks don't know the loudness (sound pressure) levels or the frequency range they listen to.  I'm 58 and as is typical for my age, can't hear 15,000 Hz, so not interested in the other single driver concept compromise (large extended range driver with a super tweeter).  A simple Radio Shack spl meter or smartphone app can measure loudness, but most audiophiles do their serious listening at an average of around 80 dB, which is not challenging, until you want to hear Mahler at realistic peaks of 105 dB in a large room.  However to be painfully honest that sort of listening is rare for most due to space, budget, and domestic constraints.  Many years ago I had large 3-way speakers that I loved, but they were too big for whatever space I could afford as tearfully proven by a audition in a 160 seat chapel where they performed magnificently.  Now I listen in a 2,100 cubic foot audio designed man cave with reduced capacity speakers that fit the room much better.  So again we're back to making intelligent compromises.

Wrapping back to the single driver concept, I'd like to point out a few of the advantages.  First is the direct connection of each channel of amplification to each driver (what most term active design).  This results are greatly improved dynamics, ruler flat frequency/phase response, and incredibly extended bass.  Second is the lack of crossover that confuses phasing and robs power by masking the driver load from the amp.  Lastly I'll mention the economics.  At least half of the cost of a typical product goes into retailing cost (advertising, overhead, distribution, etc.) and then into the cabinet (veneering in particular).   What's left is about roughly 10% for drivers/crossovers and 10% for labor.  In a single $1,000 speaker that means the working bits typically cost $100.  In a 3-way design that works out to an average of $20 for each driver and crude/high powered crossover.  Build and sound quality of the speaker has to be compromised compared to a $100 extended range driver (that literally has no place to hide).  Keep in mind that many single driver speakers are offered through the cottage industry that has much less retailing cost.  For instance my speakers used a pair of $375 drivers in custom finished speakers that cost at the time $1500 per pair.

[mresseguie]

Now that is an exceptionally good presentation IMHO. It certainly gives me a better understanding of single driver speakers. Thanks, JLM.

[borism]

While I don't have single driver speakers the concept (thank you for explaining JLM) has always intrigued me. The possible drawback of some dynamic compression and limitation to the kind of music played seemed off-putting.
I wonder if one answer might be in Bipole/Dipole speakers (also offered by Omega). Technically, however, they are no longer single driver speakers.
Two full-range drivers offer a doubled driver area (to move air), increased sensitivity, and possibly better ability to handle dynamic peaks without compression. As a side, imaging is greatly improved. A negative might be the need to place speakers further out from the wall.
At one point, Louis was considering a Bipole using his 7" driver. I wonder if that is still in the works.

[FireGuy]

The possible drawback of some dynamic compression and limitation to the kind of music played seemed off-putting.

That was a concern of mine too while researching the Omega offering.  What was I giving up (with Louis' RS5 design) in regard to mid to sometimes higher SPL presentations?  Turns out [in my listening environment]...nothing.  These drivers shockingly deliver much higher sound levels than anticipated.  So for me there is no drawback.  Give Louis call, he can recommended a speaker design that could very well work for you. 

[JLM]

I like the idea of bi-pole as it keeps front and back waves in phase (like an omni-pole) and like most sound sources while using identical drivers without crossovers.  And as mentioned it doubles the power handling (always a good thing while allowing for doubling/halfing the impedance).  But I'd consider offsetting the drivers vertically to avoid back waves coming directly out of opposing drivers and to provide a degree of constant directivity (see Duke LeJeune's child board here at AC).

Not sure what the status of Omega's bi-pole offerings is.  His site only shows them lumped in with his 2014 "outlaws" (which I don't care for) and are all indicated as sold.  Maybe he's building bi-pole only upon request.  And it seems like Louis has scaled back on the number of small cabinet RS5 variants offered (which makes sense to me even though the two remaining ones are nearly the same size).  I had a hard time discerning from their circle how much power/how loud the Omega's would handle/go.  Haven't been in the market for speakers for a long time, but like most single driver designs, without presenting at shows, few reviews, limited market penetration, no dealers, and no trials it's hard to commit to Omega.  Glad it worked out for you FireGuy.

[milford3]

That was a concern of mine too while researching the Omega offering.  What was I giving up (with Louis' RS5 design) in regard to mid to sometimes higher SPL presentations?  Turns out [in my listening environment]...nothing.  These drivers shockingly deliver much higher sound levels than anticipated.  So for me there is no drawback.  Give Louis call, he can recommended a speaker design that could very well work for you.

Ditto on giving Louis a call.  He will work with you for as long as it takes.  I too was concerned about SPL's with single driver design.  But my Hoyt Bedford Type 1 deliver SPL's that are more than enough for my listening room.  Concert level SPL?  No.  But add a SET or push pull amp to any Omega speaker and you will be in heaven.

[rollo]

    The only issue not addressed is scale. Single driver speakers do and can have excellent tonality and less distortion. No argument there. they can create a 3D sound stage if on the recording as well. No crossover brilliant.
    However for classical the venue is in itself large and dynamic. When you hear a speaker that creates a large sound stage it is difficult to match that. As JLM stated there are trade offs with every design however for me scale reminds me of a real venue, not just the tonality.
    I own several speakers: Omega, Pipedreams, Snell EIV , Paradigm and Heco Hoern [ german ], prviously owned Maggie 3A, Mirage M3Si, Dalquist 10A and Lenehan.
    As a side note every speaker used benefited with the use of a sub except the Mirage.


charles

[JLM]

Charles, have you noticed the problem of scale with larger single driver speakers (of varying types)?  Not arguing with your observation one bit, but I haven't noticed it with open baffle, larger drivers (8 inch for instance), or woofer/subwoofer assisted (as per this circle's guidelines) single driver designs.

[roymail]

FullRangeMan, you stated above..."No prob if you use pro audio FR drivers and they are very affordable."

Are there any pro audio FR drivers/designs that actually sound generally acceptable to most music?  Thanks!

[mike j]

I can't speak as technical as a lot of folks do, but I'll just say that, to me, a good full range sounds fantastic with a LOT of different music. I'd recommend a Mark Audio driver. Although it wouldn't be PURE full range, you can always add a sub. I run a pair of Frugalhorns with a Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 in each. I use a small sub to fill in the bottom end. I have nothing but praise for them.
Mike

http://www.markaudio.com/Plans/itemlist/category/22-Alpair-7-Gold

http://www.frugal-horn.com/fh3-plans.html

[JLM]

FullRangeMan, you stated above..."No prob if you use pro audio FR drivers and they are very affordable."

Are there any pro audio FR drivers/designs that actually sound generally acceptable to most music?  Thanks!

I'd like to read FRM's follow-up to that too.

There are many different definitions of "full range" (7 octaves is what is used in this circle, but at what frequency drop off or loss of dispersion?).  For larger "full rangers" the issue of whizzer cones (effectively a second driver connected to the woofer via a mechanical crossover) seldom comes up.  So by our own definition a 12 inch driver capable of 80 - 10,000 Hz (+/- 10 dB) and a whizzer is perfectly acceptable (and was well respected as a full ranger 60 years ago).  Would you consider that "generally acceptable for most music"?

Search "SoundonSound," articles, reviews, "Spotlight: Secondary Monitors".  Sound on Sound is a professional e-mag for studio (recording/mixing) professionals.  Their perspective is that the whole single driver concept for playback is flawed for serious listening.  But they do like coaxial designs, maybe that is what FRM had in mind.  Parts Express has 28 coaxial drivers listed starting at $30.  Again, would you guess that would be "generally acceptable for most music"?

Agree with mike j, the Mark Audio Alpair 7 is a good driver (F3 = 50 Hz, 4 inch diameter, about 90 dB/w/m, handles 20 watts).  Works well in a variety of cabinets.  Just ran into Mark Felton at Axpona, what a class act.  Dave at Planet 10 sells tested/matched/treated versions of several "full range" drivers for improved sound, but doubles the price. 

[FullRangeMan]

FullRangeMan, you stated above..."No prob if you use pro audio FR drivers and they are very affordable."

Are there any pro audio FR drivers/designs that actually sound generally acceptable to most music?  Thanks!

For the little I know at the moment in this pro area, I would suggest the Spanish coaxial Beyma 8BX/N as one way direct, not used in two way.
It have a huge bass response w/a well stuffed enclousure, not need a sub.
http://www.beyma.com/getpdf.php?pid=8BX/N
Iam using the smaller brother 5MP60/N (not coaxial)that is specified tyl 12Khz.
The bass is just right w/one driver as I use, but more stuffing inside the box will increased the bass.
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%205MP60n-1.htm
I sure there is other brands in the market I unaware.